Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[TheChiefJustice]

Haddo - although this does appear to be rather odd, I am aware of a number of cases where birth certificates have been falsified. Given that you are applying in the family support category, one might perhaps understand a little more the rationale for the request. If you really want PR, you would be best not to complain about your human rights being violated. The best thing for you to do would be to pop along to the hospital and have the test taken. A DNA test does not take long, although I do not know how much it will cost.

[Haddo]

Haddo - although this does appear to be rather odd, I am aware of a number of cases where birth certificates have been falsified. Given that you are applying in the family support category, one might perhaps understand a little more the rationale for the request. If you really want PR, you would be best not to complain about your human rights being violated. The best thing for you to do would be to pop along to the hospital and have the test taken. A DNA test does not take long, although I do not know how much it will cost.

What these tests could inadvertently reveal are mistakes that parents might not be aware of, or might not wish to be have been made aware of - for example, a couple who have undergone IVF might discover a mistake has been made in switching the mother's egg or father's sperm. Or it could uncover an inadvertent baby mix-up in hospital.

Although I would guess these occurences are very rare, one never knows.

On the DNA test, we've made enquiries with the Police Hospital in Bangkok (opposite Erawan shrine). The fee is THB3000 per person for mother, father and child, so a total of THB 9000. The preferred method is a blood sample via a finger pin-prick. However the test results can take up to 2 months - but you should inform the immingration bureau once the test has been done, so they know it is "in progress" (the letter from the Immigration bureau asks for the RESULTS within 1 month).

Apparently also Chulalongkorn and other government hospitals offer these tests.

FWIW

[Haddo]

Further to my posting on the DNA test for Permanent Residency (Supporting Family category)

The test is actually carried out at the Insititute of Forensic Medicine (head for the 4th floor) on Henry Dunnant Road (in the same block as the Police Hospital though)

for anyone with GPS the coords are

N 13º 44' 36.8"

E 100º 32' 9.2"

They need Thai ID card, foreign passport, house registration, child's birth & your wedding certificates and the letter from the Immigration Office requesting the DNA test, plus photocopies.

There are a couple of forms to complete.

It is 3 x Bt3000 = Bt 9000 (for mother, father, and child)

They then take you to another room to be photographed - hands, feet!, head on, looking up, sideways, back of head! (the full criminal mugshot portfolio!)

You are then taken to another building for the actual test, where they prick your finger, and take a blood sample.

Office closes 3pm

[TheChiefJustice]

Well done, Haddo. This is very useful information for anyone else who is required to undertake this procedure. I wish you the best of luck with your application for PR.

[Haddo]

Well done, Haddo. This is very useful information for anyone else who is required to undertake this procedure. I wish you the best of luck with your application for PR.

thanks!

for info - here's a copy of the letter from immigration requesting the DNA test (personal details obscured)

[camerata]

What these tests could inadvertently reveal are mistakes that parents might not be aware of, or might not wish to be have been made aware of - for example, a couple who have undergone IVF might discover a mistake has been made in switching the mother's egg or father's sperm. Or it could uncover an inadvertent baby mix-up in hospital.

Although I would guess these occurences are very rare, one never knows.

Thais - and particularly the Thai Govt - aren't very sensitive to privacy issues, so I guess we just have to put up with this kind of thing if we want PR. Interesting that they are going high-tech, though.

[skippybangkok]

Invitation letter to pick up the PR finally came through........ About 19 months end to end. ( an more if u consider the pre-preparation of documentation.).

Apparently the last meeting was held 4th June.

My secretary did it all the documentation prep, no lawyer / consultant .

[danone]

Invitation letter to pick up the PR finally came through........ About 19 months end to end. ( an more if u consider the pre-preparation of documentation.).

Apparently the last meeting was held 4th June.

My secretary did it all the documentation prep, no lawyer / consultant .

congrats skippy!

so your name must be on this list:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/2noti...005EN02_195.doc

[skippybangkok]

Invitation letter to pick up the PR finally came through........ About 19 months end to end. ( an more if u consider the pre-preparation of documentation.).

Apparently the last meeting was held 4th June.

My secretary did it all the documentation prep, no lawyer / consultant .

congrats skippy!

so your name must be on this list:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/2noti...005EN02_195.doc

Thats a definite maybe . ( I am the stateless one )

p.s. Thanks...... Wonder what the benefits are other than not having to worry about having to leave, but as one famous inventor said after being asked what his invention could be used for, the answer was " I don't know, but I am sure the tax department will find a tax for it" ( so, I am not sure, but i am sure it will be useful int he future ).

Might go for Citizenship from here onwards.

[danone]

skippy: the main and only real benefit is piece of mind.

and to me thats worth something.

[CDB]

My name was also on that list. Like Skippybangkok I did it myself with only a little help from secretaries and admin people -- no lawyers or consultants involved.

I wonder about people saying there are no real benefits other than peace of mind:

* I don't need to have four Thais and 2 million baht of registered capital for my work permit. Considering I intend to work at multiple companies including some start-ups, with work permits needed for each position, that is a rather large benefit.

* When I asked at the Toyota showroom about buying a car on credit, the lady confirmed that as a single farang without residence, I would have to pay a larger downpayment - around 20%, but with PR I could get the same tiny deposit as offered to Thais (I may not want to buy that way, but it is nice to know)

* I own two condos but I am thinking of selling one to free up cashflow. Now I have the choice of getting a mortgage on it. I can buy new condos without fronting up the cash, if I want to.

* I will apply for Thai citzenship in five years, and there are obvious benefits of that in terms of owning companies, owning land and being a director of a public company.

[skippybangkok]

My name was also on that list. Like Skippybangkok I did it myself with only a little help from secretaries and admin people -- no lawyers or consultants involved.

I wonder about people saying there are no real benefits other than peace of mind:

* I don't need to have four Thais and 2 million baht of registered capital for my work permit. Considering I intend to work at multiple companies including some start-ups, with work permits needed for each position, that is a rather large benefit.

* When I asked at the Toyota showroom about buying a car on credit, the lady confirmed that as a single farang without residence, I would have to pay a larger downpayment - around 20%, but with PR I could get the same tiny deposit as offered to Thais (I may not want to buy that way, but it is nice to know)

* I own two condos but I am thinking of selling one to free up cashflow. Now I have the choice of getting a mortgage on it. I can buy new condos without fronting up the cash, if I want to.

* I will apply for Thai citzenship in five years, and there are obvious benefits of that in terms of owning companies, owning land and being a director of a public company.

Stand corrected. At this point the 2mb and 4 amployees is not an issue for me, but it might be one day soon . There are a few more benefits in terms of being more "trust worth", but only just. Guess the double pricing system in national parks still applies

[CDB]

A useful update and a reminder:

1) I went down to immigration today to collect my residence permit. I didn't have any letter of confirmation (I presume it went to my former employer who won't pass it on), merely the document on the Immigration website that showed my name was in the list of approved candidates.

They had no objection to processing my residence permit without the letter. They simply cross checked my name with their lists.

2) I came with a cheque for 191,400 but they would not accept it as it was a cheque drawn on my bank account as opposed to a cashier's cheque. Apparently the civil service never accepts personal cheques. Since getting a cashier's cheque requires taking cash out of the bank, they reckoned the easiest thing for me was to simply withdraw the fee in cash and come back tomorrow morning at 08:30 AM (before banks open)

CDB

[samran]

If you go to your own bank, they'll issue the cashiers check and simply debit your account. No physical cash need be handled (if I'm reading your concern correctly!).

By the way, congrats to you and skippy!

[Haddo]

We got a call from the Police forensics deaprtment yesterday saying that the DNA test results were ready to be collected - so it actually took just over a week, not the 4 weeks they said it might take.

I went and picked it up today - a letter that states (in Thai) that father and mother are indeed the genetic parents of their child.

I took this over to room 301 at Suan Plu (they've changed the table layout in there so it takes a second to work out where your contact person is) - I was told then that they have a lot more work on given the requirement for these new DNA tests.

now for the waiting ..... unless they come up with anymore requirements......

[CDB]

Thanks for all the help I've had over the past two years going through the process. I'm sure that when people are reading through these threads, they equate getting the residence permit with success, and perhaps don't fully consider the hassles that come after. Camerata did go through the processes that happen AFTER you get your letter telling your to pick up the residence permit, but I have some updates and personal observations.

1) Picking up the residence permit. It's still the case that you go to room 301 first, then they quickly cross check your name and send your down to room 202. You do not actually have to have the letter informing you to pick up your permit, just seeing your name on the website notice is enough.

When you go down to room 202, there is no queueing system, and you'll have gotten the notice simultanously with 200 other people. So be prepared for totally disorganized queueing and long waits, although I must say the immigration offices I dealt with were full of good humor. No personal checks allowed, so take a cashier's check, or cash. Cash was just fine for me -- the jokingly miscounted the 191,400 at first and asked for more money just to see the look on my face

There's a lot of stuff to be written into your permit so they usually say to come back the next day and pick it up. I asked them to let a secretary pick it up instead, and was told that was officially unacceptable, but they let me do it anyway. That can save you a lot of time.

You do get a letter in Thai telling you of the next steps, but that letter leaves out A LOT of requirements so don't rely on it.

At the beginning of the whole process, the immigration lady asked me if I needed to leave the country in the next 7-10 days -- because it was not going to be possible (she saw that I travelled frequently). This is my first note of warning: the paperwork and time required to get everything in order is excessive, so when you are ready to pick up your permit, don;t plan on leaving the country for 7-10 days and make sure you can take many days off work to cover the masses of paperwork and struggling with officialdom to come.

2) Picking up the Alien Identification Certicate. This is done at your local police station. But beware! Your first hurdle is finding the right police station. Since I live "Chong Nonsri, Yannawa" I was told to go to Yannaww Police Station -- whic you might think is logical...

They only do the work of processing these certificates during normal civil service hours (09:00-15:50 Monday to Friday) and you only have 7 days to do this from picking up your residence permit. The police downstairs had no idea where to go, expect that it was vaguely upstairs somewhere. So I wandered around looking at each door until I found one with the magic words "Tang Dao" (Alien) written on it. Once inside the office demanded a whole host of signed photocopies and six photos (not mentioned in the list given by immigration) so it was outside and back again. At that point, she told me that I was at the wrong police station! This station is only for Yannawa Sathorn side, she said. You have to go to Bangpongpang police station. I had never heard of Bangpongpang and it does not relate to my address, but I found it eventually.

Once there I was once again warned it could take some time to process, and that her "nai" was not around, and could I come back tomorrow to pick it up. I smiled and said I really needed it today so I got it the same day, albeit with a three hour wait. In Camerata's original post, he mentioned it took weeks, so I asked her about that, and she said normally you can pick it up the next day. I guess it might depend on the police station.

When it came to looking for blank registratiom books, she had to climb a step ladder and pull down a musty pile of blanks that hadn't been touched for a long time, covered in dust. They must have been printed 30 years ago because the pages were all yellow and cracking and printing looked like it was done in the seventies.

She said I would have to renew it every year and the fee was 1200 baht, not 400 baht as mentioned earlier. I asked about the five year extension and she said it was possible, and then proceeded to give me only a one year permit. Not sure what that was about...

I don't imagine you'll have any queueing at this stage because not many people come there for that purpose. If I can repeat an earlier original warning: if you are doing this at a small upcountry branch they may have to send to Bangkok for blank books which can cost you more time.

I'll also note that I did these processes without any accompanying Thai, but with hindsight, even though I read and speak Thai I might suggest bringing a pushy secretarial type with you...

3) Adding your name to a House Registration

This is the most frustrating so far. Having seen my girlfriend smoothly transfer herself to my house registration -- as Jao Bahn no less -- in 10 minutes, I didn't anticapte the hassle.

I own my condo, but since my gf is the "Jao Bahn" I had to drag her along too. As many people mentioned in earlier postings, if you rent a condo/house, this is where you might have all kinds of issues, especially if the official Jao Bahn is overseas.

After the obligatory queuing at Yannawa distract office, the gruff officer demanded a whole pile of extra photocopies and delighted in telling me I could not use any photcopier in plain sight, and to use a the private photocopying shop outside. When we returned 15 minutes later, telling him there was no such shop, at that point he mentioned the nearest place to do photocopies was at Tesco Lotus -- a taxi ride away. When we returned, they had closed for lunch. So one obvious warning is to always be armed with multiple signed photocpies of every page of everything. As I found, if you fail to photocopy an irrelevant blank page, they'll send you back for that.

Next I learned that they have to investigate the alien before adding them to the house registration. If you like, they can post the letter to immigration and wait for the posted reponse. That takes a month, so I'm sure everyone will simply play courier themselves.

So within a few days of receiving your residence permit, it ends up back in Immigration where they hold it for another 3-4 working days before you can take the approval letter back to he District office again. At this point I will have to drag 2 Thai witnesses to be interviewed -- during their working day no less.

When that is finally done, I can go back to Immigration one more time, and get my residence permit endorsed and get my multiple reentry permit done, so I can finally resume my work and my life...

It would be churlish to complain about all this compared to the hassles of others. But be forewarned that getting the residence permit is only the beginning of a lot of paperwork hassles....

[TheChiefJustice]

CBD, you have done well. Look upon all of this as an interesting experience, which is certainly is. Well done for not getting your knickers twisted. I remember when I went to my district office to have myself put on the blue tabian baan as the jao baan. Well, excuse me! What a frightful drama that caused. The initial reaction was simply "No, a foreigner cannot be the jao baan" - although there was an admission that a foreigner with PR was entitled to have his or her name in the blue tabian baan. Of course, I smiled and asked why that was the case. I was told that it was the law. Again, smiling politely, I asked to see a copy of the relevant regulation for my edification. The officer scurried off into a back room, emerging with a possy of other officers, all of whom espoused the same view that a foreigner could not be registered as the jao baan. I asked once again to see the relevant regulations. The possy retreated momentarily, one of the group deciding to call someone from another district office for advice. After about half an hour, I was called to the desk and asked to speak to the head honcho. He asked me why I wanted to be the jao baan. Well, I explained, I am the owner of the condominium and I believe that it is only right and proper that I be registered in the tabian baan as the jao baan. He then confessed that he found this all highly irregular but at the same time admitted that there was, in fact, no prohibition. As such, he agreed to allow me to be registered. The whole episode took almost 2 hours.

Smile, be polite, but stand your ground. It always seems to work for me.

[grtaylor]

I was interviewed in February this year, and when I went back to Immigration in June to have my 'permit to stay' extended for another six months, they pointed out that one document in my submission had not been certified correctly. I was with the guy from my office, who dealt with this as soon as he could. No problem.

Then, while I am away on holiday in the UK, two more letters arrive, asking for 5 more documents, which are not on their list of required stuff! They want to see the letter offering me my job (nearly 9 years ago!), and more comprehensive tax returns from my employer. They seem to be moving the goalposts . . .

Has this happened to anyone else in this round of applications?

G

[skippybangkok]

LOz of text

Great post. I am going soon, but too busy still traveling. Looks like i will have a repreieve from traveling for 7-10 days . Yipeeeeeee.

Looks like alot of messing around........ i have yellow tabien baan already, so i guess one less hassle. As a PR holder, can I change that to a blue one ? ( I own the condo )

[sabaijai]

LOz of text

Great post. I am going soon, but too busy still traveling. Looks like i will have a repreieve from traveling for 7-10 days . Yipeeeeeee.

Looks like alot of messing around........ i have yellow tabien baan already, so i guess one less hassle. As a PR holder, can I change that to a blue one ? ( I own the condo )

Is there any advantage to having your name on the blue one as opposed to the yellow one?

[skippybangkok]

Not sure as well......

[TheChiefJustice]

The blue ทะเบียนบ้าน, also known as ทะเบียนราษฎร (ท. ร. 14), and the yellow ทะเบียนบ้าน, also known as ทะเบียนราษฎรคนต่างด้าว (ท. ร. 13), are basically the same thing - an official document evidencing place of residence. The blue ท.ร. 14 is for Thai nationals or for foreigners who have PR (ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ and ใบสำคัญประจำตัวคนต่างด้าว), while the yellow ท.ร. 13 is for non-immigrants (foreigners resident temporarily in the Kingdom in accordance with applicable immigration regulations). If you get PR, you are required to have your name put into a ท.ร. 14. Other than as a reflection of resident status, I do not believe that the blue ทะเบียนบ้าน carries any advantages over the yellow one.

[skippybangkok]

The blue ทะเบียนบ้าน, also known as ทะเบียนราษฎร (ท. ร. 14), and the yellow ทะเบียนบ้าน, also known as ทะเบียนราษฎรคนต่างด้าว (ท. ร. 13), are basically the same thing - an official document evidencing place of residence. The blue ท.ร. 14 is for Thai nationals or for foreigners who have PR (ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ and ใบสำคัญประจำตัวคนต่างด้าว), while the yellow ท.ร. 13 is for non-immigrants (foreigners resident temporarily in the Kingdom in accordance with applicable immigration regulations). If you get PR, you are required to have your name put into a ท.ร. 14. Other than as a reflection of resident status, I do not believe that the blue ทะเบียนบ้าน carries any advantages over the yellow one.

Thanks..... guess I will have some more home work to do then. Any advice..... i have just moved house, and the Mrs. owns the house, but I still own the condo. We have not sold the condo yet, and as such, should I get a blue Tabien baan for that, or should I put my self on the Mrs Blue tabien baan ?

[brianinbangkok]

I have Question : If I get a new workpermit now that I have a PR , do they still need to stamp anything in my passport when they issue a workpermit to me as holder of a PR ?

As I have a PR should they not base my workpermit on that as my passport has no more Visa so whats the point of putting anything in my passport ?

They are not going to give me 7 days to leave Thailand or cancel my "Visa" if I quit a job and hand in my WP.

My PR status and WP are completly separate issues !

But then again is this too much logical thinking on my part ?

[TheChiefJustice]

There will not be anything stamped in your passport. All you will receive is a work permit of 12 months duration. Any stamps go in the work permit, not in your passport.

[brianinbangkok]

Well the HR called the labour department and they said they would stamp my passport with an entry that says they issued me a workpermit , but only that.

[TheChiefJustice]

YOu should tell them you do not need any such stamp in your passport.

[skippybangkok]

Part 1

Just to help any next generation - Started the process today. Will not write as extensive as CBD, but here is what I think you need

- 12 Pictures 4x6, but they only used 4 in this round.

- 2 copies of Tabien baan

- 1 FULL copy of passport, by "full", i mean page with face / details, last multiple- entry visa, last visa stamp, and in my case cause its a new passport, the thai stamps for transferring to a new passport

- Cashier Cheque ( cash if u want, but I dont like cash being handled)

- Original Passport

- Original Tabien Baan.

Process

1) go to Room 301 which we all know, which takes about 5 mins

2) send u down to room 202 to pay. In this room they fill out some more forms for you, ur little black book, a few thumb prints and thats about it.

Note, for those of you with a Yellow Tabien baan who own your own condo, they dont accept / want it. They told me i need a blue one. Told them its my own condo, and they dont give a Blue one to a foreigner, unless you have a PR. But immigration people dont want to give PR until have a blue one. Bit like chasing ones tail.

To resolve it, they said " just ask them for a blank blue one" ( i suspect they need the number on the book ? ). They were very nice to me, and we ended up chatting about all kinds of stuff, and finally they said "never mind, just do the police reporting and blue Tabien baan in one shot.

Took about an hour +, but if we did not chit chat that much, maybe less.

You need to wait one day to pick up the documents to go to police station, and as per CBD ( thanks by the way ), its a "secret" you can send some one else to pick it up. Dont tell any one though !

Part 2

Some time next week maybe

[brianinbangkok]

YOu should tell them you do not need any such stamp in your passport.

I did tell em that but the labour department guy stamped my passport anyway with a text that shows he issued a workpermit and when it expires and said "this makes it easier to come into Thailand because I have a job in Thailand , clearly this guy does not understand I have a PR and have no problem to enter or stay in Thailand, then he proceeded to tell me I needed to show my workpermit at the police station that issued the red Foreigner ID book.

So I went there , the police officers asked me why I came as I do not need to report a workpermit at all and they copied my passport page that had been stamped by the labour department with the words let that guy at the labour office call us on monday and we will have a little chat with him.....

[CDB]

- 12 Pictures 4x6, but they only used 4 in this round.

In my case:

4 for the Residence permit (Immigration)

6 for the Alien Registation book (Police Station)

5 for adding my name to the existing house registration -- most farcical part of the process -- (District Office)

1 for a multiple reentry permit (Immigration)

I guess that is a minimum of 15 pics, 16 if you want to leave the country. Mind you, the District office ones are a smaller size (one inch) so hopefully you can "cut yourself down to size". The registrar in the District office handed the girlfriend a knife and ruler and got her to work...

STOP PRESS: When I was shorthanded in the District office I arranged for girlfriend to deliver those the next day. Without much hope I asked would he accepted home printed photos. No problem, he said. Dunno if this is now true of all civil service because it would be a great time-saver (and money saver), if so. So I sat at home against a white wall and snapped myself with my mobile phone and printed out on a inkjet photo printer on photo paper. Photos accepted! Till now, if there was a remote suspicion that they were home printed they would not be accepted.

But anyway, the updated advice is probably to 16 photos shot in a way that you can cut some to 1 inch size.

- 2 copies of Tabien baan

You might as well get loads of copies of everything as at each stage they will demand multiple photocopies of everything. Sign every page of course and in the District Office I was asked to print my name under each one.

Cashier Cheque ( cash if u want, but I dont like cash being handled)

yes, no personal cheques. I used cash, since I wanted to be at Immigration by 08:30 and did not want to have to make a trip to the bank (which opened later and in the opposite direction) to get a cashier's cheque

The sheet with instructions that Immigration gives you does not cover the concept of turning up at the District Office for your house registration, then being told there has to be an investigation, whereby you take the letter requesting an investigation (from the Registrar) back to Immigration who hang on to your new residence permit for a few days, then you get a letter from Immigration approving that the residence permit is genuine(!), then you go back to the District Office with that letter, and they tell you come back again another day when it is done. Three extra trips! And BTW if you want to change to be the "Jao Bahn" (Head of Household) that cannot be done the same trip. It is another trip in another section.