When Nomads becomes Static are they still Nomadic?

[chrisinth]

I have read a lot of threads recently about so called "IT Nomads" and the complaints that there doesn't appear to be a current visa that would cover their scope of work.

In the majority of cases, it appears that the complainant is looking for a long term solution to stay in Thailand based on their "job description". To me, this brings at least two different departments into play, immigration and labor, with the possibility of the Ministry of the Interior making the third.

Just adding a twist to the threads, I would like to ask these people, what defines their job descriptions? What is the controlling body or circumstances (yes, contradiction in terms) that would allow the department of labor to consider issuing work permits for only them and not the next person who writes IT Nomad on their application?

In other words, how would the government of Thailand regulate this area without opening another loophole in the system?

Note: This isn't a dig at online workers, just question for them.

[LivinLOS]

what defines their job descriptions? What is the controlling body or circumstances (yes, contradiction in terms) that would allow the department of labor to consider issuing work permits for only them and not the next person who writes IT Nomad on their application?

There isnt one.. The authorities could, if they so wished, adapt the media visa to cover online media, hence blog publishing etc would fall under this remit.

There then comes the intense difficulty in verifying incomes and in many cases maintaining min wage etc.

Currently it seems clear the authorities dont wish to do this. Which is entirely their right. However when the definitions of work are so vague, huge grey areas appear, and you can hardly blame the people caught up without a visa class route to them, for staying in the grey area the current rules create.

[stevenl]

what defines their job descriptions? What is the controlling body or circumstances (yes, contradiction in terms) that would allow the department of labor to consider issuing work permits for only them and not the next person who writes IT Nomad on their application?

There isnt one.. The authorities could, if they so wished, adapt the media visa to cover online media, hence blog publishing etc would fall under this remit.

There then comes the intense difficulty in verifying incomes and in many cases maintaining min wage etc.

Currently it seems clear the authorities dont wish to do this. Which is entirely their right. However when the definitions of work are so vague, huge grey areas appear, and you can hardly blame the people caught up without a visa class route to them, for staying in the grey area the current rules create.

Are you claiming the present situation is a grey area for online workers?

[JLCrab]

The following is from a BOI Pres Release May 2013 focusing of Software:

Thailand’s software industry continues to experience strong growth, due to sound government policies, and increasingly high-tech infrastructure and improving workforce skills. Thailand offers many benefits for firms engaged in software development and the production of digital content including animation and games. Most notably, Thailand offers investors a competitive salary range, an educated workforce, a central location in Southeast Asia, and a domestic market with high growth potential.

Now this may be PR bullsh-t but, somehow or other, the powers-that-be would have to be convinced that amending the rules such that non-Thai individuals who have no intention to make substantial investments in or hire university graduates from Thailand is of great potential benefit to Thailand and that not to do so is to their detriment.

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Thailand could just remove the age criteria on the retirement visa. Simple.

Or they could follow the lead of PI with their smile visa:

http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

what defines their job descriptions? What is the controlling body or circumstances (yes, contradiction in terms) that would allow the department of labor to consider issuing work permits for only them and not the next person who writes IT Nomad on their application?

There isnt one.. The authorities could, if they so wished, adapt the media visa to cover online media, hence blog publishing etc would fall under this remit.

There then comes the intense difficulty in verifying incomes and in many cases maintaining min wage etc.

Currently it seems clear the authorities dont wish to do this. Which is entirely their right. However when the definitions of work are so vague, huge grey areas appear, and you can hardly blame the people caught up without a visa class route to them, for staying in the grey area the current rules create.

LOS, agree with your points, very similar to mine. The internet is a huge grey area with no global regulations and a nightmare for any government to issue work permits, or rather regulate the issue of those permits where the definition of work is so general.

I know a lot of people living in Thailand, with the correct visas to satisfy immigration, however the majority of them are still in communication with businesses outside the country to one degree or another and are in effect ignoring the labour laws by doing so.

Taking interpretation to the limit, even people on this forum, by submitting advice and comments and improving the rating of the site could be defined as working.

[JLCrab]

They could 'just'... no comment.

[bangkoklasse]

Thailand could just remove the age criteria on the retirement visa. Simple.

Or they could follow the lead of PI with their smile visa:

http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1

It would be rather strange if teenagers lived here on retirement visas

[Bulldozer Dawn]

Thailand could just remove the age criteria on the retirement visa. Simple.

Or they could follow the lead of PI with their smile visa:

http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1

It would be rather strange if teenagers lived here on retirement visas

Why...if they have 800K THB on deposit the same as the old farts?

The only people who would disagree to this are the old farts who would never get a girl if young handsome go getters were given the same rights as the over 50 crowd receive.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Bulldozer Dawn

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The following is from a BOI Pres Release May 2013 focusing of Software:

Thailand’s software industry continues to experience strong growth, due to sound government policies, and increasingly high-tech infrastructure and improving workforce skills. Thailand offers many benefits for firms engaged in software development and the production of digital content including animation and games. Most notably, Thailand offers investors a competitive salary range, an educated workforce, a central location in Southeast Asia, and a domestic market with high growth potential.

Now this may be PR bullsh-t but, somehow or other, the powers-that-be would have to be convinced that amending the rules such that non-Thai individuals who have no intention to make substantial investments in or hire university graduates from Thailand is of great potential benefit to Thailand and that not to do so is to their detriment.

Agree, reads like PR B-S, but the above is focusing on industry. The self proclaimed IT nomads I was referring to have no input into industry and are making money for themselves with online investments and sales.

Again, the term IT should be better defined as it is a coverall description in itself.

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Thailand could just remove the age criteria on the retirement visa. Simple.

Or they could follow the lead of PI with their smile visa:

http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1

This isn't about visas as such, but permissions to work. Can't do that on a retirement visa so a moot point.

[JLCrab]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The following is from a BOI Pres Release May 2013 focusing of Software:

Thailand’s software industry continues to experience strong growth, due to sound government policies, and increasingly high-tech infrastructure and improving workforce skills. Thailand offers many benefits for firms engaged in software development and the production of digital content including animation and games. Most notably, Thailand offers investors a competitive salary range, an educated workforce, a central location in Southeast Asia, and a domestic market with high growth potential.

Now this may be PR bullsh-t but, somehow or other, the powers-that-be would have to be convinced that amending the rules such that non-Thai individuals who have no intention to make substantial investments in or hire university graduates from Thailand is of great potential benefit to Thailand and that not to do so is to their detriment.

Agree, reads like PR B-S, but the above is focusing on industry. The self proclaimed IT nomads I was referring to have no input into industry and are making money for themselves with online investments and sales.

Again, the term IT should be better defined as it is a coverall description in itself.

... and the Thai government has said here and elsewhere that they are interested in accommodating those who work online and are adding something to the Thai online services infrastructure. They do not seem to see Thailand as a pied a terre for someone only making money for themselves and saying I don't need any help in my activites of choice..

[bangkoklasse]

Thailand could just remove the age criteria on the retirement visa. Simple.

Or they could follow the lead of PI with their smile visa:

http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1

It would be rather strange if teenagers lived here on retirement visas

Why...if they have 800K THB on deposit the same as the old farts?

The only people who would disagree to this are the old farts who would never get a girl if young handsome go getters were given the same rights as the over 50 crowd receive.

What have the visa to do with getting young girls ?

Maybe you like to skip the married criteria in the spouse visa also? Or the education in the ED visa?

[JLCrab]

The age 50 for Retirement is in Police Order 777/2551 which is promulgation of a Ministerial Regulation under Sections 34 and 35 of the Thai Immigration Act (2522) . While it certainly can be changed, it does not 'just' happen on a whim.

BTW every time someone obtains a Tourist Visa they sign the declaration:

You declare that the purpose of your visit to Thailand is for pleasure only and that in no case shall you engage yourself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

So if one has signed the above and is engaged in a profession or occupation, they have signed a false declaration to an official of Thailand which is covered in the Thai Penal Code

Edited July 27, 2014 by JLCrab

[SoFarAndNear]

Allow a new kind of company formation which can be be founded by a foreigner and need only 1 person which will only grant to one work permit. This company will only be allowed to receive income from outside of Thailand.

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The following is from a BOI Pres Release May 2013 focusing of Software:

Thailand’s software industry continues to experience strong growth, due to sound government policies, and increasingly high-tech infrastructure and improving workforce skills. Thailand offers many benefits for firms engaged in software development and the production of digital content including animation and games. Most notably, Thailand offers investors a competitive salary range, an educated workforce, a central location in Southeast Asia, and a domestic market with high growth potential.

Now this may be PR bullsh-t but, somehow or other, the powers-that-be would have to be convinced that amending the rules such that non-Thai individuals who have no intention to make substantial investments in or hire university graduates from Thailand is of great potential benefit to Thailand and that not to do so is to their detriment.

alt=biggrin.png> Agree, reads like PR B-S, but the above is focusing on industry. The self proclaimed IT nomads I was referring to have no input into industry and are making money for themselves with online investments and sales.

Again, the term IT should be better defined as it is a coverall description in itself.

... and the Thai government has said here and elsewhere that they are interested in accommodating those who work online and are adding something to the Thai online services infrastructure. They do not seem to see Thailand as a pied a terre for someone only making money for themselves and saying I don't need any help in my activites of choice..

And hence back to the OP, how would a proclaimed online worker define him/herself, without setting up a company and employing Thais? From what I have read (my interpretation) the people complaining that they can't live and work here are not prepared to take these steps. They want to remain nomadic while being static.

[laolover88]

Self employment visa. Have to demonstrate that either+/or activity benefits the Thai Economy..ie funds patriated / Tax paid+/ or employs Thai associates. Not difficult. Good deal easier than authenticating Burmese Fisherfolk

[JLCrab]

Hey kids -- Let's put on a show!

[user82374298374]

I know a lot of people living in Thailand, with the correct visas to satisfy immigration, however the majority of them are still in communication with businesses outside the country to one degree or another and are in effect ignoring the labour laws by doing so.

Practically everyone who is gainfully employed elsewhere in the world and enters Thailand on a tourist visa or a visa exemption breaks the law as it's currently constituted, as they exchange email, chat in IM, and/or speak voice/video with colleagues back home.

Almost all professionals who enter Thailand for business conferences or corporate retreats being held in Bangkok or Phuket or wherever violate the law, as they overwhelmingly enter Thailand on tourist visas or a visa exemption.

If the law were truly enforced as written, Thailand's convention/event industry would take even more of a hit than it already has due to political instability.

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I know a lot of people living in Thailand, with the correct visas to satisfy immigration, however the majority of them are still in communication with businesses outside the country to one degree or another and are in effect ignoring the labour laws by doing so.

Practically everyone who is gainfully employed elsewhere in the world and enters Thailand on a tourist visa or a visa exemption breaks the law as it's currently constituted, as they exchange email, chat in IM, and/or speak voice/video with colleagues back home.

Almost all professionals who enter Thailand for business conferences or corporate retreats being held in Bangkok or Phuket or wherever violate the law, as they overwhelmingly enter Thailand on tourist visas or a visa exemption.

If the law were truly enforced as written, Thailand's convention/event industry would take even more of a hit than it already has due to political instability.

True, by the letter of the law I agree with you.

The people I was referring to are here mostly with long term stay, retirement, non-O dependency, etc.

This satisfies immigration as they meet the requirements for living here, but flaunts the labour laws.

Edited July 27, 2014 by chrisinth

[Pattszero]

If you can leave the country and not worry about the financial loss of leaving stuff behind you're a nomad. If you haven't put roots down by buying houses or businesses, you're a nomad. People exist in Thailand for years with a nomadic attitude, and they tend to be the happiest - they're here because they want to be here - not because they are trapped.

It doesn't matter what visa you're on - retirement/work/whatever - as long as you can leave in a heart-beat without worrying about what you leave behind - you are a nomad.

Non-nomads own houses/condos/businesses - or are tied to families. Some non-nomads can't afford the price of a flight home - non-nomads are stuck, they have to disentangle themselves to get out of the country. I'd guess that ninety-odd percent of long-stayers in Thailand take a nomadic attitude to the country. Even of they have been here for years, they will never allow themselves to be trapped in Thailand. I'd place a bet that ninety-odd percent of long=stayers in Thailand could leave within twenty-four hours and leave nothing of consequence behind.

So when do you stop being a nomad? when you put down roots that have to be ripped out to allow you to leave.

That applies to everyone. irrespective of age or length of time in the country.

[LivinLOS]

what defines their job descriptions? What is the controlling body or circumstances (yes, contradiction in terms) that would allow the department of labor to consider issuing work permits for only them and not the next person who writes IT Nomad on their application?

There isnt one.. The authorities could, if they so wished, adapt the media visa to cover online media, hence blog publishing etc would fall under this remit.

There then comes the intense difficulty in verifying incomes and in many cases maintaining min wage etc.

Currently it seems clear the authorities dont wish to do this. Which is entirely their right. However when the definitions of work are so vague, huge grey areas appear, and you can hardly blame the people caught up without a visa class route to them, for staying in the grey area the current rules create.

Are you claiming the present situation is a grey area for online workers?

Yes in some specific ways.. No in the simplistic resident person working online for income way.

I can list many many ways the law is unsure, I am sure anyone with half a brain can think of many others.

Issues around location at the time of content creation.. Issues around the aspect of residual income from sites or advertising while visiting the kingdom.. Issues around hobby sites or creating youtube videos for fun Etc etc.. Its easy to think of many complexities in how to interpret the law, which is clearly written in such a catch all way as to criminalize everything at all times, so that the actual enforcement is down to discretion not a precise law or case prescient.

Example.. Someone is a global travel video blogger, they have videos from Peru, China, India, Turkey.. all making them advert revenue.. They step off the plane, the second they do so, their adverts are paying them money, but are they working ?? I mean how many tourists are still getting holiday pay while coming here just the same, are you saying they are all working ?? Because their past work is making revenue ?? The hypothetical videos they made, were made and edited outside the kingdom, in the past, isnt revenue from them simply like revenue from rental property outside the country, you dont need a work permit to own property overseas do you ?? So how about they start recording a video while in Thailand, are you saying a tourist cant make a holiday video ?? What about as long they dont upload it to youtube until after the leave..

You are really telling me you cant see any grey areas in that ?? What is work ?? Is the food blogger taking pictures of his Thai cuisine while on vacation working ?? Even if he doesnt write or upload the blog until he leaves the country ?? No one can photograph a meal without a work permit ??

What is the point where content creation becomes 'work' ?? Is posting to a forum work ?? What if its posting to your own forum ?? What if you have ads on the forum ?? Or what if you have a forum, where other people only post, but you never post, edit, or admin.. In which of these situations is it work ??

So yes.. There are grey areas and hard to define lines.

[LivinLOS]

Thailand could just remove the age criteria on the retirement visa. Simple.

Or they could follow the lead of PI with their smile visa:

http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1

It would be rather strange if teenagers lived here on retirement visas

I never understood that.. Another generation seems to think 'retirement' means old age.. Retirement is to me simply the time you have enough assets to stop working. If that happens when your 19, 29, 39 or whatever makes no difference.. I did enough in a few years to be safely comfortable. I retired.. If you do it in your 20s or your 40s is purely down to having enough to stop work and live comfortably.

Set the bar for what they think that number is, and let people show it. If they want to set the bar higher, the younger you are, theres some logic there.. But the idea you have to work out your days simply isnt how it is, people have business successes at all kinds of ages, people win lotteries or have trust funds, what difference does it make.

[Pattszero]

Re the visa question - all it would take would be an adjustment to the existing rules - easily done.

They could call it the automatic taxation visa. charge 5,000 baht a month for it, and the visa tax could be laid against our home country taxes. I'd guess about fifty-thousand people would take it up, @60,000 baht per year - raising 3,000,000,000 baht per annum, or about $94 million dollars.

That would be on top of a likely 24 billion baht per annum spend by the tax-visa holders - that level spend would support many jobs and businesses, and naturally would include even more sales-tax revenue going to the government. I'd call it win-win.

[JLCrab]

Set the bar for what they think that number is .. They did. 50.

[LivinLOS]

... and the Thai government has said here and elsewhere that they are interested in accommodating those who work online and are adding something to the Thai online services infrastructure. They do not seem to see Thailand as a pied a terre for someone only making money for themselves and saying I don't need any help in my activites of choice..

and that is entirely Thailand right to do so..

However some of us are trying to point out, Thailand might stand to gain a lot more than it stands to lose, especially as until recently there was an accepted way to stay here legally if you had a good residual income that come from outside Thailand and didnt do any business here.

Sure maybe these people dont want or need to hire 4 thai staff, but maybe they contract a digital artist, maybe they need a video studio, use local print services, maybe they like to use a coworking space where people bounce ideas around.. Maybe they contract a Thai programmer, maybe they train one.. Most countries recognize these kind of entrepreneurial young people making startups as a strong element within an economy, both for the ambition and hardwork of youth and the montoring and devlopment that comes with successes, they make ideas which ultimately do employ people directly and indirectly.. Theres also a 'buzz' to having a lot of energetic startups around, in the businesses they frequent and a hard to define vibe that comes with a young creator imaginative economy, check the bar and cafe life in any tech industry hotspot, its usually buzzing..

Thailand has the right to say no thanks.. And currently thats how it is.. But is it good for Thailand ?? Do these people somehow drain Thailands resources somehow ?? Do they take more than they give ?? Straining thailands social security net somehow ??

Instead of just robot like repeating "its the law" the question is more, "is it a good law" and "does this law help or hinder Thailands development" ??

[Pattszero]

Thailand could just remove the age criteria on the retirement visa. Simple.

Or they could follow the lead of PI with their smile visa:

http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1

It would be rather strange if teenagers lived here on retirement visas

I never understood that.. Another generation seems to think 'retirement' means old age.. Retirement is to me simply the time you have enough assets to stop working. If that happens when your 19, 29, 39 or whatever makes no difference.. I did enough in a few years to be safely comfortable. I retired.. If you do it in your 20s or your 40s is purely down to having enough to stop work and live comfortably.

Set the bar for what they think that number is, and let people show it. If they want to set the bar higher, the younger you are, theres some logic there.. But the idea you have to work out your days simply isnt how it is, people have business successes at all kinds of ages, people win lotteries or have trust funds, what difference does it make.

The difference is jealousy -

Some people can't stand the thought that others have had a go, and earned more by the time they are 30 than they will in their entire lives. I'm wealthy enough but I'm watching young friends of mine earn funny money. I know one twenty-three year old digital nomad in Thailand that's earning $30,000 a month - and the way his business is set up - he can retire right now. He is not the highest earning nomad I know - some of these guys are on funny money.

I think it's great - others boil and froth with jealousy.

[LivinLOS]

The age 50 for Retirement is in Police Order 777/2551 which is promulgation of a Ministerial Regulation under Sections 34 and 35 of the Thai Immigration Act (2522) . While it certainly can be changed, it does not 'just' happen on a whim.

BTW every time someone obtains a Tourist Visa they sign the declaration:

You declare that the purpose of your visit to Thailand is for pleasure only and that in no case shall you engage yourself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

So if one has signed the above and is engaged in a profession or occupation, they have signed a false declaration to an official of Thailand which is covered in the Thai Penal Code

But when is work not work ?? If you have built residual income.. That doesnt need your input.. are you working in "any profession or occupation" ?? Sitting there getting royalty cheques / adsense bucks.

Thats what travel bloggers and video bloggers and ebook writers and and and.. have done..

The 'work' thats now generating revenue may have happened years ago.. Like an author writing a book then coming here after it gets published..

But some would say theres no grey areas in Thai law !!

[JLCrab]

Thailand is a sovereign country with a population about the same as France or Italy. And here we have a bunch of non-citizens sitting around thinking how that sovereign country should modify its immigration, labor, tax and who knows what other policies because it may be in that country's interest but most certainly would be in the interest of the ThaiVisa Members positing.

So how do you go about changing such myriad policies in your home country? 'taint easy in mine is all I know.

Edited July 27, 2014 by JLCrab

[LivinLOS]

Set the bar for what they think that number is .. They did. 50.

I mean set the bar for what number amount of assets they define is enough to live without needing to work.