Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Arkady]

There is always the Administrative Court if a serious wrong has been committed.

That is true but it is a long winded, complex process and Thai courts are not particularly confidence inspiring. Some one who has been denied a work permit or visa is unlikely to want to seek redress by taking on the national police force in an opaque judicial process that might take years. They have to get on with their lives. Most are going to either set up 4 fake Thai employees or seek work elsewhere. Of course, if one has been unfairly stripped of PR or Thai nationality, it would probably be worth filing a case in the Administrative Court. assuming that one isn't also deported or forced to seek work abroad.

I can remember one case of a Swiss man who sued Purachai in the Admin Court for denying his application for PR without reasonable cause. The court took over two years to come to a ruling that the interior minister was under no obligation to give a reason for denying PR because it is up to his discretion under the Immigration Act and is not subject to appeal or judicial review - basically a feudal system.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Kind of like applying for a US visa.

[PH59]

HI All,

All seems very quiet on news of approvals. Has anyone who has been doing their 6 month renews recently heard anything?

Has there been any approvals in last 2 months?

[Arkady]

HI All,

All seems very quiet on news of approvals. Has anyone who has been doing their 6 month renews recently heard anything?

Has there been any approvals in last 2 months?

The supply of approvals signed by Yongyuth must have dried up some time ago and Jaruphong clearly hasn't signed any yet. He seems to have been under great pressure over a number of other issues, such as the recent Bkk governor election, the constitutional amendments and the Southern unrest. There are loads of pics in the ministry's website of him chairing meetings about how to improve conditions in the South and greeting loyal Thais wearing sarongs and Islamic caps but none of him or the permanent secretary chairing meetings about PR or citizenship. Yongyuth was also PT party leader and under similar pressures but the big difference is that he was a former permanent secretary of the Interior Minister himself and had a thorough knowledge of all the ministry's processes and obviously took some pride in keeping all the bureaucratic wheels rolling simultaneously and knew which buttons to press. Fingers crossed that Jaruphong will get round to signing some PR and citizenship applications before he inevitably takes the fall. He has the look of a seat warmer about him - a party loyalist who needs to be rewarded with his year in the top job before making way for another.

[sas_cars]

Just read the news in the Nation that the current interior minister Charupong's days are numbered. So hopefully maybe a good news for those waiting for PR and citizenship.

here's the source http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Charupongs-days-are-numbered-30205820.html

[GarryP]

Well the new minister may not be any better. The only thing we can be sure of is that he can't be any worse. Ideally for those in the PR or citizenship queues, they should bring back Yongyuth, but that is never going to happen. Someone of his ilk would certainly be appreciated.

[Arkady]

Just read the news in the Nation that the current interior minister Charupong's days are numbered. So hopefully maybe a good news for those waiting for PR and citizenship.

here's the source http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Charupongs-days-are-numbered-30205820.html

Probably good riddance to bad rubbish, if he goes, but as Garry said, there is no guarantee of a successor that is any more user friendly to foreigners cooling their heals while waiting for the minister's precious signature. At the outset it looked as if the current guy was being a stopgap being rewarded for his loyalty to the party and the S family with a few months in the top job before retirement. They seemed only interested in his role in pushing for charter amendments and amnesty and I guess the lack of concrete progress over those issues is why The Nation is suggesting he has got a bad mid term performance review which may turn out to be the end of term in his case. Anyway he seems not to have done anything for PR and citizenship applicants. There is no evidence to suggest he has approved a single PR or citizenship and, since he took over the job six months ago there have been only two "monthly" interview sessions for citizenship candidates, thereby increasing the backlog further.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Arkady

[tamvine]

Just read the news in the Nation that the current interior minister Charupong's days are numbered. So hopefully maybe a good news for those waiting for PR and citizenship.

here's the source http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Charupongs-days-are-numbered-30205820.html

Only glimmer of hope seems to me is in case of new IM be former interior minister Chidchai Vanasatidya.

Since he has had experience in the ministry like K. Yongyuth, there may be some files on PR be considered.

Till something happens BE PATIENT fellows even though it is painful.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Chidchai is a good man.

Just pray Bhokin doesn't get the portfolio.

[hansened]

Interesting story. I've been in Thailand 15 yrs and not have the retirment visa; marred etc but that sure does not get me a residence visa; Past info has always told me getting married does not give me residency either. I've read I must speak fluent Thai to even consider it.

But then again; what does having it do for me ?

I can get house papers and complete all papers , transfers etc just as any company etc. ?

You still have the same in country visiting rights; retirement visa still has to report in every 3 months; and still prove income . WE still must renew to give uip your baht; and start the yearly visa process all over again.

Does residency take care of these yearly hassles and anything else ?

Does it make any difference if you hav a running business/company ?

[hansened]

Who knows. !. What does citizenship do for those living here ?

Perhaps some benefits ifyou have a company or employ others.

[Arkady]

Interesting story. I've been in Thailand 15 yrs and not have the retirment visa; marred etc but that sure does not get me a residence visa; Past info has always told me getting married does not give me residency either. I've read I must speak fluent Thai to even consider it.

But then again; what does having it do for me ?

I can get house papers and complete all papers , transfers etc just as any company etc. ?

You still have the same in country visiting rights; retirement visa still has to report in every 3 months; and still prove income . WE still must renew to give uip your baht; and start the yearly visa process all over again.

Does residency take care of these yearly hassles and anything else ?

Does it make any difference if you hav a running business/company ?

The rule of thumb is that, if you have to ask this sort of question, PR is not for you. So be happy as you are and don't worry about it.

[BigC]

thanks for that information

just a quick question

Entitled to apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Do you get an ID number once you have completed the process?

[hansened]

thanks for that information

just a quick question

Entitled to apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Do you get an ID number once you have completed the process?

Why do you want to be a citizen. ? Maybe depends on the country your coming from ?

[hansened]

Just read the news in the Nation that the current interior minister Charupong's days are numbered. So hopefully maybe a good news for those waiting for PR and citizenship.

here's the source http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Charupongs-days-are-numbered-30205820.html

We hope you don't believe what is in the papers !!

[Arkady]

Just read the news in the Nation that the current interior minister Charupong's days are numbered. So hopefully maybe a good news for those waiting for PR and citizenship.

here's the source http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Charupongs-days-are-numbered-30205820.html

We hope you don't believe what is in the papers !!

Jatuporn is being tipped for Deputy Interior Minister in the upcoming cabinet reshuffle. Perhaps Jeff Savage will be offered a complimentary PR after his blacklisting has been revoked under Chalerm's amnesty law. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtfUy16X9Q0. His Thai wife must be pining for him to come back to Pattaya.

[Dork]

thanks for that information

just a quick question

Entitled to apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Do you get an ID number once you have completed the process?

Once PR has been granted you need to have your name listed in a blue Tabien Baan (Thor Ror 14) at which stage you will be issued with a national ID number starting with 8.

After that you are entitled to apply for an ID card for non-Thai citizens which will use the same number.

[Arkady]

thanks for that information

just a quick question

Entitled to apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Do you get an ID number once you have completed the process?

Once PR has been granted you need to have your name listed in a blue Tabien Baan (Thor Ror 14) at which stage you will be issued with a national ID number starting with 8.

After that you are entitled to apply for an ID card for non-Thai citizens which will use the same number.

That is the stage you will be assigned a 13 digit ID number with the prefix 8 by the centralised district office computer system which will be used as your tax ID and on your driving licence thencforth. A couple of posters in this thread have reported that they got alien ID cards using this number. I haven't tried to apply for one of these and I think that not all district offices will issue them to PRs, although there seems to be nothing in the regulations to say they can't. The problem with them is that they seem to be intended for stateless persons and there is wording on the back that says the holder is prohibited from leaving his district without permission. Without that wording I might be interested.

One thing I don't know is what type of ID number, if any, do they put on yellow TR 13 tabien baans for non-PRs. Anyone know this?

Edited May 19, 2013 by Arkady

[ThaiLawOnline]

I talked with some immigration officers in Bangkok this week, some of the officers responsible for permanent residency in Thailand.

I wanted to clear out if really, nobody was granted permanent residency since 2006.

They refused to give us documents but talked openly. They explained clearly the full process but again, verbally.

Yes, since 2006 things have changed. Since 2 years, to what I know, you can apply in ANY immigration office for permanent residency but it is all treated in Bangkok.

Before, and you can correct me if I am wrong, all applications needed to be in Bangkok.

Immigration files the case, prepare the documents, does the tests but each case must be approved by the cabinet. So there is a political decision at one point.

That is why immigration was not comfortable to say if X or Y will be accepted. They base their decision on the file they have, according to the different categories.

As you know, they normally ope application for permanent residency in December. They prepare cases until February. An interview is normally requested and a also Thai test.

At the interview, they make you fill a kind of statement.

This year (December 2555), about 260 people applied in who Thailand. So these people are under investigation now.

Last year (2555 are applications of 2554) around 100 people were granted PR according to the officers we talked to. The year before (2554 for the previous year) NO APPLICATION WAS GRANTED.

That was a political decision. Again, I have no proof of that but I have no reason to disbelieve the officers we talked to and they were very nice.

This year, because more than 200 people applied, the Thai test has been divided in 2.

Half of applicants already had it and half will do it this month. Immigration must give their recommendation based on their files to the cabinet in September.

This is what we were told... The immigration officers in Bangkok for permanent residency are at desk D in the immigration center, the huge one, with many government buildings near the ministry of foreign affairs.

I hope this help.

[Dork]

After that you are entitled to apply for an ID card for non-Thai citizens which will use the same number.

That is the stage you will be assigned a 13 digit ID number with the prefix 8 by the centralised district office computer system which will be used as your tax ID and on your driving licence thencforth. A couple of posters in this thread have reported that they got alien ID cards using this number. I haven't tried to apply for one of these and I think that not all district offices will issue them to PRs, although there seems to be nothing in the regulations to say they can't. The problem with them is that they seem to be intended for stateless persons and there is wording on the back that says the holder is prohibited from leaving his district without permission. Without that wording I might be interested.

Having used the pink ID card for a couple of months now I am convinced that the concern about the wording on the back of the card is a red herring. Yes it does say that the holder may not leave the local area unless they have permission. But by definition a holder of PR has permission and the fact that the ID number starts with 8 is proof of that. You could argue that a competent official that doesn't know that could demand proof. But that would only be an extreme case where it is likely that the holder was being checked for some other reason. And at that level even the foreign born holder of a Thai citizens ID card might well be checked as to whether said card was genuine and not one of the many illegally issued Thai ID cards. In any case, it is an unequivocal form of photo ID when used in Thailand.

There are other tangible benefits to the card too e.g. using it as your registered ID at banks so that every time you need to activate a new credit card or similar you don't have to rack your brains for which previous passport number they have on record. The same would go for mobile phone or other utility registration. And a waterproof plastic card is a lot easier to keep on your person than a passport.

Yes it's true that many district offices (mine included) may initially refuse to issue the card but on presentation of documents backing up a PR's right to such a card, including some signed by the minister of Interior, they have no choice. You can also get in touch with BORA who will also back up your assertion.

So far I have used the card multiple times for domestic flights and checking into hotels. The reactions have ranged from nonchalance to mild surprise but none has questioned my right to use this card in lieu of a passport.

[asiaexpat]

thanks for that information

just a quick question

Entitled to apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Do you get an ID number once you have completed the process?

Once PR has been granted you need to have your name listed in a blue Tabien Baan (Thor Ror 14) at which stage you will be issued with a national ID number starting with 8.

After that you are entitled to apply for an ID card for non-Thai citizens which will use the same number.

That is the stage you will be assigned a 13 digit ID number with the prefix 8 by the centralised district office computer system which will be used as your tax ID and on your driving licence thencforth. A couple of posters in this thread have reported that they got alien ID cards using this number. I haven't tried to apply for one of these and I think that not all district offices will issue them to PRs, although there seems to be nothing in the regulations to say they can't. The problem with them is that they seem to be intended for stateless persons and there is wording on the back that says the holder is prohibited from leaving his district without permission. Without that wording I might be interested.

One thing I don't know is what type of ID number, if any, do they put on yellow TR 13 tabien baans for non-PRs. Anyone know this?

I do not have PR, only Non-O with extension and my Yellow tabien baan number starts with 6.

[Mario2008]

Per above, if no PR the number for a foreigner starts with a 6.

[Mario2008]

This year (December 2555), about 260 people applied in who Thailand. So these people are under investigation now.

Last year (2555 are applications of 2554) around 100 people were granted PR according to the officers we talked to. The year before (2554 for the previous year) NO APPLICATION WAS GRANTED.

That was a political decision. Again, I have no proof of that but I have no reason to disbelieve the officers we talked to and they were very nice.

That year PR applications were simply not open. You can only apply after applications are opened, usually 2 weeks in December.

[skippybangkok]

What happens if u forget the 5 yearly visit to Police by a few weeks ?

[Dork]

What happens if u forget the 5 yearly visit to Police by a few weeks ?

I believe it is just a small fine which the police will levy on top of the renewal fee. There were a couple of posts about that a few months ago but I can't remember which thread.

From memory, someone mentioned that the fine is stipulated in the Alien Certificate itself. If that's the case, then the fine is probably set at post WW2 levels.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Dork

[skippybangkok]

What happens if u forget the 5 yearly visit to Police by a few weeks ?

I believe it is just a small fine which the police will levy on top of the renewal fee. There were a couple of posts about that a few months ago but I can't remember which thread.

From memory, someone mentioned that the fine is stipulated in the Alien Certificate itself. If that's the case, then the fine is probably set at post WW2 levels.

Thanks... Was sweating for a while. Not sure if I am within or past due. Will find out soon,

[Arkady]

What happens if u forget the 5 yearly visit to Police by a few weeks ?

You get a small fine. I have missed this but when I moved house I didn't get around to checking out of my police precinct and checking into the new one for about 3 months - a laborious process which involves the first precinct sending your alien book to the new cop shop with a whole load of documents and it takes about 3 weeks to arrive. I was fined Bt 100. The maximum fines probably haven't been revised up since the 50s.

The renewal date is mentioned in your alien book. You certainly won't be the first, if you have missed the renewal. It's hard to remember something that happens every 5 years.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Arkady

[Arkady]

After that you are entitled to apply for an ID card for non-Thai citizens which will use the same number.

That is the stage you will be assigned a 13 digit ID number with the prefix 8 by the centralised district office computer system which will be used as your tax ID and on your driving licence thencforth. A couple of posters in this thread have reported that they got alien ID cards using this number. I haven't tried to apply for one of these and I think that not all district offices will issue them to PRs, although there seems to be nothing in the regulations to say they can't. The problem with them is that they seem to be intended for stateless persons and there is wording on the back that says the holder is prohibited from leaving his district without permission. Without that wording I might be interested.

Having used the pink ID card for a couple of months now I am convinced that the concern about the wording on the back of the card is a red herring. Yes it does say that the holder may not leave the local area unless they have permission. But by definition a holder of PR has permission and the fact that the ID number starts with 8 is proof of that. You could argue that a competent official that doesn't know that could demand proof. But that would only be an extreme case where it is likely that the holder was being checked for some other reason. And at that level even the foreign born holder of a Thai citizens ID card might well be checked as to whether said card was genuine and not one of the many illegally issued Thai ID cards. In any case, it is an unequivocal form of photo ID when used in Thailand.

There are other tangible benefits to the card too e.g. using it as your registered ID at banks so that every time you need to activate a new credit card or similar you don't have to rack your brains for which previous passport number they have on record. The same would go for mobile phone or other utility registration. And a waterproof plastic card is a lot easier to keep on your person than a passport.

Yes it's true that many district offices (mine included) may initially refuse to issue the card but on presentation of documents backing up a PR's right to such a card, including some signed by the minister of Interior, they have no choice. You can also get in touch with BORA who will also back up your assertion.

So far I have used the card multiple times for domestic flights and checking into hotels. The reactions have ranged from nonchalance to mild surprise but none has questioned my right to use this card in lieu of a passport.

Dork, this is interesting. Could you please cite the documents you presented to the amphur including the ones signed by the IM. Others may be interested in trying this. Also, please excuse my ignorance but what is BORA? I had also somewhat assumed that the right to move outside one's district is automatically granted if you have PR but you might need to show your alien book etc to prove this, in the unlikely event that a farang would be challenged. It does raise the issue of what is the point of an alien book.

I might give this a try out of curiosity. Driving licence is accepted for most purposed but not by banks when you want to withdraw cash.

[jayboy]

Can't for the life of me see the point of such an ID card.If one was posted to me I would certainly keep it but it doesn't actually provide me with other than what I already have.

Furthermore I don't think one can just dismiss the evidence that it is intended for a completely different purpose as a "red herring".

Some may have a different approach to life, but I simply couldn't be bothered explaining to bemused officials why I hold a strange card.

My bank is quite happy with a driving license (lifetime in my case) for security on the rare occasions I withdraw cash.As Arkady suggests it also serves for other ID purposes - checking in at hotels.

My credit cards here are activated without ID at all, just the usual security questions - DOB, Mum's maiden name etc etc.

In short not in the slightest bit interested.

[Arkady]

I talked with some immigration officers in Bangkok this week, some of the officers responsible for permanent residency in Thailand.

I wanted to clear out if really, nobody was granted permanent residency since 2006.

They refused to give us documents but talked openly. They explained clearly the full process but again, verbally.

Yes, since 2006 things have changed. Since 2 years, to what I know, you can apply in ANY immigration office for permanent residency but it is all treated in Bangkok.

Before, and you can correct me if I am wrong, all applications needed to be in Bangkok.

Immigration files the case, prepare the documents, does the tests but each case must be approved by the cabinet. So there is a political decision at one point.

That is why immigration was not comfortable to say if X or Y will be accepted. They base their decision on the file they have, according to the different categories.

As you know, they normally ope application for permanent residency in December. They prepare cases until February. An interview is normally requested and a also Thai test.

At the interview, they make you fill a kind of statement.

This year (December 2555), about 260 people applied in who Thailand. So these people are under investigation now.

Last year (2555 are applications of 2554) around 100 people were granted PR according to the officers we talked to. The year before (2554 for the previous year) NO APPLICATION WAS GRANTED.

That was a political decision. Again, I have no proof of that but I have no reason to disbelieve the officers we talked to and they were very nice.

This year, because more than 200 people applied, the Thai test has been divided in 2.

Half of applicants already had it and half will do it this month. Immigration must give their recommendation based on their files to the cabinet in September.

This is what we were told... The immigration officers in Bangkok for permanent residency are at desk D in the immigration center, the huge one, with many government buildings near the ministry of foreign affairs.

I hope this help.

Interesting regarding the recent applications but I am not sure they explained the legal structure perfectly. I think they overstated the case of the cabinet's involvement. In the 1979 Immigration Act the cabinet's role is limited to approving the annual immigration quota (Section 40) and you can find announcements of these cabinet resolutions in the Royal Gazette each year that Immigration opens the window for applications. Of course it is a formality because they have always set the maximum quota by law of 100 per nationality and 50 stateless persons without variation even once. It is a curious almost annual ritual celebrating the end of mass Chinese immigration celebrated by cabinet ministers whose forefathers entered the Kingdom by the very same mass immigration route.

Beyond that resolution there is no further formal involvement by the cabinet. It is the Immigration Commission that has the power to set conditions and grant permanent residence with the approval of the interior minister (Sections 6,7 and 41). When I applied in the late 90s I was introduced to a Pol Maj Gen at Immigration who explained the procedure in those days. After the various tests and interviews and document checking at Immigration candidates were put up to an internal committee within Immigration and those deemed qualified were put up to the Immigration Commission which, in those days, met once a quarter, since it was policy to clear the entire previous year's batch before opening for applications again at the end of the year. If your application needed a push for some reason, you needed a supporter on Immigration's internal committee and another on the Immigration Commission and you were done. Those applications approved by the Commission were forwarded to the Interior Ministry for the Interior Minister's signature which was a foregone conclusion within about 3 months and the first batch of the year was signed around June, 6 or 7 months after application.

The law has not changed at all since then and the regulations have only been fine tuned to make the documentation more onerous and increase income thresholds and the fees, plus the addition of ludicrous requirements like photographs of married couples sitting on the marital bed and DNA testing for Thai children. It is basically up the interior minister and I doubt whether many governments have cared to get involved beyond the mandatory setting of quotas. If any had felt strongly about it they would surely have amended or replaced the now 34 year old law that actually harks back little changed apart from the quotas to the original 1927 Immigration Act. The first signs that things were starting to go haywire where when the xenophobe Purachai (desite his own PR and landed property in New Zealand) became interior minister under the first Thaksin government and started interfering with the PR and citizenship processes demanding checking and re-checking, accusing Immigration and Special Branch of corruption by passing applications of completely useless foreigners who were probably involved in criminal activities. Many applicants for both were rejected out of hand and others were delayed for 3 years or more. One rejected Swiss PR applicant tried unsuccessfully to sue Purachai in the Administrative Court for rejecting him without giving a reason.

Since Purachai's interference the policy of approving PR applications within one year has never reinstated by successive ministers. The entire process seems to have come under a cloud with no one willing to sign anything either way for fear of either being accused of corruption or being sued in the Administrative Court. The opportunity for corruption is limited since foreigners who weren't brought up in the kleptocracy culture are likely to scream blue murder if asked for a bribe. Ministers seem to have decided it was not worth the trouble in the limited time that most have in the job. More urgent political priorities and better revenue generating opportunities compete for their time.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Arkady