What Do You Think When You See A Western Man And A Thai Woman?

[kerryk]

Bear in mind that virtually all women have had first hand, often quite traumatic, experience of older men hitting on them when they were young -- and I mean YOUNG -- girls. It is not pleasant to say the least. And once grown, many of those women have daughters whom they wish to spare such experiences. When they see what may look like an older man with an underage girl, it pushes buttons.

Excellent point Sheryl. Something, I think, alot of men may not take into account.

One thing I feel the need to ask regarding kerryk's post, if it such an Asian thing to see a young woman with an older man then how come the only time you ever see such a thing (at least here) is a man with his mia noi? They take them as mistresses but rarely marry them.

And the dislike of Thai men must be a northern thing, or a city thing because where I live the majority of Thai girls and women marry Thai men and have no interest in Farangs.

I really don’t know if Thai men have younger wives or older wives or wives the same age. Most of the Thai couples I know are about the same age. I think the reason is the fact that divorce is less common in Thailand. If I read the statistics right it is about 12% of the divorce rate in the US or 1.28 couples per 1000 people as opposed to 4 or 5 in the US depending on which year is looked at. The reason for that INMHO is the family involvement in marriage. The marriage might have brought two families together for investment or other purposes and it would have wide spread consequences if it were dissolved. First marriages are more likely to have partners close to the same age because of the age of the male at marriage. There is also the safety valve of mia noi instead of divorce that is tolerated as a better alternative than divorce.

I don’t have enough information to give a definitive answer on why women here prefer Farang men and or Japanese men. It may just be supply and demand. There are no accurate population statistics for Chiang Mai province but I would estimate women greatly outnumber men because this is a university town. From my experience there are less sex tourists here and certainly fewer and in some cases outside of the city almost no naughty night life except for the Thai venues. Also the great majority of tourists are couples.

Having said that most of the non Thai males living here are working or retired and may come across as better partners than the men on holiday in the South. Plus there is a lot of domestic violence against women here. I can only imagine it is because many women come here to go to school and are away from their family support groups. Perhaps this leaves them more open and defenseless. I have not been able to find any reliable statistics on domestic violence in Thailand because it is treated as a family matter and not open to public scrutiny. But I think as a woman becomes more educated she is less likely to take any abuse from her spouse or SO.

I have observed a lot more violence toward women here than in the South but that may be because I have more Thai friends here and I have been part of a support net for them. The Thai women I talk to seem to think that Farang men are less abusive than Thai men or if they are abusive the authorities will take action and would not if it were a Thai man.

There are far more female university graduates here than male graduates and they may have different expectations in life than the average Thai male they meet and the number of registered marriages in this region has declined more than any other region in Thailand over the past ten years.

For my personal track record I fixed up three Farang guys with three Thai women at the insistence of my Thai lady.

Never again!

All three guys who I thought I knew turned out to be jerks in Thailand.

[lingyai]

I'm 46 with a 20 y/o gf. I am a firm believer in having a gf in their early 20s because at that age they are smokin' hot babes. I think all men should have chicks that age regardless of how old they are. It dont get no better than that

So do you have a daughter? Being 46 you could possibly have one nearing 18. If so please gives us her in info. There are a lot of 45, 55, 65+ guys we could set her up with....

Edited July 24, 2006 by lingyai

[sbk]

Its funny you say that lingyai because it reminds me of something my father always says.

He says that having daughters has ruined his girlwatching as he gets older because he looks at one and thinks "She's the same age as my daughter" or now as we are all getting older "She is the same age as my granddaughter".

I wonder if he is unusual then?

[kat]

I have been the recipient of many bad looks and comments in the States because my last wife was much younger than I. The main problem in our marriage was my work. I had to work far more than she deemed acceptable and could not spend the time with her that she thought was proper. One works a lot of hours in the restaurant business and she was not happy at all with the arrangement. For the rest, were very compatible.

In Thailand my lady is 37 and I am 60. She is not a young looking 37. She is very outgoing and we have many friends of all ages and social status. We don’t get any funny looks or snide comments.

A lot of our friends are Thai women who own their own businesses or are moderately well off.

It has been my experience in Thailand that women in their early 20’s are comfortable with a man to 35 years of age. Thai women in their 30’s comfortable with a man to 60 years of age. Thai women in their 40’s or 50’s told me age does not matter at all.

The reason I am aware of this is because I get asked a lot if I have any friends from America who would like to meet a Thai woman. I am constantly amazed by the amount of Thai women who don’t like Thai men. Not all certainly but a substantial amount. (For the doubters , no, these are not bar girls. Not even close to bar girls. They are not from Issan. They are just normal working women from Chiang Mai.)

I lived in the South of the US and don’t find the age patterns much different in Thailand than in Arkansas.

Seems to me that both men and women in their first marriage seem to pick partners close to the same age but in following marriages are more flexible. I would attribute this to a learning curve about relationships.

There are obviously a lot of relationships in Thailand which involve 20 year old women and 60 year old men both Thai and foreign. One can also see this in other parts of Asia and Thailand does not have a corner on the market.

I think I can speak for a majority of men 60 and over when I say this does not bother them (except perhaps envy). I think most of them also know that the chances of success for the relationship is small.

There are many precedents for this in Asian culture and religion, Taoism being an example. I have not lived in China for 30 years but I doubt if it has completely done an about face concerning young women and older men.

Perhaps some forget there are many belief systems in Asia that are deep seated and not on the surface but firmly ingrained in Asian culture. Hsuan wei Hshin (Mental Images of the Mysteries and Subtleties of Sexual Techniques') and San Feng Tan Cheueh (Zhang Sanfeng's Instructions in the Physiological Alchemy) just to qutoe a couple.

I doubt if many Thais would think it perversion to see a 60 year old man with a 20 year old woman. They may frown on it but perversion is a very strong word.

I am a member of a group of six men, 50 to 60 who work out together at a local gym and spa. Three Thais, one Japanese, one Italian and me. We are all in semi retired. With the exception of myself they all are involved with 20 year old women. I put this question to them and they all told me no one has a problem with their relationships.

I agree with a lot of your insights and perceptions of Asian culture. I think large age gaps are much more acceptable here, when it is in favor of the man. Older women here are largely viewed as an object to be discarded, whereas younger women are objects to use, buy, and sell.

From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need. I also have a problem with these same middle-aged and old men who date women and girls 20-30 years younger than themselves, and then rant and speak in derogatory ways about Western women. For me, these are largely the same people, and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think in its very essence it is misogynist, because it is a hatred of women except in the guise of a younger, more controllable form. It also doesn't exhibit much in the value of women as women, only as objects, trophies, and sexual things.

I also regularly attract boys and men half my age, and I don't even have to pay them. But, I draw the line at certain ages, because just because I can doesn't mean I should. However, men my age here look and think like my father. Why on earth should I be relegated to a certain status simply because of my age, by men who look and ARE far older than me?

THAT is the source of a lot of hostility - the attitudes of so many of these men in large age-gap relationships.

Edited July 24, 2006 by kat

[Sheryl]

From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need. I also have a problem with these same middle-aged and old men who date women and girls 20-30 years younger than themselves, and then rant and speak in derogatory ways about Western women. For me, these are largely the same people, and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think in its very essence it is misogynist, because it is a hatred of women except in the guise of a younger, more controllable form. It also doesn't exhibit much in the value of women as women, only as objects, trophies, and sexual things.

This is turning into quite an interesting thread.

I agree with you Kat -- only I would revise "female need" to "vulnerability of economically diasadvantaged third world women".

There is also the fact that many of these guys, although they may be 30 years older, are still emotionally adolescent so the thing that would most naturally prevent such a relationship -- a huge gap in emotional maturity -- doesn't really apply. In fact women their own age would be unlikely to put up with them.

[kat]

Maybe for some Sheryl, but I don't think all. I think some of them are emotionally and intellectually mature, but they just don't care. They don't value women as women, only as objects and as a means to gratify their sexual egos. That's why it is so easy for them to pay for relationships and arrangements in which they have very little commong ground.

I think they either had those values to begin with, or they allowed the worst elements of male behavior and vanity to flourish in an atmosphere conducive to such attitudes.

[Beavis and Butthead]

I'm 46 with a 20 y/o gf. I am a firm believer in having a gf in their early 20s because at that age they are smokin' hot babes. I think all men should have chicks that age regardless of how old they are. It dont get no better than that

So do you have a daughter? Being 46 you could possibly have one nearing 18. If so please gives us her in info. There are a lot of 45, 55, 65+ guys we could set her up with....

Nope, don't have a daughter, have an 18 y/o son; never had any sisters either. was married twice to western women: 1st was my age from age 25-31, the next was 10 years my senior. Have absolutely nothing negative to say about either other than the 2nd was a nag. I'd probably still be married to the 1st if it were not for her deep rooted emotional problems and insistence on divorce. The 2nd was just too unjustifiably jealous and too much of a nag for me to continue with. After the 2nd marriage I started traveling and came here, met my gf and rest is history. I have nothing negative to say about western women, I rather much like them quite a lot

[thohts]

Well I do think the age difference, and not the nationality difference, is what draws hostile looks. And it is indeed because of all the hype (and let's face it, truth behind the hype) around sex tiourism in Thailand.

Fact is, a lot of Thais look -- especially to a foreign eye that hasn't been long in country -- much younger than they are. If on top of that the man looks older than he is -- and a lot of western guys do seem to let their looks go when they get here -- people may very well be mistaking the 30 something + a 20 something as an over 40 with a teenager. Which as the above poster indicated, draws nasty looks no matter what the races/nationalities invovled. In some places, it draws a jail sentence.

What to do? You could (for the guy) try to look a little younger..or ask her to dress a little older. Or -- ignore it altogether. People who know you will know your real story.

True, true.. Like I said.. A *lot* of Thai people (and I'm sure a lot of foreigners, too) think my girlfriend is 18-20 when in fact she is approaching 30.

That "pervert" may be enjoying a day out with his daughter (or step-daughter, or son; or friend - hey, there's a concept!) so let's be careful in our assumptions.

[Thai-Aust]

I'm 46 with a 20 y/o gf. I am a firm believer in having a gf in their early 20s because at that age they are smokin' hot babes. I think all men should have chicks that age regardless of how old they are. It dont get no better than that

So do you have a daughter? Being 46 you could possibly have one nearing 18. If so please gives us her in info. There are a lot of 45, 55, 65+ guys we could set her up with....

Nope, don't have a daughter, have an 18 y/o son; never had any sisters either. was married twice to western women: 1st was my age from age 25-31, the next was 10 years my senior. Have absolutely nothing negative to say about either other than the 2nd was a nag. I'd probably still be married to the 1st if it were not for her deep rooted emotional problems and insistence on divorce. The 2nd was just too unjustifiably jealous and too much of a nag for me to continue with. After the 2nd marriage I started traveling and came here, met my gf and rest is history. I have nothing negative to say about western women, I rather much like them quite a lot

He doesn't get it.

[thohts]

I really don’t know if Thai men have younger wives or older wives or wives the same age. Most of the Thai couples I know are about the same age. I think the reason is the fact that divorce is less common in Thailand. If I read the statistics right it is about 12% of the divorce rate in the US or 1.28 couples per 1000 people as opposed to 4 or 5 in the US depending on which year is looked at. The reason for that INMHO is the family involvement in marriage. The marriage might have brought two families together for investment or other purposes and it would have wide spread consequences if it were dissolved. First marriages are more likely to have partners close to the same age because of the age of the male at marriage. There is also the safety valve of mia noi instead of divorce that is tolerated as a better alternative than divorce.

Off topic, but...

The divorce rate in the Philippines, for example, is probably near 0% because they don't believe in divorce. A divorced woman in the Philippines (and in other Asian cultures) is a social outcast. In highly patriarchial socieities (and very Catholic and Muslim ones), divorce is much less common than in more "progressive" socieities. I don't think this is because the married couples are happier. I think this is, basically, because the woman is more likely to put up with her husband's BS and not consider divorce as an option.

The divorce rate in Thailand is about 0.58 per 1000. In the US it's about 9x higher. (See divorcefoum)

What's also interesting is that the divorce rate for marriages from "mail-order bride"-type setups in the US is about half the national rate. Would this, too, be because of more family involvement?

Not drawing any conclusions here.. just being off topic and talking out of my rear a little.

Back to the show!

[rcalsop]

I really don’t know if Thai men have younger wives or older wives or wives the same age. Most of the Thai couples I know are about the same age. I think the reason is the fact that divorce is less common in Thailand. If I read the statistics right it is about 12% of the divorce rate in the US or 1.28 couples per 1000 people as opposed to 4 or 5 in the US depending on which year is looked at. The reason for that INMHO is the family involvement in marriage. The marriage might have brought two families together for investment or other purposes and it would have wide spread consequences if it were dissolved. First marriages are more likely to have partners close to the same age because of the age of the male at marriage. There is also the safety valve of mia noi instead of divorce that is tolerated as a better alternative than divorce.

Off topic, but...

The divorce rate in the Philippines, for example, is probably near 0% because they don't believe in divorce. A divorced woman in the Philippines (and in other Asian cultures) is a social outcast. In highly patriarchial socieities (and very Catholic and Muslim ones), divorce is much less common than in more "progressive" socieities. I don't think this is because the married couples are happier. I think this is, basically, because the woman is more likely to put up with her husband's BS and not consider divorce as an option.

The divorce rate in Thailand is about 0.58 per 1000. In the US it's about 9x higher. (See divorcefoum)

What's also interesting is that the divorce rate for marriages from "mail-order bride"-type setups in the US is about half the national rate. Would this, too, be because of more family involvement?

Not drawing any conclusions here.. just being off topic and talking out of my rear a little.

Back to the show!

Is the divorce rate lower here because of the fact there are other options ...more freely available sex and certainly a very high percentage of married couple with Mia Noi type arrangements where I line over 30% of the houses are occupied by mia noi owners !! and all perfectly accepted as are their kids every one knows but no stigma attached at all

[somchai jones]

What do you think when you see a Western man and a Thai woman?

That was the question and a prefix to any answer would have to be, 'It depends on the couple'.

A slightly different perspective perhaps, but if that couple are both of a similar age and good looking, one answer might be that you think they look pretty dam* sexy together!

A well muscled western guy, a well toned Thai woman with flowing silky locks. Wonderful!

Edited July 26, 2006 by somchai jones

[kerryk]

I have been the recipient of many bad looks and comments in the States because my last wife was much younger than I. The main problem in our marriage was my work. I had to work far more than she deemed acceptable and could not spend the time with her that she thought was proper. One works a lot of hours in the restaurant business and she was not happy at all with the arrangement. For the rest, were very compatible.

In Thailand my lady is 37 and I am 60. She is not a young looking 37. She is very outgoing and we have many friends of all ages and social status. We don’t get any funny looks or snide comments.

A lot of our friends are Thai women who own their own businesses or are moderately well off.

It has been my experience in Thailand that women in their early 20’s are comfortable with a man to 35 years of age. Thai women in their 30’s comfortable with a man to 60 years of age. Thai women in their 40’s or 50’s told me age does not matter at all.

The reason I am aware of this is because I get asked a lot if I have any friends from America who would like to meet a Thai woman. I am constantly amazed by the amount of Thai women who don’t like Thai men. Not all certainly but a substantial amount. (For the doubters , no, these are not bar girls. Not even close to bar girls. They are not from Issan. They are just normal working women from Chiang Mai.)

I lived in the South of the US and don’t find the age patterns much different in Thailand than in Arkansas.

Seems to me that both men and women in their first marriage seem to pick partners close to the same age but in following marriages are more flexible. I would attribute this to a learning curve about relationships.

There are obviously a lot of relationships in Thailand which involve 20 year old women and 60 year old men both Thai and foreign. One can also see this in other parts of Asia and Thailand does not have a corner on the market.

I think I can speak for a majority of men 60 and over when I say this does not bother them (except perhaps envy). I think most of them also know that the chances of success for the relationship is small.

There are many precedents for this in Asian culture and religion, Taoism being an example. I have not lived in China for 30 years but I doubt if it has completely done an about face concerning young women and older men.

Perhaps some forget there are many belief systems in Asia that are deep seated and not on the surface but firmly ingrained in Asian culture. Hsuan wei Hshin (Mental Images of the Mysteries and Subtleties of Sexual Techniques') and San Feng Tan Cheueh (Zhang Sanfeng's Instructions in the Physiological Alchemy) just to qutoe a couple.

I doubt if many Thais would think it perversion to see a 60 year old man with a 20 year old woman. They may frown on it but perversion is a very strong word.

I am a member of a group of six men, 50 to 60 who work out together at a local gym and spa. Three Thais, one Japanese, one Italian and me. We are all in semi retired. With the exception of myself they all are involved with 20 year old women. I put this question to them and they all told me no one has a problem with their relationships.

I agree with a lot of your insights and perceptions of Asian culture. I think large age gaps are much more acceptable here, when it is in favor of the man. Older women here are largely viewed as an object to be discarded, whereas younger women are objects to use, buy, and sell.

From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need. I also have a problem with these same middle-aged and old men who date women and girls 20-30 years younger than themselves, and then rant and speak in derogatory ways about Western women. For me, these are largely the same people, and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think in its very essence it is misogynist, because it is a hatred of women except in the guise of a younger, more controllable form. It also doesn't exhibit much in the value of women as women, only as objects, trophies, and sexual things.

I also regularly attract boys and men half my age, and I don't even have to pay them. But, I draw the line at certain ages, because just because I can doesn't mean I should. However, men my age here look and think like my father. Why on earth should I be relegated to a certain status simply because of my age, by men who look and ARE far older than me?

THAT is the source of a lot of hostility - the attitudes of so many of these men in large age-gap relationships.

I would disagree with your statement that older Thai women are to be discarded. What I see is that they change roles around 45 to 55. The role becomes more spiritual and home oriented rather than the fun loving sanuk sanuk woman of 35. It may of course just be me but all of the older Thai women that I know are respected members of their families and still make most of the important decisions. I also know one Thai lady of 60 who has a 45 year old Farang husband. They have a beautiful home and a large ginger farm that she works daily.

I know a lot of men here who bash Western women. Some with reason and some to justify their existence here.

For business reasons I have been spending a lot of time recently in an entertainment venue that caters almost exclusively to Western women and Western couples mostly in their 20’s. I must admit it has reinforced many negative stereotypes in my mind.

The Western women I know who are single and living in the West are in some kind of fairy tale state.

Let me describe a couple of them. Barbara is a wealthy 60 year old retired lady who was a Clinical Psychologist for 30 years and married to a dentist who divorced her. She was in an auto accident and could not walk well for a year and gained 30 on a very small frame which she makes no attempt to remove. She says she has reached the point in her life that she wants another husband. She has kept me abreast of her husband finding attempts for the past five years. She wants a Brad Pitt who does not smoke or drink is great in bed and is wealthy.

Mary is a 50 year old woman (business owner) who only had one man in her entire life (her husband) until she got into internet dating. She divorced him and has slept with 80 different men in the last 5 years and cannot figure out why none of them has asked her to marry. She is also 60 pounds overweight.

I love them both dearly as they have been life long friends but they are delusional.

My ex Western wife who was 5’ 2” gained 65 pounds the first year of our marriage, cut off all of her hair, started drinking heavily and asked me why I did not want to have sex more often.

I have had numerous bad experiences with Western women and no bad experiences with Thai women. I am sure I am not alone in that fact.

I think you may be interpreting misogyny as something it is not.

It is not just Western women but Western society that has changed in a manner I find very disturbing. I think some women may see this as misogyny. Traditional roles of men and women in the West have changed and I don’t like it.

In Thailand traditional roles are changing but they have not changed yet. The society I was used to in the West when I was growing up and impressionable is pretty much the society I find in Thailand except the language is different.

I pretty much agree with your statement below.

“From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need.” I would add that most marriage/relationships in Thailand are also based on male sexuality and female need.

30 year age gaps although not the norm are accepted in the West among the rich, famous and powerful.

In Thailand rich, famous and powerful may include a lot of Farangs who would not have that status in the West.

It is easier for a older Western man in Thailand to have a relationship with a young Thai woman because the young Thai woman has more in common with the old Western man than Farang young woman would have.

A lot of Thai women are raised with three generations in the home and feel at ease with the older generation. Music, food, entertainment are not as segregated by age here as in the West.

I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West.

[lingyai]

I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West.

What exactly about young western women's behavior upsets you?

[sbk]

Well, this is just another western women have too high of expectations rant as far as I am concerned. Another old boys want it all blah blah blah that isnt' relevant to the thread.

I will not tolerate a blow by blow dissection of everything that is wrong with western women in this forum.

Back to the topic at hand, which, frankly seems to have been taken over by farang men assuming what farang women think or discussing how wonderful their relationships are with Thai women etc. None of which really has much to do with what western women think when they see a Thai woman with a farang man. Seems to me most of the women have already answered that question and most of them men just can't accept that the women don't hate them or aren't jealous of the skinny Thai women.

Enough of this or the thread will be closed.

[Thaipwriter]

Never had one single farang girl or woman look at me and any GF badly.

It's only Thai's that stop and gawp.

Fact is, if I could find a farang woman for a GF here in Thailand i would jump at the chance. Fingers crossed

[thohts]

Fact is, if I could find a farang woman for a GF here in Thailand i would jump at the chance. Fingers crossed

There are at least a few men like us who would have preferred to become involved with a Western woman while stationed in Thailand but, unfortunately, were not able to meet any who wanted to meet single farang men (who are all, naturally, here for sex with Thai women, or so some believe - it's guilty until proven innocent, and even that's not possible).

I've been asked "what - you couldn't find love back home?" one too many times.

[Axel]

I've been asked "what - you couldn't find love back home?" one too many times.

Gave me a good laugh. This sentence is something you cannot invent, you must have heard it.

[Thaipwriter]

I've been asked "what - you couldn't find love back home?" one too many times.

Gave me a good laugh. This sentence is something you cannot invent, you must have heard it.

Not had that said to me yet, dental insurance might be a good idea for anyone considering using this line

[kat]

I have been the recipient of many bad looks and comments in the States because my last wife was much younger than I. The main problem in our marriage was my work. I had to work far more than she deemed acceptable and could not spend the time with her that she thought was proper. One works a lot of hours in the restaurant business and she was not happy at all with the arrangement. For the rest, were very compatible.

In Thailand my lady is 37 and I am 60. She is not a young looking 37. She is very outgoing and we have many friends of all ages and social status. We don’t get any funny looks or snide comments.

A lot of our friends are Thai women who own their own businesses or are moderately well off.

It has been my experience in Thailand that women in their early 20’s are comfortable with a man to 35 years of age. Thai women in their 30’s comfortable with a man to 60 years of age. Thai women in their 40’s or 50’s told me age does not matter at all.

The reason I am aware of this is because I get asked a lot if I have any friends from America who would like to meet a Thai woman. I am constantly amazed by the amount of Thai women who don’t like Thai men. Not all certainly but a substantial amount. (For the doubters , no, these are not bar girls. Not even close to bar girls. They are not from Issan. They are just normal working women from Chiang Mai.)

I lived in the South of the US and don’t find the age patterns much different in Thailand than in Arkansas.

Seems to me that both men and women in their first marriage seem to pick partners close to the same age but in following marriages are more flexible. I would attribute this to a learning curve about relationships.

There are obviously a lot of relationships in Thailand which involve 20 year old women and 60 year old men both Thai and foreign. One can also see this in other parts of Asia and Thailand does not have a corner on the market.

I think I can speak for a majority of men 60 and over when I say this does not bother them (except perhaps envy). I think most of them also know that the chances of success for the relationship is small.

There are many precedents for this in Asian culture and religion, Taoism being an example. I have not lived in China for 30 years but I doubt if it has completely done an about face concerning young women and older men.

Perhaps some forget there are many belief systems in Asia that are deep seated and not on the surface but firmly ingrained in Asian culture. Hsuan wei Hshin (Mental Images of the Mysteries and Subtleties of Sexual Techniques') and San Feng Tan Cheueh (Zhang Sanfeng's Instructions in the Physiological Alchemy) just to qutoe a couple.

I doubt if many Thais would think it perversion to see a 60 year old man with a 20 year old woman. They may frown on it but perversion is a very strong word.

I am a member of a group of six men, 50 to 60 who work out together at a local gym and spa. Three Thais, one Japanese, one Italian and me. We are all in semi retired. With the exception of myself they all are involved with 20 year old women. I put this question to them and they all told me no one has a problem with their relationships.

I agree with a lot of your insights and perceptions of Asian culture. I think large age gaps are much more acceptable here, when it is in favor of the man. Older women here are largely viewed as an object to be discarded, whereas younger women are objects to use, buy, and sell.

From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need. I also have a problem with these same middle-aged and old men who date women and girls 20-30 years younger than themselves, and then rant and speak in derogatory ways about Western women. For me, these are largely the same people, and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think in its very essence it is misogynist, because it is a hatred of women except in the guise of a younger, more controllable form. It also doesn't exhibit much in the value of women as women, only as objects, trophies, and sexual things.

I also regularly attract boys and men half my age, and I don't even have to pay them. But, I draw the line at certain ages, because just because I can doesn't mean I should. However, men my age here look and think like my father. Why on earth should I be relegated to a certain status simply because of my age, by men who look and ARE far older than me?

THAT is the source of a lot of hostility - the attitudes of so many of these men in large age-gap relationships.

I would disagree with your statement that older Thai women are to be discarded. What I see is that they change roles around 45 to 55. The role becomes more spiritual and home oriented rather than the fun loving sanuk sanuk woman of 35. It may of course just be me but all of the older Thai women that I know are respected members of their families and still make most of the important decisions. I also know one Thai lady of 60 who has a 45 year old Farang husband. They have a beautiful home and a large ginger farm that she works daily.

I know a lot of men here who bash Western women. Some with reason and some to justify their existence here.

For business reasons I have been spending a lot of time recently in an entertainment venue that caters almost exclusively to Western women and Western couples mostly in their 20’s. I must admit it has reinforced many negative stereotypes in my mind.

The Western women I know who are single and living in the West are in some kind of fairy tale state.

Let me describe a couple of them. Barbara is a wealthy 60 year old retired lady who was a Clinical Psychologist for 30 years and married to a dentist who divorced her. She was in an auto accident and could not walk well for a year and gained 30 on a very small frame which she makes no attempt to remove. She says she has reached the point in her life that she wants another husband. She has kept me abreast of her husband finding attempts for the past five years. She wants a Brad Pitt who does not smoke or drink is great in bed and is wealthy.

Mary is a 50 year old woman (business owner) who only had one man in her entire life (her husband) until she got into internet dating. She divorced him and has slept with 80 different men in the last 5 years and cannot figure out why none of them has asked her to marry. She is also 60 pounds overweight.

I love them both dearly as they have been life long friends but they are delusional.

My ex Western wife who was 5’ 2” gained 65 pounds the first year of our marriage, cut off all of her hair, started drinking heavily and asked me why I did not want to have sex more often.

I have had numerous bad experiences with Western women and no bad experiences with Thai women. I am sure I am not alone in that fact.

I think you may be interpreting misogyny as something it is not.

It is not just Western women but Western society that has changed in a manner I find very disturbing. I think some women may see this as misogyny. Traditional roles of men and women in the West have changed and I don’t like it.

In Thailand traditional roles are changing but they have not changed yet. The society I was used to in the West when I was growing up and impressionable is pretty much the society I find in Thailand except the language is different.

I pretty much agree with your statement below.

“From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need.” I would add that most marriage/relationships in Thailand are also based on male sexuality and female need.

30 year age gaps although not the norm are accepted in the West among the rich, famous and powerful.

In Thailand rich, famous and powerful may include a lot of Farangs who would not have that status in the West.

It is easier for a older Western man in Thailand to have a relationship with a young Thai woman because the young Thai woman has more in common with the old Western man than Farang young woman would have.

A lot of Thai women are raised with three generations in the home and feel at ease with the older generation. Music, food, entertainment are not as segregated by age here as in the West.

I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West.

Well, this is just another western women have too high of expectations rant as far as I am concerned. Another old boys want it all blah blah blah that isnt' relevant to the thread.

I will not tolerate a blow by blow dissection of everything that is wrong with western women in this forum.

Back to the topic at hand, which, frankly seems to have been taken over by farang men assuming what farang women think or discussing how wonderful their relationships are with Thai women etc. None of which really has much to do with what western women think when they see a Thai woman with a farang man. Seems to me most of the women have already answered that question and most of them men just can't accept that the women don't hate them or aren't jealous of the skinny Thai women.

Enough of this or the thread will be closed.

SBK, I appreciate you're looking out for the integrity of the sub-forum, but please don't close the thread. I think there have been some very relevant points made, albeit just different than the points I would make It's a good discussion and I don't think it is near the level of bashing.

KerryK: You made a couple of very good points, especially your last one:

"I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West"

except that I don't think women are "leading" the cultural revolution in the West, except to initiate their independence. And of course, that's how it would be for any group, because the dominant group will not do so in any cultural revolution. I happen to think that better pay, better education, better jobs, and better sex are a definite improvement for more than just women.

At any rate, I don't want to get into a long, involved discussion about women's rights in the West right now. But, I do believe that is also a major source of tension here, and no, I don't think I'm off the mark about misogyny. If you must suppress everything about a woman including her natural sexuality for the advantage and benefit of men then you do hate women in her unsuppressed form.

I may have been a little harsh about the age thing. I'll have to think about this. I think some people can be ageless for most of their lives, and as an effect attract people of all ages. I don't know what it's like to be 50-60 years old and to attract someone half your age, but I do know that I have always attracted all ages. However, I draw the line at people more than 20 years younger. I think after a certain age 37/60 it doesn't matter, but I think there are still some age groups where it does - 26/58?? I have to think about this some more.

But, I can't get the image of the Philippines out of my mind, where it is even more common for geriatric men to flock there to marry pubescent and teenage girls. In no uncertain terms, I think that is disgusting and an enslavement of girls - not by outright bondage - but by family obligation, poverty, and formalized lechery. There is no way I think that it is acceptable, especially if you must go off to an economically disadvantaged country to find this.

In terms of your examples of older women above - well, those are just your examples. I know a few women who do not fit your stereotypes at all.

[somchai jones]

I have been the recipient of many bad looks and comments in the States because my last wife was much younger than I. The main problem in our marriage was my work. I had to work far more than she deemed acceptable and could not spend the time with her that she thought was proper. One works a lot of hours in the restaurant business and she was not happy at all with the arrangement. For the rest, were very compatible.

In Thailand my lady is 37 and I am 60. She is not a young looking 37. She is very outgoing and we have many friends of all ages and social status. We don’t get any funny looks or snide comments.

A lot of our friends are Thai women who own their own businesses or are moderately well off.

It has been my experience in Thailand that women in their early 20’s are comfortable with a man to 35 years of age. Thai women in their 30’s comfortable with a man to 60 years of age. Thai women in their 40’s or 50’s told me age does not matter at all.

The reason I am aware of this is because I get asked a lot if I have any friends from America who would like to meet a Thai woman. I am constantly amazed by the amount of Thai women who don’t like Thai men. Not all certainly but a substantial amount. (For the doubters , no, these are not bar girls. Not even close to bar girls. They are not from Issan. They are just normal working women from Chiang Mai.)

I lived in the South of the US and don’t find the age patterns much different in Thailand than in Arkansas.

Seems to me that both men and women in their first marriage seem to pick partners close to the same age but in following marriages are more flexible. I would attribute this to a learning curve about relationships.

There are obviously a lot of relationships in Thailand which involve 20 year old women and 60 year old men both Thai and foreign. One can also see this in other parts of Asia and Thailand does not have a corner on the market.

I think I can speak for a majority of men 60 and over when I say this does not bother them (except perhaps envy). I think most of them also know that the chances of success for the relationship is small.

There are many precedents for this in Asian culture and religion, Taoism being an example. I have not lived in China for 30 years but I doubt if it has completely done an about face concerning young women and older men.

Perhaps some forget there are many belief systems in Asia that are deep seated and not on the surface but firmly ingrained in Asian culture. Hsuan wei Hshin (Mental Images of the Mysteries and Subtleties of Sexual Techniques') and San Feng Tan Cheueh (Zhang Sanfeng's Instructions in the Physiological Alchemy) just to qutoe a couple.

I doubt if many Thais would think it perversion to see a 60 year old man with a 20 year old woman. They may frown on it but perversion is a very strong word.

I am a member of a group of six men, 50 to 60 who work out together at a local gym and spa. Three Thais, one Japanese, one Italian and me. We are all in semi retired. With the exception of myself they all are involved with 20 year old women. I put this question to them and they all told me no one has a problem with their relationships.

I agree with a lot of your insights and perceptions of Asian culture. I think large age gaps are much more acceptable here, when it is in favor of the man. Older women here are largely viewed as an object to be discarded, whereas younger women are objects to use, buy, and sell.

From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need. I also have a problem with these same middle-aged and old men who date women and girls 20-30 years younger than themselves, and then rant and speak in derogatory ways about Western women. For me, these are largely the same people, and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think in its very essence it is misogynist, because it is a hatred of women except in the guise of a younger, more controllable form. It also doesn't exhibit much in the value of women as women, only as objects, trophies, and sexual things.

I also regularly attract boys and men half my age, and I don't even have to pay them. But, I draw the line at certain ages, because just because I can doesn't mean I should. However, men my age here look and think like my father. Why on earth should I be relegated to a certain status simply because of my age, by men who look and ARE far older than me?

THAT is the source of a lot of hostility - the attitudes of so many of these men in large age-gap relationships.

I would disagree with your statement that older Thai women are to be discarded. What I see is that they change roles around 45 to 55. The role becomes more spiritual and home oriented rather than the fun loving sanuk sanuk woman of 35. It may of course just be me but all of the older Thai women that I know are respected members of their families and still make most of the important decisions. I also know one Thai lady of 60 who has a 45 year old Farang husband. They have a beautiful home and a large ginger farm that she works daily.

I know a lot of men here who bash Western women. Some with reason and some to justify their existence here.

For business reasons I have been spending a lot of time recently in an entertainment venue that caters almost exclusively to Western women and Western couples mostly in their 20’s. I must admit it has reinforced many negative stereotypes in my mind.

The Western women I know who are single and living in the West are in some kind of fairy tale state.

Let me describe a couple of them. Barbara is a wealthy 60 year old retired lady who was a Clinical Psychologist for 30 years and married to a dentist who divorced her. She was in an auto accident and could not walk well for a year and gained 30 on a very small frame which she makes no attempt to remove. She says she has reached the point in her life that she wants another husband. She has kept me abreast of her husband finding attempts for the past five years. She wants a Brad Pitt who does not smoke or drink is great in bed and is wealthy.

Mary is a 50 year old woman (business owner) who only had one man in her entire life (her husband) until she got into internet dating. She divorced him and has slept with 80 different men in the last 5 years and cannot figure out why none of them has asked her to marry. She is also 60 pounds overweight.

I love them both dearly as they have been life long friends but they are delusional.

My ex Western wife who was 5’ 2” gained 65 pounds the first year of our marriage, cut off all of her hair, started drinking heavily and asked me why I did not want to have sex more often.

I have had numerous bad experiences with Western women and no bad experiences with Thai women. I am sure I am not alone in that fact.

I think you may be interpreting misogyny as something it is not.

It is not just Western women but Western society that has changed in a manner I find very disturbing. I think some women may see this as misogyny. Traditional roles of men and women in the West have changed and I don’t like it.

In Thailand traditional roles are changing but they have not changed yet. The society I was used to in the West when I was growing up and impressionable is pretty much the society I find in Thailand except the language is different.

I pretty much agree with your statement below.

“From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need.” I would add that most marriage/relationships in Thailand are also based on male sexuality and female need.

30 year age gaps although not the norm are accepted in the West among the rich, famous and powerful.

In Thailand rich, famous and powerful may include a lot of Farangs who would not have that status in the West.

It is easier for a older Western man in Thailand to have a relationship with a young Thai woman because the young Thai woman has more in common with the old Western man than Farang young woman would have.

A lot of Thai women are raised with three generations in the home and feel at ease with the older generation. Music, food, entertainment are not as segregated by age here as in the West.

I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West.

Well, this is just another western women have too high of expectations rant as far as I am concerned. Another old boys want it all blah blah blah that isnt' relevant to the thread.

I will not tolerate a blow by blow dissection of everything that is wrong with western women in this forum.

Back to the topic at hand, which, frankly seems to have been taken over by farang men assuming what farang women think or discussing how wonderful their relationships are with Thai women etc. None of which really has much to do with what western women think when they see a Thai woman with a farang man. Seems to me most of the women have already answered that question and most of them men just can't accept that the women don't hate them or aren't jealous of the skinny Thai women.

Enough of this or the thread will be closed.

SBK, I appreciate you're looking out for the integrity of the sub-forum, but please don't close the thread. I think there have been some very relevant points made, albeit just different than the points I would make It's a good discussion and I don't think it is near the level of bashing.

KerryK: You made a couple of very good points, especially your last one:

"I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West"

except that I don't think women are "leading" the cultural revolution in the West, except to initiate their independence. And of course, that's how it would be for any group, because the dominant group will not do so in any cultural revolution. I happen to think that better pay, better education, better jobs, and better sex are a definite improvement for more than just women.

At any rate, I don't want to get into a long, involved discussion about women's rights in the West right now. But, I do believe that is also a major source of tension here, and no, I don't think I'm off the mark about misogyny. If you must suppress everything about a woman including her natural sexuality for the advantage and benefit of men then you do hate women in her unsuppressed form.

I may have been a little harsh about the age thing. I'll have to think about this. I think some people can be ageless for most of their lives, and as an effect attract people of all ages. I don't know what it's like to be 50-60 years old and to attract someone half your age, but I do know that I have always attracted all ages. However, I draw the line at people more than 20 years younger. I think after a certain age 37/60 it doesn't matter, but I think there are still some age groups where it does - 26/58?? I have to think about this some more.

But, I can't get the image of the Philippines out of my mind, where it is even more common for geriatric men to flock there to marry pubescent and teenage girls. In no uncertain terms, I think that is disgusting and an enslavement of girls - not by outright bondage - but by family obligation, poverty, and formalized lechery. There is no way I think that it is acceptable, especially if you must go off to an economically disadvantaged country to find this.

In terms of your examples of older women above - well, those are just your examples. I know a few women who do not fit your stereotypes at all.

I'm enjoying this! KerryK in the red corner, Kat in the blue.

Your turn KerryK....but beware, the referee in this bout is a tough one.......

[LaReina]

KerryK: You made some good points I must admit.. although I am a bit confused over this statement :” It is easier for a older Western man in Thailand to have a relationship with a young Thai woman because the young Thai woman has more in common with the old Western man than Farang young woman would have.”

I honestly would like to know what “any” older man would have in common with “any” younger girl. Serious question.

I can see him having more in common with the farang girl from his country hands down just in terms of culture. But please do explain. I am not trying to be funny, I am really curious.

I do have to admit, that you do tend to see a lot more farang women “letting go” of themselves, the moment they get married. Have you been to the US recently? But then when contemplating marriage you should put the weight and “letting go” fear into the marriage vows.

Love aside, my husband told me prior to getting married, that “letting myself go” was not an option. Ohh and “butch” hair cuts.

As for all you guys who claim you can’t find a “farang” girl to date, where are you looking?

[sbk]

Yes, but appearance is such a superficial reason to "fall out of love" with someone, isn't it? It doesn't speak much for either the husband or the relationship if he cares so little for his wife that he won't stay married to her if "she lets herself go". I see plenty of chubby married men but you don't hear women saying "if he lets himself go thats the end of the relationship" do you?

There are many reasons for women to gain weight after marriage, or to "let themselves go". Alot of women have difficulty losing the weight after having a baby. Alot of women have difficulty finding the time to groom themselves beautifully when they have a house to keep maintained, children to take care of and a job to go to.

Again, I don't hear this barb aimed at men and I certainly wouldn't leave my husband because he gained weight. I love the person inside the body, not the body. And if he gained too much weight I would be more concerned for his personal health and state of emotional health than I would be about the way he looks.

[LaReina]

And there lies the problem. Women, especially western women, are not very superficial. I met a farang man whose Thai wife divorced him and gave one of the reasons for the divorce to his “weight gain”.

Appearance should not be a reason to “fall out of love” with a person, but it can cause less sexual attraction. Dating an ugly person from the get go, is not the same as dating a skinny person who “let go”. Ugliness (besides being apparent from the get go) can’t be controlled, the later can.

Its false advertising. We look our best when we are dating, and we should maintain it afterwards and it should go both ways.

I’m sorry SBK, but I just don’t agree with the reasons for a woman letting herself go. This maybe a cultural difference. Most of the women I know that have let themselves go, let themselves go due to the over abundance of fast food, and the desire not to have to cook a meal. This also applies to Thai women who live abroad.

But you are 100% right.. there is a complete double standard when it comes to men. And no, it does not speak much for my husband, but I appreciated his honesty.

[Soju]

Appearance should not be a reason to “fall out of love” with a person, but it can cause less sexual attraction. Dating an ugly person from the get go, is not the same as dating a skinny person who “let go”. Ugliness (besides being apparent from the get go) can’t be controlled, the later can.

Its false advertising. We look our best when we are dating, and we should maintain it afterwards and it should go both ways.

I think it depends a lot on the reasons for "letting one's self go". If appearance is very important to someone and their partner let's themself go without good reason, it will likely create doubt that the partner really is in love. I try to maintain my appearance to please my wife because I love her, and she does the same to me. If I started gaining weight and she told me that it bothered her and I made no attempt to control my weight gain, it would likely create doubts in her mind that I really loved her as much as I say I do. Likewise if she just stayed home all day and ate excessively and refused to go to the gym after my suggestions to her, then I would have my doubts about her sincerity. Add this to other problems and it's not difficult to see how excessive weight gain or letting one's self go can easily be a catalyst in falling out of love with your partner.

[kerryk]

Well, this is just another western women have too high of expectations rant as far as I am concerned. Another old boys want it all blah blah blah that isnt' relevant to the thread.

I will not tolerate a blow by blow dissection of everything that is wrong with western women in this forum.

Back to the topic at hand, which, frankly seems to have been taken over by farang men assuming what farang women think or discussing how wonderful their relationships are with Thai women etc. None of which really has much to do with what western women think when they see a Thai woman with a farang man. Seems to me most of the women have already answered that question and most of them men just can't accept that the women don't hate them or aren't jealous of the skinny Thai women.

Enough of this or the thread will be closed.

SBK, one of the points I was trying to make was that it was not a male female thing. I was trying to say it was a cultural difference rather than a sex difference. I had no intention on going into a rant about Western women. In the venue I was talking about it was more of a backpacker vs. ex pat thing. I will try and be clearer in the future.

[kerryk]

I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West.

What exactly about young western women's behavior upsets you?

I would answer you but I don’t think it is relevant to the topic of this thread. I think every generation has to have things that are unique to it that intentionally upsets the older generation. For example when I was a kid my parents listened to Lawrence Welk and I would go outside till the show was over. I listened to rock and roll and they told me it was awful. I had long hair which they did not like. I went to live in a hippie commune for a while and they almost disowned me.

[kerryk]

I have been the recipient of many bad looks and comments in the States because my last wife was much younger than I. The main problem in our marriage was my work. I had to work far more than she deemed acceptable and could not spend the time with her that she thought was proper. One works a lot of hours in the restaurant business and she was not happy at all with the arrangement. For the rest, were very compatible.

In Thailand my lady is 37 and I am 60. She is not a young looking 37. She is very outgoing and we have many friends of all ages and social status. We don’t get any funny looks or snide comments.

A lot of our friends are Thai women who own their own businesses or are moderately well off.

It has been my experience in Thailand that women in their early 20’s are comfortable with a man to 35 years of age. Thai women in their 30’s comfortable with a man to 60 years of age. Thai women in their 40’s or 50’s told me age does not matter at all.

The reason I am aware of this is because I get asked a lot if I have any friends from America who would like to meet a Thai woman. I am constantly amazed by the amount of Thai women who don’t like Thai men. Not all certainly but a substantial amount. (For the doubters , no, these are not bar girls. Not even close to bar girls. They are not from Issan. They are just normal working women from Chiang Mai.)

I lived in the South of the US and don’t find the age patterns much different in Thailand than in Arkansas.

Seems to me that both men and women in their first marriage seem to pick partners close to the same age but in following marriages are more flexible. I would attribute this to a learning curve about relationships.

There are obviously a lot of relationships in Thailand which involve 20 year old women and 60 year old men both Thai and foreign. One can also see this in other parts of Asia and Thailand does not have a corner on the market.

I think I can speak for a majority of men 60 and over when I say this does not bother them (except perhaps envy). I think most of them also know that the chances of success for the relationship is small.

There are many precedents for this in Asian culture and religion, Taoism being an example. I have not lived in China for 30 years but I doubt if it has completely done an about face concerning young women and older men.

Perhaps some forget there are many belief systems in Asia that are deep seated and not on the surface but firmly ingrained in Asian culture. Hsuan wei Hshin (Mental Images of the Mysteries and Subtleties of Sexual Techniques') and San Feng Tan Cheueh (Zhang Sanfeng's Instructions in the Physiological Alchemy) just to qutoe a couple.

I doubt if many Thais would think it perversion to see a 60 year old man with a 20 year old woman. They may frown on it but perversion is a very strong word.

I am a member of a group of six men, 50 to 60 who work out together at a local gym and spa. Three Thais, one Japanese, one Italian and me. We are all in semi retired. With the exception of myself they all are involved with 20 year old women. I put this question to them and they all told me no one has a problem with their relationships.

I agree with a lot of your insights and perceptions of Asian culture. I think large age gaps are much more acceptable here, when it is in favor of the man. Older women here are largely viewed as an object to be discarded, whereas younger women are objects to use, buy, and sell.

From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need. I also have a problem with these same middle-aged and old men who date women and girls 20-30 years younger than themselves, and then rant and speak in derogatory ways about Western women. For me, these are largely the same people, and I don't think it's a coincidence. I think in its very essence it is misogynist, because it is a hatred of women except in the guise of a younger, more controllable form. It also doesn't exhibit much in the value of women as women, only as objects, trophies, and sexual things.

I also regularly attract boys and men half my age, and I don't even have to pay them. But, I draw the line at certain ages, because just because I can doesn't mean I should. However, men my age here look and think like my father. Why on earth should I be relegated to a certain status simply because of my age, by men who look and ARE far older than me?

THAT is the source of a lot of hostility - the attitudes of so many of these men in large age-gap relationships.

I would disagree with your statement that older Thai women are to be discarded. What I see is that they change roles around 45 to 55. The role becomes more spiritual and home oriented rather than the fun loving sanuk sanuk woman of 35. It may of course just be me but all of the older Thai women that I know are respected members of their families and still make most of the important decisions. I also know one Thai lady of 60 who has a 45 year old Farang husband. They have a beautiful home and a large ginger farm that she works daily.

I know a lot of men here who bash Western women. Some with reason and some to justify their existence here.

For business reasons I have been spending a lot of time recently in an entertainment venue that caters almost exclusively to Western women and Western couples mostly in their 20’s. I must admit it has reinforced many negative stereotypes in my mind.

The Western women I know who are single and living in the West are in some kind of fairy tale state.

Let me describe a couple of them. Barbara is a wealthy 60 year old retired lady who was a Clinical Psychologist for 30 years and married to a dentist who divorced her. She was in an auto accident and could not walk well for a year and gained 30 on a very small frame which she makes no attempt to remove. She says she has reached the point in her life that she wants another husband. She has kept me abreast of her husband finding attempts for the past five years. She wants a Brad Pitt who does not smoke or drink is great in bed and is wealthy.

Mary is a 50 year old woman (business owner) who only had one man in her entire life (her husband) until she got into internet dating. She divorced him and has slept with 80 different men in the last 5 years and cannot figure out why none of them has asked her to marry. She is also 60 pounds overweight.

I love them both dearly as they have been life long friends but they are delusional.

My ex Western wife who was 5’ 2” gained 65 pounds the first year of our marriage, cut off all of her hair, started drinking heavily and asked me why I did not want to have sex more often.

I have had numerous bad experiences with Western women and no bad experiences with Thai women. I am sure I am not alone in that fact.

I think you may be interpreting misogyny as something it is not.

It is not just Western women but Western society that has changed in a manner I find very disturbing. I think some women may see this as misogyny. Traditional roles of men and women in the West have changed and I don’t like it.

In Thailand traditional roles are changing but they have not changed yet. The society I was used to in the West when I was growing up and impressionable is pretty much the society I find in Thailand except the language is different.

I pretty much agree with your statement below.

“From my perspective, 30-year age gaps are not natural. They are not based on female sexuality, but on male sexuality and female need.” I would add that most marriage/relationships in Thailand are also based on male sexuality and female need.

30 year age gaps although not the norm are accepted in the West among the rich, famous and powerful.

In Thailand rich, famous and powerful may include a lot of Farangs who would not have that status in the West.

It is easier for a older Western man in Thailand to have a relationship with a young Thai woman because the young Thai woman has more in common with the old Western man than Farang young woman would have.

A lot of Thai women are raised with three generations in the home and feel at ease with the older generation. Music, food, entertainment are not as segregated by age here as in the West.

I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West.

Well, this is just another western women have too high of expectations rant as far as I am concerned. Another old boys want it all blah blah blah that isnt' relevant to the thread.

I will not tolerate a blow by blow dissection of everything that is wrong with western women in this forum.

Back to the topic at hand, which, frankly seems to have been taken over by farang men assuming what farang women think or discussing how wonderful their relationships are with Thai women etc. None of which really has much to do with what western women think when they see a Thai woman with a farang man. Seems to me most of the women have already answered that question and most of them men just can't accept that the women don't hate them or aren't jealous of the skinny Thai women.

Enough of this or the thread will be closed.

SBK, I appreciate you're looking out for the integrity of the sub-forum, but please don't close the thread. I think there have been some very relevant points made, albeit just different than the points I would make It's a good discussion and I don't think it is near the level of bashing.

KerryK: You made a couple of very good points, especially your last one:

"I can understand in the same way that young Western women’s behavior upsets me that old Western men’s behavior would up set you. I don’t think it is misogyny. I think it is a cultural gap and women just happen to be leading the cultural revolution in the West"

except that I don't think women are "leading" the cultural revolution in the West, except to initiate their independence. And of course, that's how it would be for any group, because the dominant group will not do so in any cultural revolution. I happen to think that better pay, better education, better jobs, and better sex are a definite improvement for more than just women.

At any rate, I don't want to get into a long, involved discussion about women's rights in the West right now. But, I do believe that is also a major source of tension here, and no, I don't think I'm off the mark about misogyny. If you must suppress everything about a woman including her natural sexuality for the advantage and benefit of men then you do hate women in her unsuppressed form.

I may have been a little harsh about the age thing. I'll have to think about this. I think some people can be ageless for most of their lives, and as an effect attract people of all ages. I don't know what it's like to be 50-60 years old and to attract someone half your age, but I do know that I have always attracted all ages. However, I draw the line at people more than 20 years younger. I think after a certain age 37/60 it doesn't matter, but I think there are still some age groups where it does - 26/58?? I have to think about this some more.

But, I can't get the image of the Philippines out of my mind, where it is even more common for geriatric men to flock there to marry pubescent and teenage girls. In no uncertain terms, I think that is disgusting and an enslavement of girls - not by outright bondage - but by family obligation, poverty, and formalized lechery. There is no way I think that it is acceptable, especially if you must go off to an economically disadvantaged country to find this.

In terms of your examples of older women above - well, those are just your examples. I know a few women who do not fit your stereotypes at all.

I am hesitant to answer your statements because I want to stay on topic. I don’t want to rant about Western women.

I think what you said was that when you see a Farang man and a Thai woman you are only upset if there is very young woman and a very old man.

You said this means the man hates women. I said I don’t think that is the case.

I would love to debate that but I fear it is not on topic.

[kerryk]

KerryK: You made some good points I must admit.. although I am a bit confused over this statement :” It is easier for a older Western man in Thailand to have a relationship with a young Thai woman because the young Thai woman has more in common with the old Western man than Farang young woman would have.”

I honestly would like to know what “any” older man would have in common with “any” younger girl. Serious question.

I can see him having more in common with the farang girl from his country hands down just in terms of culture. But please do explain. I am not trying to be funny, I am really curious.

I do have to admit, that you do tend to see a lot more farang women “letting go” of themselves, the moment they get married. Have you been to the US recently? But then when contemplating marriage you should put the weight and “letting go” fear into the marriage vows.

Love aside, my husband told me prior to getting married, that “letting myself go” was not an option. Ohh and “butch” hair cuts.

As for all you guys who claim you can’t find a “farang” girl to date, where are you looking?

We went out last night. In our party was a 22 year old university student a 20 year old part time lady boy, my self and my Thai lady. Later we were joined by a lesbian couple (late 20’s) and a 60 year old Thai man.

We went to the same restaurant ate the same food. Then we went to a disco and all danced. Then we went to an after hours club and danced some more. The lady boy was an outrageous flirt and picked up a Western guy and left.

The lesbian couple had too much to drink and one started flirting with the 60 year old Thai guy. They got them in a fight and they left. The 60 year old Thai guy got involved in a conversation with one of the university student’s friends and they left. That left three of who had a pleasant evening.

I have been out with a number of young people in the West and have not found this mixing of age groups to be a common thing. Clubs are more age oriented as are the age groups more segregated. Also in the entertainment scene sexual orientation seems to separate groups of people in the West.

In Thailand young people both men and women seem to mix socially with older people without any friction.

In a lot of cases even enjoy the same music and shows.

My Thai isn’t good enough to see any difference but I think the speech patterns are also similar between age groups.

I get really upset at my youngest daughter (in US), who is an educated person but speaks like she was a hip hop gansta from LA on occasion.

My take on this is the prevalence of three generations living in the same home leads to less friction between the generations. Or in some cases children being raised by grandparents.

If you go into a club playing hip hop or trance or whatever and ask the DJ to put on some Jin ta la (sp) all of the women start yelling and laughing and dancing regardless of age. In my experience there is no common thread in Western music that would produce the same response in Farang land.

(SBK delete this if you find it not relevant) Finding a Farang woman to date?

I don’t go to bars to pick up women but I do meet women on occasion. I normally meet them in the Mall or in the grocery store. I am good at reading body language I have even taken a couple of courses in it. When I walk in the grocery store I can sense if a hello would be appropriate or an attempt to start a conversation. I am 60 and I find that Thai women from their late 20’s to early 50’s occasionally send signals that they would not mind me saying hello. Since I live in a semi tourist area there are also a number of Farang women shopping in the grocery store. I have never seen any indication they wanted to talk except on one occasion to use me to decipher some Thai writing on a package. I am basically a shy person so I would never make a move without some kind of indication that it was wanted.

[kerryk]

Yes, but appearance is such a superficial reason to "fall out of love" with someone, isn't it? It doesn't speak much for either the husband or the relationship if he cares so little for his wife that he won't stay married to her if "she lets herself go". I see plenty of chubby married men but you don't hear women saying "if he lets himself go thats the end of the relationship" do you?

There are many reasons for women to gain weight after marriage, or to "let themselves go". Alot of women have difficulty losing the weight after having a baby. Alot of women have difficulty finding the time to groom themselves beautifully when they have a house to keep maintained, children to take care of and a job to go to.

Again, I don't hear this barb aimed at men and I certainly wouldn't leave my husband because he gained weight. I love the person inside the body, not the body. And if he gained too much weight I would be more concerned for his personal health and state of emotional health than I would be about the way he looks.

Men are visually oriented and women are not. That is one of the differences between the sexes. I guess you could call it a double standard but I would think it would be more accurate to say that universally women don’t care near as much about appearance as men do. There is an old Russian saying about a man looking like a monkey and bill paying ability. I really don’t think it is a control or subjugation issue, it is one of the physical differences between men and women. I think a number of things show this including men’s magazines vs. women’s magazines, entertainment venues, clothing styles, hair and beauty salons and spas and one could go on forever.

If women really were concerned about men’s looks there would be cosmetic counters as large for men as there are for women.

You can talk a lot about who is in charge but as a woman you really hold all of the power. I will stand out in the rain, dessert my best friend or rob a stage coach if that is what the woman I love really wants me to do.