The Thai Schooling system - just how bad is it?

[David48]

The Thai Schooling system - just how bad is it?

I've got a couple of kids, not 1 year old yet, Dual Nationals.

My partner and I face the question of where to school them. Here or in the West.

My only experience of the Thai Schooling system is living with the Nephews and Nieces.

I don't speak (enough) Thai to comprehend what goes on, but my gut feeling that there is very little going on.

While I know that the early years of schooling won't affect their ability to gain University entrance, I have the feeling, from reading what you guys write about your experiences with Thai Schooling is that it's very 'cookie cutter' approach. Very 'rote learning'. That 2 + 2 = 4 ... rather then why 2 + 2 = 4.

If the Thai Schooling system is not encouraging to open learning - what can be done?

Can that manufactured learning be compensated for by expanding their mind to be creative and investigative through encouraging that style of development in the home environment?

Lot's of questions there, I just want to learn from your experiences.

Tackle one or all of the issues I question above.

As Always ... thanks ...

.

[iancnx]

I can only answer from a personal perspective and what I have observed throughout the province. Primary school is totally inadequate for what I consider my 18 month old dual national son will need. He will go to the local nursery at aged 2. He will join local extra curricular activities such as footy, judoand other sports, hobbies and interests. For his primary education I will home school him along with my wife (Thai English Teacher), who will cover the Thai curriculum aspects. When he is 9 yrs we will reassess. I have a hunch that 16 years from now universities will be totally different concepts to what the are today given advances in technology. Therefore his secondary education requirements (from an international perspective) at age 11 are a complete unknown. All we can do is prepare him as best as possible with as much travel and real life experience as possible supported by up to date and progressive IT online learning. Just my perspective on a difficult problem to square.

[pinkpanther99]

To answer your question - it's pretty bad.

It's not just that it's bad, it's that the only real good options such as international schools are super, super expensive.

My daughter is two next month and I'm really worried about her schooling in the future.

I 'taught' English for two years when I first came to Thailand and some of the stuff I saw was unbelievable.

The standard of foreign teachers especially was very poor and I include myself in that.

I pretty much just walked into a school and landed a job teaching in an English program. Not much of an interview, no one ever checked my proficiency in English, they just wanted a farang stood at the front of the class to satisfy the demands of the parents. And this wasn't at a poor govt school, I was teaching at one of the supposed best schools in the province.

As I have said before though, I am a massive hypocrite because having someone like me (a 'TEFLer') teach a class full of kids was OK when I was the teacher but now the shoe is on the other foot and there is a good chance my daughter may be taught by someone like me (no experience, not properly qualified, only took the job to extend my stay in Thailand and earn money) suddenly it's not OK!!

Edited August 1, 2014 by pinkpanther99

[geronimo]

Hi David,

I was a language teacher here for twenty years so I am more than qualified to tell you how it is. The Thai education system suppresses any creativity and imagination from K1 onwards. The kids are programmed to be followers and are taught how to remember stuff in order to pass an exam. By the end of grade 6, you have a young person with almost zero imagination and no initiative. The kids sorely lack analytical skills and are unable to work together in groups to problem solve. International schools do not follow this concept by the way so if the funds can stretch then you will get a decent education for your kids. Seriously consider this before sending your kids to a Thai school.

Personally have two boys here, both at Uni now, I gave them the input they needed outside of school hours from day one and subsequently they are above average regarding thinking outside the box.

Rote learning is the norm here and I don't see anything on the horizon that will change it.

[meatboy]

hi david,I don't have any kids but having seen my b.i.l.go from primary,to high,to uni,that was a waste of money[plenty]

then there was my other b.i.l.whose daughter went the same way but what she was taught I don't know at 16 she'd had enough.

I know it is said that a thai degree is not worth the paper its written on if going for a job abroad.i have seen my s.i.l.step daughter who is studying phisio,well if you see the homework she gets on English its no wonder nobody can understand the meaning of the wording.so if they are goner be in the front row take them home.

[harrry]

Personally I think that a good school in Thailand compares to a medium school in Australia. An average one here is at the level of a school in one of the poorer suburbs the kind where attendance and interest is not good. I doubt if any school here is better than say the top 20% of Australian government schools.

I think some of the negative comments about Thai schools come from people who as they came from a higher economic status family went to slightly better schools than some of the poorer people who have to put up with lower quality schooling and never have the means to move here. There is a tendency to think all schools are like the best ones at home just as they think here all schools are like the worst.

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/6321/1/Schools_in_Disadvantaged_Areas_Recognising_context_and_raising_quality.pdf

Edited August 1, 2014 by harrry

[doontp]

I teach at a private Catholic school, just outside of BKK. One of my students just returned from the USA. She spent a year there as an exchange student. She's Mattayom 4 or 10th grade. 16 yrs old.

Her grades in the USA were all A's and B's and she was bored in the Math and Science classes because everyone was slower than her.

Her English speaking improved dramatically. I was very surprised.

[CaptHaddock]

Here's some data on the subject from the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), which tests 15-year-olds in many countries every few years. This test attempts to measure the ability of students to reason, not merely to repeat learned information. The math results for 2012 are below. Out of 65 countries tested, Shanghai is #1 (also in reading and science) the US is 36, lagging virtually all the rich countries, and Thailand is 50 worse than Romania, but better than Mexico. Results were similar for reading and science. Thailand is not a good place to educate children on the average.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PISA_2012_Tests

1 Shanghai, China 613
2 Singapore 573
3 Hong Kong, China 561
4 Taiwan 560
5 South Korea 554
6 Macau, China 538
7 Japan 536
8 Liechtenstein 535
9 Switzerland 531
10 Netherlands 523
11 Estonia 521
12 Finland 519
13= Canada 518
13= Poland 518
15 Belgium 515
16 Germany 514
17 Vietnam 511
18 Austria 506
19 Australia 504
20= Ireland 501
20= Slovenia 501
22= Denmark 500
22= New Zealand 500
24 Czech Republic 499
25 France 495
26 United Kingdom 494
27 Iceland 493
28 Latvia 491
29 Luxembourg 490
30 Norway 489
31 Portugal 487
32 Italy 485
33 Spain 484
34= Russia 482
34= Slovakia 482
36 United States 481
37 Lithuania 479
38 Sweden 478
39 Hungary 477
40 Croatia 471
41 Israel 466
42 Greece 453
43 Serbia 449
44 Turkey 448
45 Romania 445
46 Cyprus 440
47 Bulgaria 439
48 United Arab Emirates 434
49 Kazakhstan 432
50 Thailand 427
51 Chile 423
52 Malaysia 421
53 Mexico 413
54 Montenegro 410
55 Uruguay 409
56 Costa Rica 407
57 Albania 394
58 Brazil 391
59= Argentina 388
59= Tunisia 388
61 Jordan 386
62= Colombia 376
62= Qatar 376
64 Indonesia 375
65 Peru 368

[jacky54]

I think the OP is on about the state system and not private Schools here. They do not really educate that's the problem and they have far too many poor (jobs for life) teachers in them. Several are teachers and heads of Schools in our family, and from what I have seen and been told the state education system is more like the Thai indoctrination system. Kids are not taught to think, they are taught to accept all things Thai are beautiful, that's about it.

[David48]

I think the OP is on about the state system and not private Schools here. They do not really educate that's the problem and they have far too many poor (jobs for life) teachers in them. Several are teachers and heads of Schools in our family, and from what I have seen and been told the state education system is more like the Thai indoctrination system. Kids are not taught to think, they are taught to accept all things Thai are beautiful, that's about it.

Jacky, thanks for raising that point, I forgot it from the OP.

So I am referring to the Thai Government Schools.

.

[ATF]

There are may good Catholic private schools in Thailand and they are not expensive. A Thai state school, forget it. Then when they are 11 send them to a decent International school, but they are around 600k per year 1M with boarding, about the same price as Europe or the US. So start saving now.

[LucidLucifer]

Geronimo's assessment seems pretty spot on in my experience. We take some extremely able children Thai children into the international school where I work, and we know they are able because we congnitive ability test them upon entrance. These tests have very little to do with previous learning and are purely an assessment of raw potential.

However, even at lower Primary level, there are huge gaps that need filling. One of the biggest gaps is the ability to question and work from their own initiative, which isn't surprising if they have come from a Thai school culture of rote learning and being spoon fed.

In your OP you stated that early years education won't necessarily affect their ability to gain university entrance, but let me just run a few facts past you regarding that. The minimum Key Stage 1 (ages 5-7) National Curriculum level deemed acceptable by OFSTED for reading, writing and maths is a 2c. Data compiled over the last 20 years clearly shows that any child that misses a 2c in only one of the three core skills at the end of KS1 only has a 19% chance of achieving 5 GCSEs grade A-C, and if they miss two, that chance falls to around 8%. Five A-C passes is the normal requirement to procede on to A-levels and then university entrance.

Good schooling at all ages is imperative - if a child doesn't have a solid start and the right foundations of skills, they will forever be playing catch up.

[Sayonarax]

I live next door to a primary school and the amount of noise and stupidity that can be heard an seen is unbelievable.

Im surprised the kids can actually hear their teacher, as their battling each class room from yelling the answers out. Kids are not learning by yelling out at the top of their lungs..

I recently went to my niece school in Australia that has 800 kids inside and when i was waiting outside, i said to my BIL, wow you wouldnt imagine theirs 800 kids inside.

Thai teachers can be utter morons.. lets put it at that.

[JimShortz]

There are may good Catholic private schools in Thailand and they are not expensive. A Thai state school, forget it. Then when they are 11 send them to a decent International school, but they are around 600k per year 1M with boarding, about the same price as Europe or the US. So start saving now.

Although those prices depend a lot on where you are in Thailand. In Chiang Mai those costs can be in the 200/300k per year range at the less expensive international schools. Not everywhere in Thailand is as expensive as Bangkok or the beaches...

[Bung]

I'm having major problems with my son at a big international school in Chiang Mai. They failed him last year so when I got back here I tried to see why. Turns out he can't read or write properly yet. He is 13. All the school was interested in is that he must do his homework. I asked how he can do his homework if he can't read?

I get a phone call this morning. I cut his hair last night, short but apparently it's not short enough for them. I had to ask, I never get contacted by the school about the fact he can't read or how he is failing and what can we do about it, no. I get a call about his hair is 1mm too long. Hair police.

No one is interested in helping you help your child. I think he may be dyslexic but I'm no professional. What do I do? In the west the school would give you some help and direction about how to help a struggling child. Here, It's up to you to sort that out for yourself. No school will ever tell you your kid needs help for fear of loss of face for the parents.

[greg71]

If you hate your kids educated them here .

[iancnx]

I can only answer from a personal perspective and what I have observed throughout the province. Primary school is totally inadequate for what I consider my 18 month old dual national son will need. He will go to the local nursery at aged 2. He will join local extra curricular activities such as footy, judoand other sports, hobbies and interests. For his primary education I will home school him along with my wife (Thai English Teacher), who will cover the Thai curriculum aspects. When he is 9 yrs we will reassess. I have a hunch that 16 years from now universities will be totally different concepts to what the are today given advances in technology. Therefore his secondary education requirements (from an international perspective) at age 11 are a complete unknown. All we can do is prepare him as best as possible with as much travel and real life experience as possible supported by up to date and progressive IT online learning. Just my perspective on a difficult problem to square.

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but would welcome thoughts on my belief that in 16 yrs from now universities will probably be completely different beasts and therefore planning for that needs to be outside of the box and not what we are programmed to work towards currently.

[AyG]

Surely what matters is where the children are going to spend their lives post-school.

It would be cruel to bring them up to be questioning and challenging when such an attitude isn't going to help them living in Thailand.

Conversely, you wouldn't want them hidebound by their education if they're going to live and work in the Occident.

[JimShortz]

The minimum Key Stage 1 (ages 5-7) National Curriculum level deemed acceptable by OFSTED for reading, writing and maths is a 2c. Data compiled over the last 20 years clearly shows that any child that misses a 2c in only one of the three core skills at the end of KS1 only has a 19% chance of achieving 5 GCSEs grade A-C, and if they miss two, that chance falls to around 8%. Five A-C passes is the normal requirement to procede on to A-levels and then university entrance.

Good schooling at all ages is imperative - if a child doesn't have a solid start and the right foundations of skills, they will forever be playing catch up.

I'm not in anyway doubting the importance of good early years schooling. In fact I agree wholeheartedly that it is hugely important. However, we also know that students with poor early years education, given the right opportunities, can in later years do extremely well.

Wouldn't it be interesting if the Ofsted performance data also included cognitive ability test data? This type of data really makes me think about how much of the outcome was to some extent pre-ordained by genetic potential...

As I said, i'm not doubting the value of quality early years education, it's just that to me that Ofsted data presents a very incomplete picture, with no clear identification of cause, just a statistical link.

Edited August 1, 2014 by JimShortz

[David48]

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but would welcome thoughts on my belief that in 16 yrs from now universities will probably be completely different beasts and therefore planning for that needs to be outside of the box and not what we are programmed to work towards currently.

Mate, it's a fair question.

Learning is a life long process.

.

[AYJAYDEE]

who says its bad? our two daughters came to canada and started grade 12 and both got straight A's and went on to college.

[David48]

Surely what matters is where the children are going to spend their lives post-school.

It would be cruel to bring them up to be questioning and challenging when such an attitude isn't going to help them living in Thailand.

Conversely, you wouldn't want them hidebound by their education if they're going to live and work in the Occident.

Well, we've thought about that also.

My thoughts are that, by the time they are of University age they are just either side of 20.

At that age they will be men and as they are dual citizens, free to choose where they live.

We won't be kicking them out the door, but they will have the freedom of choice for their domicile.

.

[samuibeachcomber]

I have read through most of the posts here and totally agree.Too much ceremony,not enough learning.Discouragement from questioning and free thinking.There's nothing wrong with rote learning(eg maths etc) but alot of the teaching is about buddha,taking care ,family responsibilities(nothing wrong with this at all but it is at the expense of other subjects.

My biggest surprise was at the poor quality of thai english teachers...........they had very little grasp or understanding of english grammar and without this a student will be ill equipped for a good job.

If i had a child here i would "self educate" if possible,when they are young....that way you can set the standards and later to an international school,somehow you just gotta get the money.Sending kids to schools back home maybe if you can find the right school,but my understanding is that the quality of education in the west is also going downhill mainly due to unruly class behaviour.

[theoldgit]

One post removed, this thread isn't an English Test.

[chakatee]

Try to start a basic, really basic, conversation (about the food, the weather ...) with someone who graduated Bachelor with major in English, English Business Administration, ...

That will give you the answer.

[WitawatWatawit]

Some good advice from people with the right knowledge, David. I was lucky when my daughter was three to know a few international school teachers and received a solid heads up from them about Thai schools. I began to joke that I'd put a bullet thru her head before sending her to a Thai school. Some days I wasn't joking . I bit the bullet and managed to educate my daughter in western schools and university, and to see her now makes the sacrifices all worthwhile. I'll leave my comments at that and let you concentrate on posts that have critical info.

In tune with Sayonarax. I lived near a BMA primary school for several years and I echo his sentiments. The noise and the stupidity that emanated from that place was an absolute disgrace. The BMA should be ashamed of itself for allowing it to happen. The problems had nothing to do with lack of facilities and resources - it was, plain and simple, poor and indifferent teaching skills.

[Jasun]

I the reason so many of us ask this question is because we don't like the answer.

[David48]

Try to start a basic, really basic, conversation (about the food, the weather ...) with someone who graduated Bachelor with major in English, English Business Administration, ...

That will give you the answer.

Fair comment, and I'm sure you are not wrong.

But I'm sort of focused on their early learning needs ... they aren't even in Kindy (pre-school) yet!

.

[geronimo]

Try to start a basic, really basic, conversation (about the food, the weather ...) with someone who graduated Bachelor with major in English, English Business Administration, ...

That will give you the answer.

Fair comment, and I'm sure you are not wrong.

But I'm sort of focused on their early learning needs ... they aren't even in Kindy (pre-school) yet!

.

You can do it yourself at home. Encourage questions, get them into drawing and tell them lots of amazing stories!!!

[JimShortz]

I'm having major problems with my son at a big international school in Chiang Mai. They failed him last year so when I got back here I tried to see why. Turns out he can't read or write properly yet. He is 13. All the school was interested in is that he must do his homework. I asked how he can do his homework if he can't read?

I get a phone call this morning. I cut his hair last night, short but apparently it's not short enough for them. I had to ask, I never get contacted by the school about the fact he can't read or how he is failing and what can we do about it, no. I get a call about his hair is 1mm too long. Hair police.

No one is interested in helping you help your child. I think he may be dyslexic but I'm no professional. What do I do? In the west the school would give you some help and direction about how to help a struggling child. Here, It's up to you to sort that out for yourself. No school will ever tell you your kid needs help for fear of loss of face for the parents.

Are you sure that is one of the real international schools? i.e. one with proper accreditation and that uses the phrase "international school" in their name. There are no hair police in any of the international schools in Chiang Mai, unless the hairstyle is something extreme like a pink mohican!

I'm also surprised to hear about your lack of help. All international schools that I'm aware of do offer support of this type. I think it's time for you to reconsider your choice of school.

For assistance outside of the international school system you could contact the Acorn to Oaks Children's Centre in Bangkok. They are very good: http://www.atocbkk.com/

Good luck. If he's 13 already you really need proper help very soon.