I Am Not Evil

[jdinasia]

Cool! .... Let's just rush out to get an election <while we still don't know what parties will be disbanded ... what people will be barred from participating etc!

I am curious .... does anyone have a running total of lawsuits brought by Thaksin against opponents, activists, the free press etc?

[Plus]

Maybe Thaksin't lawers rented an office at DSI to save time and gasoline, too - they can lodge their daily lawsuits without leaving the building.

Cheaper diesel of farmers is not such a bad idea. Fishermen in the South got cheap diesel for their boats, why not farmers? It won't matter much overall but farmers will clearly benefit right away. High fuel prices have direct impact only on few groups of people. Truck drivers who work for large companies are not affected themselves, for example, but fishermen have to pay for diesel from their own pockets.

[Old Man River]

Cool! .... Let's just rush out to get an election <while we still don't know what parties will be disbanded ... what people will be barred from participating etc!

I am curious .... does anyone have a running total of lawsuits brought by Thaksin against opponents, activists, the free press etc?

I am not advocating to rush out and hold an election, besides, it will be subject to Royal Endorsement. However, right now the country is like a boat that is taking on too much water. It is not heading in any direction and there are danger signs. In the past, investors came to Thailand due to its relative stability. The sooner this again becomes the norm, the better for all concerned.

[jdinasia]

actually .... keeping the price of truck/tractor and marine diesel lower is not a bad idea. Keeps inflationary factors a little more in check ... presupposing tht the gov't can afford it.

Anything that gets trucked around ... and farm equipment and food .. all get affected by rising fuel costs.

Would have been easier to do before selling petroleum companies ... but hey ....

[Old Man River]

Maybe Thaksin't lawers rented an office at DSI to save time and gasoline, too - they can lodge their daily lawsuits without leaving the building.

Cheaper diesel of farmers is not such a bad idea. Fishermen in the South got cheap diesel for their boats, why not farmers? It won't matter much overall but farmers will clearly benefit right away. High fuel prices have direct impact only on few groups of people. Truck drivers who work for large companies are not affected themselves, for example, but fishermen have to pay for diesel from their own pockets.

Plus, oil subsidies has been discussed in the past. The bottom line is somebody has to pay for it. It is easy to say the government should, and they have, but eventually they have to stop or pass the cost on to the taxpayer. The Democrates know this full well, and the fact that they bring this up shows, as Martin has pointed out, that they are getting desperate.

[chownah]

Does subsidizing the fuel prices for certain industries take Thailand farther away from a free trade agreement or make a problem with wto membership?

[Old Man River]

Does subsidizing the fuel prices for certain industries take Thailand farther away from a free trade agreement or make a problem with wto membership?

Good question. I can't say for sure. Thailand, in general, subsidized the diesel price for well over a year and stopped only a few months ago, but that didn't target one group over another. I highly doubt it would ever come up in an FTA, which are bilateral agreements and are therefore concerned with trading with each other as opposed to competing against each other on world markets. However, it does sound like it would be an issue for the WTO, which is directly concerned with government subsidies and trying to level the playing field.

[hammered]

The Chart Thai Party suspects the government is looking to gain political advantage through a gathering of grassroots administrators

The Chart Thai Party has suspected that the government has “hidden political agenda” in calling a two-day gathering of executives of local administration organizations.

Chart Thai Deputy Leader Somsak Prissana-nanthakul (สมศักดิ์ ปริศนานันทกุล) said the government claimed the gathering at Wat Dhramakaya (ธรรมกาย), which begins today, was part of the celebrations of the auspicious year this year. Mr. Somsak, however, said he looked at all schedules and suspected the government might brief its policies to those grassroots executives.

He said the government may be looking for ways to be at an advantage position in the general election, tentatively set on October 15th.

Mr. Somsak said the gathering, which ends tomorrow, is a waste of the budget given the traveling expenses of those executives. He said the gathering can be held separately in each region or via video conferences to save state budget.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 17 July 2006

What an amazing venue for this gathering. Couldnt theyhave found somewhere less controversial? Or maybe on second thoughts it is quite fitting.

[hammered]

PAD is borrowing an old trick here:

"Democrat deputy leader Witthaya Kaewparadai (วิทยา แก้วภราไดย) said farmers now have to buy diesel oil at 30 baht per litre......... He said the government should show its sincerity to grassroots people by selling diesel oil to them at low prices so they can cut their production costs."

Castigate the Government for not doing something that would be very popular, if it were possible, though it is actually totally impracticable.

(There is a lower-taxed diesel for farmers in the UK, coloured red, but it is only kept to the farms by virtue of draconian penalties for mis-use in other vehicles, policed by properly-salaried officials who won't let off the captured transgressor for a 'backhander'. A totally different situation from Thailand, where the majority of vehicles would soon be running on 'agricultural diesel'!!)

But the only politicians who can use this trick are those who know they won't beat the Government, get power, and then have the goody (which they wouldn't dare to deliver) demanded of them.

So the Democrats are revealing that they know they are not going to be leading the next Government.

At least, they are realistic.

That is exactly what is happening. The Demo's are now grasping at straws. They are now making outlandish proposals that they, themselves, would never do. Now that the opposition is coming to this, it is better that we have the election quickly and get the country back on track.

I have a bad feeling that the election will end up being later rather than sooner.

I also think the Dems have always known they would not be in power after the next election (or two). I dont think the struggle going on is really about the Democrats and they know it. In fact Democrats I know dont expect to be in power for a while although they see a small oportunity here to win a few points.

[Siripon]

Ok here is a challenge and a bit of a game at it. The highest score gets to go out and buy dinner for themselves.

One point:

Name something Thaksin did that was self serving.

Two points:

Name something Thaksin did that served himself and Thailand.

Three points:

Name something Thaksin did that served Thailand and not himself.

The score will depend on whom you ask. Many (perhaps most) Thais still laud him, and would give him more points in your last category than to either of the first two. Regardless, with the backing of the army (Class 10 power now exceeding Class 5 and successors), the business community and the bureaucracy, Thaksin's not going anywhere.

I'm not sure the bureaucracy back him, granted he's put his relatives and trusted supporters in positions of power but a lot of civil servants are disgruntled by his interference and bullying.

Are you sure the business community still back him? The index went up when he claimed he would take a break; the longer the stalemate goes on the more he is seen as the problem, not the solution.

Can there ever be peace and stability whilst he is around? A leader must be able to unite but Thaksin plainly lacks that quality, inded he riles and goads any dissenting voices.

I agree with you about the military, Thaksin would not have dared challenge Prem if he was not sure he had most on his side, but then again he didn't dare go to Germany for the World Cup final.

[Martin]

'Siripon', in post #220, said:

"A leader must be able to unite but Thaksin plainly lacks that quality........."

But it is beyond human power to unite protagonists.

And the disjointedness of the body that is Thailand, at the moment, has produced this power struggle between the power groups.

It won't be till the protagonists can agree on a compromise, and so cease to be protagonists, that Thailand will be 'leadable'.

Behind the smokescreen of "PAD v. Thaksin", each power group is trying to ensure it is positioned not to be disadvantaged when that which we cannot mention occurs.

Fortunately, economic Thailand can trundle on, even though constitutional Thailand is in abeyance.

I think Thaksin is sensible enough not to try to do anything controversial during this caretaker-government period. That is the good side of having a PM withe the "CEO mindset", rather than a politician!!

'John k.' mentions the military in post #221.

I don't think Thaksin has it in mind to try to "use the military", so much as making sure that no other group are able to use the military against his power group.

I don't think this episode of the 'clashing of the tectonic plates of hierarchy and egalitarianism' will get nasty. It will run for a long time, but in the end will quieten (for a while) with the one semi-satisfied that it has not been over-ridden as much as it feared, and the other semi-satisfied to have made a bit of progress, though not as much as it hoped.

[Jai Dee]

A number of recent posts in this thread have been unapproved.

Please be reminded of the Forum Rules and the following in particular:

Discussion of topics concerning the King or other current or deceased members of the Thai Royal Family is forbidden.

Thanks for your understanding.

[Plus]

But it is beyond human power to unite protagonists.

And the disjointedness of the body that is Thailand, at the moment, has produced this power struggle between the power groups.

Thaksin can't possibly unite them because he is the protagonist himself. There's no "other" power group, there's Thaksin challenging the "old power". Remove Thaksin and struggle will end.

Yes, big business wants control over politics, but without Thaksin it will be "business as usual", subtle, inpereceptible, everyone gets what they want, no need to take over the country or challenge Prem.

Banharn refused to negotiate between parties for a reason.

[Martin]

Thaksin became "front man" for 'business power' and 'peasantry power' through his personal success and accumulated wealth and masterful analysis of the political situation.

Bureaucratic power clearly felt threatened by that, and welcome PAD crying "foul" over the Shin sale.

Fortunately, military power seems to be standing aside nowadays---presumably on the assurance from politicians and bureaucrats that it will be treated fairly, and does not have to involve itself nowadays in politics.

Thaksin will be wanting to make sure that he is not 'beaten' to the extent that the next government strips him of his personal fortune.

Equally, the bureaucrats (senior civil servants, judiciary etc) will be wanting to make sure that they don't end up in a situation where they can be pushed around willy-nilly by the politicians of the day.

It always happens that if one group gets what is felt to be disproportionate power, they will get 'their wings clipped'.

In 1979, in Britain, the electorate gave Margaret Thatcher the job of 'clipping the wings' of the organised-labour power group. She overdid it, and it has not even beeen able to flutter, never mind fly, for a quarter of a century. Business power (largely Chinese-Thai) in Thailand doesn't want something similar to happen to it. And neither does bureaucratic power.

So there is the need for a compromise to be worked out. And it would be best done through the Courts, so that it has the weight of law and order behind it to make it stick.

I wouldn't expect that they will be able to "get rid of Thaksin" until he feels that he'll be taking an acceptable voluntary-retirement package with him.

[Plus]

Thaksin isn't the "front man" for big business, he IS the biggest businessman in the country.

I don't think big business really wants to dominate the politics, they can always influence bureaucracy from the shadows, it's safer that way. If they need a front man in politics, they won't chose Thaksin but rather someone less conspicuous.

There's no "peasantry power" at all. Peasants are just pawns in the game of numbers, they don't have any political representation, no aspirations, no political demands. If Thaksin claims "poor man champion" title it doesn't mean he represents their interests, he just cleverly uses them to advance his own.

Thaksin has become a liability, he doesn't have any appeal to anyone with any power, he doesn't have any allies, only subordinates. One man against the system, fighting for the wrong cause (to protect his wealth). Fat chance he'll survive.

[Old Man River]

Thaksin isn't the "front man" for big business, he IS the biggest businessman in the country.

I don't think big business really wants to dominate the politics, they can always influence bureaucracy from the shadows, it's safer that way. If they need a front man in politics, they won't chose Thaksin but rather someone less conspicuous.

There's no "peasantry power" at all. Peasants are just pawns in the game of numbers, they don't have any political representation, no aspirations, no political demands. If Thaksin claims "poor man champion" title it doesn't mean he represents their interests, he just cleverly uses them to advance his own.

Thaksin has become a liability, he doesn't have any appeal to anyone with any power, he doesn't have any allies, only subordinates. One man against the system, fighting for the wrong cause (to protect his wealth). Fat chance he'll survive.

Dr. Thaksin controls the money and that is power. Corruption is a way of life in many countries, Thailand included. Dr. Thaksin controls who gets what and how much. If his people defect en masse, they will go to another power broker who can assure them the same. Within two years, it will either be pre-2001 business as usual or post-2001 business as usual.

[Plus]

No one controls Thaksin, that was my point, he himself is facing the "old power". His money and subordinates help, of course, but they are not allies, allies have left him.

Can anyone repeat Thaksin's rise to power? Not likely. Sometimes people ask who can be the PM if not Thaksin, now you tell us that he'll be easily replaced by equally corrupt figure.

We can't even find people with great political asprations, certainly not on the scale of Thaksin - revamp bureaucracy, establish firm one party rule and personality cult, challenge the unchallengeble. Thaksin did all that, and had more money than anyone else in the country, and a widest popular appeal.

[Jai Dee]

PM accuses urban people of failing to grasp democracy

Nearly 100,000 local administration officials and members of their families took part in a candlelight ceremony at Wat Dhammakaya in Pathum Thani last night to honor His Majesty the King and the Royal Family.

Despite calling for national reconciliation, caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra last night criticized the urban-based middle class for failing to comprehend democracy and reiterated calls for all sides to respect the rules of politics.

Thaksin also told nearly 100,000 local administration officials and their family members that rural Thailand would become the cradle of democracy and lead the way in bringing about harmony in the country.

Summoned by the Interior Ministry, Local Administration Organization staff from all 76 provinces began arriving at Wat Dhammakaya in Pathum Thani – just north of the capital – on Monday to take part in the assembly yesterday that the caretaker government said was being held to unify all faiths and to pledge allegiance to His Majesty the King.

The officials and their relatives, all wearing commemorative yellow shirts to mark the 60th anniversary of His Majesty’s accession to the throne, took part in various merit-making activities and listened to sermons by leaders of the country’s three main faiths – Buddhism, Christianity and Islam.

“I have never seen such a large assembly of people since I became prime minister six years ago,” Thaksin said in his address to the crowd last night.

“We are all here today because His Majesty is at the center of our hearts.”

After thanking religious leaders for their sermons, Thaksin spoke of divisions between the rural and urban populations. The prime minister accused city dwellers of failing to understand what democracy stood for, while applauding those who live in the countryside for respecting the rules of politics.

“People in the city see rural folk as stupid and uneducated, but there are fewer defaulters taking advantage of the village fund than there are defaulters in the city who have taken out bank loans,” he said. “This clearly proves that rural people know more about democracy and how to play by the rules than people in the city.”

Thaksin expressed optimism about the coming general election, and said it would give the public a chance to be heard.

“People know politicians well and on election day the people’s mandate will be heard,” he said. “If courts, politicians and legal minds in the country behave more maturely, the country will see progress.”

In apparent reference to criticism of the letter he sent to US President George W Bush, in which it was claimed he gave a one-sided account of why the April 2 general election was annulled, Thaksin said he hoped that Thai politics could be more like that in western countries, or in sports.

“I want to see politics more like sports because in sports the rules are respected no matter which side wins or loses,” he said. “It is not good to lose and then shout abuse at your opponents from the sidelines. It is this that has tainted politics in this country.”

“We must accept that there are rules and know how to lose gracefully and stop everything when the referee blows his whistle. In America or Italy no one complains, even if they lose an election by the smallest of margins.”

Thaksin pledged that he would soon get the political situation under control.

However, he said rural Thailand must nurture the seeds of democracy and spread a message of peace.

Thaksin added that he may soon transfer the management of the government’s SML fund to the control of local administrators and that children at elementary school in the provinces would soon have computers.

Before bringing the event to a close, Thaksin led the crowd in a candlelight ceremony to honor HM the King and the Royal Family.

Source: ThaiDay - 19 July 2006

[Old Man River]

No one controls Thaksin, that was my point, he himself is facing the "old power". His money and subordinates help, of course, but they are not allies, allies have left him.

Can anyone repeat Thaksin's rise to power? Not likely. Sometimes people ask who can be the PM if not Thaksin, now you tell us that he'll be easily replaced by equally corrupt figure.

We can't even find people with great political asprations, certainly not on the scale of Thaksin - revamp bureaucracy, establish firm one party rule and personality cult, challenge the unchallengeble. Thaksin did all that, and had more money than anyone else in the country, and a widest popular appeal.

Plus, we are agreeing. I am not saying he will be easily replaced by someone equally corrupt. I am saying he will be eventually replaced (I don't think his departure is imminent) by someone also corrupt. It is a way of life here. The only caveat to this is if he is replaced by someone outside the political arena (PC Gen. Prem for example). However, within time, say two years, it will be back to business as usual. I don't see anyone stepping up that can do the things you state above. The only way to put it all together is with money or promise of it. Hence, another power broker. I am also wondering what Barnharn has up his sleeve.

[John K]

Martin, How is all this flying with the locals in Isaan? It must be having some effect.

One of my friends compared Thailand democracy to a big cat trying to cough up a fur ball. Thaksin came in a lick at a time but just can’t be digested.

[Martin]

I haven't heard of any reaction to the big rally, John.

Here is what I put on the 'Thaksin-Bush letters' thread, after 'plus' said (quite rightly) that the Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class had caught Thaksin snatching power.

"....Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class...." are understandably teed off that a Northern upstart should get the NorthEasterners on his side, too, and push them away from the trough.

But they are not going to get any sympathy from 'ban nork'.

If anything, their squeals will just raise the thought that, if Thaksin is getting up their noses, Thaksin must be doing something right.

"...Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class..." are seen as the groups who have never done anything positive for 'ban nork', but have done a whole lot of negative.

Bangkok is the place that has monopolised the jobs, so village grandparents have to look after the grandchildren whilst the young folk work in the Bangkok factories for the money that keeps the family going.

It is also the place that sent a lot of them back with AIDS.

"....Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class ...." are the ones who make a cushy living out of paying low prices for the rice and sugarcane produced by 'ban nork' and selling it on at high prices.

"....Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class...." draw away any 'ban nork' youngsters who succeed in getting educated.

Then "...Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class...." sneer at those who remain in 'ban nork' as "poor and uneducated".

'Ban nork' has so little in common with Bangkok that the country (and, especially, its politics) are disjointed.

It will take a long time to build the ligaments and muscles that are needed at the joint.

And, so far, there has been no sign (other than 30-baht health consultations from Thaksin) that there is the political will to do that.

What is needed is things like distributing two thirds of the industry of Bangkok and the Eastern Seaboard to the provincial towns and cities.

Because 'ban nork' people are kindly, tolerant and pacifist, they have not taken issue with "....Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class...."

But they can't be expected to have any sympathy for squealing from "...Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class ....".

For myself, I am concerned that Thaksin has fuelled economic activity so much by making credit too easily available, and that he sold Shin to foreigners and avoided paying tax.

But those things don't weigh much in 'ban nork's' eyes.

In fact, this week I heard the simple view expressed that it is drug barons whose businesses were crippled by Thaksin who will be behind this trying to get rid of him.

And "....Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class...." shouldn't sneer at such a simplistic view going unchallenged. Take away all the brightest and best and there isn't anybody to do such challenging.

I sense that 'ban nork' thinks that "....Bangkokians, Southerners, country's elite, and middle class..." have got the PM they deserved, and will put him in again next time.

[aaaaaa]

Thaksin did all that, and had more money than anyone else in the country, and a widest popular appeal.

correction :

according to latest info, he is only a 4th rich in Thailand :

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=76311

[Plus]

I haven't read that thread yet, but at the height of his political power, three-four years ago, he was the richest Thai, and if they counted family holdings, his is the richest family clan still, I believe.

Maybe some big businessmen want to go into politics, but it's not their natural environment. When dust settles, maybe only Suriya will still be in politics, maybe not. Do you think that Charoen will lead a political party some day? Especially after what happened to Thaksin.

[aaaaaa]

I agree with you - normally biz-men prefer to "stay in the shadows".

I remember reading Autobiz magazine, one issue where there was a big article about present Minister of Auto (or is it transpot ? anyway...) who is younger bro of man who runs one of the biggest companies in Thailand selling auto parts. it was mentioned about that man that he always stayed in the shadows, hardly appeared in any media reports at all.

and in general in most or all countries in the world - politicians can easily be "bought" in- or directly by biz-men. why bother to go into politics and burden oneself with headaches which politic games bring? responsibility etc... better to pull the strings from a distance.

one thinker of last century said once : "Politics are the last shelter of rascals !"

[Sandstone Art]

Thaksin did all that, and had more money than anyone else in the country, and a widest popular appeal.

correction :

according to latest info, he is only a 4th rich in Thailand :

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=76311

Don't forget about the INFAMOUS 'hidden assets' tricks that our dear leader is capable of.

He can just easily be placed on top of everybody.

Personaly, I think that being placed 4th in the country is an understatement.

[John K]

Looking ahead to what it may take;

I think to avoid corruption from becoming the huge monster again as it is now, a few simple but brave laws must change.

Laws that weaken the ability to fight corruption should be placed in a special protected class. They can only be changed with consent of the King.

Some other laws like judges that are too close to the defense or prosecution (by relationship or favor) should automatically be disqualified. Failure to do so they would automatically lose their seat on the bench and the case would be declare a mistrial.

It sounds drastic but if they feel they can get away with it they will try. Only after a few hard lessons are learned will they change.

In a previous post some place I more or less mentioned the new democracy of Thailand must be kept on a short leash until is has properly learned not to stray off the path.

[aaaaaa]

Personaly, I think that being placed 4th in the country is an understatement.

I think you're right !

well, he must try to appear being somewhat humble while not entirely losing face.... perhaps he hides some of his assets !

[Martin]

Maybe it is worth looking up at the title of the topic.

I understand how Thaksin doesn't measure up to the highest standards that might be wished of a PM.

But it is surely an exaggeration to see him as evil. Venal is nearer the mark, I feel.

His transgressions are in such a minor league compared to Bush and Blair.

Surely we wouldn't use the same word to describe the character failings of a used car salesman and Genghis Khan, would we?

[Plus]

"We" didn't use the word, it's Thaksin himself speaking, remember. He makes an argument (on "our" behalf) and than defeats it himself.

I doubt what he says matters to kids living in LA, even if they are Thais.

[John K]

Plus brought up a bit of a memory I tried to forget about. Thaksin was making my choices for me and not the ones I would have selected. Going around like he was the only person who was smart and treating everyone like a unknowing child.