Buddhism - on lying

[onlycw]

Can someone shed a light on this?

 

Over the years, I've often been upset by needless falsehood. Promises etc. Even in a professional environment, lying is all too common.

 

Why go round and make promises one doesn't intend to keep? Why pretend to want English lessons? Why announce a party which will never take place? Just wondering.

 

Q2: Lying doesn't bring loss of face?

[camerata]

For Buddhists, lying violates the 4th Precept "to abstain from false speech," so it is to be avoided if one wants to have peace of mind. However, lots of people don't bother much about the precepts.

[robblok]

For Buddhists, lying violates the 4th Precept "to abstain from false speech," so it is to be avoided if one wants to have peace of mind. However, lots of people don't bother much about the precepts.

That is the same as in any religion. People only follow what they like.

[rockyysdt]

Lying to "save face" isn't a Buddhist thing, it's an attempt to support ones Ego.

 

I've heard that "loss of face" is a strong cultural stance by many Thais.

 

 

Naturally lying, in the long term is negative and can lead to suffering and harm.

 

As Camerata has indicated the Buddha taught against lying in the precepts.

 

• I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.

 

There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, "Come & tell, good man, what you know": If he doesn't know, he says, "I don't know." If he does know, he says, "I know." If he hasn't seen, he says, "I haven't seen." If he has seen, he says, "I have seen." Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech.

 

 

By the way, the Buddha did not refer to lying as sinful, rather he indicated it was unwise conduct, to be avoided.

 

In the West we call it ethical conduct.

 

In terms of your second question, when one lies to save face, at the very least one is cheating oneself.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2014 by rockyysdt

[RandomSand]

I hate lying and the Thai palliative habit of "smoothing" things over often rubs westerners up the wrong way or makes them perceive Thais as dishonest.

 

How about this "for some people: a lie is not a lie if the intention is true"

 

This could be a great thread if we start talking about the nature of truth and why humans try to control anthers perception of reality through the use of disinformation.

Edited August 2, 2014 by RandomSand

[DogNo1]

Telling the truth can be harmful too. It all depends on the circumstances.

[RandomSand]

It would be interesting to insert a truth serum into all drinking water on a worldwide basis.

[CharlieH]

Post removed


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[fabianfred]

As the Buddha said ... if what we about to say does not lead to harmony then keep silent.... when speaking of others mention only their good points and when speaking of ourselves mention only our bad points...

 

Like all actions which can create karma.....lying can cause much or little depending upon the situation and whether suffering was caused and how much. There is no flat rate for karma since every situation is unique...

Edited August 3, 2014 by fabianfred

[Kf6vci]

Thanks for these answers! 

 

Phuket Immigration tried to calm worried semi-qualified teachers. While their same office confirmed the order to hunt for offenders in 9 of the 13 (?) districts. Uhu. 

 

At my work place, every body was instructed to collect a shirt for some special event. The shirts weren't there. We were told to come back on a certain day the following week. Then on "Thursday". Finally, on Friday, the truth came out: No shirts!

 

But then, some staff made the rounds with a list of all employees, soliciting cash donations for the purchase of shirts "for the students". 

[alant]

Lying to "save face" isn't a Buddhist thing, it's an attempt to support ones Ego.

 

I've heard that "loss of face" is a strong cultural stance by many Thais.

 

 

Naturally lying, in the long term is negative and can lead to suffering and harm.

 

As Camerata has indicated the Buddha taught against lying in the precepts.

 

• I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.

 

There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, "Come & tell, good man, what you know": If he doesn't know, he says, "I don't know." If he does know, he says, "I know." If he hasn't seen, he says, "I haven't seen." If he has seen, he says, "I have seen." Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech.

 

 

By the way, the Buddha did not refer to lying as sinful, rather he indicated it was unwise conduct, to be avoided.

 

In the West we call it ethical conduct.

 

In terms of your second question, when one lies to save face, at the very least one is cheating oneself.

 

 

I recall a representative of Her Majesty the Queen's government referring to it as "being economical with the truth" 

[uptheos]

Lying to "save face" isn't a Buddhist thing, it's an attempt to support ones Ego.

 

I've heard that "loss of face" is a strong cultural stance by many Thais.

 

 

Naturally lying, in the long term is negative and can lead to suffering and harm.

 

As Camerata has indicated the Buddha taught against lying in the precepts.

 

• I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.

 

There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, "Come & tell, good man, what you know": If he doesn't know, he says, "I don't know." If he does know, he says, "I know." If he hasn't seen, he says, "I haven't seen." If he has seen, he says, "I have seen." Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech.

 

 

By the way, the Buddha did not refer to lying as sinful, rather he indicated it was unwise conduct, to be avoided.

 

In the West we call it ethical conduct.

 

In terms of your second question, when one lies to save face, at the very least one is cheating oneself.

 

 

 

He could not, as sin is an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

Buddha was not divine.

[1FinickyOne]

Have you ever been somewhere where lying is not commonplace? Esp. in business dealings? 

 

Where I come from in the Western World, if a lady were to ask if you like her hat, it might be less polite if you told the truth than if you lied… 

 

people ask too many questions anyway… 

 

If you are asking abt Thailand in particular, certain "lies" are built into the language & culture - if someone asks me for a bottle of whiskey, the appropriate response is "proong nee" - tomorrrow - it is understood as "no" but not a direct rejection, softer and more polite...

 

And by the way, if you are wearing a hat at the moment, I am sure it looks lovely on you...

[Paulzed]

Thai's consider bending the truth, especially when talking to a Farung as being clever.

[Artist]

Lying to "save face" isn't a Buddhist thing, it's an attempt to support ones Ego.

 

I've heard that "loss of face" is a strong cultural stance by many Thais.

 

 

Naturally lying, in the long term is negative and can lead to suffering and harm.

 

As Camerata has indicated the Buddha taught against lying in the precepts.

 

• I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.

 

There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, "Come & tell, good man, what you know": If he doesn't know, he says, "I don't know." If he does know, he says, "I know." If he hasn't seen, he says, "I haven't seen." If he has seen, he says, "I have seen." Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech.

 

 

By the way, the Buddha did not refer to lying as sinful, rather he indicated it was unwise conduct, to be avoided.

 

In the West we call it ethical conduct.

 

In terms of your second question, when one lies to save face, at the very least one is cheating oneself.

 

 

 

Isn't "saving face" often about saving the face of the other person?  That is not to embarrass them?

 

In English we would call this a "white lie".  If a lady says to you "Do you like my new dress"  your reply "It's lovely"  not revealing your true thoughts that it is hideous.

 

So lying is not always bad, egotistical or harmful and Thai people habitually lie to protect the other person.

[dotpoom]

I have a step daughter who couldn't tell you the truth if you asked her what time of day it was.   Some people go through life with their defenses constantly on the alert and cannot help lying.

[TheFishman1]

If they said it in English it doesn't count

[spidermike007]

Lying to "save face" isn't a Buddhist thing, it's an attempt to support ones Ego.

 

I've heard that "loss of face" is a strong cultural stance by many Thais.

 

 

Naturally lying, in the long term is negative and can lead to suffering and harm.

 

As Camerata has indicated the Buddha taught against lying in the precepts.

 

• I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.

 

There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, "Come & tell, good man, what you know": If he doesn't know, he says, "I don't know." If he does know, he says, "I know." If he hasn't seen, he says, "I haven't seen." If he has seen, he says, "I have seen." Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech.

 

 

By the way, the Buddha did not refer to lying as sinful, rather he indicated it was unwise conduct, to be avoided.

 

In the West we call it ethical conduct.

 

In terms of your second question, when one lies to save face, at the very least one is cheating oneself.

 

 

 

 

 

My guess is that the Buddha taught nothing of face. If he did, it was probably an encouragement to lose face as often as possible, so as to shatter the ego. Face is nothing but ego. It is nothing but a lack of manhood being expressed. It is nothing but extreme cowardice, and in my opinion is the opposite of everything Buddhism stands for. If you really think about it, face is really nothing more that the inability to look within, to introspect, to reflect, and to improve as an individual. It corrodes the soul. It prevents spiritual growth. It retards forward development. It hold a person back, from any sort of advancement. Only when we are able to look within, admit fault with ourselves, take responsibility, and show remorse for poor actions on our own parts, are we able to advance as a people, or as an individual. Face prevents all of that, and serves as a weak excuse for not looking within, and taking blame for anything. It is a blight on the face of Asia. Face is abhorrent behavior. So is lying. And if lying is used to save face, it may be the ultimate form of offensive behavior, and a huge spiritual transgression. And from a spiritual point of view, lying might be the ultimate form of laziness. On many levels, it is the opposite of spiritual development and growth. 

 

I know I will hear about all the reasons for face. About all the social implications, etc, etc. I do not give a hoot about the culture behind face. I am simply talking about face as a form of extreme personal weakness. I am talking about the negativity of the trait, and how it holds people back, in regard to the spiritual life, and the precepts of Buddhism, or any other faith for that matter. Face is the very opposite of spirituality, and therefore Buddhism. All those opinions expressed are my own of course. And they are just opinions. But, I think they may have some validity. What do you think?

[merlen10002]

More than one Thai lady told me lying was OK for Thai people if it makes their life better, ???

[Krataiboy]

"What do you think of my new hair-do, darling".

 

(Thinks: Good grief! She looks like Harpo Marx after being pulled through a hedge backwards).

 

"Absolutely gorgeous, darling!"

 

Sometimes it's best to lie.

[arjunadawn]

I hate lying and the Thai palliative habit of "smoothing" things over often rubs westerners up the wrong way or makes them perceive Thais as dishonest.
 
How about this "for some people: a lie is not a lie if the intention is true"
 
This could be a great thread if we start talking about the nature of truth and why humans try to control anthers perception of reality through the use of disinformation.

I've has various influences and discoveries over the years that confirm in me that humans are not aware of how, fundamentally, they interact with the world. Instead, they really do feed the ego, the creation if themselves. Formed from birth, family, school, self discovery, etc., they grow to declare I Am bob, or Sally, or Noi. They look out at the world and increasingly limit what enters, and how they deport, to polish their own perception of self. They broadcast this self to the world. "Hello, I am..."

Now here's where people, like my lovely sister, enter the excessive behaviors of this universal phenomena: like a drama queen, a choreographer, people manage others in their lives to enable the stagecraft of how they envision the world to be. It's 1/2 intention and 1/2 random cast assigning, but through emotional leveraging, lying, behavior, etc., they compel those around them to fill the various scripts and the NEEDS their emotional self demand. With people who lie, though not always, you'll often see a strong emotional character because they're also likely to extend their emotions into fully functioning extensions of their senses, rather than subordinate tools.

Lying becomes a means to shore up the redoubts of their fortress. They may lie for gain, for protection of others, or habitually, but at it's core people lie because through this mechanism they more directly manipulate the world. However, it's delusion of course. Invariably the casualty of lies are not others but the Self. Our true nature becomes more occult and even our created vision of self becomes fractured, disjointed, and unable to withstand scrutiny. Some people simply fail at maturing as humans without pathology.

[arjunadawn]

Lying to "save face" isn't a Buddhist thing, it's an attempt to support ones Ego.
 
I've heard that "loss of face" is a strong cultural stance by many Thais.
 
 
Naturally lying, in the long term is negative and can lead to suffering and harm.
 
As Camerata has indicated the Buddha taught against lying in the precepts.
 

• I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.

 
There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, "Come & tell, good man, what you know": If he doesn't know, he says, "I don't know." If he does know, he says, "I know." If he hasn't seen, he says, "I haven't seen." If he has seen, he says, "I have seen." Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech.
 
 
By the way, the Buddha did not refer to lying as sinful, rather he indicated it was unwise conduct, to be avoided.
 
In the West we call it ethical conduct.
 
In terms of your second question, when one lies to save face, at the very least one is cheating oneself.
 
 

 
 
 
My guess is that the Buddha taught nothing of face. If he did, it was probably an encouragement to lose face as often as possible, so as to shatter the ego. Face is nothing but ego. It is nothing but a lack of manhood being expressed. It is nothing but extreme cowardice, and in my opinion is the opposite of everything Buddhism stands for. If you really think about it, face is really nothing more that the inability to look within, to introspect, to reflect, and to improve as an individual. It corrodes the soul. It prevents spiritual growth. It retards forward development. It hold a person back, from any sort of advancement. Only when we are able to look within, admit fault with ourselves, take responsibility, and show remorse for poor actions on our own parts, are we able to advance as a people, or as an individual. Face prevents all of that, and serves as a weak excuse for not looking within, and taking blame for anything. It is a blight on the face of Asia. Face is abhorrent behavior. So is lying. And if lying is used to save face, it may be the ultimate form of offensive behavior, and a huge spiritual transgression. And from a spiritual point of view, lying might be the ultimate form of laziness. On many levels, it is the opposite of spiritual development and growth. 
 
I know I will hear about all the reasons for face. About all the social implications, etc, etc. I do not give a hoot about the culture behind face. I am simply talking about face as a form of extreme personal weakness. I am talking about the negativity of the trait, and how it holds people back, in regard to the spiritual life, and the precepts of Buddhism, or any other faith for that matter. Face is the very opposite of spirituality, and therefore Buddhism. All those opinions expressed are my own of course. And they are just opinions. But, I think they may have some validity. What do you think?

This is brilliant!

[JulesMad]

It would be interesting to insert a truth serum into all drinking water on a worldwide basis.

 

Yes, that would be extremely interesting   

 

However (there is always a 'however....'), I am afraid there would be a lot of (verbal) fighting, as many  people will not be happy hearing the truth.... It might be very confronting and most people don't handle that very well
 

[hobz]

Pretending to be a bhuddist and actually following all the rules / principles is two very very very different things. 

Besides, not even monks are perfect.

 

*edit* Face (saving face) is something that is in complete conflict with Buddhist teachings. 

Face = EGO EGO EGO

Buddhism = FREEDOM FROM EGO - DEATH OF EGO - etc .. 

COMPLETE CONFLICT .

 

 

*edit2* My home country is Christian,, and there's many Christian traditions and holidays. But very few people try to follow Christian principles.. I think it could be the same here in Thailand... The people are Buddhist, so they honor buddhist holidays and traditions and go to the temple etc. But they don't try to live by the teachings and/or they just pick and choose among the teachings that fit their own agenda. Sort of like italian mafiosos would ask for forgivness and stuff.. but then go out and kill again, and come back and ask for forgiveness again..

 

*edit3* I would go as far as saying that because of the whole "saving face"-thing, Thai people in general are missing the most important point of buddhism.

Edited August 4, 2014 by hobz

[Alwyn]

It's easy to know when politicians are lying, Thai or otherwise; Their lips are moving.

[hobz]

More than one Thai lady told me lying was OK for Thai people if it makes their life better, ???

 

And this is completely opposite of buddhist teachings as I interpret buddhist teachings :)

 

It's almost like comparing doing all the deadly sins at all times for a Christian :)

[nicothai]

I live in Thailand from very long time and I find very common lying between Thai. They even lie when is not needed
And this is another huge contradiction of this country... Why?




Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Eloelo]

 

Lying to "save face" isn't a Buddhist thing, it's an attempt to support ones Ego.

 

I've heard that "loss of face" is a strong cultural stance by many Thais.

 

 

Naturally lying, in the long term is negative and can lead to suffering and harm.

 

As Camerata has indicated the Buddha taught against lying in the precepts.

 

• I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech.

 

There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, "Come & tell, good man, what you know": If he doesn't know, he says, "I don't know." If he does know, he says, "I know." If he hasn't seen, he says, "I haven't seen." If he has seen, he says, "I have seen." Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech.

 

 

By the way, the Buddha did not refer to lying as sinful, rather he indicated it was unwise conduct, to be avoided.

 

In the West we call it ethical conduct.

 

In terms of your second question, when one lies to save face, at the very least one is cheating oneself.

 

 

 

 

 

My guess is that the Buddha taught nothing of face. If he did, it was probably an encouragement to lose face as often as possible, so as to shatter the ego. Face is nothing but ego. It is nothing but a lack of manhood being expressed. It is nothing but extreme cowardice, and in my opinion is the opposite of everything Buddhism stands for. If you really think about it, face is really nothing more that the inability to look within, to introspect, to reflect, and to improve as an individual. It corrodes the soul. It prevents spiritual growth. It retards forward development. It hold a person back, from any sort of advancement. Only when we are able to look within, admit fault with ourselves, take responsibility, and show remorse for poor actions on our own parts, are we able to advance as a people, or as an individual. Face prevents all of that, and serves as a weak excuse for not looking within, and taking blame for anything. It is a blight on the face of Asia. Face is abhorrent behavior. So is lying. And if lying is used to save face, it may be the ultimate form of offensive behavior, and a huge spiritual transgression. And from a spiritual point of view, lying might be the ultimate form of laziness. On many levels, it is the opposite of spiritual development and growth. 

 

I know I will hear about all the reasons for face. About all the social implications, etc, etc. I do not give a hoot about the culture behind face. I am simply talking about face as a form of extreme personal weakness. I am talking about the negativity of the trait, and how it holds people back, in regard to the spiritual life, and the precepts of Buddhism, or any other faith for that matter. Face is the very opposite of spirituality, and therefore Buddhism. All those opinions expressed are my own of course. And they are just opinions. But, I think they may have some validity. What do you think?

 

You could not have expressed the idea of face being the opposite of spiritual growth any better! part of our purpose on planet earth is to develop spiritual qualities and to learn to walk the path. our souls know this, Saving face and lying could  not be further from Buddhas teachings as well as our own understanding and inner moral compass.Hypocrisy is rampant along with all other negative connotations of what determines spiritual growth, self responsibility & accountability, perhaps the reason the new order in Thailand is determined to send back Thailand 50 years to its original roots of a Buddhist country is the fact that saving face and lying has become so ingrained in thai culture that it has now lost its way spiritually, and is on a self destructive course!

[smotherb]

It would be interesting to insert a truth serum into all drinking water on a worldwide basis.

 

Did you ever see Liar, Liar, a Jim Carey movie?

[rockyysdt]

 

It would be interesting to insert a truth serum into all drinking water on a worldwide basis.

 

Did you ever see Liar, Liar, a Jim Carey movie?

 

 

To lie is also to mislead.

 

lying or misleading is not only universal, it also involves the animal kingdom.

 

An example of lying or deception in the animal kingdom is when a bird was observed to feign a broken wing to divert the attention of a predator from its eggs and nest.

 

 

There are many types of lies.

Humans entire lives revolve around lying, deception & exaggeration.

 

Maintaining Ego and Self Image revolves around lying.

 

 

I would say, that abstaining from false speech is the most difficult precept to keep.