MH17 plane crash: Ukraine rebels hand over black boxes

[webfact]

MH17 plane crash: Ukraine rebels hand over black boxes

DONETSK: -- Rebels in eastern Ukraine have handed over two flight-data recorders from the downed MH17 plane to Malaysian experts.

A senior rebel leader signed them over to the Malaysian officials at a meeting in the city of Donetsk.

The handover came hours after the UN Security Council voted unanimously to demand immediate international access to the crash site.

The Malaysian Airlines passenger jet crashed last Thursday, killing all 298 people on board.

Western nations say there is growing evidence that flight MH17 was hit by a Russian-supplied missile fired by rebels, but Russia has suggested Ukrainian government forces are to blame.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28413467


-- BBC 2014-07-22

[Briggsy]

The order must have come from Moscow. Rather surprising turn of events unless they deliberately damaged them first. Maybe the Kremlin has decided to create the impression of some distance between itself and the Ukrainian pro-Russian militias. Or maybe the Kremlin will do some good old Stalinist purging of the rebel groups.

[siampolee]

An interesting turn of events, we are told ''Black Boxes'' are totally secure, that being the case the facts that emerge might be very interesting as to who, what and when in matters concerning this barbaric murderous act.

Or in truth the Russians are involved in a massive disinformation campaign with regards to the true Russian involvement in the matter.

Why haven't the Russians arrested or detained those rebels on the murder site ground who have Russian support?

No doubt a tale of missing in action will arise along the lines of a Joe Stalin opponents pistol induced heart attack scenario.

Dead men can't talk can they?

[lovetotravel]

An interesting turn of events, we are told ''Black Boxes'' are totally secure, that being the case the facts that emerge might be very interesting as to who, what and when in matters concerning this barbaric murderous act.

Or in truth the Russians are involved in a massive disinformation campaign with regards to the true Russian involvement in the matter.

Why haven't the Russians arrested or detained those rebels on the murder site ground who have Russian support?

No doubt a tale of missing in action will arise along the lines of a Joe Stalin opponents pistol induced heart attack scenario.

Dead men can't talk can they?

The black boxes are not secure and can be tampered with. It's not easy, but can be done. With that being said, the proof will be with the investigators on the ground. Finding missile fragments, impact patterns on the plane, and of course the data the US has on the origination of the missile and it's trajectory.

They've done the best they can to sanitize the crime scene. Not much more they can do, so I guess they'll start allowing professionals to take over?

[lostsoul49]

Almost all of the Ukraine military hardware is Russian made.

So why do they keep bringing it up?

This actually just goes to prove that it could have been equally the Ukraine government attempting to ignite a war between Russia and a huge western coalition...... Which they are.

Edited July 22, 2014 by lostsoul49

[lovetotravel]

Almost all of the Ukraine military hardware is Russian made.

So why do they keep bringing it up?

This actually just goes to prove that it could have been equally the Ukraine government attempting to ignite a war between Russia and a huge western coalition...... Which they are.

Possible. But not in this case. The missile launch was detected well within rebel held territory. Impossible for the Ukraine army to sneak in and fire a rocket. Plus, there was their admission on Twitter, several downed planes in the exact same area by them recently, etc.

The Western coalition for sure does not want a war. They just want Russia to leave Ukraine alone. Pretty simple.

[gabruce]

An interesting turn of events, we are told ''Black Boxes'' are totally secure, that being the case the facts that emerge might be very interesting as to who, what and when in matters concerning this barbaric murderous act.

Or in truth the Russians are involved in a massive disinformation campaign with regards to the true Russian involvement in the matter.

Why haven't the Russians arrested or detained those rebels on the murder site ground who have Russian support?

No doubt a tale of missing in action will arise along the lines of a Joe Stalin opponents pistol induced heart attack scenario.

Dead men can't talk can they?

I can see it now. Russian sends in troops to the Ukraine to capture and arrest the ukraine rebels. Headlines galore about the Russians invading Ukraine for real. I think your scenario of Russia invading the Ukraine to capture rebels is essentially impossible and utterly unlikely.

[umbanda]

Too much speculation about who did it, Ukranians, Russians,????. What's the difference?.The plane was flying in a war zone. Bud luck?...If a plane landing in Syria, Irak, Afganistan, Lybia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Jerusalem, and many other places is shot down by one of the portable missil launchers the US Governemt gave to now called "revolutionary" groups.,.. even to the Bin Laden group during the Afgan war with Russia....where the blame goes???

[Pralaad]

Almost all of the Ukraine military hardware is Russian made.

So why do they keep bringing it up?

This actually just goes to prove that it could have been equally the Ukraine government attempting to ignite a war between Russia and a huge western coalition...... Which they are.

Possible. But not in this case. The missile launch was detected well within rebel held territory. Impossible for the Ukraine army to sneak in and fire a rocket. Plus, there was their admission on Twitter, several downed planes in the exact same area by them recently, etc.

The Western coalition for sure does not want a war. They just want Russia to leave Ukraine alone. Pretty simple.

Not several but 2, one being helicopter, other flying at visible altitude .

Furthermore when Russia and US called for truce to investigate, Ukraine intensified the bombardment much surprise to the world , but convienently over looked.

Then another little confusing fact.

Western media stated body's have been recovered by the rebels , but in video footage, those carrying the bodies dressed in Ukrainian uniform( if you recall the footage, men wearing navy overalls with Ukraine services written on the back) rebels do not wear navy overalls and do not wear Ukrainian uniforms

Edited July 22, 2014 by Pralaad

[alant]

An interesting turn of events, we are told ''Black Boxes'' are totally secure, that being the case the facts that emerge might be very interesting as to who, what and when in matters concerning this barbaric murderous act.

Or in truth the Russians are involved in a massive disinformation campaign with regards to the true Russian involvement in the matter.

Why haven't the Russians arrested or detained those rebels on the murder site ground who have Russian support?

No doubt a tale of missing in action will arise along the lines of a Joe Stalin opponents pistol induced heart attack scenario.

Dead men can't talk can they?

The black boxes are not secure and can be tampered with. It's not easy, but can be done. With that being said, the proof will be with the investigators on the ground. Finding missile fragments, impact patterns on the plane, and of course the data the US has on the origination of the missile and it's trajectory.

They've done the best they can to sanitize the crime scene. Not much more they can do, so I guess they'll start allowing professionals to take over?

The data the US have on the missile, I want to see that, where can I? A link would be great. Thanks

[Pralaad]

Here is another latest update.

The recording posted by Ukraine allegedly rebels discussing it is a fake .

On the day of the tragedy Ukraine was moving its BUK systems.

Russia and Holland agreed to work together , while Ukraine does not want to provide answers to movement of BUK on the day.

Make of it what you will

[dutchisaan]

Here is another latest update.

The recording posted by Ukraine allegedly rebels discussing it is a fake .

On the day of the tragedy Ukraine was moving its BUK systems.

Russia and Holland agreed to work together , while Ukraine does not want to provide answers to movement of BUK on the day.

Make of it what you will

Russia only agreed to start using its influence on the seperists after many calls from other worldleaders.

Prime minister Rutte, from The Netherlands called Putin 3 times in 24 hours and demanded! that he have to do something.

I think you have to start to watch a little more than only Russian broadcast.

They showed on Russian television pictures of OSBE members, looking at the crash site. There commentarry, voiceover, was that they could look at everything.

If you look at the samevideo footage, a little bit longer, on other media outlets you see that they didn't get the room to work and where even told to get lost.

So keep believing what ever you read in the Russian press, you only fool yourself.

And please explain why the self proclaimed republic of donetz is led by 2 Russians? Or is this a lie to?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[connda]

An interesting turn of events, we are told ''Black Boxes'' are totally secure, that being the case the facts that emerge might be very interesting as to who, what and when in matters concerning this barbaric murderous act.

Or in truth the Russians are involved in a massive disinformation campaign with regards to the true Russian involvement in the matter.

Why haven't the Russians arrested or detained those rebels on the murder site ground who have Russian support?

No doubt a tale of missing in action will arise along the lines of a Joe Stalin opponents pistol induced heart attack scenario.

Dead men can't talk can they?

The black boxes are not secure and can be tampered with. It's not easy, but can be done. With that being said, the proof will be with the investigators on the ground. Finding missile fragments, impact patterns on the plane, and of course the data the US has on the origination of the missile and it's trajectory.

They've done the best they can to sanitize the crime scene. Not much more they can do, so I guess they'll start allowing professionals to take over?

The data the US have on the missile, I want to see that, where can I? A link would be great. Thanks

You'd have to file a FOIA, wait a few months, and then wait to get the rejection letter stating that the information can not be released due to national security. Lol

[connda]

"Among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages."

--Samuel Johnson (1758)

[Basil B]

Pity they do not have GPS trackers fitted, they would tell an interesting story...

If the finger print them I bet they could find Putin's prints all over them.

[HughJass]

seems to me its the Russians who are doing their best to provide help and information whilst the west just wants to start a war based on no substantiated evidence whatsoever so far

10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash

http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/

[GentlemanJim]

Observing the psychology of the finger pointing is fascinating. To be really honest, despite my dislike of Putin and what is going on in Ukraine, I really have no idea who pulled the trigger. Who supplied the kit is irrelevant. The Ukranians have Buk, the Russians have Buk the rebels probably have Buk, they are all Bukked out, and now we even have the Vietnamese sending Buk through the post !! To whom I wonder.

The information that WE are being given from sat imagery is inconclusive. Saying the missile was fired from rebel held territory is not enough in an area where some villages have Ukranians on one side and rebels on the other, all taking pot shots at each other. The Buk is a highly mobile piece of equipment, Drive anywhere, brakes on, ready to go in 5 mins, fire, pack up and sod off somewhere else quick.

I would like to jump all over Putin and have asked myself why I am not having the vein bursting, expletive ridden reactions some members are having to want to see Putin hanging by the neck, and I have now rationalized why. Throughout my life I have seen so many occasions where the UK and US Government have lied through their teeth and been engaged in false flag operations. Where do you even start? Tonkin, USS Liberty you can go back to the Spanish - American War, Pearl Habour, Operation Northwoods, Bay of Pigs, Iran, Bush, Blair etc etc there are lots. Seriously when I look back I am unsure of how many times the UK and US Governments have actually told the truth, so now we may have a bit of 'The boy who cried wolf', because frankly whatever comes out of the mouths of almost all UK and US politicians, I just automatically do not believe it now - and I have good reason not to believe them.

I hope whoever is responsible for the downing of MH 17 and the murder of all the innocent men women and children on that aircraft swings by the goollies until dead, but for once I would really like us to get the right man. If that is Putin then cool, but lets apply a bit of scientific objectivity here. Take in ALL the data as if all parties are suspect and ignore anything from the mouth of a politician, who ever they are as their job is to make any other side look bad. The fact rebels wouldn't let anyone on the crash site is not proof, they are in a war, right or wrong, and will not give up hard fought territory easily. We NEED to know who did it and they must be punished severely no matter who they are. Finger pointing when we really have no idea is futile and counter-productive. We know Putin is an ass , but there are countless US and European politicians to benchmark him against, to determine that they are all ass'. The world needs a bit of honesty right now, it is long over due.

Edited July 22, 2014 by GentlemanJim

[Credo]

Whereas Mother Russia is and has been the epitome of honesty.

[GentlemanJim]

Whereas Mother Russia is and has been the epitome of honesty.

You are reinforcing my point precisely. They are all as dishonest as each other, but you seem to imply that because Russia is dishonest then the rest are honest. Are you unable to understand the games that Governments play with people. WE need to know the truth. Our respective nationality and patriotic ties are irrelevant, we simply need to know the truth and if you can't get that without putting some stupid roll on the floor smiley in your post then simply don't reply.

[Chicog]

Almost all of the Ukraine military hardware is Russian made.

So why do they keep bringing it up?

This actually just goes to prove that it could have been equally the Ukraine government attempting to ignite a war between Russia and a huge western coalition...... Which they are.

Possible. But not in this case. The missile launch was detected well within rebel held territory. Impossible for the Ukraine army to sneak in and fire a rocket. Plus, there was their admission on Twitter, several downed planes in the exact same area by them recently, etc.

The Western coalition for sure does not want a war. They just want Russia to leave Ukraine alone. Pretty simple.

Yeah right...

..and you just returned from deep inside the war zone and can confirm that.

Ron Paul has just taken the side of Russia in this one...for what it's worth.

They will not report (the western media..Ed) that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians. They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack,"

Ron Paul?

Not worth a lot. He's like the chief spokesman for the Alcan Headgear association. Must be due a turn on the Alex Jones show.

[khunken]

Whereas Mother Russia is and has been the epitome of honesty.

You are reinforcing my point precisely. They are all as dishonest as each other, but you seem to imply that because Russia is dishonest then the rest are honest. Are you unable to understand the games that Governments play with people. WE need to know the truth. Our respective nationality and patriotic ties are irrelevant, we simply need to know the truth and if you can't get that without putting some stupid roll on the floor smiley in your post then simply don't reply.

Totally agree.

The (western) media if full of Russia this, Russia that when the proven details have yet to emerge. My take so far is that the missile was most likely fired by a group of rebels, having 'acquired' (by overrunning an Ukrainian military post) the missile launcher & missiles.

Russia has voted with the rest of the Security Council to allow unrestricted access to the site for a proper investigation. The apparent attempt to portray Russia as totally in control of the rebels is just more propaganda.

As you said, if Putin's fingers are on the missile firing, he & Russia should be appropriately punished and ostracised. If Russians were involved in helping the rebels to fire the missile, punish them. But let's wait for something better than finger-pointing as 'proof'.

[lovetotravel]

An interesting turn of events, we are told ''Black Boxes'' are totally secure, that being the case the facts that emerge might be very interesting as to who, what and when in matters concerning this barbaric murderous act.

Or in truth the Russians are involved in a massive disinformation campaign with regards to the true Russian involvement in the matter.

Why haven't the Russians arrested or detained those rebels on the murder site ground who have Russian support?

No doubt a tale of missing in action will arise along the lines of a Joe Stalin opponents pistol induced heart attack scenario.

Dead men can't talk can they?

The black boxes are not secure and can be tampered with. It's not easy, but can be done. With that being said, the proof will be with the investigators on the ground. Finding missile fragments, impact patterns on the plane, and of course the data the US has on the origination of the missile and it's trajectory.

They've done the best they can to sanitize the crime scene. Not much more they can do, so I guess they'll start allowing professionals to take over?

The data the US have on the missile, I want to see that, where can I? A link would be great. Thanks

You'd have to file a FOIA, wait a few months, and then wait to get the rejection letter stating that the information can not be released due to national security. Lol

Yes, it's currently classified information. Every country has classified information. The US probably more than any other. But, if you want to understand HOW they detected the missile, here's an explanation:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/07/how-us-satellites-pinpointed-source-of-missile-that-shot-down-airliner/

And if you want a news article discussing it, try this. There are many:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/evidence-of-russian-involvement-comes-to-light-in-hunt-for-mh17-truth/story-fni0fiyv-1226996687832?nk=0df46d9d2a186093dc0a5262cf120a9d

[lovetotravel]

Whereas Mother Russia is and has been the epitome of honesty.

You are reinforcing my point precisely. They are all as dishonest as each other, but you seem to imply that because Russia is dishonest then the rest are honest. Are you unable to understand the games that Governments play with people. WE need to know the truth. Our respective nationality and patriotic ties are irrelevant, we simply need to know the truth and if you can't get that without putting some stupid roll on the floor smiley in your post then simply don't reply.

Totally agree.

The (western) media if full of Russia this, Russia that when the proven details have yet to emerge. My take so far is that the missile was most likely fired by a group of rebels, having 'acquired' (by overrunning an Ukrainian military post) the missile launcher & missiles.

Russia has voted with the rest of the Security Council to allow unrestricted access to the site for a proper investigation. The apparent attempt to portray Russia as totally in control of the rebels is just more propaganda.

As you said, if Putin's fingers are on the missile firing, he & Russia should be appropriately punished and ostracised. If Russians were involved in helping the rebels to fire the missile, punish them. But let's wait for something better than finger-pointing as 'proof'.

If the Australian PM is saying this, with all the intelligence he has (and we don't), I'd say it's pretty accurate. Putin may not have pushed the button, but he's involved:

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/david-cameron-russia-must-stop-arming-training-separatists-in-ukraines-east-356967.html?flavour=full

David Cameron: Russia must stop arming, training separatists in Ukraine's east

......

We must establish the full facts of what happened. But the growing weight of evidence points to a clear conclusion: that flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area.

If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them.

We must turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action. Action to find those who committed this crime and bring them to justice. But this goes much wider than justice.

.......

[khunken]

You are reinforcing my point precisely. They are all as dishonest as each other, but you seem to imply that because Russia is dishonest then the rest are honest. Are you unable to understand the games that Governments play with people. WE need to know the truth. Our respective nationality and patriotic ties are irrelevant, we simply need to know the truth and if you can't get that without putting some stupid roll on the floor smiley in your post then simply don't reply.

Totally agree.

The (western) media if full of Russia this, Russia that when the proven details have yet to emerge. My take so far is that the missile was most likely fired by a group of rebels, having 'acquired' (by overrunning an Ukrainian military post) the missile launcher & missiles.

Russia has voted with the rest of the Security Council to allow unrestricted access to the site for a proper investigation. The apparent attempt to portray Russia as totally in control of the rebels is just more propaganda.

As you said, if Putin's fingers are on the missile firing, he & Russia should be appropriately punished and ostracised. If Russians were involved in helping the rebels to fire the missile, punish them. But let's wait for something better than finger-pointing as 'proof'.

If the Australian PM is saying this, with all the intelligence he has (and we don't), I'd say it's pretty accurate. Putin may not have pushed the button, but he's involved:

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/david-cameron-russia-must-stop-arming-training-separatists-in-ukraines-east-356967.html?flavour=full

David Cameron: Russia must stop arming, training separatists in Ukraine's east

......

We must establish the full facts of what happened. But the growing weight of evidence points to a clear conclusion: that flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area.

If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them.

We must turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action. Action to find those who committed this crime and bring them to justice. But this goes much wider than justice.

.......

Nothing but finger-pointing and a total lie from Cameron. The Heraldsun article was a typical short-on-fact, long-on-innuendo article.

Russia did not destablise the Ukraine. The EU did with considerable US prodding. They supported the opposition to overthrow the previous Ukraine government - using some very questionable 'protestors' and an Ukrainian oligarch leader has now been installed without the support of all Ukrainians. Russia has reacted to the attempt to suppress the views of (ethnic) Russian speakers in the Ukraine.

Note that I'm not in any way claiming that Russia is a totally innocent party. If, they are proven to have been involved in the MH17 disaster (& I'm not ruling it out) then punish them severly. What I am saying is that the totally one-sided media & big-mouthed 'leaders' accusations are pure unproven finger-pointing - there's a distinct lack of balance at work here.

[F430murci]

Almost all of the Ukraine military hardware is Russian made.

So why do they keep bringing it up?

This actually just goes to prove that it could have been equally the Ukraine government attempting to ignite a war between Russia and a huge western coalition...... Which they are.

Possible. But not in this case. The missile launch was detected well within rebel held territory. Impossible for the Ukraine army to sneak in and fire a rocket. Plus, there was their admission on Twitter, several downed planes in the exact same area by them recently, etc.

The Western coalition for sure does not want a war. They just want Russia to leave Ukraine alone. Pretty simple.

Yeah right...

..and you just returned from deep inside the war zone and can confirm that.

Ron Paul has just taken the side of Russia in this one...for what it's worth.

They will not report (the western media..Ed) that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians. They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack,"

??? Ron Paul actually said:

“Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. The real point is, it's very difficult to get accurate information so everybody engages in propaganda. At this point it would be unwise to say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it. Is it so hard to simply demand a real investigation?”

Not sure how that is taking Russia's side and it is amazing how people find a way to take pot shots at the "West" or the US even in something like this.

[Pralaad]

Almost all of the Ukraine military hardware is Russian made.

So why do they keep bringing it up?

This actually just goes to prove that it could have been equally the Ukraine government attempting to ignite a war between Russia and a huge western coalition...... Which they are.

Possible. But not in this case. The missile launch was detected well within rebel held territory. Impossible for the Ukraine army to sneak in and fire a rocket. Plus, there was their admission on Twitter, several downed planes in the exact same area by them recently, etc.

The Western coalition for sure does not want a war. They just want Russia to leave Ukraine alone. Pretty simple.

Yeah right...

..and you just returned from deep inside the war zone and can confirm that.

Ron Paul has just taken the side of Russia in this one...for what it's worth.

They will not report (the western media..Ed) that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians. They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack,"

??? Ron Paul actually said:

“Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. The real point is, it's very difficult to get accurate information so everybody engages in propaganda. At this point it would be unwise to say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it. Is it so hard to simply demand a real investigation?”

Not sure how that is taking Russia's side and it is amazing how people find a way to take pot shots at the "West" or the US even in something like this.

Just minutes ago.

US Intel BELIEVES rebels shot down plane by mistake however US Intel is NOW saying Russian government was NOT involved.

I wonder if US administration along with Oz PM will issue an official formal apology to PutIn and Russia

[lovetotravel]

Just minutes ago.

US Intel BELIEVES rebels shot down plane by mistake however US Intel is NOW saying Russian government was NOT involved.

I wonder if US administration along with Oz PM will issue an official formal apology to PutIn and Russia

Unless you have an eyewitness come forward, the world will never know who actually "pushed" the button. The US is saying it can't verify who "pushed" the button. But they are still saying Russia is heavily involved with the rebels, including supplying them with weapons of war. Too much evidence showing their involvement. Maybe they didn't actually push the button, but they are involved in this. At the very least, the Russians trained the rebels as this system is way too sophisticated to operation without training, and without a full set of trained operators.

The US is NOT saying Russia was not involved. They are saying they are not sure who pushed the button. Get your facts straight.

Facts:

Missile from the ground shot down the plane, and from within rebel held territory. No way it was one controlled by the Ukraine's army. Impossible for them to fight their way into rebel held territory and fight their way back out again. Impossible.

Great analysis, including showing the launch site of the missile, right near the Russian border. Take a look around 1:45. It's satellite photos showing buildups of Russian armor at the Ukraine border.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/07/22/tsr-dnt-starr-evidence-of-missile-mh17.cnn.html

But yes, the US is definitely saying the shoot down was probably a mistake by the operators of the missile system.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0722/632484-mh17/

Although the United States had observed a flow of heavy weapons, including air defence systems, into Ukraine from Russia, intelligence agencies had not seen the larger SA-11 missiles being moved into the country before the airliner was downed, officials said.

The Russian military had been training the rebels at a large base in Rostov on various weapons, including air defence systems.

But US officials said there was no explicit evidence of the Russians training the separatists on the SA-11 missile batteries.

So no actual evidence of this....yet....

[capcc76]

Yeah right...

..and you just returned from deep inside the war zone and can confirm that.

Ron Paul has just taken the side of Russia in this one...for what it's worth.

They will not report (the western media..Ed) that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians. They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack,"

??? Ron Paul actually said:

Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. The real point is, it's very difficult to get accurate information so everybody engages in propaganda. At this point it would be unwise to say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it. Is it so hard to simply demand a real investigation?

Not sure how that is taking Russia's side and it is amazing how people find a way to take pot shots at the "West" or the US even in something like this.

Just minutes ago.

US Intel BELIEVES rebels shot down plane by mistake however US Intel is NOW saying Russian government was NOT involved.

I wonder if US administration along with Oz PM will issue an official formal apology to PutIn and Russia

??? "NOT involved" or did they say:

Instead, the intelligence officials were just saying that we dont know if Russians pulled the trigger, one administration official said. That doesnt absolve Russia.

There is a difference . . .

BTW, looks like US media and officials are actually being honest here contrary to a lot of comments on here.

Edited July 23, 2014 by capcc76

[capcc76]

There Are Many Parallels Between The MH17 Crash And When Russia Shot Down A Civilian Airliner In 1983

In the aftermath of Korean Air 007, Soviet officials initially refused to admit the incident had even happened. Marshal Nikolai Ogarchov even insisted it was a "false flag" operation by the Americans, who he alleged had painted the 747 to look like a military RC-135, according to Ambinder.

As if to repeat this Soviet play from 1983, Strelkov on Friday suggested MH17 was a "false flag" operation by Ukraine, saying that many of the victims had died days before the plane had taken off, according to The Washington Times.

In the days since MH17 has gone down roughly 25 miles from Donetsk, Ukraine, pro-Russian militants have attempted to scrub their social media postings and videos and have blocked investigators from accessing the crash site.

http://www.businessinsider.com/ussr-shootdown-korean-air-2014-7

[Scott]

There are probably quite a few sources, but this is a link to the one on yahoo:

http://news.yahoo.com/us-no-evidence-direct-russian-plane-210210006--politics.html