Lpg & Ngv Fuel.

[FrancoThai]

Hi,

Is there any members that had converted a Ford Escape V6 to LPG ?

I have done it last January with the most reputable installer in Thailand, SCG. Total cost about THB 6x,xxx full option.

After the installation, when I switch to use the regular benzine, the car idle time to time ( can not accelerate for a short period of time ). I went back to SCG many times and they said it is due to the benzine installation on the car not due to their lpg installation.

When I went back to my regular Ford garage, they refused to check the matter saying that I have to deal with the lpg installer !

I have been told to go to an other Ford garage that have experience in resolving such engine problem located in Sukhumvit Soi 60 or 62.

Did some of you had this kind of problem with lpg installation and how did you fixed the problem ?

Thank you for your input.

[halim]

hi guys, i just found out there are actually 3 different types of LPG systems here in Thailand. Its called Fix Mixer (Open Loop), Fix Mixer + Lambda Control (Open Loop) and The Sequential Injection System. I understand about the Injection system, but can anyone explain to me the actual difference between the Fix Mixer and Fix Mixer + Lambda control? I tried to find an answer on google, but it all came back in Thai language. And the English answer doesn't make any sense. Thanks in advance.

OK, I'll give it a try...

Fix mixer design is a device with a venturi-like hole where through the air on its way to the cylinders passes. inheritant to the design, at a certain point in the "air" tunnel, the passing airflow will create a vacuum/under pressure. in this area of the fix mixer, you will see one or more little holes in the inner wall, there the gas will be mixed into the airflow... the under pressure will suction the gas from the regulator.

Plain fix mixer: a device that is mounted on your existing carburetor and depending on the under pressure will release gas into the cylinder-air-intake, under pressure is created when you apply force to the accelerator, thus by opening the carburetor vane increase airflow into the cylinders. These mixers are installed on older cars that have no Lambda censor.

Fix Mixer with Lambda control: same principle but because the modern cars have a lambda censor feedback that will regulate the fuel-air mixture, the fix mixer needs to be able to apply the same regulating signal to the gas flow.

These apply to non-injection type engines, thus standard carburetors.

However apparently fix mixers are also offered to be installed on injector type engines, it will work, since it is also adding the gas to the airflow, but not very economical, and if the engine is in a mediocre condition, driving will not be exiting.

Modern injection engines performance and behavior is fully controlled by ECU's, if one or more cylinders are not performing equally, ECU's will try to compensate by adjusting fuel mix and ignition timing, just to make the engine run smooth. With a fixed mixer, the ECU has no ability to control the fuel mixture on each cylinder separately.

thanks sysmaster. so now i got to choose which system to use on my altis, fix mixer with lambda control (cheaper but not really economical) or injection (more expensive but i got the most out of the lpg)

[FrancoThai]

If someone knows about the idle problem when using benzine after lpg installation, please advise. Thank you.

[Zillion]

If someone knows about the idle problem when using benzine after lpg installation, please advise. Thank you.

if there are no idling problems when you are using LPG then there should be no problems when you are using benzene. when the system changes to benzene, the ECU for the LPG kit would have been bypassed or turned off which means that the car is running on it's original instruments/sensors. If you are still facing idling problems on benzene this usually means the FORD's internal ECU is not working correctly or has a faulty instrument somewhere.

Ford should be able to check this up or retune the ECU if this is the case. as it is only an idling problem.

[sysmaster]

If someone knows about the idle problem when using benzine after lpg installation, please advise. Thank you.

if there are no idling problems when you are using LPG then there should be no problems when you are using benzene. when the system changes to benzene, the ECU for the LPG kit would have been bypassed or turned off which means that the car is running on it's original instruments/sensors. If you are still facing idling problems on benzene this usually means the FORD's internal ECU is not working correctly or has a faulty instrument somewhere.

Ford should be able to check this up or retune the ECU if this is the case. as it is only an idling problem.

To a certain extend the above statement is correct....

Running in gasoline mode should not be different from before the installation of the LPG system.

But if the car's ECU is malfunctioning, the problem would also occur in LPG mode, since the car's ECU is driving the LPG ECU, not vice-versa. (of course there can be related reasons... see at the end)

the LPG ECU is feeding the original injector signals "through" its electronics to the gasoline injectors.

In LPG mode, the signal to the fuel injectors is interrupted and used as trigger signal to fire the LPG injectors. In gasoline mode the signal is fed through without alterations.

To achieve this, the original wiring to the fuel injectors is connected to the LPG ECU, and an extra set of matching connectors is coming from the LPG ECU to the fuel injectors.

Certain brands of LPG systems come with proper wiring and matching connectors, others require that the original wiring is cut and re-soldered/connected to the original connectors.

The second option is prone to cause trouble when the installer is a bit sloppy.

All the connections have to be crimped or soldered, a typical Thai "Scott-tape" solution does not survive the harsh conditions in the engine compartment.

If the "feed-through/divert" electronics/wiring are not functioning perfectly, it might well be possible that the fuel mode gets in trouble, this because the firing signal to the fuel injector is not coming though clean or strong enough.

To this point, not all LPG ECU units fit all cars... originally I wanted a Autogas LPG system in my car, but the installer advised me to use a BSD system because the Autogas ECU could not handle the low voltage injector signal from the car's ECU properly. How far his statement is true I don't know, but the BSD unit is performing perfectly and was a tad cheaper, so fine with me.

As to the rough idling on fuel... this could very well be caused by a minor malfunction in the LPG ECU or faulty wiring. when running idle the injector firing signals are the shortest of them all, the little spike has to reach the injector on time and with enough power to open the injector. While driving or revving up the engine, the firing signal is no longer a spike but a square wave with more electrical energy.

That FORD is not willingly to check the problem is understandable, the idle problem only occurred after the LPG installation, thus logically something went wrong during the LPG modification.

As to solve the problem.... check out the other FORD garage and have a serious talk with your gas installer. Whatever excuse he has... the problem only started after the LPG system was installed.

And a very simple test (under the condition that your LPG system is a connector type installation, not "cut-wire"), restore the original fuel injector connections, and see if you have the same problem....

Good Luck,

SM...

end: it is possible that there always was an idle problem, but not detectable in the original wiring configuration. By adding extra wiring, the original malfunction is amplified and noticeable. The gas installer may have noticed it, and to make sure it does not affect his GAS system, adjusted the idle timings in the LPG ECU, thus compensating for the error.

Edited August 29, 2008 by sysmaster

[sysmaster]

hi guys, i just found out there are actually 3 different types of LPG systems here in Thailand. Its called Fix Mixer (Open Loop), Fix Mixer + Lambda Control (Open Loop) and The Sequential Injection System. I understand about the Injection system, but can anyone explain to me the actual difference between the Fix Mixer and Fix Mixer + Lambda control? I tried to find an answer on google, but it all came back in Thai language. And the English answer doesn't make any sense. Thanks in advance.

OK, I'll give it a try...

Fix mixer design is a device with a venturi-like hole where through the air on its way to the cylinders passes. inheritant to the design, at a certain point in the "air" tunnel, the passing airflow will create a vacuum/under pressure. in this area of the fix mixer, you will see one or more little holes in the inner wall, there the gas will be mixed into the airflow... the under pressure will suction the gas from the regulator.

Plain fix mixer: a device that is mounted on your existing carburetor and depending on the under pressure will release gas into the cylinder-air-intake, under pressure is created when you apply force to the accelerator, thus by opening the carburetor vane increase airflow into the cylinders. These mixers are installed on older cars that have no Lambda censor.

Fix Mixer with Lambda control: same principle but because the modern cars have a lambda censor feedback that will regulate the fuel-air mixture, the fix mixer needs to be able to apply the same regulating signal to the gas flow.

These apply to non-injection type engines, thus standard carburetors.

However apparently fix mixers are also offered to be installed on injector type engines, it will work, since it is also adding the gas to the airflow, but not very economical, and if the engine is in a mediocre condition, driving will not be exiting.

Modern injection engines performance and behavior is fully controlled by ECU's, if one or more cylinders are not performing equally, ECU's will try to compensate by adjusting fuel mix and ignition timing, just to make the engine run smooth. With a fixed mixer, the ECU has no ability to control the fuel mixture on each cylinder separately.

thanks sysmaster. so now i got to choose which system to use on my altis, fix mixer with lambda control (cheaper but not really economical) or injection (more expensive but i got the most out of the lpg)

The math will drive your choice, the non economical fixed mixer will continuously eat your wallet contents.....

[halim]

just want to report in guys. had my altis fixed with lpg injection system last week. got it done at a shop on ramkamhaeng road (near NASA VEGAS hotel) and so far the result is satisfying. going back for tuning end of this week and will give an update later on.

[tukae]

I live in the south and NGV are available everywhere now , also near towns at all PTT stations even till the borders. I wish there's a production car or truck for full NGV, I'll buy them for sure but to modified I'm least convince about safety and reliability. Biodiesel are equally as expensive as diesel and could get more expensive if world really demand, and the facts that it's sharing our food, causing fertilizer to get expensive thus affect other crops, mass clearing of rainforest driving animal kingdoms to their early ends. This oil tree bear no wood so there'll not even a primary forest left soon afterwards, gone are all the wildlife species, all in one package into your fuel tank just to keep you driving. See for yourself and think of our children.

luckyboy

Tata Motors now produces a Xenon dedicated NGV pickup. I took one for a test drive today in Chiang Mai. 100litre tank and 240km range. Comes standard with extracab and high clearance.

[tukae]

For those of you in Chiang Mai with NGV, a new high pressure filling station will open in a couple of weeks on Charoen Muang Road, opposite Thai Farmers Bank. The sales staff at Tata Motors told me this. They sell a Xenon pickup which comes standard with NGV. Price 520,000 baht.

[oMega69]

Hi Guys.. so whats the latest on LPG / NGV . . , 2011 now . . . . .

[MoonRiverOasis]

Hi Guys.. so whats the latest on LPG / NGV . . , 2011 now . . . . .

Many more NGV stations now, and all have been upgraded to high-speed filling.

Gov't subsidies for CNG (NGV) continue, with prices locked at 8.5 Baht/KG since 2005.

Govt' subsidies for LPG continue under a cloud of doubt, given that the subsidies are intended for domestic energy use, not transportation.

All taxis in TH now NGV.

All BKK public busses now NGV.

Most of the bigger transport companies have modified their articulated HGV's to NGV.

Many more models now available with Factory NGV (Chev Aveo, Mitsu Lancer, Toyota Altis, Mitsu Triton, TATA Xenon, Chev Colorado). None with factory LPG anymore.

NGV 100% domestic produced, LPG production supported by imports.

It would appear the future is NGV in TH..

[aussiebebe]

I agree that the future looks to be NGV, there is certainly the political will to see it become established in Thailand.

LPG was promoted strongly for transportation back in 2007-8 when fuel prices rose and since that time we've seen Thailand move from its position as an LPG exporter to it's present position as an importer which is unsustainable long-term given the subsidies. LPG is subsidised to one third of it's market value while NGV is sold at two thirds market value. Given that a Kilo of LPG gives lower mileage when used as a motor fuel compared with a litre of gasoline or gasohol, LPG would have only environmental, not financial benefits as a transportation fuel if it was sold at it's market value and no-one would use it.

[WarpSpeed]

I agree that the future looks to be NGV, there is certainly the political will to see it become established in Thailand.

LPG was promoted strongly for transportation back in 2007-8 when fuel prices rose and since that time we've seen Thailand move from its position as an LPG exporter to it's present position as an importer which is unsustainable long-term given the subsidies. LPG is subsidised to one third of it's market value while NGV is sold at two thirds market value. Given that a Kilo of LPG gives lower mileage when used as a motor fuel compared with a litre of gasoline or gasohol, LPG would have only environmental, not financial benefits as a transportation fuel if it was sold at it's market value and no-one would use it.

Beg to differ but as an LPG car owner and on my second one it most certainly does have significant financial benefits even it it's in the short term and the CNG does not get as good mileage as the LPG either significantly reducing your entire KPK....

[oMega69]

So if it cost me 42k THB to install the LPG Multi injection kit . . .

And i use a 240hp Turbo car . . , and drive about 8000km per year . ,

Will i do any saving insteed of using E10 " gasohol 91 " . . . etc . . E20 . . . . .

maybe take me 2yrs to start saving cash . .,

Edited May 6, 2011 by oMega69

[culicine]

So if it cost me 42k THB to install the LPG Multi injection kit . . .

And i use a 240hp Turbo car . . , and drive about 8000km per year . ,

Will i do any saving insteed of using E10 " gasohol 91 " . . . etc . . E20 . . . . .

maybe take me 2yrs to start saving cash . .,

It will depend on your fuel consumption, what petrol you now use and mileage. 8000kms a year is not much at all so it's going to take some to recover your investment. I worked out that if converted my car (honda civic), would get the money back in 8 months running only on gas (but I do 25000 km a year). So you are looking at least 2.5 years, if your consumption was the same as mine (you probably use more though).

[wandrinstar]

I'm not too ken, the conversion specialist has buggered up his Benz from the Computer getting muddled and overheating, plus round here in Central the Ques are terrible,eventually they will up the price,they have done it with Diesel as soon as it became popular.I was paying 11 Bht a Litre when i first had a truck..Those gas tanks are heavy ,why not Alloy.?..Up to You. To early round here.

[aussiebebe]

The government will start to gradually float the price of LPG this July for the industrial sector, not domestic supplies. Does anyone know how this will affect LPG fuel prices and when?

[katabeachbum]

Interested in running CNG. On a recent road trip I stopped by 3 large CNG pumps to check, 2 in Isarn and one just north of Chumporn.

Prices varied up to 10.34 baht

All 3 had long ques to fill up CNG, the one in Chumporn que was according to the 2 last 18 wheelers waiting usually 3-4 hours mid day.

Not my cup of tea yet

[aussiebebe]

That's interesting, I thought NGV was capped at 8.5. It seems that LPG for transportation will gradually rise and this may in turn see greater NGV demand inflating the price.

[katabeachbum]

That's interesting, I thought NGV was capped at 8.5. It seems that LPG for transportation will gradually rise and this may in turn see greater NGV demand inflating the price.

I assume 8,50 baht is max bkk price. It is very expensive to transport CNG, and assume the 10,34 baht price is due to transportation. Still find prices ok, but not the ques to fill up. Altis gains 100kg when CNG equipped, and still range is less than 250km. Then spend hours in que to fill up.