When Nomads becomes Static are they still Nomadic?

[JLCrab]

Set the bar for what they think that number is .. They did. 50.

I mean set the bar for what number amount of assets they define is enough to live without needing to work.

They've done that, too. Just like they have set the 10 Million baht investment that you think needs to be re-set which, the last time they did, they raised it from 3 million.

I'm not here to say that any of the ideas that people have suggested are unreasonable and maybe are more appropriate today than some of the laws that are on the books. I am more concerned with the mechanism to effect any change which nobody ever seems to mention except for "Well, they can just change this, or just change that ..." Great.

Edited July 27, 2014 by JLCrab

[bangkoklasse]

Set the bar for what they think that number is .. They did. 50.

I mean set the bar for what number amount of assets they define is enough to live without needing to work.

The numbers are 50 and 800k.

And I'm sure you would complain whatever those numbers where.

[LivinLOS]

Thailand is a sovereign country with a population about the same as France or Italy. And here we have a bunch of non-citizens sitting around thinking how that sovereign country should modify its immigration, labor, tax and who knows what other policies because it may be in that country's interest but most certainly would be in the interest of the ThaiVisa Members positing.

So how do you go about changing such myriad policies in your home country? 'taint easy in mine is all I know.

Its not in my best interests at all.. I have a long stay visa and have been on the same extension for maybe 5 years.. I am certainly not in need of a visa.. I am safely retired and the appreciation of my investments since coming here mean I have far more of a buffer now than the day I arrived. Now if incorporation was easier, sure maybe I would start more businesses, employ more Thais, create more services ?? I dont know.. I already do this in the west so maybe I would do it here if I felt more secure.

So my opinions on why this might be beneficial for the country I live in, are just that.. Thoughts on why this is an opportunity for Thailand instead of the problem some paint it.

As I said, constant robot like repeating "its the law" rather than debating or discussing the issues raised, and if its a beneficial law.. Is dead end thinking. Theres nothing inherently wrong with youth being here and being active within the economy, and potential downsides such as working in the local economy and depriving Thais of jobs, is pretty easy to safeguard against. The remaining objections just start sounding like "get off my lawn" sour grapes from those who had to work all their lives in employment.

[LivinLOS]

Set the bar for what they think that number is .. They did. 50.

I mean set the bar for what number amount of assets they define is enough to live without needing to work.

The numbers are 50 and 800k.

And I'm sure you would complain whatever those numbers where.

I think the money should be raised.. 2 mil for retirement.. Far to many old codgers sitting around on 50 and 60k a month while us young uns pump 200k a month into the place..

Or starts a 30 years old and 2 mil a year.. Most of the younger guys I know are in the 150 plus spending monthly.. Seems about right.

[JLCrab]

All is bullsh-t unless you can find a way to bring these great notions as to what is good tor someone else's country and incidentally benefits you to the attention of someone who is in the position to do something about it and agrees with you.

[LivinLOS]

All is bullsh-t unless you can find a way to bring these great notions as to what is good tor someone else's country and incidentally benefits you to the attention of someone who is in the position to do something about it and agrees with you.

And yet posters often say how immigration reads this forum for understanding of the expats issues and how they work around the system..

[bangkoklasse]

Thailand could just remove the age criteria on the retirement visa. Simple.

Or they could follow the lead of PI with their smile visa:

http://www.pra.gov.ph/main/srrv_program?page=1

It would be rather strange if teenagers lived here on retirement visas

I never understood that.. Another generation seems to think 'retirement' means old age.. Retirement is to me simply the time you have enough assets to stop working. If that happens when your 19, 29, 39 or whatever makes no difference.. I did enough in a few years to be safely comfortable. I retired.. If you do it in your 20s or your 40s is purely down to having enough to stop work and live comfortably.

Set the bar for what they think that number is, and let people show it. If they want to set the bar higher, the younger you are, theres some logic there.. But the idea you have to work out your days simply isnt how it is, people have business successes at all kinds of ages, people win lotteries or have trust funds, what difference does it make.

The difference is jealousy -

Some people can't stand the thought that others have had a go, and earned more by the time they are 30 than they will in their entire lives. I'm wealthy enough but I'm watching young friends of mine earn funny money. I know one twenty-three year old digital nomad in Thailand that's earning $30,000 a month - and the way his business is set up - he can retire right now. He is not the highest earning nomad I know - some of these guys are on funny money.

I think it's great - others boil and froth with jealousy.

Yes it's jealousy. Some people here on TV can't stand that 50+ people are allowed to stay here based on retirement. When they also like to do that but can't because they are young. And they belive that they contribute so much because they eat noddle soup 3 times a day in the street corner

[bangkoklasse]

Set the bar for what they think that number is .. They did. 50.

I mean set the bar for what number amount of assets they define is enough to live without needing to work.

The numbers are 50 and 800k.

And I'm sure you would complain whatever those numbers where.

I think the money should be raised.. 2 mil for retirement.. Far to many old codgers sitting around on 50 and 60k a month while us young uns pump 200k a month into the place..

Or starts a 30 years old and 2 mil a year.. Most of the younger guys I know are in the 150 plus spending monthly.. Seems about right.

You are not allowed to stay based on retirement if you only have 50-60k a month. So obviously you are wrong

[chrisinth]

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If you can leave the country and not worry about the financial loss of leaving stuff behind you're a nomad. If you haven't put roots down by buying houses or businesses, you're a nomad. People exist in Thailand for years with a nomadic attitude, and they tend to be the happiest - they're here because they want to be here - not because they are trapped.

It doesn't matter what visa you're on - retirement/work/whatever - as long as you can leave in a heart-beat without worrying about what you leave behind - you are a nomad.

Non-nomads own houses/condos/businesses - or are tied to families. Some non-nomads can't afford the price of a flight home - non-nomads are stuck, they have to disentangle themselves to get out of the country. I'd guess that ninety-odd percent of long-stayers in Thailand take a nomadic attitude to the country. Even of they have been here for years, they will never allow themselves to be trapped in Thailand. I'd place a bet that ninety-odd percent of long=stayers in Thailand could leave within twenty-four hours and leave nothing of consequence behind.

So when do you stop being a nomad? when you put down roots that have to be ripped out to allow you to leave.

That applies to everyone. irrespective of age or length of time in the country.

"If you can leave the country and not worry about the financial loss of leaving stuff behind you're a nomad. If you haven't put roots down by buying houses or businesses, you're a nomad."

I would disagree. I meet all your criteria above, yet wouldn't consider myself a nomad. I have made sacrifices, rather adjustments, to remain in this country. I still have the freedom to travel anywhere I want, my wife would travel with me. To lose a car and a job would also be acceptable, but why would I want to? That to me is not being nomadic.

As with the OP, the majority of people chasing the criteria for "IT nomads" are in my opinion looking for long stay options to remain in Thailand, going against the description of their occupation. Also, the majority are not willing to make changes to accommodate the laws of the country, they want their cake and to eat it as well.

Nomadic is continually on the move.

[JLCrab]

All is bullsh-t unless you can find a way to bring these great notions as to what is good tor someone else's country and incidentally benefits you to the attention of someone who is in the position to do something about it and agrees with you.

And yet posters often say how immigration reads this forum for understanding of the expats issues and how they work around the system..

Well then you're all set. Just sit back and wait for the upheaval and amendments to all dem Acts.

[LivinLOS]

I think the money should be raised.. 2 mil for retirement.. Far to many old codgers sitting around on 50 and 60k a month while us young uns pump 200k a month into the place..

Or starts a 30 years old and 2 mil a year.. Most of the younger guys I know are in the 150 plus spending monthly.. Seems about right.

You are not allowed to stay based on retirement if you only have 50-60k a month. So obviously you are wrong

But plenty have pensions less than the 65k and make it up with cash sitting around.. Or borrow some for a few months..

I have seen loads of old codgers eeking by on 50k and under.. I am sure you have seen them sat on the concrete chairs out the front of the mom and pop store with the bottle of chang too.

Yet these are apparently better for the Thai economy than a dynamic young person, starting ventures, using local services, earning 150k a month..

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I think the money should be raised.. 2 mil for retirement.. Far to many old codgers sitting around on 50 and 60k a month while us young uns pump 200k a month into the place..

Or starts a 30 years old and 2 mil a year.. Most of the younger guys I know are in the 150 plus spending monthly.. Seems about right.

You are not allowed to stay based on retirement if you only have 50-60k a month. So obviously you are wrong

But plenty have pensions less than the 65k and make it up with cash sitting around.. Or borrow some for a few months..

I have seen loads of old codgers eeking by on 50k and under.. I am sure you have seen them sat on the concrete chairs out the front of the mom and pop store with the bottle of chang too.

Yet these are apparently better for the Thai economy than a dynamic young person, starting ventures, using local services, earning 150k a month..

This is part of the whole OP is it not? If a dynamic young person started venues using local services then he would be able to remain in Thailand legally as he/she would be starting/running/being involved with a legitimate business venture and entitled to the same work permit that the rest of us are entitled to?

[JLCrab]

Re: All those changes to Thai Immigration Act, Foreign Business Act, etc., to quote Jimi Hendrix

I know what I want

But I just don't know, honey

How to go about getting it

[bangkoklasse]

I think the money should be raised.. 2 mil for retirement.. Far to many old codgers sitting around on 50 and 60k a month while us young uns pump 200k a month into the place..

Or starts a 30 years old and 2 mil a year.. Most of the younger guys I know are in the 150 plus spending monthly.. Seems about right.

You are not allowed to stay based on retirement if you only have 50-60k a month. So obviously you are wrong

But plenty have pensions less than the 65k and make it up with cash sitting around.. Or borrow some for a few months..

I have seen loads of old codgers eeking by on 50k and under.. I am sure you have seen them sat on the concrete chairs out the front of the mom and pop store with the bottle of chang too.

Yet these are apparently better for the Thai economy than a dynamic young person, starting ventures, using local services, earning 150k a month..

Most of that kind of people are not the ones on "retirement visa" It's the younger border runners. I also see those drinking beer outside 7-11

[tlock]

I think the money should be raised.. 2 mil for retirement.. Far to many old codgers sitting around on 50 and 60k a month while us young uns pump 200k a month into the place..

Or starts a 30 years old and 2 mil a year.. Most of the younger guys I know are in the 150 plus spending monthly.. Seems about right.

You are not allowed to stay based on retirement if you only have 50-60k a month. So obviously you are wrong

But plenty have pensions less than the 65k and make it up with cash sitting around.. Or borrow some for a few months..

I have seen loads of old codgers eeking by on 50k and under.. I am sure you have seen them sat on the concrete chairs out the front of the mom and pop store with the bottle of chang too.

Yet these are apparently better for the Thai economy than a dynamic young person, starting ventures, using local services, earning 150k a month..

Most of that kind of people are not the ones on "retirement visa" It's the younger border runners. I also see those drinking beer outside 7-11

I honestly never realized how much you older guys hate us younger guys staying long term in thailand until this crackdown. FWIW I have taken the "if you don't like it, get out" (super creative btw) advice and am chilling in the PI until this blows over, but I'll keep it in mind when I come back.

I hope I don't hate young people when I'm old. Young people have alot of energy and stuff to feed off.

I feel like this is like racism. Maybe we need to create a venue (that doesn't involve competing for female attention) where you bitter old guys can meet us young guys and see we're just people too .

[LivinLOS]

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I think the money should be raised.. 2 mil for retirement.. Far to many old codgers sitting around on 50 and 60k a month while us young uns pump 200k a month into the place..

Or starts a 30 years old and 2 mil a year.. Most of the younger guys I know are in the 150 plus spending monthly.. Seems about right.

You are not allowed to stay based on retirement if you only have 50-60k a month. So obviously you are wrong

But plenty have pensions less than the 65k and make it up with cash sitting around.. Or borrow some for a few months..

I have seen loads of old codgers eeking by on 50k and under.. I am sure you have seen them sat on the concrete chairs out the front of the mom and pop store with the bottle of chang too.

Yet these are apparently better for the Thai economy than a dynamic young person, starting ventures, using local services, earning 150k a month..

This is part of the whole OP is it not? If a dynamic young person started venues using local services then he would be able to remain in Thailand legally as he/she would be starting/running/being involved with a legitimate business venture and entitled to the same work permit that the rest of us are entitled to?

I understand your point.. I think the issue is that as non Thai businesses, operating outside of Thailand, the need for Thai offices and staff is not up to speed with digital economy ways of working. Same as my points about location independent enterprises, or when is content creation work, what about content created elsewhere etc etc..

The rules as they currently stand are far more of a penalty for these kind of businesses than old school on the ground enterprises which are much more likely to need a local office and staff to help it operate.

[LivinLOS]

Re: All those changes to Thai Immigration Act, Foreign Business Act, etc., to quote Jimi Hendrix

I know what I want

But I just don't know, honey

How to go about getting it

Your still (purposefully) missing the point..

Its about whats good for Thailand, what does Thailand want ??

Until recently there was a sort of tolerance and accepted way in which these people could transit through and or stay for periods in Thailand, spending their cash. Having taken that route away, is Thailand happy to simply say goodbye to that cash ??

Some areas of the country probably dont see a lot of these people, Chiang Mai seems like one city that has many of them, I wonder how the yuppie wine bars and non girly bar side of town around Nimanheamin will do if they are to be made unwelcome. Will be interesting to watch.

[chrisinth]

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Most of that kind of people are not the ones on "retirement visa" It's the younger border runners. I also see those drinking beer outside 7-11

I honestly never realized how much you older guys hate us younger guys staying long term in thailand until this crackdown. FWIW I have taken the "if you don't like it, get out" (super creative btw) advice and am chilling in the PI until this blows over, but I'll keep it in mind when I come back.

I hope I don't hate young people when I'm old. Young people have alot of energy and stuff to feed off.

I feel like this is like racism. Maybe we need to create a venue (that doesn't involve competing for female attention) where you bitter old guys can meet us young guys and see we're just people too .

tlock,, I for one have nothing against younger people, I am only 58 and my memory is still good enough to remember when I was that age. The OP was started basically to look at the problems a group of people who are complaining, from the perspective of the different Thai governmental departments.

Two issues, living here and working here and what people are willing to do to accommodate the laws of the country.

IMHO, if you are working online and not prepared to do anything about it, then keep quiet and don't bring it to everyone's attention.

If you are not married, under 50 and earning good money, then do something about it like the rest of people living here on work permits have had to do. To expect a government to change policies and law for a relatively small group of people, because they can't be bothered is quite honestly arrogant at the least.

[JLCrab]

Your still (purposefully) missing the point.. Its about whats good for Thailand, what does Thailand want ??

I am not missing any point. Even if you think you know what is good for Thailand, Thailand thinks it knows what is good for Thailand and you would have to convince the powers-that-be that what they think is good for Thailand really isn't and you know better. Which even if you are right, is likely to receive the response: "Sorry, but I am late for another meeting."

[LivinLOS]

If you are not married, under 50 and earning good money, then do something about it like the rest of people living here on work permits have had to do. To expect a government to change policies and law for a relatively small group of people, because they can't be bothered is quite honestly arrogant at the least.

While for some its cant be bothered.. For others its that the Thai definition of work is basically nonsense, and what and how they create things simply doesnt fit in the current system.

Sure theres many who could get legal under the old way.. For whom an office and a support staff may make sense.. But theres others, who cant stop the money they make happening, who wish to visit Thailand.. once you have a strong residual built up, how do you stop it ?? But you cannot legalize it ??

[LivinLOS]

Your still (purposefully) missing the point.. Its about whats good for Thailand, what does Thailand want ??

I am not missing any point. Even if you think you know what is good for Thailand, Thailand thinks it knows what is good for Thailand and you would have to convince the powers-that-be that what they think is good for Thailand really isn't and you know better. Which even if you are right, is likely to receive the response: "Sorry, but I am late for another meeting."

I dont have to do anything.. It doesnt effect me..

I am simply posting opinions to a discussion thread on why some of the actions that Thailand is changing to, may be detrimental to Thailand.. and pushing back against some of the closed minds who seem to think only elderly people can retire, or 'just follow the rules' when the rules are out of date.

[JLCrab]

You're not pushing back on anything. You're just posting on a website.

Edited July 27, 2014 by JLCrab

[LivinLOS]

You're not pushing back on anything. You're just posting on a website.

So is that work ?? Do I need a work permit ??

[JLCrab]

You want to push back? Go get a bunch of the young wealthy expats who are being hobbled by the current archaic Immigration/Labor policies and hire Tilleke & Gibbins to put together a plan and lobby the key people. I have an NGO based in USA and you'd be amazed the response you can sometimes get when you put something in front of the right people where they can't ignore it.

[LivinLOS]

So do I need a work permit to post to a website ?? What about my own ??

See the issues ??

[JLCrab]

So do I need a work permit to post to a website ?? What about my own ??

See the issues ??

What issues?

To paraphrase Randy Newman (leave Your Hat On):

They say they know what's good for Thailand.

They don't know what's good for Thailand.

*I* know what's good for Thailand.

Edited July 27, 2014 by JLCrab

[LivinLOS]

So do I need a work permit to post to a website ?? What about my own ??

See the issues ??

What issues?

Earlier it was stated as tho there are no areas of the work permit law which are not clear in relation to online activity..

So again.. Is posting to a website working ?? If its so clear..

Or is it a maybe, depends on, etc.. Eg grey as I stated.

[SoFarAndNear]

If Thailand would change something we would see a massive increasing of online businesses with a Thai Company Limited...would make this country a hub for a online business startups...

[paddyjenkins]

what defines their job descriptions? What is the controlling body or circumstances (yes, contradiction in terms) that would allow the department of labor to consider issuing work permits for only them and not the next person who writes IT Nomad on their application?

There isnt one.. The authorities could, if they so wished, adapt the media visa to cover online media, hence blog publishing etc would fall under this remit.

There then comes the intense difficulty in verifying incomes and in many cases maintaining min wage etc.

Currently it seems clear the authorities dont wish to do this. Which is entirely their right. However when the definitions of work are so vague, huge grey areas appear, and you can hardly blame the people caught up without a visa class route to them, for staying in the grey area the current rules create.

LOS, agree with your points, very similar to mine. The internet is a huge grey area with no global regulations and a nightmare for any government to issue work permits, or rather regulate the issue of those permits where the definition of work is so general.

I know a lot of people living in Thailand, with the correct visas to satisfy immigration, however the majority of them are still in communication with businesses outside the country to one degree or another and are in effect ignoring the labour laws by doing so.

Taking interpretation to the limit, even people on this forum, by submitting advice and comments and improving the rating of the site could be defined as working.

I think it's time get serious, because this post and other are just total rubbish.

Work is the exchange of payment for labour or services on a mutually agreed basis. It's isn't any kind of human activity at all....breathing, eating, going to the toilet, chatting in a bar with friends, chatting in a bar with strangers....or posting a comment online to a forum to a bunch of strangers. That isn't work, it isn't business, it doesn't require any special visa. So stop talking so much rubbish.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Pattszero]

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If you can leave the country and not worry about the financial loss of leaving stuff behind you're a nomad. If you haven't put roots down by buying houses or businesses, you're a nomad. People exist in Thailand for years with a nomadic attitude, and they tend to be the happiest - they're here because they want to be here - not because they are trapped.

It doesn't matter what visa you're on - retirement/work/whatever - as long as you can leave in a heart-beat without worrying about what you leave behind - you are a nomad.

Non-nomads own houses/condos/businesses - or are tied to families. Some non-nomads can't afford the price of a flight home - non-nomads are stuck, they have to disentangle themselves to get out of the country. I'd guess that ninety-odd percent of long-stayers in Thailand take a nomadic attitude to the country. Even of they have been here for years, they will never allow themselves to be trapped in Thailand. I'd place a bet that ninety-odd percent of long=stayers in Thailand could leave within twenty-four hours and leave nothing of consequence behind.

So when do you stop being a nomad? when you put down roots that have to be ripped out to allow you to leave.

That applies to everyone. irrespective of age or length of time in the country.

"If you can leave the country and not worry about the financial loss of leaving stuff behind you're a nomad. If you haven't put roots down by buying houses or businesses, you're a nomad."

I would disagree. I meet all your criteria above, yet wouldn't consider myself a nomad. I have made sacrifices, rather adjustments, to remain in this country. I still have the freedom to travel anywhere I want, my wife would travel with me. To lose a car and a job would also be acceptable, but why would I want to? That to me is not being nomadic.

As with the OP, the majority of people chasing the criteria for "IT nomads" are in my opinion looking for long stay options to remain in Thailand, going against the description of their occupation. Also, the majority are not willing to make changes to accommodate the laws of the country, they want their cake and to eat it as well.

Nomadic is continually on the move.

I believe you work out of the county and you are constantly on the move?