Israel and Hamas agree to unconditional 72-hour ceasefire

[Ulysses G.]

Actually, this is what happens when a terrorist group attacks and murders a soldier during a ceasefire that they have agreed to. I'm pretty sure that they will pay for it -  SEVERELY.

[ggold]

 

 

I am uncertain what you mean by demanding to be recognized as a Jewish State, but if so, whats the problem? Israel is a Jewish State inasmuch as America was inherrently Judeo-Christian. Israel's insistence on this point is a simple reduction of two basic demands: 1) Recognition of the State or Israel, and 2), recognition of Jews right to exist. How is this moving goalposts? Israel has always asserted that recognition is a precondition for talks at all!

 

 

The US may be "inherently Judeo-Christian", but that is not the same as it being a declared Christian State. Or a Jewish State. Or an Islamic state. The US specifically and consciously promotes freedom of religious expression - even though it may at times lead to fundamentalist fanatics - like Timothy McVeigh.

 

The concept of a"Jewish" state becomes quite problematic when one remembers that 20% of the citizens of Israel are Arabs, most of whom are Muslim or Christian - and probably with a few atheists / agnostics as well. So, I have no problem with "inherently" Jewish part of the concept (similar to the USA), but the proposal from Netanyahu is for a formally declared basic law that enshrines a "Jewish State".  But if this is a basic law, which will takes precedence when it conflicts with other basic laws that enshrine democratic principles? This proposal rings alarm bells all the way back to Europe in the 1930s.

 

 

 

The idea behind the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, is a counter balance to the Palestinian right of return. That doesn't mean other faiths are not recognised or restricted to practice their faith .

 

Why the Palestinians want the right of return is a strategy that in time Israel, with enough Palestinians would eventually become a Palestinian state through democratic means. Obviously if Palestinians recognise Israel as a Jewish state, then they give up their claim to the right of return.

 

 The democratic principals you may have been eluding to? Reality is No way would Israel allow Palestinians the right of return to Israel. If Palestinians recognise Israel's right to exist then they can't expect to get a Palestinian right to return into Israel. 

[7by7]

Most Israelis are Jews and most Israeli Jews desire that Israel continue to have a majority population of Jewish people. You could say the same thing about Thailand and Thais and many other nations. But somehow, one time in history when the tiny minority of Jews want this, so many people freak out and won't accept that right of self determination.

There was once a man who used the exact same arguments about ethnicity in his country.

You may have heard of him.

His name was Adolf Hitler!

[Ulysses G.]

Adolph Hitler did not give his Jews full citizenship rights and put one on the Supreme Court. In fact, he did the opposite. The Hitler comparison is really stupid. 

[7by7]

 

Yes, I am aware that attitudes on the other side are just as entrenched.

Then why are you obsessed with lecturing the Jews and mostly giving the Muslims a pass?

 

 

Yet again you accuse me of saying something I have not.

 

I have neither lectured Jews nor given Muslims a pass.

 

I would ask you to provide any post where I have done either; but what's the point; you never have done so in the past when you've made similar accusations.

[Johpa]

I don't understand how mostly German and Polish people can claim someone else's (African)land ? 

Especially when they were not under any threat in their OWN land!?

 

It is with some reluctance that I respond to any of your posts, but this one in particular, and the historical ignorance that it evidences, does touch upon some of the issues discussed later in the thread.  Clearly the Jews of Central Europe were under threat and discrimination.  Periods of violent antisemitism were always cyclic, but never out of recent memory whether it be brief rampages after the annual Passion plays of Easter in Germany or Poland or the more organized extended pogroms in Russia which we would now call ethnic cleansing actions.  The discrimination against Jews by Christendom never receded.  The meme of antisemitism has never been erased.  Even secular Christians never fully accepted Jews in their midst.  Crikey, even in Russia, the very secular communists were reluctant to recognize the Jewish Bund.  The threat to the Jews was always there, just as it was in Muslim countries.  That is the whole point of the original zionistic movement, an attempt at self-determination, at long term security, and ultimately survival.  The survival of Israel is the ultimate existential concern to Judaism.  That is not the case with Palestinians as that term only refers to Arabs who live or lived where the Jews now govern. Their existence as Levant Arabs in not threatened in the least as they share nearly their entire culture with the Levant Arabs in the neighboring countries.  It is a blight upon these neighboring Arab states that after historical forces, including political, military, and demographic forces, created the State of Israel that they did not absorb the relatively small number of refugees into their own population but forced them into refugee camps.  Yes, today, history would not allow an Israel to be created as the historical landscape has changed in an ever changing world where the rate of change has increased exponentially.  But that does not negate what happened during the last century nor does it negate the Jew's desire to maintain and protect their state of their own just as every ethnic group in Europe would do to protect their own ethnic based nation-states.  It is the height of hypocrisy for anyone in the west to criticize the rather secular Jewish population of Israel to declare its right to maintain its existence as a Jewish state.  And no need here to talk about the hypocrisy of the self-absorbed Asian populations that each see themselves as the cat's meow but decry the Jews in Israel.

 

All this does not imply that I can not criticize Israel's specific politics.  I am always noting that Netanyahu must go sooner rather than later.

[dexterm]

You, posters of pro and con Israel, are lecturing and trying to 'educate' each other.  Don't waste your time.  People not willing to see, hear or feel - never will.  And this applies to both camps.

 

Israel has a Natural, God given right to live, exist and strive for happiness like any other country.  Whether you like it or not. 

 

Hamas is an unconditional sworn enemy of this Israeli right.

 

I always had a high regard for Israeli common sense.

 

 Can not see it in:

 

- ceasefire.  Only needed by Hamas to regroup, re-arm, pull out their terrorists from imminent destruction maybe save some not yet discovered tunnels.

- any talks with Hamas.  This is a Terrorist organization with members loosely connected - thus rockets will keep coming and very soon.

- giving Gaza back to Hamas.  This was a treacherous and stupid act by politicians paid now for by soldier's and civilian's lives - on both sides.

 

If Israelis do not destroy Hamas as political and military force there will be more wars, more deaths - on both sides.

 

Any deaths in Gaza - on both sides are responsibility of Hamas not Israel (except for the mentioned politicians).

 

No, I'm not a warmonger and not an Israeli.  Just happen to have my own opinion shared by some Senators and Congressmen of the USA. 

 

 

 

What a strange post, you tell us not to lecture each other on the pro and cons on the conflict, because it's a waste of time then in the next breath deliver an Israeli apologist diatribe attacking Hamas.

[dexterm]

 

You can't argue against the analogy, so fire a cheap shot. Typical.

I already did refute the ridiculous analogy and you tried to spin your way out of it - as per usual.
 

 All Israel wants is to be left alone.

 

 

Well, get back inside your 1967 borders (which are a bonus on land allotted in 1947...don't be greedy) and start being good neighbors.

 

Don't go and grab some West Bank Palestinian farmer's land who has been there for centuries, then moan that you want to be left alone. Gives us a break!

[Smurkster]

This makes me so angry

[Jingthing]

This makes me so angry

Thanks for sharing. Usually people choose to be more specific. 

[Smurkster]

 

This makes me so angry

Thanks for sharing. Usually people choose to be more specific. 

 

Jewish occupation of lands that until Aliyah started had nothing to do with Jews at all.....the Diaspora was thousands of years ago, now the Jews want to claim it all for themselves...

 

 

Judeophobic rhetoric really has nothing to do with it

[Jingthing]

 

 

This makes me so angry

Thanks for sharing. Usually people choose to be more specific. 

 

Jewish occupation of lands that until Aliyah started had nothing to do with Jews at all.....the Diaspora was thousands of years ago, now the Jews want to claim it all for themselves...

 

 

Judeophobic rhetoric really has nothing to do with it

 

Israel is an established and still relatively TINY nation state now with many millions of citizens, yes mostly Jews, and most born there. You want to to turn back the clock and seem to suggest Israel doesn't deserve to exist now. Forget about it. Be angry with your one sided view about how and why Israel came to be. How is that productive?

[Smurkster]

'... 1,422 Palestinians have been killed, most of them civilians ... ... Two Israeli civilians have been killed ...' If those figures are even close to accurate, the Israelis should have a lot of explaining to do. But with the Jewish vote to consider, I doubt the US will be doing much pushing.

Spot on...if you say something like this in the United States media you are immediately labeled an anti-semite....yeah, well there is a real big difference between questioning the bloody policies of Israel and being Anti Semetic

[Smurkster]

 

 

 

This makes me so angry

Thanks for sharing. Usually people choose to be more specific. 

 

Jewish occupation of lands that until Aliyah started had nothing to do with Jews at all.....the Diaspora was thousands of years ago, now the Jews want to claim it all for themselves...

 

 

Judeophobic rhetoric really has nothing to do with it

 

Israel is an established and still relatively TINY nation state now with many millions of citizens, yes mostly Jews, and most born there. You want to to turn back the clock and seem to suggest Israel doesn't deserve to exist now. Forget about it. Be angry with your one sided view about how and why Israel came to be. How is that productive?

 

 

 

Israel came to be because no one had the guts to say anything...Truman surely didn't, he let it happen, the country was built upon terrorism...the Haganah, King David Hotel 1948... Gurion declared the state in 48 without any objections from the UN, they had NO BALLS to say anything, probably because they didn't want to appear anti semetic in the wake of what had happened across Europe during that decade

 

 

just because Israel exists today doesn't mean that no one has the right to question its legitimacy...ok sure it is an established state, but it is surrounded by enemies and I cannot see logistically how it will survive the future....

[Jingthing]

People are acting confused.
NOBODY has said that criticism of Israeli policy in itself is Judeophobic!

Anyone who knows my long term posting history knows full well that I think there is plenty of blame on BOTH SIDES for the lack of peace in the region (even though yes I do consider Hamas a terror organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel so not a reasonable player to "negotiate" with).

But certain kinds of rhetoric are that and you can't expect to post that kind of hate speech on a public forum without being called out for it.

 

For examples:

Suggesting equivalency of modern Israel and Nazi Germany (this has been done so many times on this forum it isn't even funny)

Falsely exaggerating Jewish ownership and control of media, finance,  etc. (happening here too)

 

I hope this clears things up. I know it won't. Again, if people insist on spouting Judeophobic speech, you have put it out there yourself, so you aren't immune from pushback.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

Israel came to be because no one had the guts to say anything...Truman surely didn't, he let it happen, the country was built upon terrorism...the Haganah, King David Hotel 1948... Gurion declared the state in 48 without any objections from the UN, they had NO BALLS to say anything, probably because they didn't want to appear anti semetic in the wake of what had happened across Europe during that decade

 

 

just because Israel exists today doesn't mean that no one has the right to question its legitimacy...ok sure it is an established state, but it is surrounded by enemies and I cannot see logistically how it will survive the future....

 

Surrounded by enemies. Bingo! He gets it. Israel is kind of used to people not accepting it's existence as legitimate. Right now, fighting a WAR and rightly so against a force that certainly doesn't. As far as the future ... who knows ... but the neighbor situation might not be as bad as you say considering Egypt and Saudi. 

[F430murci]

You, posters of pro and con Israel, are lecturing and trying to 'educate' each other.  Don't waste your time.  People not willing to see, hear or feel - never will.  And this applies to both camps.
 
Israel has a Natural, God given right to live, exist and strive for happiness like any other country.  Whether you like it or not. 
 
Hamas is an unconditional sworn enemy of this Israeli right.
 
I always had a high regard for Israeli common sense.
 
 Can not see it in:
 
- ceasefire.  Only needed by Hamas to regroup, re-arm, pull out their terrorists from imminent destruction maybe save some not yet discovered tunnels.
- any talks with Hamas.  This is a Terrorist organization with members loosely connected - thus rockets will keep coming and very soon.
- giving Gaza back to Hamas.  This was a treacherous and stupid act by politicians paid now for by soldier's and civilian's lives - on both sides.
 
If Israelis do not destroy Hamas as political and military force there will be more wars, more deaths - on both sides.
 
Any deaths in Gaza - on both sides are responsibility of Hamas not Israel (except for the mentioned politicians).
 
No, I'm not a warmonger and not an Israeli.  Just happen to have my own opinion shared by some Senators and Congressmen of the USA. 
 
 

True dat, but what else will we do?

[Jingthing]

Attempting to talk rationally (or responding to baiting) to people spouting hateful lies of equivalency between Israel and Nazi Germany is not something I would suggest that anyone bother with.

[Wat dee]

 

I don't understand how mostly German and Polish people can claim someone else's (African)land ? 

Especially when they were not under any threat in their OWN land!?

 

It is with some reluctance that I respond to any of your posts, but this one in particular, and the historical ignorance that it evidences, does touch upon some of the issues discussed later in the thread.  Clearly the Jews of Central Europe were under threat and discrimination.  Periods of violent antisemitism were always cyclic, but never out of recent memory whether it be brief rampages after the annual Passion plays of Easter in Germany or Poland or the more organized extended pogroms in Russia which we would now call ethnic cleansing actions.  The discrimination against Jews by Christendom never receded.  The meme of antisemitism has never been erased.  Even secular Christians never fully accepted Jews in their midst.  Crikey, even in Russia, the very secular communists were reluctant to recognize the Jewish Bund.  The threat to the Jews was always there, just as it was in Muslim countries.  That is the whole point of the original zionistic movement, an attempt at self-determination, at long term security, and ultimately survival.  The survival of Israel is the ultimate existential concern to Judaism.  That is not the case with Palestinians as that term only refers to Arabs who live or lived where the Jews now govern. Their existence as Levant Arabs in not threatened in the least as they share nearly their entire culture with the Levant Arabs in the neighboring countries.  It is a blight upon these neighboring Arab states that after historical forces, including political, military, and demographic forces, created the State of Israel that they did not absorb the relatively small number of refugees into their own population but forced them into refugee camps.  Yes, today, history would not allow an Israel to be created as the historical landscape has changed in an ever changing world where the rate of change has increased exponentially.  But that does not negate what happened during the last century nor does it negate the Jew's desire to maintain and protect their state of their own just as every ethnic group in Europe would do to protect their own ethnic based nation-states.  It is the height of hypocrisy for anyone in the west to criticize the rather secular Jewish population of Israel to declare its right to maintain its existence as a Jewish state.  And no need here to talk about the hypocrisy of the self-absorbed Asian populations that each see themselves as the cat's meow but decry the Jews in Israel.

 

All this does not imply that I can not criticize Israel's specific politics.  I am always noting that Netanyahu must go sooner rather than later.

 

I think the threat was pretty much eliminated 1945 especially with foreign troops in charge?

[Wat dee]

 

So You expect other countries to solve Israelis Palestinian  problem. 
You are not fooling anyone and time is running out.

 
No, i expect for countries who supposedly care so much to do little more than just sit and talk.
 
I also expect for those countries to supply aid instead of weapons if they REALLY care about their brothers

 

To solve the problem, equal firepower! Maybe Ukranian briefcases  for sale soon!

[Jingthing]

Back to topic, Israel is suggesting they are getting near finishing the job of the tunnel destruction that can be detected (which took 5 years to build in which child labor was used and hundreds of children's lives sacrificed by Hamas) and of course many of the rocket launchers.  Obviously Hamas still has some military capabilities. Basically Israel seems to now be in the process of backing off even though the Israeli right wing is complaining about that. It will be interesting to see if some kind of temporary "peace" will result from Israel backing off. Hamas will not have won anything from Israel regarding blockade demands so on record they will not stop until they win something. They have won their PR war of further trying to demonize Israel to the world ... but it's unclear how that actually will help Hamas and the people of Gaza in the short and long run. In any case, broken ceasefire or not, there seems to be a transition to a new phase in this conflict (which is of course not over). Politically it seems that Hamas has a big problem now ... so much damage and so many dead and injured and nothing tangible to show for it ... 

[Scott]

A huge number of posts have been deleted.   This topic is massively off-topic and this point.   

 

//Closed//