The Thai Schooling system - just how bad is it?

[Deacon Bell]

"too busy worrying about loosing face and unable to take any type of criticisms"

The main issue holding back most of the Thai people and their society and culture.

[brucetefl]

Two posts from other threads that seem appropriate here:

This might be interesting to some.

A few years ago we had a lot of students taking our TEFL course in Ban Phe. We always went to one school to do our Teaching Practice (each of our students had to teach eight lessons to real students in a real Thai school). The school was not a good one academically. People who cared sent their kids to Rayong to the bigger and better schools.

When we first started visiting the school the kids were afraid of the teachers and could say nothing to them. But we kept visiting that school month after month. It was 80 to 120 hours of free classes per month at the school.

After a few months the students attitudes completely changed. As soon as we arrived at the school the students would gather around the van and greet the teachers, ask them simple questions and chat with them. There was a marked improvement in the students' English listening and speaking ability.

Then, quite suddenly, the director of the school told us we were no longer welcome. The students had not improved their scores in their grammar-centric exams!

[brucetefl]

Many people are concerned, and rightfully so, about how to best educate their children here in Thailand. I have three children. One of them finished M6 18 months ago. One is M6 now. A third is M5. I'm pretty happy with the way that their education has gone generally. Some of you maybe interested in how I did it, especially since there are no international schools nearby.

Their education started at birth. In my house, I only speak to my children English. Since they were born. Next, cartoons, movies, and any other television that they watched was exclusively in English. They were not allowed to watch any Thai programming. Let's face it, the rest of the world outside of my home will be in Thai. But I wanted them to be completely fluent in English. So those were the rules. When my children were younger my wife spoke to them in English. But after a few years she changed back to Thai. No problem. I left it up to her.

I chose A smaller, well-run, Thai private K-6 school for them. And I got to know the owner. I did her a few favors, like help her find English teachers or even helped her myself a few times. I did this because I was going to need a favor from her in the future.

each of my children spent two years of their primary education studying at home with a Filipina teacher. They studied the basic curriculum that the other students were studying, but they did it in English. Sometimes I would have two of my children studying together. Sometimes it would just be one. At the time I was paying 15,000 per month, 60,000 per term, 120,000 per year. With two kids together that's still far cheaper than most international schools.

I also gave my kids Reading assignments during the summer holidays. Every year and that even continues today. My oldest son ended up reading all the harry potter books as well as many Stephen King and other popular books.

When they got to Matayom I did not put them into the English programs. Why should they study with a bunch of kids who speak very little English? They speak English. I want them to learn what they're there to study.

Have been very happy with their education. The Thai school system is a joke. But there is a lot of cool stuff on the internet now (check out Crash Course on youtube)

[saroq]

I can only answer from a personal perspective and what I have observed throughout the province. Primary school is totally inadequate for what I consider my 18 month old dual national son will need. He will go to the local nursery at aged 2. He will join local extra curricular activities such as footy, judoand other sports, hobbies and interests. For his primary education I will home school him along with my wife (Thai English Teacher), who will cover the Thai curriculum aspects. When he is 9 yrs we will reassess. I have a hunch that 16 years from now universities will be totally different concepts to what the are today given advances in technology. Therefore his secondary education requirements (from an international perspective) at age 11 are a complete unknown. All we can do is prepare him as best as possible with as much travel and real life experience as possible supported by up to date and progressive IT online learning. Just my perspective on a difficult problem to square.

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but would welcome thoughts on my belief that in 16 yrs from now universities will probably be completely different beasts and therefore planning for that needs to be outside of the box and not what we are programmed to work towards currently.

Doubtful as educational institutions are slow to change the model they use to function. What you will see is a lot more of the American model where education become unafforable and graduates are saddled with enormous debt as they enter the workforce on low wages.

A comment to the OP is that early education is vital and far more important than most people think. One simple thing every parent can do at home to help their child is to read every day to and with their very young children. Other activities like singing songs, drawing pictures and making up stories can also be incorporated into time spent together. If THB300,000 - THB400,000 a year is too much for you I'm sure that there are cheaper "International School" like alternatives that you can investigate.

[laolover88]

In a sense we are missing the point, I think.

On the plane yesterday. Every Thai child has an i-pad. At the Tutors every Thai child has an i-phone or a Samsung Galaxy. They are not playing games. They are exploring the digital world.

Provided you have a supportive facilitative environment the possibilities for them are huge. Khan Academy is great.

www.themathsfactor.com is good.

You, that is parents, probably live quite comfortably in the digital world. The problem for schools in Thailand and elsewhere is that the teachers, let alone old guys in Ministries of Education, are 20 years adrift in terms of ways and means of learning and the purposes of education.

If Universities like the Open University and others are the way forward, you still come back to the point that

students need friends and learning communities

[culicine]

Personally I think that a good school in Thailand compares to a medium school in Australia. An average one here is at the level of a school in one of the poorer suburbs the kind where attendance and interest is not good. I doubt if any school here is better than say the top 20% of Australian government schools.

I think some of the negative comments about Thai schools come from people who as they came from a higher economic status family went to slightly better schools than some of the poorer people who have to put up with lower quality schooling and never have the means to move here. There is a tendency to think all schools are like the best ones at home just as they think here all schools are like the worst.

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/6321/1/Schools_in_Disadvantaged_Areas_Recognising_context_and_raising_quality.pdf

I've had several students go from my EP to study for a year in Australia/US. They went to the equivalent grade and told me they had already covered the topics (maths) in my classes. One of my average students went to his US class and the teacher was entering him in math competitions there. I didn't think he was all that good lol. The same goes for a girl who went to transferred to St Stephens for 9th grade. Again she had already covered that work in my classes the year before.

Students from regular Thai schools have already covered that work too, but as they study in Thai of course they would have much more difficulty studying in english. I'm not sure why any parent, considering sending them to study overseas for university, would have their child study in a Thai program school. A friends son managed that, but he was very bright and studied extra classes in english (he got STA 800 for maths, 755 for critical reading). Bright kids rise to the top regardless of what school, by and large, of what they are sent too. s long as the students can pass some form of international exam, they can enter to study overseas, regardless of whether they studied in an international school, EP, or a regular Thai school. Getting a job overseas based on just a Thai degree is another kettle of fish.

[culicine]

Personally I think that a good school in Thailand compares to a medium school in Australia. An average one here is at the level of a school in one of the poorer suburbs the kind where attendance and interest is not good. I doubt if any school here is better than say the top 20% of Australian government schools.

I think some of the negative comments about Thai schools come from people who as they came from a higher economic status family went to slightly better schools than some of the poorer people who have to put up with lower quality schooling and never have the means to move here. There is a tendency to think all schools are like the best ones at home just as they think here all schools are like the worst.

http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/6321/1/Schools_in_Disadvantaged_Areas_Recognising_context_and_raising_quality.pdf

I've had several students go from my EP to study for a year in Australia/US. They went to the equivalent grade and told me they had already covered the topics (maths) in my classes. One of my average students went to his US class and the teacher was entering him in math competitions there. I didn't think he was all that good lol. The same goes for a girl who went to transferred to St Stephens for 9th grade. Again she had already covered that work in my classes the year before.

Students from regular Thai schools have already covered that work too, but as they study in Thai of course they would have much more difficulty studying in english. I'm not sure why any parent, considering sending them to study overseas for university, would have their child study in a Thai program school. A friends son managed that, but he was very bright and studied extra classes in english (he got STA 800 for maths, 755 for critical reading). Bright kids rise to the top regardless of what school, by and large, of what they are sent too. s long as the students can pass some form of international exam, they can enter to study overseas, regardless of whether they studied in an international school, EP, or a regular Thai school. Getting a job overseas based on just a Thai degree is another kettle of fish.

[Deacon Bell]

People should also consider the option of them doing the iGSCE exams at around 16 yrs of age.

Many Chinese families pull their children out of Thai schools at age 14, spend 2 years studying for the iGSCE exams privately. Not that expensive and available through the British Council and others.

At 16 they sit the iGCSE exams, 5 passes allows them to enter university.

This is the same examinations that students do at International Schools here.

I think it is a very good option for students aged 14-16 or 15-17. Instead of being cooked up in a Thai school (even the good EP ones) with all the restrictive routine, they would study with like minded people at a private center with a loose daily time-table, allowing them free social time/study time or whatever. No uniforms and marching and being shouted at to sit still and be quiet for 9 hours a day. They study at an internation level (Cambridge) and have an international qualification instead of just the Thai M6 Cert.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[Deacon Bell]

This is a very good homeschool idea from people in Udon Thani.

Hopefully more and more of this sort of thing will happen as Thailand develops.

http://home-school-udon-thani.com/

"The English School of Learning is opening a Monday to Friday Home School initiative in Udon Thani which will follow the English National Curriculum!

The Home School will have no more than twelve students who will all be taught by a Native English Speaking teacher with a Masters Degree and 23 years experience in the education system. The teacher will be assisted by a Bilingual Thai/English speaking assistant teacher. All the English National Curriculum resources will come direct from the UK."

[brucetefl]

But Home Schooling in Thailand is actually illegal. But when I was having my kids home schooled everyone knew. Even friends in the MOE. But I needed the help of the private Pratom school to allow them to skip years and come back in.

[zeichen]

"But Home Schooling in Thailand is actually illegal."

Not true. It has been legal for many years at least 8 that I know of.

[brucetefl]

Yes my info is outdated.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Thailand/default.asp

Compulsory Attendance Ages: 7–16

Legal Status: Homeschooling is legal. Thailand’s constitution and education law explicitly recognize alternative education and considers the family to be an educational institution. In addition, Thai homeschoolers successfully petitioned the government for a homeschool law, which was passed in 2004. Ministerial Regulation No. 3 on the “right to basic education by the family” governs homeschooling. Families must submit an application to homeschool and students are assessed annually.

I would be interested in the application and assessment process.

[laolover88]

People should also consider the option of them doing the iGSCE exams at around 16 yrs of age.

Many Chinese families pull their children out of Thai schools at age 14, spend 2 years studying for the iGSCE exams privately. Not that expensive and available through the British Council and others.

At 16 they sit the iGCSE exams, 5 passes allows them to enter university.

This is the same examinations that students do at International Schools here.

I think it is a very good option for students aged 14-16 or 15-17. Instead of being cooked up in a Thai school (even the good EP ones) with all the restrictive routine, they would study with like minded people at a private center with a loose daily time-table, allowing them free social time/study time or whatever. No uniforms and marching and being shouted at to sit still and be quiet for 9 hours a day. They study at an international level (Cambridge) and have an international qualification instead of just the Thai M6 Cert.

I think this right. You have to 'play the system'.We have put the children through P6 and M1. Now in 2 years or so we will pull them out for iCGSE. M6 Cert may help in Thailand. Of not much use in Europe. We will probably send/take themto Europe for 16-18. Any Lycee/6th Form/Inter school will do OK. We are looking at 6th forms where we live. International Schools in Lyon/Graz

My only concern is that they do not lose their Thai!

And that they have the qualifications, if needed, to pursue their chosen lives!

A PS..my wife says to remind people that Thai Secondary Schools have entry quotas. They may not be admitted to the school of your choice and end up with the, how shall we say, 'less able', possibly on the basis of their competence in Thai in the subjects in which they are perfectly competent!!

[laolover88]

How do you think most Thai Teachers would re-act to /engage with Minecraft?

[Thai at Heart]

Hi David,

I was a language teacher here for twenty years so I am more than qualified to tell you how it is. The Thai education system suppresses any creativity and imagination from K1 onwards. The kids are programmed to be followers and are taught how to remember stuff in order to pass an exam. By the end of grade 6, you have a young person with almost zero imagination and no initiative. The kids sorely lack analytical skills and are unable to work together in groups to problem solve. International schools do not follow this concept by the way so if the funds can stretch then you will get a decent education for your kids. Seriously consider this before sending your kids to a Thai school.

Personally have two boys here, both at Uni now, I gave them the input they needed outside of school hours from day one and subsequently they are above average regarding thinking outside the box.

Rote learning is the norm here and I don't see anything on the horizon that will change it.

i enjoyed reading your post,an i agree 110%,the thai education system is poor,and i blame this partly on the langauge,which at is at best elemntary and repititious and at its worst is elementary and crude,i have a 2 mnth old,my wife speaks no english and we speak thai all day,i now have to decide when to teach her english so we dont pollute my sons future,i want my son to think and create and question and feel fullfilled,and hopefull, with out feeling obligated to use the word``krap``(which just drives me crazy,i know it is thier culture,but),thais dont have the abilty to express them selves becuase the language,and the ciriculum, wont allow it,so they use the same phrases,the same old worn out lesson`s and the same silly songs, over and over.which keeps them stuck ,supressed and robotic...one mans opinion

your grasp of the thai language and its subtleties is lacking

His grasp of how to raise a bilingual child is wrong. He has to take responsibility for English and mother responsibility for Thai.

To think that linguistically English doesn't have the same types of conformity as Thai is nonsense. It can be extremely liberating for a kid to learn two languages.

[Thai at Heart]

People should also consider the option of them doing the iGSCE exams at around 16 yrs of age.

Many Chinese families pull their children out of Thai schools at age 14, spend 2 years studying for the iGSCE exams privately. Not that expensive and available through the British Council and others.

At 16 they sit the iGCSE exams, 5 passes allows them to enter university.

This is the same examinations that students do at International Schools here.

I think it is a very good option for students aged 14-16 or 15-17. Instead of being cooked up in a Thai school (even the good EP ones) with all the restrictive routine, they would study with like minded people at a private center with a loose daily time-table, allowing them free social time/study time or whatever. No uniforms and marching and being shouted at to sit still and be quiet for 9 hours a day. They study at an internation level (Cambridge) and have an international qualification instead of just the Thai M6 Cert.

The scariest part of this is that 5GCSE gets one into university.....

My neighbour asked me how many I did in my day, and then I explained the concept of A Levels.

[AyG]

People should also consider the option of them doing the iGSCE exams at around 16 yrs of age.

Many Chinese families pull their children out of Thai schools at age 14, spend 2 years studying for the iGSCE exams privately. Not that expensive and available through the British Council and others.

At 16 they sit the iGCSE exams, 5 passes allows them to enter university.

This is the same examinations that students do at International Schools here.

I think it is a very good option for students aged 14-16 or 15-17. Instead of being cooked up in a Thai school (even the good EP ones) with all the restrictive routine, they would study with like minded people at a private center with a loose daily time-table, allowing them free social time/study time or whatever. No uniforms and marching and being shouted at to sit still and be quiet for 9 hours a day. They study at an internation level (Cambridge) and have an international qualification instead of just the Thai M6 Cert.

The scariest part of this is that 5GCSE gets one into university.....

My neighbour asked me how many I did in my day, and then I explained the concept of A Levels.

It's not scary. It's plain wrong.

14 years + 2 to do an iGCSE = 16 years old. Thai students don't go to university at 16 to study for a degree. 18 at the earliest. 5 GCSE's simply doesn't pass muster.

And the concept of A levels is not alien to Thais. They have O-NET and A-NET which correspond to O-levels and A-levels (as were).

[AnotherOneAmerican]

A PS..my wife says to remind people that Thai Secondary Schools have entry quotas. They may not be admitted to the school of your choice and end up with the, how shall we say, 'less able', possibly on the basis of their competence in Thai in the subjects in which they are perfectly competent!!

Not to mention,

Thai government high schools eject 2/3 of their students at age 15.

They are then left to pay for a private vocational college, or not complete high school.

[thailand49]

In a sense we are missing the point, I think.

On the plane yesterday. Every Thai child has an i-pad. At the Tutors every Thai child has an i-phone or a Samsung Galaxy. They are not playing games. They are exploring the digital world.

Provided you have a supportive facilitative environment the possibilities for them are huge. Khan Academy is great.

www.themathsfactor.com is good.

You, that is parents, probably live quite comfortably in the digital world. The problem for schools in Thailand and elsewhere is that the teachers, let alone old guys in Ministries of Education, are 20 years adrift in terms of ways and means of learning and the purposes of education.

If Universities like the Open University and others are the way forward, you still come back to the point that

students need friends and learning communities

You do know the majority of Thais are poor can not afford to get on a airplane let alone buy I-pads etc... The proof is the number of government Thai school vs. private international school. And if all Thai do have these things it is not because the last election they promise each child would have one well my son is still waiting and I hope he doesn't hold his breath?

[Deacon Bell]

A little bit on info on the iGCSE offered at an International School in Rayong:

http://www.gardenrayong.com/upper_secondary_years_10-11.html

Of course these subjects, or whatever subjects the student or parents want can be studied and prepped privately at centers, which I imagine would cut down on the cost and also allow the student more freedom.

[CaptHaddock]

Home schooling, on the other hand, amounts to an experiment in turning your kid's education over to an amateur. Anyone considering going that route should imagine how ready he would be to hire himself as a teacher given what in most cases would be the complete absence of qualifications, preparation, and experience.

[Deacon Bell]

Home schooling, on the other hand, amounts to an experiment in turning your kid's education over to an amateur. Anyone considering going that route should imagine how ready he would be to hire himself as a teacher given what in most cases would be the complete absence of qualifications, preparation, and experience.

Many part homeschool (about 10 hrs p/w), and also either go to a Thai school or have a private local tutor come to teach them privately. Some have a Filipino teacher come for a few hours p/w.

A Filipino teacher for 4 hours (9-11am and 12-2pm) on both Sat. and Sunday. With the Western parent doing 2 hours p/d 4 days p/w would likely give them a decent education, as long as there are social activities with the Homeschool groups in the country.

Even a Thai teacher for 2 hours and then a Filipino for 2 hours every Sat and Sunday, privately in the student's house would be a decent top up to a parent part homeschooling them.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[Fellini]

How do you think most Thai Teachers would re-act to /engage with Minecraft?

Minecraft sucks.

Play some good gaimz, for Chrissakes. Like Fallout: New Vegas and Mass Effect 2.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Fellini

[zeichen]

I wonder all of those that are degrading the Thai educational system have partners that are Thai? Do you have such little respect for your partner? Don't you think that successful Thai people learn anything here?

I will not defend the Thai system nor praise it but it is what it is.

For those that talk about how it stifles creativity and critical thinking, watch this. Sir Ken Robinson says the same thing about western education.

As for captain haddock "Home schooling, on the other hand, amounts to an experiment in turning your kid's education over to an amateur. Anyone considering going that route should imagine how ready he would be to hire himself as a teacher given what in most cases would be the complete absence of qualifications, preparation, and experience. "

What a total load of rubbish. First of all there are many well defined home school curricula out there that allow students to move at the pace they need. Typically speaking in most schools you waste nearly 40% of the day on non educational things. Because of the access to the social and specialized courses available privately in the modern market all things that a parent is weak in can be supplemented.

As another poster has suggested there is no one correct solution for education. First of all most of the holier than though pontificating here probably haven't actually been a student in more than 2 decades and have no idea of what the future of education holds or what the demands are of the future.

There are many factors to consider. 1 would be where David and Farmgirl want to live. 2. If the boys really want to stay Thai citizens and live here are they willing to do military? How successful would they be in Thailand if they were raised primarily in Australia and then dropped here as adults with little Thai ability and the proper networking that they get in school.

I doubt that David would ever send his kids to a bottom barrel government school but there are many good mid range schools that will allow them mobility.

As for the linguist experts out there about bilingualism. There are many ways to attain bilingualism so don't stress him out even more.

Congrats again. Your boys look healthy and strong and that is the most important thing. With the good heart that you and Farmgirl have those boys will do well regardless.

[Thai at Heart]

People should also consider the option of them doing the iGSCE exams at around 16 yrs of age.

Many Chinese families pull their children out of Thai schools at age 14, spend 2 years studying for the iGSCE exams privately. Not that expensive and available through the British Council and others.

At 16 they sit the iGCSE exams, 5 passes allows them to enter university.

This is the same examinations that students do at International Schools here.

I think it is a very good option for students aged 14-16 or 15-17. Instead of being cooked up in a Thai school (even the good EP ones) with all the restrictive routine, they would study with like minded people at a private center with a loose daily time-table, allowing them free social time/study time or whatever. No uniforms and marching and being shouted at to sit still and be quiet for 9 hours a day. They study at an internation level (Cambridge) and have an international qualification instead of just the Thai M6 Cert.

The scariest part of this is that 5GCSE gets one into university.....

My neighbour asked me how many I did in my day, and then I explained the concept of A Levels.

It's not scary. It's plain wrong.

14 years + 2 to do an iGCSE = 16 years old. Thai students don't go to university at 16 to study for a degree. 18 at the earliest. 5 GCSE's simply doesn't pass muster.

And the concept of A levels is not alien to Thais. They have O-NET and A-NET which correspond to O-levels and A-levels (as were).

As far as I have heard IGCSE gets entry into some Thai universities. I was only answering the above message.

[Deacon Bell]

5 iGCSE passes are stamped as equivalent to the M6 Cert by the Thai MoE.

[Bcgardener]

A little bit on info on the iGCSE offered at an International School in Rayong:

http://www.gardenrayong.com/upper_secondary_years_10-11.html

Of course these subjects, or whatever subjects the student or parents want can be studied and prepped privately at centers, which I imagine would cut down on the cost and also allow the student more freedom.

My daughter has just finished her igcse exams at Garden Rayong. A lot of the kids with Thai parents are leaving to start Thai university but the bulk of the non Thai or luk krung are continuing on for IB. Yes, most are 16 years old and I agree, too young and immature for university.

[Deacon Bell]

A little bit on info on the iGCSE offered at an International School in Rayong:

http://www.gardenrayong.com/upper_secondary_years_10-11.html

Of course these subjects, or whatever subjects the student or parents want can be studied and prepped privately at centers, which I imagine would cut down on the cost and also allow the student more freedom.

My daughter has just finished her igcse exams at Garden Rayong. A lot of the kids with Thai parents are leaving to start Thai university but the bulk of the non Thai or luk krung are continuing on for IB. Yes, most are 16 years old and I agree, too young and immature for university.

They might just fit right in at Thai Uni then.

From what I have read, a Thai teacher with a B.Ed from a Thai Uni is on par education wise, with those finishing high school in Europe and America.

[brucetefl]

The modern education system which we all use was initially created by the Prussians several hundred years ago to train bureaucrats and army officers. At the time it was to create yes men, not creative thinkers. Today it's more like warehousing children so parents have time to do other things.

John Holt, the famous American educator and author who wrote "How Children Fail"...

(read his book HERE) http://www.cep-elqui.org/uploads/6/8/2/3/6823046/how-children-fail-john-holt.pdf

... was asked by the US Department of Education to assist in the reorganization of the US school system. After a few months he resigned. He said the only way to make the education system better would be to completely destroyed and build it up from scratch.

He was a strong advocate of homeschooling.

Edited August 4, 2014 by brucetefl

[Scott]

School systems provide a number of functions, education is just one. They also exist to teach children how to be a member of a country and community. In our home countries we have similar things, but in Thailand this includes teaching them to respect elders (teachers), to wai properly, to do traditional dance and to sing the national anthem loudly etc.

Unfortunately, sometimes it doesn't get too far beyond that.