Israel and Hamas agree to unconditional 72-hour ceasefire

[webfact]

New Gaza humanitarian truce agreed by Israel and Hamas

WASHINGTON: -- Israel and Hamas have agreed to an unconditional 72-hour humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza from 08:00 (05:00 GMT) on Friday.

A joint US and UN statement urged all parties to "act with restraint" until the ceasefire begins. Talks on a more permanent truce are to start in Cairo.

Since Israel began its offensive in Gaza on 8 July, 1,422 Palestinians have been killed, most of them civilians, according to Gaza's health ministry.

Fifty-six Israeli soldiers have died.

Two Israeli civilians have been killed, as well as a Thai national in Israel.

Israel says its operation in Gaza is designed to defend its population from attacks by Palestinian militants.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/28596609

[bbc]2014-08-01[/bbc]

[arjunadawn]

There is a fairly unfamiliar concept to the west which is widely practiced in Islamic warfare. It involves entering into treaties and cease fires only long enough or at all, to further entrench forces and strengthen yourself, only! Otherwise you give no quarter to the infidel, even if they are "of the Book."

While the West thinks cease fires represent the adults coming to the table to make best effort, in the practice and history on Islamic warfare these times require specific actions and preparations to further jihad. In clear holy mandate it's authorized to lie and enter into treaties and cease fires until your position is made better, then to continue war.

With Israel likely wanting a peaceful environment and safe/stable trading partners, and Hamas (and more or less Fatah) wanting the destruction of Israel, it's hard to see on what fulcrum peace may be leveraged- they both remain worlds apart. Until you can know your enemy you can never prevail.

[kblaze]

There is a fairly unfamiliar concept to the west which is widely practiced in Islamic warfare. It involves entering into treaties and cease fires only long enough or at all, to further entrench forces and strengthen yourself, only! Otherwise you give no quarter to the infidel, even if they are "of the Book."

While the West thinks cease fires represent the adults coming to the table to make best effort, in the practice and history on Islamic warfare these times require specific actions and preparations to further jihad. In clear holy mandate it's authorized to lie and enter into treaties and cease fires until your position is made better, then to continue war.

With Israel likely wanting a peaceful environment and safe/stable trading partners, and Hamas (and more or less Fatah) wanting the destruction of Israel, it's hard to see on what fulcrum peace may be leveraged- they both remain worlds apart. Until you can know your enemy you can never prevail.

 

 

Are you serious? You don't think Israel is strengthening its forces and preparing for another assault? You think the IDF is just like "Alright, ceasefire time! everybody just chill!"

 

They just called up 16,000 more troops yesterday!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/israel-calls-up-reservists-rejecting-calls-gaza-ceasefire

 

Furthermore, they are still going to have troops in Gaza "blowing up tunnels"!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/gaza-ceasefire-deal_n_5639436.html

 

In fact, I'd reckon that every army, in every conflict in the world takes the opportunity in a ceasefire to restock and reload. Why wouldn't you? Strange that you try to frame it as a purely Islamic Jihad-type of move.

 

And regarding the part in bold, what makes you think that?

[Jonmarleesco]

'... 1,422 Palestinians have been killed, most of them civilians ... ... Two Israeli civilians have been killed ...' If those figures are even close to accurate, the Israelis should have a lot of explaining to do. But with the Jewish vote to consider, I doubt the US will be doing much pushing.

[Ulysses G.]

Actually, the Palestinians "should have a lot of explaining to do." Why would anyone be stupid enough to constantly provoke such a superior enemy, by shooting thousands of rockets at them on almost a daily basis? Any country would respond with massive military force.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

 

There is a fairly unfamiliar concept to the west which is widely practiced in Islamic warfare. It involves entering into treaties and cease fires only long enough or at all, to further entrench forces and strengthen yourself, only! Otherwise you give no quarter to the infidel, even if they are "of the Book."

While the West thinks cease fires represent the adults coming to the table to make best effort, in the practice and history on Islamic warfare these times require specific actions and preparations to further jihad. In clear holy mandate it's authorized to lie and enter into treaties and cease fires until your position is made better, then to continue war.

With Israel likely wanting a peaceful environment and safe/stable trading partners, and Hamas (and more or less Fatah) wanting the destruction of Israel, it's hard to see on what fulcrum peace may be leveraged- they both remain worlds apart. Until you can know your enemy you can never prevail.

 

 

Are you serious? You don't think Israel is strengthening its forces and preparing for another assault? 

 

 

 

Of course they are. Anyone with a brain expects Hamas to continue the hostilities. However, as he so obviously meant, Israel wants a peaceful solution to the whole conflict. All Hamas wants is to wipe every Jew in Israel out.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

Cease fires don't stop wars unless the original motive for fighting has been removed. Hamas want Israel's destruction, whereas Israel want to neutralize Hamas as a threat to its citizens. Israeli troops now have to dig in in hostile territory while Hamas fighters rest and no doubt set up more booby traps and human shields in UN property. Meanwhile so called aid convoys can stream towards Gaza, such as the last Turkish aid, which consisted of ball bearings and cement mixers.
Any so called 'humanitarian' gains will no doubt be paid for in the blood of Israeli soldiers and eventually perhaps even more Palestinian blood if Israel is delayed too long in finally neutralizing Hamas. Talks are a waste if time as death is in the DNA of Hamas who will either kill or be killed, their breaking of the last four cease fires in a row should demonstrate that to all but the terminally deluded.


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[realenglish1]

'... 1,422 Palestinians have been killed, most of them civilians ... ... Two Israeli civilians have been killed ...' If those figures are even close to accurate, the Israelis should have a lot of explaining to do. But with the Jewish vote to consider, I doubt the US will be doing much pushing.

 

 The Israeli s have nothing to explain . Hamas fired the rockets unprovoked at Israel . Israel is protecting its citizens  and Hamas brought this on itself. Maybe Hamas should have explained to its peopple that they are going to fire rockets at Israel and some of the Gaza citizens are going to loose their lives because Israel will surly respond. Do you think they would accept that . Now way.

 

I feel for the people in Gaza but Israel was provoked and has the right to defend itself at all costs.

 

Remember Israel is defending itself and you can spew as much as you want to but then ask yourself this Question. If Hamas did this to the United States how would the USA respond?

 

I think 10 fold .

So think about your answer before you write something like that

[arjunadawn]

There is a fairly unfamiliar concept to the west which is widely practiced in Islamic warfare. It involves entering into treaties and cease fires only long enough or at all, to further entrench forces and strengthen yourself, only! Otherwise you give no quarter to the infidel, even if they are "of the Book."

While the West thinks cease fires represent the adults coming to the table to make best effort, in the practice and history on Islamic warfare these times require specific actions and preparations to further jihad. In clear holy mandate it's authorized to lie and enter into treaties and cease fires until your position is made better, then to continue war.

With Israel likely wanting a peaceful environment and safe/stable trading partners, and Hamas (and more or less Fatah) wanting the destruction of Israel, it's hard to see on what fulcrum peace may be leveraged- they both remain worlds apart. Until you can know your enemy you can never prevail.

 
 
Are you serious? You don't think Israel is strengthening its forces and preparing for another assault? You think the IDF is just like "Alright, ceasefire time! everybody just chill!"
 
They just called up 16,000 more troops yesterday!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/31/israel-calls-up-reservists-rejecting-calls-gaza-ceasefire
 
Furthermore, they are still going to have troops in Gaza "blowing up tunnels"!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/gaza-ceasefire-deal_n_5639436.html
 
In fact, I'd reckon that every army, in every conflict in the world takes the opportunity in a ceasefire to restock and reload. Why wouldn't you? Strange that you try to frame it as a purely Islamic Jihad-type of move.
 
And regarding the part in bold, what makes you think that?

Yes, I'm serious. Does my posting strike you otherwise. Israel inherently has the ability to utterly destroy Hamas in total war. Israel may even be able to mitigate all regional enemies, but at tragic cost. Israel's imperative therefore is survival. War hinders the Jewish state not empowers.

War empowers Hamas. Hamas et al exist as a victim class and engender this by facilitating the inevitable asymmetrical casualties that result. Any peace with Israel would not be supported by the Hamas and other players that benefit personally in the billions of dollars. Moreover, regional instigators would never allow it.

Israel re positioning forces results because of the same reason they know the sun will rise tomorrow- because it always has. Likewise they know that the ceasefire is likely meaningless PR drivel on behalf of Hamas- a militant arm of the Muslim brotherhood. That the casualties are disproportionate reflects only the willingness of Hamas to martyr innocents, as reflected everywhere by similar ideologies.

Israel could totally wipe out all memory Of all of them. They don't need to regroup.

[Steely Dan]

Three hours in and Hamas break the truce, for the ninth time in a row.

http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/9272/



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[arjunadawn]

Three hours in and Hamas break the truce, for the ninth time in a row.

http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/9272/



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Exactly as I suggested; Israel knows the ceasefire won't hold because it's designed to calculate opinion, consolidate forces, evaluate battle damage, and position for next conflagration. Unquestionably, there must be a solution, but any student of history knows there has never been an entity called the Palestinian State until recently. The "Palestinians" were those various Arabs, even of mixed faith, that lived in the levant, Transjordan region.

These people did not force the Jews into the second diaspora, the Romans did in approx 70CE. Various peoples have migrated to and through this region since, but the historical fact and injustice of the Jews of 70CE has been a constant reality for of Western knowledge- uninterrupted, non disputed. Indeed, for millennia Jews pray "Next year in Jerusalem." The massive influx of Jews after WW2 might have been enabled by genocide but it certainly was not because of recent persecution.

Jews were there first. Jews were forced out. Rome ruled the levant as a backwater province. Arab Muslims came next. Arab Muslims loathe Jews as the product of "apes and pigs." Britain then ruled the levant as their follow up to the fall of Acre. Arab Muslims entered into deep and vast agreements with Hitler's Germany in the 1930's. Hitler was defeated. The British Mandate carved up Transjordan as Jews were already now widely displaced as refugees. General Moshe Dyan declared the State of Israel. Arab Muslims enacted the first of two mass exodus' into The Hashemite Kingdom proper, and elsewhere. This hemorrhage was stopped by their brother Arabs and Arab Muslims and now found themselves in a Jewish land were livid. On various occasions since the combined military might of the entire Arab world colluded to destroy the children of "apes and pigs." Israel persevered, evaluated the geography that enabled the surprise attacks, and held this now captured land- to ensure survival, not praeda preda. The Arab Muslims invented the State of Palestine, and if it being occupied. Fair enough. I would have also. But it was invented.

One simply cannot dismiss the historical context. This knowledge informs any understanding of credibility, roads to success in peace, and areas where pressure should be brought to leverage peace. "Palestinians" do not want peace. They want to force, at any cost, Israel to reveal it's disproportionate power, it might, it's "Holacuast-like" behavior toward local Arab Muslims. They want to cripple Israel in the court of public opinion. They want to leverage International recognition into legislative condemnation of Israel. By victimization they further this perception. Utterly a tool of total war; an underdog tool. They also want to borrow time in the hopes other regional players join the fray, or another intifada can be mustered.

[daveAustin]

Actually, the Palestinians "should have a lot of explaining to do." Why would anyone be stupid enough to constantly provoke such a superior enemy, by shooting thousands of rockets at them on almost a daily basis? Any country would respond with massive military force.

I don't think so. Other countries may ponder what has passed: chronic land encroachment, control of borders, oppression etc. All very one-sided and there doesn't seem to be any humanity. But we're not talking about a normal country are we, and the rub is, would Israel go in so heavy-handed if Palestine had even one quarter of their firepower? Very easy when one knows one won't get one's arse kicked.

[kblaze]

Three hours in and Hamas break the truce, for the ninth time in a row.

http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/9272/



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Its disputed who broke the truce. There is no consensus. 

 

What is known, is that the truce was BS to begin with. Israel was allowed to keep its forces in Gaza and keep searching for and blowing up tunnels. How do they search for tunnels? In homes. 

 

What kind of truce is that where one side continues with military operations?

Edited August 1, 2014 by kblaze

[ggold]

 

Three hours in and Hamas break the truce, for the ninth time in a row.

http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/9272/



Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

Its disputed who broke the truce. There is no consensus. 

 

What is known, is that the truce was BS to begin with. Israel was allowed to keep its forces in Gaza and keep searching for and blowing up tunnels. How do they search for tunnels? In homes. 

 

What kind of truce is that where one side continues with military operations?

 

 

which army would give up held positions in a short truce. None. A humanitarian truce is to allow for the  removal of wounded combatants. Not to give the opposition a chance to consolidate its positions.

 

[Ulysses G.]

would Israel go in so heavy-handed if Palestine had even one quarter of their firepower? Very easy when one knows one won't get one's arse kicked.

Israel was vastly outnumbered and outgunned in the first few wars against the Arabs, but they totally kicked butt anyway, so, the answer is, that they would go in much harder if the Palestinians were better armed.

[dexterm]

 

 

There is a fairly unfamiliar concept to the west which is widely practiced in Islamic warfare. It involves entering into treaties and cease fires only long enough or at all, to further entrench forces and strengthen yourself, only! Otherwise you give no quarter to the infidel, even if they are "of the Book."

While the West thinks cease fires represent the adults coming to the table to make best effort, in the practice and history on Islamic warfare these times require specific actions and preparations to further jihad. In clear holy mandate it's authorized to lie and enter into treaties and cease fires until your position is made better, then to continue war.

With Israel likely wanting a peaceful environment and safe/stable trading partners, and Hamas (and more or less Fatah) wanting the destruction of Israel, it's hard to see on what fulcrum peace may be leveraged- they both remain worlds apart. Until you can know your enemy you can never prevail.

 

 

Are you serious? You don't think Israel is strengthening its forces and preparing for another assault? 

 

 

 

Of course they are. Anyone with a brain expects Hamas to continue the hostilities. However, as he so obviously meant, Israel wants a peaceful solution to the whole conflict. All Hamas wants is to wipe every Jew in Israel out.

 

 

If Israel wanted a peaceful solution they have had 60 years to sort one out..the latest being the whole  Arab world’s willingness to recognize the state of Israel in 2002 and 2007 within secure permanent borders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

All Israel has done is grab more land illegally and move the goalposts since 2007 now demanding recognition of the Jewish State of Israel. A powerful right wing Zionist faction now wants to annex the whole of the West Bank, make its Palestinian inhabitants speak Hebrew and pledge loyalty to a Jewish state otherwise they will be denied citizenship. That’s Israel’s idea of a peaceful solution...to wipe Palestinians out of their own land.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israeli-right-says-no-to-two-states-yes-to-greater-israel/2013/11/05/aa9068ee-454d-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html

[dexterm]

Cease fires don't stop wars unless the original motive for fighting has been removed. Hamas want Israel's destruction, whereas Israel want to neutralize Hamas as a threat to its citizens. Israeli troops now have to dig in in hostile territory while Hamas fighters rest and no doubt set up more booby traps and human shields in UN property. Meanwhile so called aid convoys can stream towards Gaza, such as the last Turkish aid, which consisted of ball bearings and cement mixers.
Any so called 'humanitarian' gains will no doubt be paid for in the blood of Israeli soldiers and eventually perhaps even more Palestinian blood if Israel is delayed too long in finally neutralizing Hamas. Talks are a waste if time as death is in the DNA of Hamas who will either kill or be killed, their breaking of the last four cease fires in a row should demonstrate that to all but the terminally deluded.


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27 Palestinians were killed and 100 injured in an Israeli attack near the southern town of Rafah after the ceasefire began.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28603599

 

Israel broke the ceasefire not Hamas. Israel started this present round of violence on June 13th and they want to continue it..it's a great vote winner.

[F430murci]

Cannot broker a peace deal with someone that has no control over its terrorists out in the field. Hamas command has very kittle power over those out in the field and did not deny the suicide bombing and kidnapping that occurred moments after the cease fire. Bad move based on last IDF response when soldier was kidnapped. This is about to get extremely ugly now. How do you fight nuts like Hamas that actually want Israel to cause collateral civilian damage.

[F430murci]

Cease fires don't stop wars unless the original motive for fighting has been removed. Hamas want Israel's destruction, whereas Israel want to neutralize Hamas as a threat to its citizens. Israeli troops now have to dig in in hostile territory while Hamas fighters rest and no doubt set up more booby traps and human shields in UN property. Meanwhile so called aid convoys can stream towards Gaza, such as the last Turkish aid, which consisted of ball bearings and cement mixers.
Any so called 'humanitarian' gains will no doubt be paid for in the blood of Israeli soldiers and eventually perhaps even more Palestinian blood if Israel is delayed too long in finally neutralizing Hamas. Talks are a waste if time as death is in the DNA of Hamas who will either kill or be killed, their breaking of the last four cease fires in a row should demonstrate that to all but the terminally deluded.


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27 Palestinians were killed and 100 injured in an Israeli attack near the southern town of Rafah after the ceasefire began.
 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28603599
 
Israel broke the ceasefire not Hamas. Israel started this present round of violence on June 13th and they want to continue it..it's a great vote winner.

Dude, seriously. Are you guys that frickin dishonest or blind. Cease fire broken by suicide bomber that came out if a tunnel and targeted IDF soldiers and then they kidnapped and IDF soldier. Hamas did not deny the kidnapping that took place approximately 1 1/2 hours after the cease fire. IDF response came immediately after.

But no, i am sure some fools will say its all a cover up , IDF is lying, IDF staged this and IDF kidnapped its own soldier and will probably torture and its kill its own soldier to break cease fire. Give me a break. No wonder this world is so jacked up with all the idiots running around. Hard to tell where the line between dishonest, denial and just plain dumb can be drawn.

[Steely Dan]

Cease fires don't stop wars unless the original motive for fighting has been removed. Hamas want Israel's destruction, whereas Israel want to neutralize Hamas as a threat to its citizens. Israeli troops now have to dig in in hostile territory while Hamas fighters rest and no doubt set up more booby traps and human shields in UN property. Meanwhile so called aid convoys can stream towards Gaza, such as the last Turkish aid, which consisted of ball bearings and cement mixers.
Any so called 'humanitarian' gains will no doubt be paid for in the blood of Israeli soldiers and eventually perhaps even more Palestinian blood if Israel is delayed too long in finally neutralizing Hamas. Talks are a waste if time as death is in the DNA of Hamas who will either kill or be killed, their breaking of the last four cease fires in a row should demonstrate that to all but the terminally deluded.


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27 Palestinians were killed and 100 injured in an Israeli attack near the southern town of Rafah after the ceasefire began.
 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28603599
 
Israel broke the ceasefire not Hamas. Israel started this present round of violence on June 13th and they want to continue it..it's a great vote winner.

Ah, linking to the BBC in the hope everyone would assume they stated Israel broke the ceasefire. Well if anything that is the opposite of what their coverage stated, though obviously no independent confirmation is available.


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[F430murci]

Cease fires don't stop wars unless the original motive for fighting has been removed. Hamas want Israel's destruction, whereas Israel want to neutralize Hamas as a threat to its citizens. Israeli troops now have to dig in in hostile territory while Hamas fighters rest and no doubt set up more booby traps and human shields in UN property. Meanwhile so called aid convoys can stream towards Gaza, such as the last Turkish aid, which consisted of ball bearings and cement mixers.
Any so called 'humanitarian' gains will no doubt be paid for in the blood of Israeli soldiers and eventually perhaps even more Palestinian blood if Israel is delayed too long in finally neutralizing Hamas. Talks are a waste if time as death is in the DNA of Hamas who will either kill or be killed, their breaking of the last four cease fires in a row should demonstrate that to all but the terminally deluded.


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27 Palestinians were killed and 100 injured in an Israeli attack near the southern town of Rafah after the ceasefire began.
 
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28603599
 
Israel broke the ceasefire not Hamas. Israel started this present round of violence on June 13th and they want to continue it..it's a great vote winner.

Ah, linking to the BBC in the hope everyone would assume they stated Israel broke the ceasefire. Well if anything that is the opposite of what their coverage stated, though obviously no independent confirmation is available.


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Hamas did not deny in its initial press release. 2 IDF soldiers killed and kidnapped soldier identified by name.

Palestinian Ambassador Mansour on TV now saying kidnapping and killing IDF soldiers happened, but should not stop the peace talks in Cairo. Mansour defending Hamas actions breaking cease fire right now live on TV. Amazing! Screw em! They had their chances,

. . . This entire situation is sad, but will never end because Hamas either has no control of its terrorists out in the field or they don't care and want conflict and collateral damage to try and sway public opinion against Israel. Game changer kidnapping soldier and killing soldiers so shortly after cease fire.

Perhaps Israel over reacts and has undertaken inappropriate actions, but Hamas/Palestinians are just double talking fools. Edited August 1, 2014 by F430murci

[Ulysses G.]

If Israel wanted a peaceful solution they have had 60 years to sort one out..the latest being the whole  Arab world’s willingness to recognize the state of Israel in 2002 and 2007 within secure permanent borders.

 

Why do you insist on posting the same nonsense over and over again that has already been disproved. Do you even read your own - very unreliable - Wikipedia links?

Prime Minister Ismail Haneya said on October 2006 that the "problem with the Arab peace initiative is that it includes recognition of the state of Israel, the thing that the Palestinian government rejects" and dismissed it.[47] That month, Mahmoud al-Zahar declared unequivocally: "Hamas will never change its position regardless of the pressure's intensity" and "We will never recognize the Arab initiative."[48]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

Edited August 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

I would suggest that to most people the BBC is more impartial than the DEBKAfile quoted by Steely Dan!
 
For those who don't know, DEBKAfile is an Israeli military intelligence website!

[Steely Dan]

I would suggest that to most people the BBC is more impartial than the DEBKAfile quoted by Steely Dan!
 
For those who don't know, DEBKAfile is an Israeli military intelligence website!

Whose claims were just corroborated by a Hamas spokesman on your beloved BBC.


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[F430murci]

I would suggest that to most people the BBC is more impartial than the DEBKAfile quoted by Steely Dan!
 
For those who don't know, DEBKAfile is an Israeli military intelligence website!

??? That specific article seemed very objective and only made passing reference to an IDF allegation of kidnapping. I just sat here and watched Ambassador Mansour confirm that IDF solders were killed and one kidnapped. He made some bs excuse and said that should not stop negotiations in Cairo. BBC has credibility issues??? Someone needs to examine their own thought process and credibility . . .

This is a bad situation that will unfortunately continue to be dictated by Hamas/Palestinian nutter terrorists that want death and destabilization. Dudes could not even wait two hours.

[arjunadawn]

 

 

 

There is a fairly unfamiliar concept to the west which is widely practiced in Islamic warfare. It involves entering into treaties and cease fires only long enough or at all, to further entrench forces and strengthen yourself, only! Otherwise you give no quarter to the infidel, even if they are "of the Book."

While the West thinks cease fires represent the adults coming to the table to make best effort, in the practice and history on Islamic warfare these times require specific actions and preparations to further jihad. In clear holy mandate it's authorized to lie and enter into treaties and cease fires until your position is made better, then to continue war.

With Israel likely wanting a peaceful environment and safe/stable trading partners, and Hamas (and more or less Fatah) wanting the destruction of Israel, it's hard to see on what fulcrum peace may be leveraged- they both remain worlds apart. Until you can know your enemy you can never prevail.

 

 

Are you serious? You don't think Israel is strengthening its forces and preparing for another assault? 

 

 

 

Of course they are. Anyone with a brain expects Hamas to continue the hostilities. However, as he so obviously meant, Israel wants a peaceful solution to the whole conflict. All Hamas wants is to wipe every Jew in Israel out.

 

 

If Israel wanted a peaceful solution they have had 60 years to sort one out..the latest being the whole  Arab world’s willingness to recognize the state of Israel in 2002 and 2007 within secure permanent borders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

 

All Israel has done is grab more land illegally and move the goalposts since 2007 now demanding recognition of the Jewish State of Israel. A powerful right wing Zionist faction now wants to annex the whole of the West Bank, make its Palestinian inhabitants speak Hebrew and pledge loyalty to a Jewish state otherwise they will be denied citizenship. That’s Israel’s idea of a peaceful solution...to wipe Palestinians out of their own land.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/israeli-right-says-no-to-two-states-yes-to-greater-israel/2013/11/05/aa9068ee-454d-11e3-95a9-3f15b5618ba8_story.html

 

 

I assume you are aware that citing wikipedia in schools of higher learning will earn the wrath of the professor; why? Because Wikipedia, while informative, is hardly definitive. Moreover, anyone with a shred of knowledge on controversial topics can easily see where competing narratives wrestle for perception control, on a number of issues; this current Israeli middle east issue among them.

 

Your very first sentence betrays your partiality- your bias! This sentence implicitly declares something else as well: Israel alone is the reason for current conflict. This may indeed be your opinion, and I welcome varying points of view, but when you then dress it as fact, it must be called. So, we know two things immediately: 1) you join the conversation with a prejudice and 2), you attempt to conceal that prejudice as common accepted knowledge; fact.

 

The "Arab world" may have players that have ostensibly recognized Israel but that in know way consititutes the array of threats against it. There are more players that despise Israel than recognize it. While Iran is not Arab, it can hardly be excluded as it funds some of the primary, insidious threats. So, you are flatly incorrect. Moreover, recognizing a need for Israel's secure borders is hardly the issue for those who recognize. The larger body of enemies insist on pre 1967 borders. Agree with that or not, that is an issue. So, presuming that Israel's enemies all recognize secure borders is disingenuous- incomplete information (like Wikipedia, I am sure). So, you are 1/2 correct.

 

The Israel and land thing kinda irritates me too, but the land was not new land. It was previously possessed land from which attacks were launched on Israel, failed, then recognizing that without these lands remaining in their possession not even their major airports were safe from ground attacks outside their borders. therefore, they have retained them. These lands are the issue for final status talks. Yes, they are on the table for final status talks. I don't think it is a valid tactical move to increase their bargaining leverage by increasing Israel settlements; they do. But they are on the table for final status. So, you are incorrect here as well.

 

I am uncertain what you mean by demanding to be recognized as a Jewish State, but if so, whats the problem? Israel is a Jewish State inasmuch as America was inherrently Judeo-Christian. Israel's insistence on this point is a simple reduction of two basic demands: 1) Recognition of the State or Israel, and 2), recognition of Jews right to exist. How is this moving goalposts? Israel has always asserted that recognition is a precondition for talks at all!

 

Can you share which powerful right-wing Zionist faction? Regardless, the ground game may change and it may not be pretty, and it may not be comfortable for Israel as well. One thing is apparent, Israel is dealing with... Yes, that s correct, a terrorist organization. Under the cover of legitimate election Hamas remains a terror network. It is its core and its manifesto still calls for the total annihilation of Jews and the State of Israel. It would not surprise me that zealots in Israel want to do as you say. Whackos the world over have varying manifestos but little legitimacy or impact; as do those you mention. In an earlier thread/post I discussed my disgust with seeing a Shekel that had Israel all the way to the Euphrates river. This is probably the same nutjobs you refer to. I agree it is singularly unproductive.

Clearly people like this are destructive toward Peace's end. But they are not running the show, currently.There is palpable concern in Israel regarding the right of return. This mechanism would also destroy Israel, and her enemies know this.
 

Israel is in a very difficult position, irrespective of how it came to pass. The world over those "like you" just see red, mask their bias as fact, and declare Israel evil. I, on the other hand, seem to suggest the very opposite, but this is not correct. I consider the past and governing ideology only to inform my thoughts toward solution. The fact remains, what is each side prepared to do to achieve a framework for peace? Each and every time the possibility is thwarted by the Arabs. (It is not lost on many that a small minority of local leaders get quite rich by the status quo. This suggests motivation; it is fact).

 

Without a shred of evidence or theory can it be asserted Israel does not want peace. Israel will thrive with peace on its borders. Every Jew knows this.

[7by7]

 

I would suggest that to most people the BBC is more impartial than the DEBKAfile quoted by Steely Dan!
 
For those who don't know, DEBKAfile is an Israeli military intelligence website!

Whose claims were just corroborated by a Hamas spokesman on your beloved BBC.


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 Gaza militants 'seize Israeli soldier' as ceasefire ends

But Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoun said: "The Israelis are the ones who breached the ceasefire, and the Palestinian resistance acted in a way that ensures its right of self-defence."

[7by7]

The pro Israeli lobby continuously bang on that allowing displaced Palestinians a right of return is wrong.

 

What about the Israeli Law of Return?

 

Can one of you please explain why you believe it is wrong for displaced Palestinian refugees to return home, but it is it right for any Jew or even anyone with Jewish ancestry to move to and live in Israel and obtain Israeli citizenship?

[Jingthing]

Many countries have citizenship options based upon on ancestry. For example Italy and many others.

With Israel yes somewhat different due to the diaspora but a similar established principle of immigration.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Edited August 1, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

The pro Israeli lobby continuously bang on that allowing displaced Palestinians a right of return is wrong.

I am a lot more concerned about the Jewish right to return to all the Arab countries that threw them out and stole their homes and belongings. They need to be compensated for that, before any discussion about Arabs "returning" to Israel and - of course - they never will be. Edited August 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.