Retirement / Long Stay - Questions

[silver sea]

I am a British subject; I am over 50; I no longer work, but have a UK work pension, and cash in a Thai bank account, the Siam Commercial Bank (SCB).

I am currently on a triple entry visa. It expires next month and so I fly back to the UK on 1st August. I will return to Thailand on 1st October. Next time, I would like to stay 12 - 15 months and so I would need something more than a tourist visa.

Being a UK resident, I could apply to the Royal Thai Embassy in London for an O-A (Long Stay) visa. I shall need to obtain criminal and medical reports and proof of finances.

According to the Embassy WEBSITE, however, these documents would have to be certified by a Notary Public. Having checked the Internet, Notary Publics, outside London, are likely to charge at least £210.00 (= 10,500 THB) per hour. That's in addition to the cost of getting the various documents and paying the fee for the O-A visa itself.

The second option would be to apply to the London Embassy for a Non Immigrant 'O' visa. This covers a number of categories including RETIREMENT. The sting in the tail, though, is that it is only 'Retirement (with state pension)'. Currently, in the UK, men do not receive their state pension until they are 65. So a 'Non O' is not for me.

The third and final option would be to return to Thailand on a single entry tourist visa; convert that visa to a Non O visa; and then apply for an extension of stay based on retirement.

The criminal and medical records would not be required.

This would be a lot cheaper and easier to achieve than applying for an O-A back in London.

My Questions:

1. I am not eligible for a Non O visa back in the UK. Although I am retired, I am not over 65 with a state pension, yet here in Thailand, I am eligible for a Non O, by way of a conversion. Why is that? I appreciate that the Non O visa in London is issued by the Embassy, which comes under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA), whilst the conversion to Non O visa is dealt with by Immigration, which is a separate government department. Normally, visas can only be granted outside Thailand, so is this some sort of concession or exception that the MFA has delegated to Immigration, together with different eligibility rules?

2. How long is the British Embassy letter confirming the amount of my pension valid for? Is it 6 months? If so, can I use it more than once if necessary?

3. Another TV member in another thread gave a link to a support group in Pattaya, which provides a useful fact sheet and guide to visas. Click HERE.

On page 6, it gives a useful tip:

"If you are using the combination of income and bank deposit to meet the financial resource requirement, there is no time requirement for how long the funds has been on deposit. Therefore if you have even only a small amount of monthly I income, you can obtain an Embassy letter/certification, and use the combination of income and funds in a Thai bank to avoid having to have the funds on deposit for the 60 (initial) / 90 days (renewal)."

Is that advice correct? On other threads, I recall only the 60 / 90 day rule being applied, even where it is a combination of income and funds.

[ubonjoe]

You could possibly get the single entry non-o for being 50 or over from one of the the consulates in the UK. The embassy will not do them even if you are over 65  because they will only do the OA visa.

You can do a change of visa status from a tourist visa to a 90 day non immigrant visa entry at immigration. You would need at least 15 days remaining on your 60 day entry to do it.

If you are applying in Pattaya for the change and are using the combination of money in the bank and income they would do the change and extension at same time because the go by the rule that the money just has to be in bank on the date you apply.

There are a few immigration offices that do not follow the rules and requires it to be in the bank for 60 days if using the combination method.

[OJAS]

Wow, the cost of notarising application & supporting docs for an OA visa has certainly jumped from the £140 I paid in 2008!

 

Of your options, I suspect that the third and final one is likely to be the most practicable in your case - especially if you're planning to base yourself in Pattaya since Jomtien Immigration will be able to process the Non-O conversion. On the other hand, were you to base yourself within the catchment area of a smaller immigration office you'd be more likely to be sent packing to Chaengwattana Immigration in Bangkok for this conversion.

 

In answer to your 3 questions:-

 

1. Basically the differences are, as you say, down to the London Embassy coming under the wing of the MFA and your local immigration office in Thailand coming under the wing of the Immigration Bureau. Joined-up government is an extremely alien concept here in LOS!

 

2. It is, indeed, valid for up to 6 months and AFAIK can only be used once. Hence you will probably require separate letters for the Non-O conversion and your eventual extension of stay application.

 

3. In theory, no seasoning is required for the bank balance element of income proof based on the "combination" method. In practice, however, an individual immigration officer is liable to insist on this depending on which side of the bed they got out of that particular morning - which you will find is a crucial determining factor on immigration-related matters in general!

Edited July 27, 2014 by OJAS

[silver sea]

Thank you Joe for your advice.

I currently live on Samui, and will be going back there in October; I have no plans to visit Pattaya.

Sorry, I confused you. For the past few days, I have been reading past threads on ThaiVisa relating to retirement. In one of the posts, a member gave a link to a Pattaya ex pat group or club which had drawn up a 'John and Jane' introduction to the different visas. I assumed that their fact sheet had general application to Thailand rather than being specific to Pattaya.

My local Immigration office is always likely to be Samui. Do you know if, like Pattaya, they would do the extension and conversion at the same time? I have visited them 4 or 5 times in the past and the staff members have always seemed ok and helpful. The only 'quirk' I have noticed is that they charge 1920 THB for the extension; the amount is printed on the reverse of their TM 7 form. Oficially, they say that the extra 20 THB is to cover photocopying charges.

Anyway, I have followed your advice about checking the UK Consulates. Hull and Liverpool specifically say that you have to be over 65 with a state pension. Birmingham makes reference to Category 'O', but does not say which groups are covered.

Cardiff does offer Non O ... but ... the income and savings requirements are more stringent: £1400 pm or £20,000 in your current account in the UK; no indication that you can do a 'combo'.

Click HERE.

The medical certificate is to show that you are in good health. I am not sure if that is a different requirement from the O-A's elephantiasis and leprosy. I will also need to get a criminal check.


Hello OJAS

Thank for your very helpful reply too and for dealing with each of my questions in turn.

This is the link to the Notary Public that I found on the Internet. His was the only one I checked; I am sure that his rates are competitively priced. Click HERE

At the moment, and having thought about both your posts, I still feel that applying for the conversion on Samui will be easier and cheaper.

[TerryLH]

Q 1

 

The embassy and consulates offer visas.  Immigration does not.

No conflict.

[ubonjoe]

Thank you Joe for your advice.

I currently live on Samui, and will be going back there in October; I have no plans to visit Pattaya.

Sorry, I confused you. For the past few days, I have been reading past threads on ThaiVisa relating to retirement. In one of the posts, a member gave a link to a Pattaya ex pat group or club which had drawn up a 'John and Jane' introduction to the different visas. I assumed that their fact sheet had general application to Thailand rather than being specific to Pattaya.

My local Immigration office is always likely to be Samui. Do you know if, like Pattaya, they would do the extension and conversion at the same time? I have visited them 4 or 5 times in the past and the staff members have always seemed ok and helpful. The only 'quirk' I have noticed is that they charge 1920 THB for the extension; the amount is printed on the reverse of their TM 7 form. Oficially, they say that the extra 20 THB is to cover photocopying charges.

Anyway, I have followed your advice about checking the UK Consulates. Hull and Liverpool specifically say that you have to be over 65 with a state pension. Birmingham makes reference to Category 'O', but does not say which groups are covered.

Cardiff does offer Non O ... but ... the income and savings requirements are more stringent: £1400 pm or £20,000 in your current account in the UK; no indication that you can do a 'combo'.

Click HERE.

The medical certificate is to show that you are in good health. I am not sure if that is a different requirement from the O-A's elephantiasis and leprosy. I will also need to get a criminal check.


Hello OJAS

Thank for your very helpful reply too and for dealing with each of my questions in turn.

This is the link to the Notary Public that I found on the Internet. His was the only one I checked; I am sure that his rates are competitively priced. Click HERE

At the moment, and having thought about both your posts, I still feel that applying for the conversion on Samui will be easier and cheaper.

What the consulates are showing on their websites is for multiple entry visas because they have to be approved by embassy. They can approve and issue a single entry.

The Pattaya expats club website info is specific to Pattaya.

As far as I know Samui does not do the the change and extension in one trip. Pattays and Hua HIn are only one that do it that I know of.

If you cannot get the non -o with ease then get the single entry tourist visa and do the change.

As soon as you have the money in the bank and the income letter you can do the change but before you get down to 15 days remaining on your entry. Then do the extension after 60 days.

[GeorgeKi]

I am also in the process of changing from a 1 year non-imm B to a retirement extension of stay. Thanks to help from board members I have a lot clearer idea what to do but I am still confused about one thing, the Immigration blurb states:

"He or she may apply for an extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau and may be granted such extension for a period of one year from the date of first entry into Thailand."

 

Does date of first entry mean the first day of the first 90 day entry stamp when I first used the one-year visa last December or the the first day of my next 90 day stamp in September? 

[bifftastic]

1. I am not eligible for a Non O visa back in the UK. Although I am retired, I am not over 65 with a state pension, yet here in Thailand, I am eligible for a Non O, by way of a conversion. Why is that? I appreciate that the Non O visa in London is issued by the Embassy, which comes under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA), whilst the conversion to Non O visa is dealt with by Immigration, which is a separate government department. Normally, visas can only be granted outside Thailand, so is this some sort of concession or exception that the MFA has delegated to Immigration, together with different eligibility rules?

 

I suspect it's because someone (with some power) in the Embassy in London got a bug up their arse about how they thought things should be done, and just decided not to issue Non-Imm O visas for retirement unless you are receiving the State pension.

 

They've also unilaterally decided to stamp 'employment prohibited' on Non-Imm O visas issued for those married to Thai nationals (which it isn't).

 

I would go for the conversion of visa status inside Thailand, even if Samui give you a bit of a run around, it's got to be better than jumping through all the hoops the RTE in London have invented.

[Mario2008]

I am also in the process of changing from a 1 year non-imm B to a retirement extension of stay. Thanks to help from board members I have a lot clearer idea what to do but I am still confused about one thing, the Immigration blurb states:

"He or she may apply for an extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau and may be granted such extension for a period of one year from the date of first entry into Thailand."

 

Does date of first entry mean the first day of the first 90 day entry stamp when I first used the one-year visa last December or the the first day of my next 90 day stamp in September? 

 

You are not conversing, you are simply changing your reason for an extension of stay which is something different.

 

What you do is simply apply for an extension of stay at immigration with the usual form from immmigration. (The same form you always use when you go for an extension, if you have done an extension before). As reason you just fil in "retirement" instead of work and you submit the correct paperwork for an extension of stay based on retirement.

 

You will get a 1 year extension, starting when the current permisison to stay ends.

[ubonjoe]

I am also in the process of changing from a 1 year non-imm B to a retirement extension of stay. Thanks to help from board members I have a lot clearer idea what to do but I am still confused about one thing, the Immigration blurb states:

"He or she may apply for an extension of stay at the Office of the Immigration Bureau and may be granted such extension for a period of one year from the date of first entry into Thailand."

 

Does date of first entry mean the first day of the first 90 day entry stamp when I first used the one-year visa last December or the the first day of my next 90 day stamp in September? 

That sounds more like something you would find on a embassy website. I don't recall seeing it on a immigration website.

Every extension starts from the date your current permit to stay ends. The only exception would when an extension is canceled and new one is applied for on that date but of course that would also be date your current permit to stay ends.

[silver sea]

Hello Joe

First, thank you, and of course to George and to the other mods as well, for all your good work in relation to liaising with Immigration. Much appreciated by us all.

I have been reading TheScarf's thread "Thai Immigration issues new police order 327/2557 effective August 29 2014. Click HERE,

In particular, I was looking at the second document, Immigration Bureau Order 138/2557, click http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=278456

I am posting my comments on this thread, partly because what I have to say is not entirely "on topic" with TheScarf's thread, above, and partly, because I am trying to keep any information relating to my intended visa application on one thread, which I can then refer back to, if necessary, at a later stage. I hope that that is ok.

Anyway, Order 138/2557 lists the documents that are required to be submitted with the extension of stay under each category.

Category 2.22, on page 15 of the Order, relates to retirement. It lists the documents required in support:

1. Application form;
2. Copy of applicant's passport;
3. Evidence of income such as retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or
4. Funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand, and a copy of a bankbook
5. Only in the Case of Criterion (6), the applicant must submit documents equivalent to Clauses 1-4 stated above.

There is no mention of medical or criminal reports. My local Immigration Office is Koh Samui. You may recall a recent thread, click HERE.

If you look at post 19, it would seem that Samui is one of those offices that does require a medical certificate.

My question is does this latest order supersede Samui's list of requirements or can they still ask for extra things?

The report may 'only' be 250 THB, but it seems an unnecessary waste of money, and of the hospital's time, if it is no longer required.

I am currently back in the UK, so I cannot check with Samui myself.

I have also been in correspondence with the Thai Consulate at Cardiff, which of course comes under the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA), and not the Immigration Bureau.

They were very surprised when I told them that, generally speaking, Immigration Offices in Thailand do not require sight of medical and criminal reports when converting a tourist visa into a Non Immigrant 'O' , and then subsequently, granting an extension of stay based on retirement,

If applying for a Non Immigrant from Cardiff, they say that you are legible:


"1) if you are over 65 years of age you must be claiming a STATE PENSION in order to qualify.

'2) If you are aged between 50-64 years of age pension does not come in to it, you must meet the following...
have a regular income of £1400.00 a month or a lump sum of £20,000.00 in a current account, not a saving account
a medical certificate confirming you have no infectious diseases (this can be no longer than 3 months old)
a police clearance with no past or present cautions or convictions (this can be no longer than 6 months old)

'You can apply for the non-immigrant 'O' visa here if you meet the above but you would then transfer it over to a non-immigrant 'OA' (Not an 'O' visa again) visa in Thailand if you are looking at the long stay visa. Category 'O' visa's can not be extended, they can only be converted. However if you are going to be applying with the RTE they can issue the Non-Immigrant 'OA' visa straight off, consulates are not able to issue that visa.

'You would also even if applying for the Non-Immigrant visa in Thailand still have to provide a medical certificate and police clearance, i am not sure who has advised that you would not, basically telling someone that you are healthy and have never been in trouble with the police would not be sufficient evidence."

Their advice seems to be very different from the advice given here on ThaiVisa!

They also confirmed that the RTE in London does not use the same financial criteria as the Immigration Bureau in Thailand [65,000 THB pm or 800,000 in the bank or combination thereof], and so the income and savings figures quoted above [ £1400 = 75,550 THB; £20,000 = 1,079,875 THB] are correct.

The very helpful person at Cardiff also confirmed that "... you cannot use a combination of money and income to total £20,000.00, it must be a lump sum of £20,000.00 that you have available ... [but] We would accept money from both UK bank and Thai bank account as long as both accounts added together exceeded the £20,000.00 required. "


In view of the stricter rules in the UK, it is my intention to buy a single entry visa from the Thai Embassy in London, and, notwithstanding, Cardiff's advice, once I'm in Thailand converting to a Non Immigrant 'O' and then seeking an extension of stay based on retirement.

[Expattaff1308]

Wow, the cost of notarising application & supporting docs for an OA visa has certainly jumped from the £140 I paid in 2008!

 

Wow I had mine done in 2008 and thought I got hard done by at 60 Quid!!

[silver sea]

There is one further matter that I should have added to my post above ( #11).

It is that the website for the Royal Thai Consulate at Cardiff is misleading. For their we page click HERE

It implies that those over 50 years of age are not eligible for single entry Category 'O's. Those listed as eligible are restricted to: "A voluntary Job, accompanying a spouse or parent who is working in Thailand."

Those over 50 are eligible for multi entry Category 'O's if they meet the financial criteria that I quoted in my earlier post.

When I queried with Cardiff as to why those over 50 are eligible for one but not the other, their representative kindly replied:

"Single or Multi O visas are applicable and available to over 50's provided they meet the financial criteria, provide recent Crb, Doctors letter etc etc. So plse disregard the website and note content of email below which we cnfm is correct."

The rest of their email that they refer to has already been quoted in my earlier post.

I hope that this is of interest.

[ubonjoe]

A medical certificate for extensions has not been required for about a decade I think. Samui and couple of others ask for it though. The new order probably will not change that.

The only place you can apply for a OA visa in the UK is at the embassy in London.

It seems London has put pressure on the consulates to not to do single entry non-o visas for being over 50. I think the embassy wants the OA visa business.

About the only choice for many people in the UK will be to get a single entry tourist visa and then do a change of visa status to get the non immigrant visa entry. And then the extension..

[paz]

Those over 50 are eligible for multi entry Category 'O's if they meet the financial criteria that I quoted in my earlier post.

When I queried with Cardiff as to why those over 50 are eligible for one but not the other, their representative kindly replied:

"Single or Multi O visas are applicable and available to over 50's provided they meet the financial criteria, provide recent Crb, Doctors letter etc etc. So plse disregard the website and note content of email below which we cnfm is correct."

 

May be you want to post at

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/747791-no-retirement-visa-for-uk-citizens-till-age-65

 

to let your fellow citizens know about that.