More than 50 Israeli reservists refuse to fight

[japsportscarmad]

A pussy pass????

[japsportscarmad]

 

Israel is a democracy.
Political dissent is allowed.
 
 
It's not quite so easy for Palestinian to say NO to Hamas:
 
http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2014/07/24/cnn-tonight-two-men-with-different-views-on-hamas.cnn&video_referrer=
 
Starting a bit after minute 3.

 
If Israel is a democracy why aren't Israeli Arabs allowed to serve in the army and marry who they like?
 
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.590228
 

Israel is a democracy in name only. Kudos to these soldiers for refusing to take part in this slaughter of civilians, but they will now have to watch their backs. If this article is anything to go by political dissent is allowed providing the dissident is prepared to be shot at by the IDF, threatened with physical violence on a daily basis etc etc.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html
 
Here is a clip showing what happens when a dissident in the Knesset tries to condemn Israeli slaughter of civilians, he is physically removed from the debating chamber on the orders of the deputy speaker, Moshe Feiglin. Who moments later urges Netanyahu to cut off power to Gaza dialysis patients. The deputy speaker of the Knesset!! Not some isolated fundamentalist settler. No wonder Israel is rapidly becoming a pariah state in the eyes of the majority of the civilised world, with people like him in powerful political positions.
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/cut-power-gaza-dialysis-patients-knesset-deputy-speaker-urges
 

Stop This torrent you must be wrong ? it must be a democracy AMERICA Says so !! :-)))))))))

[Ulysses G.]

Stop This torrent you must be wrong ? it must be a democracy AMERICA Says so !!

Arab soldiers ARE allowed to serve in the army - that is a lie - and Jews have the same marital restrictions that Arab Israelis do. Israel certainly is FAR more democratic than any other country in the whole region. 

Edited July 26, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

This is just the tip of what most Jews know and think, but the voice of the Jewish majority are silenced by the powerful Political Zionist (as opposed to Religious Zionist) minority. We need to help the Jewish people liberate themselves from the Political Zionists who are bringing nothing but hatred and condemnation upon them.

 

People like Naomi Wolf, Gideon Levy are more famous examples of Jews who speak their minds - I'm hopeful that there are many more who will come forward now that the Zionist Genocide Machine is out 'mowing the lawn"

 

Jewish !=  Zionist

 

50 reserve soldiers, most of them women, most of them non-combatant, and most were not even called for duty.

Unless I am much mistaken the author of the letter and the leader of the group lives in New York.

Not exactly a tip of anything. There is actually a lot of support for the IDF this time among Israelis and reserve soldiers.

 

Not sure that most Jews serve in the IDF, and not sure what voice is silenced, exactly? Seems like they got a headline.

There is something of this sort almost every time Israel is on the war path, usually it doesn't get the numbers or support

to change anything. In the same way, parties which are decidedly pro-peace, left wing do not necessarily fare well in

elections.

 

May I suggest that your notions about Zionism, its internal divisions, contemporary forms and meaning, lack in depth and

understanding? I am quite sure most Israelis will need a bit of mental effort to see how your description fits reality.

 

Gideon Levy, while I appreciate his guts and dedication, is far from being objective and is pretty much the definition of

fringe left wing when it comes to Israeli politics. Not agreeing with everything he writes does not mean that some of it

is not spot on, though.

 

Genocide is just another word too freely tossed about. There were more people killed in Syria the past week than there

were during all of the current clashes in the Gaza Strip.

[Morch]

as for the original post, great news perhaps slowly but surely an anti.war and anti miltary group will gain strength and will eventually hold.enuf power to change things in Isreal.

 

Doubtful this would have any effect by itself.

There were similar petitions and letters and groups in the past, practically on any of the IDF major operations since 1982.

There were certain achievements related to anti-war, pro-peace movements, but by and large, it can be said that the peace

camp in Israel took quite a blow after the second intifada and Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip. Hard to stick with the old

peace and love routine when the other side does not always play along.

 

Not saying that all is lost, just that "eventually" might be very far off in the future.

[Morch]

50 Israel's with a conscience? More than I expected. God's chosen people indeed.  

 

Wouldn't expect any less from someone toting a 2+2=5 signature....

 

 

[Morch]

This is just an example that not all Israelis are bloodthirsty warmongerers. There is at least one organisation in Israel (can't remember the name) that seeks peace and opposes the oppression of the Palestinians.

 

It's the Netanyahus, Sharons & their right-wing supporters who are the ones responsible for numerous atrocities against the Palestinians, not only in Palestine too.

 

There are actually many such organizations.

The are parties dedicated to peace as their main political platform.

The previous president of Israel was a man of peace.

 

It does not make everyone serving in the IDF a right wing supporter, or even a bloodthirsty warmongers.

Many of those that serve in the IDF, still vote for left wing and pro-peace parties. Reality a bit more complicated than

black and white formulations. Sharon is dead, btw.
 

[Morch]

 

This is just the tip of what most Jews know and think, but the voice of the Jewish majority are silenced by the powerful Political Zionist (as opposed to Religious Zionist) minority. We need to help the Jewish people liberate themselves from the Political Zionists who are bringing nothing but hatred and condemnation upon them.
 
People like Naomi Wolf, Gideon Levy are more famous examples of Jews who speak their minds - I'm hopeful that there are many more who will come forward now that the Zionist Genocide Machine is out 'mowing the lawn"
 
Jewish !=  Zionist

Yes. I am Jewish, and I cannot even discuss my opposing views with my Jewish friends in the US, without them doubting my "loyalty". I am called a Jew hater, and anti Zionist, and whatever other labels they can think of. Talk about thin skinned! Since when is dialogue discouraged? No dissent allowed? If I am sympathizing with the oppression of the Palestinians, I am somehow branded a traitor? I am starting the think this reeks of fascism, or something far more heinous. It certainly does not resemble anything related to a democratic point of view, nor an open, free debate of the merits. Israel tries to silence anyone speaking out against the party line.


Spidermike
Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

How is this group being "silenced"?

What party line would that be? There are quite a few of them in Israel.
 

[Morch]

After what has just occured at the UN school I think there will now be a lot more Israelis protesing , also intensive pressure on Israel from the US administration.
Appalling loss of life , massive propaganda boost for Hamas , fillup for every Anti Western Islamist group worldwide and for the Ultras in Israel who dont want peace at any cost.
Its an absolute tragedy and surely a sign that things must change , everybody has to learn to get along with each other.

 

Well, it's a bit absurd presently. They can't hold demonstrations as long as rockets are launched.

Had to cut short their biggest demonstration yet, as Hamas chose to wave the ceasefire extension.

Not that many people came, anyway.

 

There's also groups of right wing protestors, many times violent, which come in order to clash with

the stop the war crowd. Police is supposed to be neutral, but generally not too heavy handed with

the right wingers so far, unless someone pokes an eye (figure of speech).

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

What restrictions / punishments, if any, are there for Israeli citizens who refuse call up?

 

Technically, one could get imprisoned following a trial (military court). Don't recall for how long, but most cases seem

to be pretty short term, sometimes cut short when the media losses interest.

But generally, the IDF learned not to waste energy on these cases - it's a no win situation, and bad media coverage.

There are cases of people getting imprisoned, but most do not - it does seem at times that the one refusing actually

wants the attention and opts for that.

 

Note that dodging calls for reserve duty, under normal circumstances carry lighter punishments (if any) and are less

frowned upon by the public. Reserve duty called under emergency situations is different - refusal carries heavier

consequences in these cases, but again - not many end up in prison. On the other hand, not many outright refuse

and make a big deal out of it. People can wiggle their way out if they want without making a point.

 

[Morch]

If a person is a reservist, then I would guess that they are not a pacifist.   

 

Well, maybe not in the strict sense.

But bear in mind most of the IDF soldiers are drafted for compulsory service at the age of 18, and discharged at 20-21.

There isn't much choice about being assigned to be a reserve duty soldier, part and parcel of being enlisted in the first

place.

 

So people can develop their pacifist stance afterwards, while still being technically reserve duty soldiers.

 

[siampolee]

A conscientious objector (CO) is an "individual who has claimed the right to refuse to perform military service" on the grounds of freedom of thought, conscience, and/or religion.^] In general, conscientious objector status is only considered in the context of militaryconscription and is not applicable to volunteer military forces.

In some countries, conscientious objectors are assigned to an alternative civilian service as a substitute for conscription or military service. Some conscientious objectors consider themselves pacifist, non-interventionist, non-resistant, or antimilitarist.

The international definition of conscientious objection officially broadened on March 8, 1995 when the United Nations Commission on Human Rights resolution 1995/83 stated that "persons performing military service should not be excluded from the right to have conscientious objections to military service." That definition was re-affirmed in 1998, when the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights document called "Conscientious objection to military service, United Nations Commission on Human Rights resolution 1998/77" officially recognized that "persons [already] performing military service may develop conscientious objections.".^] A number of organizations around the world celebrate the principle on May 15 as International Conscientious Objectors Day.

 

Nothing more sinister in those concerned actions than their beliefs which are supported by the U.N.  

 

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/conscientious_objectors.htm

[Morch]

 

Israel is a democracy.

Political dissent is allowed.

 

 

It's not quite so easy for Palestinian to say NO to Hamas:

 

http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2014/07/24/cnn-tonight-two-men-with-different-views-on-hamas.cnn&video_referrer=

 

Starting a bit after minute 3.

 

If Israel is a democracy why aren't Israeli Arabs allowed to serve in the army and marry who they like?

 

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.590228

 

 

They actually can serve if they want to, they are not required to, though.

Ismail Haniyeh's (Hamas leader) nephews did....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/1520134/Hamas-leaders-three-sisters-live-secretly-in-Israel-as-full-citizens.html

 

[Morch]

 

What restrictions / punishments, if any, are there for Israeli citizens who refuse call up?

 

I think many are jailed, but IMO they deserve medals. And one day when hostilities end, a peace agreement signed and a truth and reconciliation tribunal established, they will receive due recognition.

 

 

I think you make up things in order to score points.

There are not many who outright refuse, not that many coming to face trial and less being actually jailed.
 

[Ulysses G.]

I think you make up things in order to score points.

He is far from the only one. Apologists for Hamas seem to have a habit of making up things that have little or no basis in fact. Edited July 29, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

 

 

What restrictions / punishments, if any, are there for Israeli citizens who refuse call up?

 

I think many are jailed, but IMO they deserve medals. And one day when hostilities end, a peace agreement signed and a truth and reconciliation tribunal established, they will receive due recognition.

 

 

Yes. You are right. Imprisonment is the immediate fate of those who choose not to murder women and children in the name of the IDF. And as the children of a particularly vengeful supernatural being, the Israeli people also find ways to ostracize and harass people of conscience - over and above any formal punishments.

 

It is this admirable minority of Israelis that provide a glimmer of hope that this cycle of war can one day end.

 

 

No, it isn't.

Imprisonment is actually quite uncommon in these cases. Most just get a free pass off reserve duty. Guess that's one way to dodge it if one wishes to.

 

This specific group is made up mostly of women, so doubtful they would have been asked to do any actual fighting. As far as I understand most have not even been called, and many of them are basically nominal reserve duty soldiers - that is, the IDF may call them, but unless all hell breaks loose it's not going to happen. And even then, perhaps not.

 

 

[spidermike007]

 

This is just the tip of what most Jews know and think, but the voice of the Jewish majority are silenced by the powerful Political Zionist (as opposed to Religious Zionist) minority. We need to help the Jewish people liberate themselves from the Political Zionists who are bringing nothing but hatred and condemnation upon them.
 
People like Naomi Wolf, Gideon Levy are more famous examples of Jews who speak their minds - I'm hopeful that there are many more who will come forward now that the Zionist Genocide Machine is out 'mowing the lawn"
 
Jewish !=  Zionist

Yes. I am Jewish, and I cannot even discuss my opposing views with my Jewish friends in the US, without them doubting my "loyalty". I am called a Jew hater, and anti Zionist, and whatever other labels they can think of. Talk about thin skinned! Since when is dialogue discouraged? No dissent allowed? If I am sympathizing with the oppression of the Palestinians, I am somehow branded a traitor? I am starting the think this reeks of fascism, or something far more heinous. It certainly does not resemble anything related to a democratic point of view, nor an open, free debate of the merits. Israel tries to silence anyone speaking out against the party line.


Spidermike
Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect
 

 
How is this group being "silenced"?
What party line would that be? There are quite a few of them in Israel.
 

In any way possible. Dissent simply is not allowed. You are called nasty names, you are branded a traitor, you are referred to as a Jewish hater, someone who hates his own people, or worse. It is a discussion that is discouraged in so many ways. Does not feel like a democratic point of view. Anything can be discussed, except Israeli policy. That is off the table.

And the party line of course refers to the liberal talking points. I used to be a liberal. But, in the US the liberal movement has lost all moral authority. It does not really stand for anything valid anymore. But, that is just my two cents worth. Both parties are broken down vessels.

Spidermike007

[CBR250]

 

This is just an example that not all Israelis are bloodthirsty warmongerers. There is at least one organisation in Israel (can't remember the name) that seeks peace and opposes the oppression of the Palestinians.

 

It's the Netanyahus, Sharons & their right-wing supporters who are the ones responsible for numerous atrocities against the Palestinians, not only in Palestine too.

 

There are actually many such organizations.

The are parties dedicated to peace as their main political platform.

The previous president of Israel was a man of peace.

 

 

 

Yes, there are thankfully many Israelis with a conscience, and who have a take on the issues with Palestine based in the idea of peaceful co-existence. Groups such as: Rabbis for peace, B'tselem, Gisha, Jewish Voice for Peace, Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, Public Committee Against Torture in Israel.

The problem is that right wing zealots dominate the Israeli government. And they got there because the majority of Israelis support them.
 

[simple1]

 

 

 

This is just an example that not all Israelis are bloodthirsty warmongerers. There is at least one organisation in Israel (can't remember the name) that seeks peace and opposes the oppression of the Palestinians.

 

It's the Netanyahus, Sharons & their right-wing supporters who are the ones responsible for numerous atrocities against the Palestinians, not only in Palestine too.

 

There are actually many such organizations. The are parties dedicated to peace as their main political platform.

The previous president of Israel was a man of peace.

 

 

 

Yes, there are thankfully many Israelis with a conscience, and who have a take on the issues with Palestine based in the idea of peaceful co-existence. Groups such as: Rabbis for peace, B'tselem, Gisha, Jewish Voice for Peace, Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, Public Committee Against Torture in Israel.

The problem is that right wing zealots dominate the Israeli government. And they got there because the majority of Israelis support them.
 

 

All the organisations you mention are on one side (Israel)....how about the other side? Being a 'man of peace' is anathema to the arab thinking. It is seen as unmanly and dishonourable.

 

 

Arab Peace Initiative (API) supported by OIC that represents 57 Islamic States,  I believe it's still on the table.

 

"In 2009, President Shimon Peres expressed satisfaction at the "u-turn" in the attitudes of Arab states toward peace with Israel as reflected in the Saudi initiative, though he did qualify his comments by saying: "Israel wasn't a partner to the wording of this initiative. Therefore it doesn't have to agree to every word"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

 

In the article below, dated 05/2014, also talks to the API, it's supported by a number of other Arab organisations.

 

A quote from the article:

 

"According to polls conducted in Israel, 75 per cent of the Israeli society was not aware of the initiative"

 

 

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/News/6329/21/Revisiting-the-Arab-Peace-Initiative.aspx

 

 

[CBR250]

 

 

 

This is just an example that not all Israelis are bloodthirsty warmongerers. There is at least one organisation in Israel (can't remember the name) that seeks peace and opposes the oppression of the Palestinians.

 

It's the Netanyahus, Sharons & their right-wing supporters who are the ones responsible for numerous atrocities against the Palestinians, not only in Palestine too.

 

There are actually many such organizations.

The are parties dedicated to peace as their main political platform.

The previous president of Israel was a man of peace.

 

 

 

Yes, there are thankfully many Israelis with a conscience, and who have a take on the issues with Palestine based in the idea of peaceful co-existence. Groups such as: Rabbis for peace, B'tselem, Gisha, Jewish Voice for Peace, Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, Public Committee Against Torture in Israel.

The problem is that right wing zealots dominate the Israeli government. And they got there because the majority of Israelis support them.
 

 

All the organisations you mention are on one side (Israel)....how about the other side? 

Being a 'man of peace' is anathema to the arab thinking.

It is seen as unmanly and dishonourable.

 

 

Well, most of the responsibility for the continuation of the war does rest with the side that has the upper hand - in this case with Israel. People who who are having their land stolen and lack the level of military might to prevent it shouldn't be expected to be the main players in making peace with those doing the stealing. Having said that, there are indeed a few Arab organisations who work to try to promote peace in Palestine, often alongside Jewish organisations. If you do a search, you can find them quite easily. You might like to let us know on TV which ones you find acceptably open-minded.

 

I think that the generalisation you make about Arab men is not supportable. Being a "man of peace" is certainly not easy in Palestine - nor is it in Israel. Israeli peace activists are often subject to harassment and abuse by those who prefer violence as a means of solving differences.

 

I have had the privilege of meeting Palestinian men who are indeed men of peace, and consistently refuse to support violence despite being ill-treated and harmed themselves. One I met briefly a few years ago, and by whose sincerity and integrity I was very impressed, is Dr Mustafa Barghuti. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kamil_Mustafa_Barghuthi). He was recently interviewed on Al Jazeera about the current killings in Gaza, during which interview he expressed his opposition to the rockets fired by Hamas. Or any form of violence.

Also the late Edward Said - another Arab - was reknowned as a Palestinian intellectual who argued for the right to a Jewish homeland - and its peaceful coexistence alongside  a Palestinian state. These men are highly respected in much of the Arab community, even by those who do not share their views. Most generalisations are wrong, and the one you make about Arab men certainly is.
 

[simple1]

@CBR250. Both the men you mentioned in the above post are quoted in a book I'm currently reading. It's a bit out of date, but quotes interviews with a number of other influencial Arabs who are 'men of peace'. Also quite damning of many Arab leaders. 

 

Book is "Mullahs, Merchants and Militants"

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2014 by simple1

[Morch]

 

 

 

This is just the tip of what most Jews know and think, but the voice of the Jewish majority are silenced by the powerful Political Zionist (as opposed to Religious Zionist) minority. We need to help the Jewish people liberate themselves from the Political Zionists who are bringing nothing but hatred and condemnation upon them.
 
People like Naomi Wolf, Gideon Levy are more famous examples of Jews who speak their minds - I'm hopeful that there are many more who will come forward now that the Zionist Genocide Machine is out 'mowing the lawn"
 
Jewish !=  Zionist

Yes. I am Jewish, and I cannot even discuss my opposing views with my Jewish friends in the US, without them doubting my "loyalty". I am called a Jew hater, and anti Zionist, and whatever other labels they can think of. Talk about thin skinned! Since when is dialogue discouraged? No dissent allowed? If I am sympathizing with the oppression of the Palestinians, I am somehow branded a traitor? I am starting the think this reeks of fascism, or something far more heinous. It certainly does not resemble anything related to a democratic point of view, nor an open, free debate of the merits. Israel tries to silence anyone speaking out against the party line.


Spidermike
Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect
 

 
How is this group being "silenced"?
What party line would that be? There are quite a few of them in Israel.
 

In any way possible. Dissent simply is not allowed. You are called nasty names, you are branded a traitor, you are referred to as a Jewish hater, someone who hates his own people, or worse. It is a discussion that is discouraged in so many ways. Does not feel like a democratic point of view. Anything can be discussed, except Israeli policy. That is off the table.

And the party line of course refers to the liberal talking points. I used to be a liberal. But, in the US the liberal movement has lost all moral authority. It does not really stand for anything valid anymore. But, that is just my two cents worth. Both parties are broken down vessels.

Spidermike007

 

 

How does your friends having thin skin imply that Israel is silencing dissent? How is the current group being silenced?  How is dissent not allows when you see headline such as the current one?

 

There are more than one Israeli journalist routinely publishing very anti-government and anti-mainstream opinions.  There are anti-Zionist parties in the parliament (both Arab and Jewish).

 

I believe the word you look for is intolerance, which would describe public sentiment about these view more accurately.

 

If you are talking about position of USA Jews, well, can't say they are all that relevant in the current topic's context, most do not serve in the IDF anyway.

[Morch]

 

 

This is just an example that not all Israelis are bloodthirsty warmongerers. There is at least one organisation in Israel (can't remember the name) that seeks peace and opposes the oppression of the Palestinians.

 

It's the Netanyahus, Sharons & their right-wing supporters who are the ones responsible for numerous atrocities against the Palestinians, not only in Palestine too.

 

There are actually many such organizations.

The are parties dedicated to peace as their main political platform.

The previous president of Israel was a man of peace.

 

 

 

Yes, there are thankfully many Israelis with a conscience, and who have a take on the issues with Palestine based in the idea of peaceful co-existence. Groups such as: Rabbis for peace, B'tselem, Gisha, Jewish Voice for Peace, Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, Public Committee Against Torture in Israel.

The problem is that right wing zealots dominate the Israeli government. And they got there because the majority of Israelis support them.
 

 

 

As the rest of my quoted post stated:

 

 

It does not make everyone serving in the IDF a right wing supporter, or even a bloodthirsty warmongers.

Many of those that serve in the IDF, still vote for left wing and pro-peace parties.

Reality a bit more complicated than black and white formulations.

 

Not every politician on the right wing is a zealot, even.  The current Israeli government is a coalition government, not all the parties are right wing, even.

 

A lot of Israelis support right wing parties because they do not see the left wing as offering anything tangent. The left wing (or peace camp) stance is being made a hard sale also due to the Palestinian side's actions (especially the Hamas).
 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

There are actually many such organizations.

The are parties dedicated to peace as their main political platform.

The previous president of Israel was a man of peace.

 

 

 

Yes, there are thankfully many Israelis with a conscience, and who have a take on the issues with Palestine based in the idea of peaceful co-existence. Groups such as: Rabbis for peace, B'tselem, Gisha, Jewish Voice for Peace, Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, Public Committee Against Torture in Israel.

The problem is that right wing zealots dominate the Israeli government. And they got there because the majority of Israelis support them.
 

 

All the organisations you mention are on one side (Israel)....how about the other side? Being a 'man of peace' is anathema to the arab thinking. It is seen as unmanly and dishonourable.

 

 

Arab Peace Initiative (API) supported by OIC that represents 57 Islamic States,  I believe it's still on the table.

 

"In 2009, President Shimon Peres expressed satisfaction at the "u-turn" in the attitudes of Arab states toward peace with Israel as reflected in the Saudi initiative, though he did qualify his comments by saying: "Israel wasn't a partner to the wording of this initiative. Therefore it doesn't have to agree to every word"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

 

In the article below, dated 05/2014, also talks to the API, it's supported by a number of other Arab organisations.

 

A quote from the article:

 

"According to polls conducted in Israel, 75 per cent of the Israeli society was not aware of the initiative"

 

 

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/News/6329/21/Revisiting-the-Arab-Peace-Initiative.aspx

 

 

 

 

The Hamas rejected the initial offer (and carried out a mass terror attack to make the point) as well as its later re-endorsement.

 

Lebanon was (and is) in no position to uphold any serious treaty, the current situation in Syria (which took some pressure to go along with the initiative) precludes getting anything done on that front, and of course, Iraq is a mess.

 

The offer was on the table, and Israel should probably have gone for it. Even if the initial formulation was not perfect it could have served as setting a precedent for direct negotiations between most sides involved. An opportunity missed.

 

Technically still on the table, although not quite sure what real meaning does it carry under current regional conditions.

 

The quote regarding Israelis being unaware of the initiative is not sourced, as far as I could tell, so no idea which poll is referred to. In Israeli media it is usually termed the Saudi Initiative.
 

[Ulysses G.]

Well, most of the responsibility for the continuation of the war does rest with the side that has the upper hand - in this case with Israel.

Actually, it rests with the side that started the conflict in the first place, has kept it going and has refused countless offers to make peace over many decades - the Palestinian Arabs. You can't stop a war without a willing partner.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDW88CBo-8
 

[Jingthing]

Both sides could have done a lot more to make peace. Blood under the bridge. What now? I doubt anyone really knows. 

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

There are actually many such organizations.

The are parties dedicated to peace as their main political platform.

The previous president of Israel was a man of peace.

 

 

 

Yes, there are thankfully many Israelis with a conscience, and who have a take on the issues with Palestine based in the idea of peaceful co-existence. Groups such as: Rabbis for peace, B'tselem, Gisha, Jewish Voice for Peace, Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, Public Committee Against Torture in Israel.

The problem is that right wing zealots dominate the Israeli government. And they got there because the majority of Israelis support them.
 

 

All the organisations you mention are on one side (Israel)....how about the other side? 

Being a 'man of peace' is anathema to the arab thinking.

It is seen as unmanly and dishonourable.

 

 

Well, most of the responsibility for the continuation of the war does rest with the side that has the upper hand - in this case with Israel. People who who are having their land stolen and lack the level of military might to prevent it shouldn't be expected to be the main players in making peace with those doing the stealing. Having said that, there are indeed a few Arab organisations who work to try to promote peace in Palestine, often alongside Jewish organisations. If you do a search, you can find them quite easily. You might like to let us know on TV which ones you find acceptably open-minded.

 

I think that the generalisation you make about Arab men is not supportable. Being a "man of peace" is certainly not easy in Palestine - nor is it in Israel. Israeli peace activists are often subject to harassment and abuse by those who prefer violence as a means of solving differences.

 

I have had the privilege of meeting Palestinian men who are indeed men of peace, and consistently refuse to support violence despite being ill-treated and harmed themselves. One I met briefly a few years ago, and by whose sincerity and integrity I was very impressed, is Dr Mustafa Barghuti. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kamil_Mustafa_Barghuthi). He was recently interviewed on Al Jazeera about the current killings in Gaza, during which interview he expressed his opposition to the rockets fired by Hamas. Or any form of violence.

Also the late Edward Said - another Arab - was reknowned as a Palestinian intellectual who argued for the right to a Jewish homeland - and its peaceful coexistence alongside  a Palestinian state. These men are highly respected in much of the Arab community, even by those who do not share their views. Most generalisations are wrong, and the one you make about Arab men certainly is.
 

 

 

When you say that Barghuti and Said are highly respected in much of the Arab community - how is this reflected in Palestinian society and political system? As far as I am aware, their views are not widely accepted, even if they are accorded respect (especially true for the late Edward Said).
 

[Thorgal]

Well, most of the responsibility for the continuation of the war does rest with the side that has the upper hand - in this case with Israel.

Actually, it rests with the side that started the conflict in the first place, has kept it going and has refused countless offers to make peace over many decades - the Palestinian Arabs. You can't stop a war without a willing partner.
 

 

@ Jingthing, Ulysses, Morch and others...

You would never write these things if you knew or understand the basics of Hegelian dialectics.

But finally to come to a solution you should be aware of basics or principles of Voltaire...




Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand Edited July 29, 2014 by Thorgal

[dr_lucas]

 

 

Well, most of the responsibility for the continuation of the war does rest with the side that has the upper hand - in this case with Israel.

Actually, it rests with the side that started the conflict in the first place, has kept it going and has refused countless offers to make peace over many decades - the Palestinian Arabs. You can't stop a war without a willing partner.
 

 

@ Jingthing, Ulysses, Morch and others...

You would never write these things if you knew or understand the basics of Hegelian dialectics.

But finally to come to a solution you should be aware of basics or principles of Voltaire...


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

 

Knowing both basics, I still don't get what you were trying to say. Please enlighten us with more details & less obscure comments.

[Thorgal]

 

 

Well, most of the responsibility for the continuation of the war does rest with the side that has the upper hand - in this case with Israel.

Actually, it rests with the side that started the conflict in the first place, has kept it going and has refused countless offers to make peace over many decades - the Palestinian Arabs. You can't stop a war without a willing partner.
 

 

@ Jingthing, Ulysses, Morch and others...

You would never write these things if you knew or understand the basics of Hegelian dialectics.

But finally to come to a solution you should be aware of basics or principles of Voltaire...


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand
 

 
Knowing both basics, I still don't get what you were trying to say.
Please enlighten us with more details & less obscure comments.

Ask the same question to a native American.

Make yourself the parallel with conflict in Gaza if you really understand my previous post.

haw !


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