Thai editorial: How do we rein in rogue cops?

[Artisi]

Drug dealers must be eliminated from Thai society in what ever way possible. They don't love the country hence cannot be called Thai people.

Yep, definitely eliminate all drug dealers,  even if you have to kill hundreds or even thousands of innocent people.

 

The way to go.   

[impulse]

Same thing happened in the U.S. recently. Plain clothes tobacco and alcohol officials surronded a car of university students they thought had bought alcohol with a false I.D. Turns out it was mineral water. Nevertheless they arrested the girls on trumped up charges. After news and the bad press got out, the girls were released and, after suing, settled for several hundred thousand dollars. There has to be a way to  recognize overzealous cops and make sure they get proper training before being released on an unsuspecting public.

 

While I agree in principle, the problem is that it's taxpayer who have to pay the zillion dollar settlements.  

 

The proper response is to jail the officers who file trumped up charges and otherwise abuse the powers we have trusted them with.

 

All proper respect and admiration for the cops that do their job, but zero tolerance for those who abuse OUR power that WE have trusted them with, using weapons and powers WE allow them (exclusively) to wield.  

 

It ain't theirs to toy with- it's OURS.

Edited August 7, 2014 by impulse

[WhizBang]

Drug dealers must be eliminated from Thai society in what ever way possible. They don't love the country hence cannot be called Thai people.

 

Ahhhh, another good Thai Buddhist heard from.  The end justifies the means.  Yes?

[deecee10]

"Drug dealers must be eliminated from Thai society in what ever way possible. They don't love the country hence cannot be called Thai people."

 

The totalitarian message behind that statement, whereby everything is justified as a means to an end,really is scary stuff.

[WhizBang]

Same thing happened in the U.S. recently. Plain clothes tobacco and alcohol officials surronded a car of university students they thought had bought alcohol with a false I.D. Turns out it was mineral water. Nevertheless they arrested the girls on trumped up charges. After news and the bad press got out, the girls were released and, after suing, settled for several hundred thousand dollars. There has to be a way to  recognize overzealous cops and make sure they get proper training before being released on an unsuspecting public.

 

Yes there has to be a way to recognize over zealous cops.  And the solution is to prevent them from ever becoming cops and getting anywhere near the public, especially if armed.

 

The main problem seems to be that many US (and other) police forces seem to want these macho over zealous types.  One thing that greatly troubles me is the militarization of the police, which also seems to go hand in hand with implicit immunity for their actions, no matter how over the top.

[selftaopath]

Not a great headline,  does the authorreally not know how to deal with rogue cops or officials,  politicians for that matter ?

The solution lies with the government and the police themselves who must introduce a zero tolerance policy.

 

The discipline procedure is a joke and there's an almost total reluctance to dismiss errant officers.  Similarly the courts don't inspire confidence.

Over the years where cops appear in court in countries like Britain,  only used as an example,  the phrase ' you have abused the public trust ' is almost automatic and just about guarantees a stiffer sentence.

 

It's almost the exact opposite here.

This country (citizens and government) reeks of Codependent Personality D/O so much that it's beyond redemption; along with all the insecurity of "wanting to look good" i.e. face. There will be no change, and Thailand will fall further and further behind developed and developing countries. It's already near N. Korea and similar places in a few regards. Pity...it could be so so so much more.

[Rorri]

soalbundy, on 07 Aug 2014 - 10:25, said:

 

Suriya4, on 07 Aug 2014 - 07:52, said:

Drug dealers must be eliminated from Thai society in what ever way possible. They don't love the country hence cannot be called Thai people.

Does a Thai have to sign a form saying he/she loves the country before getting a passport? I'm British but i don't '' love'' my country but i still get a passport. I was coincidentally born British just as a Thai is coincidentally born Thai,''love'' has nothing to do with it. Getting rid of drug dealers is a must, but not ''in whatever way possible'' Thaksin tried that and a lot of innocent people were murdered killed. 

 

Mmmm...I understand your comment, but try this, if a baby is born in the US, to Thai parents, is the baby Thai or American?

[northernjohn]

 

Drug dealers must be eliminated from Thai society in what ever way possible. They don't love the country hence cannot be called Thai people.

in what ever way possible

So, does that mean that rogue cops killing a uni student if they think they are eliminating a drug dealer is OK with you? Since you believe in 'what ever way possible', how about killing all the people in Thailand and then you would be sure to eliminate the drug dealers. I still trying to figure out what your post has to do with the OP about reining in rogue cops.

 

 

 

 

Good points

 

How ever it doesn't sound like rogue cops to me.

 

"The incident has attracted much criticism and spurred fear that something similar could befall any innocent motorist. Sunthorn Payak, vice president of the Lawyers Council of Thailand, commented that the three policemen's action could be regarded as attempted murder. Their reckless behaviour threatened life and property and violated the victim's rights, he said."

 

 

With all the drug dealing going on in Thailand I don't really consider one case of a suspect fleeing the scene and being shot at as rogue cops. Just officers doing their duty in a very suspicious situation.

 

In my opinion the police have handled the situation correctly and honorably. They have moved the officers to a desk position while investigating the situation the same as in any reputable police department and replaced the vehicle promptly for the victim.

 

If I was stopped on suspicion of drugs by police with drawn guns and I was innocent I would cooperate rather than make it look like they were right by running.

 

This is just another cheap shot at the police department in an attempt to make them all seem corrupt.

<   >happens in an imperfect world. Live with it this was a fortunate one where no one got hurt.

[tinhead]

I've seen how many a Thai love their yaabaa. Once could argue the contrary and say they're patriots.

 

 

Drug dealers must be eliminated from Thai society in what ever way possible. They don't love the country hence cannot be called Thai people.

 

[northernjohn]

 

I ask in another thread if they were uniformed or not.....it appears they were undercover.

 

The headline in this thread is rather inaccurate!

 

The original report stated that the officers were plain-clothed, that is what all the fuss is about and why the girl tried to escape from them.

 

In an article about police abusing their positions and needing to be reined-in, the headline seems 100% appropriate

 

 

On what planet do the undercover policemen wear uniforms?

Are you suggesting they should have ran home and changed into their uniforms?

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by northernjohn

[DrLom]

 

Not a great headline,  does the authorreally not know how to deal with rogue cops or officials,  politicians for that matter ?

The solution lies with the government and the police themselves who must introduce a zero tolerance policy.

 

The discipline procedure is a joke and there's an almost total reluctance to dismiss errant officers.  Similarly the courts don't inspire confidence.

Over the years where cops appear in court in countries like Britain,  only used as an example,  the phrase ' you have abused the public trust ' is almost automatic and just about guarantees a stiffer sentence.

 

It's almost the exact opposite here.

This country (citizens and government) reeks of Codependent Personality D/O so much that it's beyond redemption; along with all the insecurity of "wanting to look good" i.e. face. There will be no change, and Thailand will fall further and further behind developed and developing countries. It's already near N. Korea and similar places in a few regards. Pity...it could be so so so much more.

 

And that comes from collectivism, as opposed to individualism - which exists only at the very top here. ;)

[northernjohn]

Same thing happened in the U.S. recently. Plain clothes tobacco and alcohol officials surronded a car of university students they thought had bought alcohol with a false I.D. Turns out it was mineral water. Nevertheless they arrested the girls on trumped up charges. After news and the bad press got out, the girls were released and, after suing, settled for several hundred thousand dollars. There has to be a way to  recognize overzealous cops and make sure they get proper training before being released on an unsuspecting public.

 

Not even close to the same thing. their was no arrest under false charges.

Their was no trumped up charges.

The cops were not rogue cops. They were doing their duty and made a mistake and admitted it rather than trumping up false charges. Now if they had trumped up false charges they would be considered rouge cops.

 

Besides that your story sounds stupid.

Plain clothes tobacco and alcohol officials

 

 

Watching university students. I think they have better things to do than that.

There has to be a way to  recognize overzealous

 

posters

[glasswort]

The majority of cars in Thailand have window film of varying percentages which restrict inward visibility. Identifying the occupants of  cars with windows treated in this way can vary from difficult to impossible. I am not saying that the mistaken identity referred to in this particular case is due to window film. It could have been a contributory factor but it does not justify the actions of the policeman. I believe that the application of car window film is actually illegal in Thailand, but I stand to be corrected on this. If it is illegal then enforce the law and cases of mistaken identity will be greatly reduced.

[laocowboy2]

 

Drug dealers must be eliminated from Thai society in what ever way possible. They don't love the country hence cannot be called Thai people.

:blink:

 

 

One "what ever way possible' would be to surround the district in which they are thought to live and 'Do a Gaza'. However perhaps not a good idea. Maybe better to wait until they take a Nok Air flight and roll out the Buk battery? Or perhaps after all, revert to normal and responsible policing - worth a try?

[gconeyman]

So the last commentator feels that killing drug dealers is like killing cockroaches.  just start spraying the area because there MAYBE a cockroach there.   trouble is people are NOT cockroaches.  if the police want to assassinate a wanted drug dealer they should at the very least properly ID the target.   IDing someone by the clothes they wear or the model car they drive is simply NOT good enough, hence this young law student almost paid with her life simply because the police dont pay enough attention to detail.    for one thing it doesnt stand up to the moral test of an enlightened response by law enforcement.     once the police feel they have a free hand to kill w.o a proper ID the door swings wide open for the most horrendous abuses of power.  the police are just agents of the law, they themselves are not the law.   this opens the door for otherwise innocent people to be targeted and go missing for ANY reason under the sun.  unfortunately this is true everywhere with law enforcement officials not just Thailand.   i went to Thailand 3 times and i found the police to be unprofessional in their attentions to important details.  they simply presume too much and are often too corrupt to carry out the law as its intended.   police departments everywhere need constant monitoring and should take tests yearly to improve their performances in the field.

[cacruden]

What Thailand needs is to have a bunch of checks and balances within the police force itself (I don't know the existing structure).  All parties have accepted that corruption is part of the fabric and the police salaries are lower than they should be -- and pay for things that should be government/police equipment.  They should have two police forces - the regular force and what would be equivalent to "internal investigation" (but setup as a separate force altogether).  This second force should be very highly paid and draw on only the best of the best with a good record - the salaries should reflect that they should have something major to lose if they ever violate their oaths of office (including losing all property / pensions etc.).  A third committee (civilian oversight) should be setup and draw on non-police with expertise in policing.  Any complaint of a police officer should be sent to both the "internal affairs" and civilian oversight - and only agreement between all parties can close an investigation that is ongoing.  All existing police officers should have to go through retraining and the government should bring in police trainers from forces that have good reputations to help (i.e. Singapore/HK and whoever else they can get).  The police will need to be retrained since their prior focus was a criminal pyramid screen and not policing itself.

[scorecard]

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Simple. Do what other countries do that follow democartic principles. Prosecute them, trial them, where found guilty imprison them.

But this is Thailand where there are different rules for everyone, where everything is for sale, where the rich, politicians and police are above the law, where the courts are brought or threatened, where the law is a joke, where patronage over rules all, where there is no equality, where corruption knows no bounds...add ad nausem

 

In this case there should also be serious investigation of the immediate and higher superiors of this rogue cops gang.

 

If their superiors did know they were operating in this manner why were they not stopped perhaps even punished / demoted / dismissed before this. And if the superiors did know but didn't act then the superiors should be seriously punished - dismissed.

 

If their superiors didn't know then they have failed in the management responsibility, and proven they are either incapable or focused on other things. In either case they (the superiors) should be removed. 

 

I hope we will see more military monitoring and military supervision of the police to force needed changes. 

[gwynt]

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Not a great headline,  does the authorreally not know how to deal with rogue cops or officials,  politicians for that matter ?

The solution lies with the government and the police themselves who must introduce a zero tolerance policy.

 

The discipline procedure is a joke and there's an almost total reluctance to dismiss errant officers.  Similarly the courts don't inspire confidence.

Over the years where cops appear in court in countries like Britain,  only used as an example,  the phrase ' you have abused the public trust ' is almost automatic and just about guarantees a stiffer sentence.

 

It's almost the exact opposite here.

 

 

Unfortunately in Thailand the police believe they are the law, not that they are employed to uphold the law, and believe they are above reproach.

[The Deerhunter]

Someone  said it all on another thread yesterday.  Sack them all.  Raise the pay rates & make them re-apply for their jobs.  If they are successful, then allow the employment to be considered continuous.  And have a non-corrupt, ruthless, Internal affairs monitoring branch. (I don't know how to do that.)   And get stooges to drive up & down the highways & byways with hidden cameras 7 mikes.  Starting on Rama nine, straight after the second set of toll boothes. (I do know how to do that.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)    Oh and change the law so that any traffic fine is given in writing and you have 7 or 14 days to pay it at any police station.  Police on traffic stops NOT allowed to take any money ever!!!!!!!!!!!!  Instant dismissal.

Edited August 7, 2014 by The Deerhunter

[Prbkk]

How about adopting a zero tolerance policy.  One strike and your out, fired and even face criminal charges.  The largest department in the Victoria Police (Aust) is ESD Ethical Standards Department.  You can't even fart without being investigated as to why you felt the need.

agree, but they have to be paid a living wage. A major source of corruption in many sectors of Thai society is that wages are at subsistence levels or below. Pay people a reasonable wage and their need to supplement through corruption is lessened.

[Mmorris]

You have to take 99% of Suriya4's comments with a "grain of salt".  I've read nearly all of his comments on various posts and have come to the conclusion that he's a hard core, royal elitist who lives in an alternative universe where Bangkok IS Thailand, and all other areas, and people, are to be used by the the rich in BKK for their own personal whims and desires.

 

But he's usually good for a laugh.

 

 

your "assessment" of the poster is the biggest laugh.... :D :lol:

[scorecard]

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How about adopting a zero tolerance policy.  One strike and your out, fired and even face criminal charges.  The largest department in the Victoria Police (Aust) is ESD Ethical Standards Department.  You can't even fart without being investigated as to why you felt the need.

agree, but they have to be paid a living wage. A major source of corruption in many sectors of Thai society is that wages are at subsistence levels or below. Pay people a reasonable wage and their need to supplement through corruption is lessened.

 

 

agree, how true, but now there is another challenge, to wean people off the 'extra', and even perhaps more to the point, if the 'extra' has been used for some time to fund better education or similar for the kids, then unless the lift in wages cover these items, then the 'extra' from corruption will stay.

 

The reality is of course that Thailand (and many other countries), must work hard to massively reduce corruption and it will be a hard and bumpy road, very probably needing more attention to policies which 'share the wealth'' (to some extend lacking currently in Thailand), and more.

 

Edited August 7, 2014 by scorecard

[samran]

How about adopting a zero tolerance policy.  One strike and your out, fired and even face criminal charges.  The largest department in the Victoria Police (Aust) is ESD Ethical Standards Department.  You can't even fart without being investigated as to why you felt the need.

Granted, but it still seems the force is a bit of a closed shop even in the west. I get why it is, that you really want your members to protect you when you are going into a volatile situation and this flows over into other areas.

For me it is a tough one. Easy to say, but when corruption and inappropriate action is still being exposed in the west, I wonder just how huge a task it must be for Thailand. I don't have an answer but am trying to grasp the true enormity of the task.

[rickirs]

The undercover officers mistake began when they failed to confirm the occupant of the car as their suspect. In fact there was no mention of a description of the suspect, could the true suspect had been male? Police mentioned that at "any given time there will likely be vehicles of similar model and colour on the road." True but every vehicle should have a unique license plate that would distinguish ownership - there is no mention of doing a license plate check. 

 

Building further on another mistake was lack of any fundamental foresignt to plan the take down: 1) box the vehicle in from flight or from potentially becoming a weapon, 2) secure safe positions from possible gunfire, 3) identify themselves as police officers, and 4) call for the supposed suspect to exit the vehicle. The lack of these procedures and other procedures reflects a systematic lack of training and understanding of the appropriate use of force. Thus, taken in the larger context, these officers wouldn't be "rogue" in the sense that they were acting beyond their authority. They were doing the best that they know how ...which was almost nonexistent knowledge. The whole police chain of command needs to carry as much as the fault of the involved officers.  
 

[Local Drunk]

It doesn't happen to begin with...

[chooka]

 

How about adopting a zero tolerance policy.  One strike and your out, fired and even face criminal charges.  The largest department in the Victoria Police (Aust) is ESD Ethical Standards Department.  You can't even fart without being investigated as to why you felt the need.

Granted, but it still seems the force is a bit of a closed shop even in the west. I get why it is, that you really want your members to protect you when you are going into a volatile situation and this flows over into other areas.

For me it is a tough one. Easy to say, but when corruption and inappropriate action is still being exposed in the west, I wonder just how huge a task it must be for Thailand. I don't have an answer but am trying to grasp the true enormity of the task.

 

In the Victoria Police, Australia you have absolutely no trust what so ever in the person sitting beside you in the car.  It is always front and centre is this person going to take the crooks side or your side so when you go to a situation it is always you take the lead, no you take the lead, no I want you to take the lead, no you do it.  Absolutely no trust or confidence in each other.  It is always if I take the lead you may report me for something you didn't agree with, it like who gives a hoot let the crook do as they please and as a copper I'm safe.  Hey my partner didn't do anything and I didn't do anything so we can't report each other.

[samran]

 

How about adopting a zero tolerance policy.  One strike and your out, fired and even face criminal charges.  The largest department in the Victoria Police (Aust) is ESD Ethical Standards Department.  You can't even fart without being investigated as to why you felt the need.

Granted, but it still seems the force is a bit of a closed shop even in the west. I get why it is, that you really want your members to protect you when you are going into a volatile situation and this flows over into other areas.

For me it is a tough one. Easy to say, but when corruption and inappropriate action is still being exposed in the west, I wonder just how huge a task it must be for Thailand. I don't have an answer but am trying to grasp the true enormity of the task.
 

In the Victoria Police, Australia you have absolutely no trust what so ever in the person sitting beside you in the car.  It is always front and centre is this person going to take the crooks side or your side so when you go to a situation it is always you take the lead, no you take the lead, no I want you to take the lead, no you do it.  Absolutely no trust or confidence in each other.  It is always if I take the lead you may report me for something you didn't agree with, it like who gives a hoot let the crook do as they please and as a copper I'm safe.  Hey my partner didn't do anything and I didn't do anything so we can't report each other.

You have just depressed me even more.

[Just1Voice]

 

You have to take 99% of Suriya4's comments with a "grain of salt".  I've read nearly all of his comments on various posts and have come to the conclusion that he's a hard core, royal elitist who lives in an alternative universe where Bangkok IS Thailand, and all other areas, and people, are to be used by the the rich in BKK for their own personal whims and desires.

 

But he's usually good for a laugh.

 

 

your "assessment" of the poster is the biggest laugh....

 

 

Apparently with your overwhelming 29 posts, YOU haven't read very many, and in fact, probably damn few, of Suriya4's comments, so you have nothing, zero, zip, zilch, to base your comments on.  Get an "education"  before you try to "teach".