Usufructs being denied now?

[cheeryble]

I saw in Ask the Lawyer him mentioning the detail of a usufruct.

I've recently been told usufruct snare now being frowned on (Hang Dong Land Office in CM was mentioned.

I found this odd as I have actually been recommended a usufruct by the head of a. LO....though that was perhaps three years ago.

So are usufruct being denied?


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[prism]

How reliable is your source? I'd like to hear from a lawyer that does usufructs or habitation contracts in the CM area. Would be important if you decide to buy a house.

Don't see why they would frown upon it, it still benefits the Thai person in the long run.

Edited July 29, 2014 by prism

[jacky54]

Land office in Samut Prakan had never even heard of them when I went there last year, they just said no.

[cheeryble]

Land office in Samut Prakan had never even heard of them when I went there last year, they just said no.

Perhaps you should try the term in Thai:

Sit it gep gin

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[b17]

I went to the Chiang Rai land office yesterday and had absolutely no difficulty getting an usufruct - took about 90 minutes and cost me 85 baht.

[Chicken George]

Not a problem in Chiang Rai. Myself and three friends all did one each in the last 2 months. The Land office even explained it all in great detail the options. 75baht total cost including 2 copies of contract. Sounds like this is just chinese wispers...

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Edited July 29, 2014 by Chicken George

[chiang mai]

I was offered an usufruct in Hang Dong Land Office in CM via Sumalee at 29 Tanin, it's not a problem.

[dru2]

I went to the Chiang Rai land office yesterday and had absolutely no difficulty getting an usufruct - took about 90 minutes and cost me 85 baht.

Same for me at the Hang Dong land office earlier this year. They were efficient and helpful.

[jesimps]

I tried 2 years ago to get one at the Pattaya land office and was refused. I then saw a lawyer who confirmed this for 750 baht! As far as I know, nothing there has changed.

[bushwacker]

i tried in Chum-Saeng, Nakhon Sawan last year and was told could only be done for a Thai to a Thai.

[Westaurel]

I went to the Chiang Rai land office yesterday and had absolutely no difficulty getting an usufruct - took about 90 minutes and cost me 85 baht.

Is the owner your Thai wife/girlfriend ?

Because I hear about people said if it's your wife's owning the land as you have a married status in Thailand under "Sin Somros"

Section 1474 marital assets (matrimonial or common jointly owned property between husband and wife) is under Thai law called 'Sin Somros' and consists of:

1.property acquired during marriage

if you divorce, you will get half of house if acquired during marriage time also no need to do a sit thi gep gin because they will just write at Thi Din (Land Department) that you are her husband !

Does anyone can confirm it or is it wrong ?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Westaurel

[cheeryble]

Is the owner your Thai wife/girlfriend ?

This is relevant as I believe contracts cannot be made between official husband and wife as they are in law one person (sort of hermaphrodyte?)......it's a reason business-oriented Thais don't get married as well as both having to sign just about anything of consequence.

Dru 2?

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[stgrhe]

Land office in Samut Prakan had never even heard of them when I went there last year, they just said no.

It has happened in other places too, and that is why it is vital to have a Thai lawyer with you who can argue your case.

Other places have been asking 'tea money' for the process.

[UKJASE]

i had to pay 10,000B in an envelope (which she kindly provided), plus the 75 baht (for which i got a receipt!) at hua hin land office about 6 months ago

she was having none of it without the tea money she said

(i think she needed a new tyre on the Mercedes)

[jacky54]

Land office in Samut Prakan had never even heard of them when I went there last year, they just said no.

Perhaps you should try the term in Thai:

Sit it gep gin

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Good point, but they also told us a husband (falang) could not inherit the house and have a year to sell it. Went again with somebody last week for house purchase transfer and a bribe was paid just to do their job, 1.000 baht.

Edited July 29, 2014 by jacky54

[JesseFrank]

Land office in Samut Prakan had never even heard of them when I went there last year, they just said no.

Perhaps you should try the term in Thai:

Sit it gep gin

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Good point, but they also told us a husband (falang) could not inherit the house and have a year to sell it. Went again with somebody last week for house purchase transfer and a bribe was paid just to do their job, 1.000 baht.

They were correct that the farang has to sell the house withing a year if he inherits it.

[dru2]

Is the owner your Thai wife/girlfriend ?

This is relevant as I believe contracts cannot be made between official husband and wife as they are in law one person (sort of hermaphrodyte?)......it's a reason business-oriented Thais don't get married as well as both having to sign just about anything of consequence.

Dru 2?

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Honestly, I don't know.

I am not married, but I have been living with the same woman for 18 years. I bought the land in her name, two days later we went to register usufruct in my name. This is now entered on the back of the chanouat - it says quite clearly (and specifically) in Thai that Thai national so and so (my partner) has agreed for me to hold and use the land until my death. My name is recorded on the chanouat in full in Thai.

Sorry not to be of more help.

[JesseFrank]

Is the owner your Thai wife/girlfriend ?

This is relevant as I believe contracts cannot be made between official husband and wife as they are in law one person (sort of hermaphrodyte?)......it's a reason business-oriented Thais don't get married as well as both having to sign just about anything of consequence.

Dru 2?

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A Usefruct between 2 legally married people has no real value as it can be canceled by either party at any time.

[Pib]

It varies from land office to land office as to how receptive they are to usufructs. Kinda like how immigration offices around the country seem to apply some of the immigration laws/rules differently. I got one around 6 years ago here in Bangkok.

[nickcar]

What about a usufract before marriage, and then afterwards legally married?

[UKJASE]

Is the owner your Thai wife/girlfriend ?

This is relevant as I believe contracts cannot be made between official husband and wife as they are in law one person (sort of hermaphrodyte?)......it's a reason business-oriented Thais don't get married as well as both having to sign just about anything of consequence.

Dru 2?

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A Usefruct between 2 legally married people has no real value as it can be canceled by either party at any time.

i dont believe this is true Jesse, are you sure?!

[nickcar]

What about a usufract before marriage, and then afterwards legally married? Still have legal value?

[nickcar]

Anybody done a Usufruct in Nakhon Nayok?

[JesseFrank]

Is the owner your Thai wife/girlfriend ?

This is relevant as I believe contracts cannot be made between official husband and wife as they are in law one person (sort of hermaphrodyte?)......it's a reason business-oriented Thais don't get married as well as both having to sign just about anything of consequence.

Dru 2?

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A Usefruct between 2 legally married people has no real value as it can be canceled by either party at any time.

i dont believe this is true Jesse, are you sure?!

I'm only a parrot here to confirm Cheerybie's suspicions, as I was always told that a contract between man and wife will be invalidated on divorce.

Do a search for usufruct in the lawyer forum

[chiang mai]

+1 re. the above.

[UKJASE]

i dont believe this is true Jesse, are you sure?!

I'm only a parrot here to confirm Cheerybie's suspicions, as I was always told that a contract between man and wife will be invalidated on divorce.

Do a search for usufruct in the lawyer forum

the lawyers on this forum often recommend a usurfuct as a good way to protect yourself against your partner selling the land / denying you access

if they could be so easily cancelled, i am sure the lawyers would not be recommending them

[Raesum]

I am at my wits end with this usufruct business. Today my (Thai) husband and I went to the Land Dept in Bangkok to "register a usufruct"They told us to go to our local amphur(exactly where we went about 2 months ago to be told "No can do".)

So back we went to Bangsue amphur. It looked hopeful initially when the guy said he could make up a deed today for us.It all boiled down in the end to a deed could be made up so I could live on our land (in our house) for a year but after that it must be sold.What a waste of time-this is the law anyway.

The guy at the Bangsue amphur said there is no such thing as a foreigner being able to live here in their marital house for the rest of their life.He said he phoned his boss who said the same and also the Land department who said there is no such law regarding foreigners! They must sell after 1 year.This is the 5th place we have been. If it wasn;t family land I'd say_lets move to Chiang Rai!!!Seems they are clued up. Also hubby said that the Thai translation for usufruct translates to "rental agreement/business agreement and infers this is whilst the land owner is alive"

[cheeryble]

I am at my wits end with this usufruct business. Today my (Thai) husband and I went to the Land Dept in Bangkok to "register a usufruct"They told us to go to our local amphur(exactly where we went about 2 months ago to be told "No can do".)

So back we went to Bangsue amphur. It looked hopeful initially when the guy said he could make up a deed today for us.It all boiled down in the end to a deed could be made up so I could live on our land (in our house) for a year but after that it must be sold.What a waste of time-this is the law anyway.

The guy at the Bangsue amphur said there is no such thing as a foreigner being able to live here in their marital house for the rest of their life.He said he phoned his boss who said the same and also the Land department who said there is no such law regarding foreigners! They must sell after 1 year.This is the 5th place we have been. If it wasn;t family land I'd say_lets move to Chiang Rai!!!Seems they are clued up. Also hubby said that the Thai translation for usufruct translates to "rental agreement/business agreement and infers this is whilst the land owner is alive"

Not a lawyer but certainly wrong on some counts.

A deed is not made up except on newly registered land.

Normally, a contract is made and registered against both copies of the deed.

A usufruct is one such type of contract and an example can often be bought in the copy shop near a Land Office for pennies.

Where the year came from have no idea, a usufruct can be for a period or for life.

The "life" means not, repeat not, the land owner but the life of the usufructee.

(The land owner's heirs or purchasers must honour the lien)

What's more....the usufructee can lease the land onwards to a third party for up to 30 years the day before he dies.

This means a usufructor is always likely to come to an arrangement as otherwise they will be unlikely to be able to use the land in their lifetime (they can sell with the lien, but the lease will radically affect the value, just as the mere legal possibility of leasing on affects the value even before it's considered for leasing.).

Foreigners must only sell within one year if they are silly enough to contract to do so or if they inherit or otherwise come into possession of land such as a purchase being later invalidated. Happily they will receive the new market price and of course a friend can go and buy it so they may not even have to move out.

(In fact it might be 6months or a year not sure)

Hope that helps.

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Edited July 30, 2014 by cheeryble

[UKJASE]

I am at my wits end with this usufruct business. Today my (Thai) husband and I went to the Land Dept in Bangkok to "register a usufruct"They told us to go to our local amphur(exactly where we went about 2 months ago to be told "No can do".)

So back we went to Bangsue amphur. It looked hopeful initially when the guy said he could make up a deed today for us.It all boiled down in the end to a deed could be made up so I could live on our land (in our house) for a year but after that it must be sold.What a waste of time-this is the law anyway.

The guy at the Bangsue amphur said there is no such thing as a foreigner being able to live here in their marital house for the rest of their life.He said he phoned his boss who said the same and also the Land department who said there is no such law regarding foreigners! They must sell after 1 year.This is the 5th place we have been. If it wasn;t family land I'd say_lets move to Chiang Rai!!!Seems they are clued up. Also hubby said that the Thai translation for usufruct translates to "rental agreement/business agreement and infers this is whilst the land owner is alive"

Not a lawyer but certainly wrong on some counts.

A deed is not made up except on newly registered land.

Normally, a contract is made and registered against both copies of the deed.

A usufruct is one such type of contract and an example can often be bought in the copy shop near a Land Office for pennies.

Where the year came from have no idea, a usufruct can be for a period or for life.

The "life" means not, repeat not, the land owner but the life of the usufructee.

(The land owner's heirs or purchasers must honour the lien)

What's more....the usufructee can lease the land onwards to a third party for up to 30 years the day before he dies.

This means a usufructor is always likely to come to an arrangement as otherwise they will be unlikely to be able to use the land in their lifetime (they can sell with the lien, but the lease will radically affect the value, just as the mere legal possibility of leasing on affects the value even before it's considered for leasing.).

Foreigners must only sell within one year if they are silly enough to contract to do so or if they inherit or otherwise come into possession of land such as a purchase being later invalidated. Happily they will receive the new market price and of course a friend can go and buy it so they may not even have to move out.

(In fact it might be 6months or a year not sure)

Hope that helps.

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Cheeryble, could the wife of the Usufructee cancel the contract if the relationship went sour, without the usufructee's permission, as someone stated earlier in this thread?

[JesseFrank]

i dont believe this is true Jesse, are you sure?!

I'm only a parrot here to confirm Cheerybie's suspicions, as I was always told that a contract between man and wife will be invalidated on divorce.

Do a search for usufruct in the lawyer forum

the lawyers on this forum often recommend a usurfuct as a good way to protect yourself against your partner selling the land / denying you access

if they could be so easily cancelled, i am sure the lawyers would not be recommending them

I think there is a difference between partner and spouse.