What Israel must do now

[goatfarmer]

It is also clear that the Israel leadership has a clear interest in destroying the Gazan economy,

It is a preferred Israeli tactic as explained here

(Bold & underline added by myself)

Israel's war of disproportionate force on Gaza

In fact, it’s a primary strategy according to Gabi Siboni, head of the Military and Strategic Affairs program at the Institute for National Security Studies in Israel.

This strategy has a well-documented history in Gaza. With the emergence of hostilities, “the IDF will need to act immediately, decisively, and with force that is

disproportionate to the enemy's actions and the threat it poses,” Siboni wrote.

The military response should aim “to inflict enough damage and punishment to require lengthy and immense reconstruction efforts.”

This is the real issue if anyone wants to debate the morality of Israeli actions. Personally I think it's a can of worms and not on topic (which is what should be done - not what should Israel not have done).

[Ulysses G.]

When Israel was serious about peace with Egypt and Jordan, it got it.

Egypt and Jordan said YES. The Palestinians have continually said NO. It is not rocket science or some kind of conspiracy theory.

[simple1]

The entire OP is little more than a deliberate diversion. Just as Hamas, Boko Haram, ISIS and Al Qaeda are all cut from the same cloth, so to is the,dilemma facing Israel and the Western world. To obsess about Israel and sanctimoniously preach what she should do is both cowardly and delusional.

The pure evil which is political Islam has again escaped from the bottle in the form of the third Jihad. Whist it may seem superficially tempting for Israel to throw her lot in with the so called Arab plan doing so would be to deal with governments whose own tenure is unstable to say the least, as Egypt recently demonstrated. The leverage Hamas has is political not military, Israel could eliminate them quite easily were it not for a coalition of leftists and Islamists pressurizing Western nations to hold Israel back. Eliminating Hamas and bolstering secular rulers, tyrants if need be, in the Middle East is the only way forward until Islam outgrows it's political aspirations.

I have read commentry that to eliminate Hamas & other Jihadist groups in Gaza would require an Israeli military occupation for a number of years; somewhere around 3/5 years. Maybe incorrect, but believe there is insufficient Israeli domestic support for significant military losses (forecast in the hundreds of deaths).

[goatfarmer]

Israel stole the land from Palestinians. And after that, if that was not enough, they expanded on the West Bank that not even the UN agreed upon.

How can the Palestines ever be in peace with a state that stole their land?

If you guys do not believe me, incredible that someone does not, go read upon the topic, there are MANY Jews who themselves admit that Israel is doing something VERY wrong, amongst them Finkelstein, Chomsky, IIan Pappe, Miko Peled etc...

Israel did not 'steal' land from Palestinians. Immigrating Jews bought land from Palestinians prior to 1947.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

Israel conquered land after that during wars. If 'conquering' can be regarded as 'stealing' so be it. In that case we should require everyone of Normal origin to leave England in order that the Celts may live in peace, not to mention a few other conquered territories around the world.

[dexterm]

When Israel was serious about peace with Egypt and Jordan, it got it.

Egypt and Jordan said YES. The Palestinians have continually said NO. It is not rocket science or some kind of conspiracy theory.

Palestinians have never been offered 100% (they'll accept land swaps) of land stolen since 1967. Israel can keep the rest post 1948...not a bad compromise.

Why does Israel sacrifice the youth of the majority of its citizens just to pander to half a million religious nutjob colonists in the West Bank. How on earth did Israel allow that to happen? It's been the thorn in the side of peace for the last 47 years.

to answer you other point about a so call "thriving" Israel:

I wouldn’t call the lifestyle “thriving” when Israel robs teenagers of the best years of their lives with 3 years brutalizing military service, or periodic bloodletting by the likes of Netanyahu with 67 young Israelis dead, and the population living in air raid shelters and the main airport closed, and wondering if the bus you get on has a suicide bomber on board, and the collective paranoia about hostile neighbors. Not much Gross National Happiness there.

Economically wouldn’t Israel be better off by replacing the BDS with a free trade agreement with all its Arab neighbors and the EU? Israelis and Palestinians could one day be sitting on the most expensive piece of real estate in the world, the financial and tourist hub of the Middle East.

Shalom

[Ulysses G.]

When Israel was serious about peace with Egypt and Jordan, it got it.

Egypt and Jordan said YES. The Palestinians have continually said NO. It is not rocket science or some kind of conspiracy theory.

Palestinians have never been offered 100%

And they never will be. They turned that deal down 66 years ago and Israel is not going back to such insecure borders. Actions have consequences and the Palestinians are going to pay for the stupid decisions that they have made over and over again. Beggars can't be choosers.

[Seastallion]

All it needs is Israel's agreement.

No. That is incorrect. Hamas is half of the Palestinian government and getting rid of them is a pipe-dream at this point in time It makes no difference, at all, what Israel "agrees to" until Hamas are actually gone.

I don't think you read or comprehended the OP. The strategy suggested would sideline Hammas and make them impotent. Time and continued peace would further erode Hammas, to it's eventual natural demise.

While Israel continues to occupy and blockade, Hammas will continue to exist. It's impossible to annihilate Hammas with force without annihilating Palestine. Unless that is the aim (and many have good reason to suspect it is).

For Israel to have any credibility and to stop perpetuating their crimes, the OP offers a solution.

I have not yet read anyone reasoning why the strategy would not work (except for the tired old bigotries that don't actually make sense and are thus not "reasoning")

[Seastallion]

When Israel was serious about peace with Egypt and Jordan, it got it.

Egypt and Jordan said YES. The Palestinians have continually said NO. It is not rocket science or some kind of conspiracy theory.

Palestinians have never been offered 100%

And they never will be. They turned that deal down 66 years ago and Israel is not going back to such insecure borders. Actions have consequences and the Palestinians are going to pay for the stupid decisions that they have made over and over again. Beggars can't be choosers.

There are reasonable arguments to say that Palestine SHOULD be offered 100%. If I stole $100 dollars from you, would you think it just that, when pressed, I returned only $25 and spent the rest on myself?

Is that justice?

Apparently, because I'm bigger and tougher than you and it was only the neighbours peer pressure that forced me to give the $25 back, is ok by you because I'm bigger and tougher, so you have to settle for whatever I give you?

[Ulysses G.]

There are reasonable arguments to say that Palestine SHOULD be offered 100%. If I stole $100 dollars from you, would you think it just that, when pressed, I returned only $25 and spent the rest on myself?

Your example has no bearing on reality. The Palestinians turned down the UN deal. They possessed no land to be "stolen" and they still don't. There was never an independent Arab state called Palestine. They are trying to get something that they never had and refused when offered it..

Edited August 17, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[simple1]

Egypt and Jordan said YES. The Palestinians have continually said NO. It is not rocket science or some kind of conspiracy theory.

Palestinians have never been offered 100%

And they never will be. They turned that deal down 66 years ago and Israel is not going back to such insecure borders. Actions have consequences and the Palestinians are going to pay for the stupid decisions that they have made over and over again. Beggars can't be choosers.

There are reasonable arguments to say that Palestine SHOULD be offered 100%. If I stole $100 dollars from you, would you think it just that, when pressed, I returned only $25 and spent the rest on myself?

Is that justice?

Apparently, because I'm bigger and tougher than you and it was only the neighbours peer pressure that forced me to give the $25 back, is ok by you because I'm bigger and tougher, so you have to settle for whatever I give you?

Post removed to enable response.

Your second paragraph is in essence what many are saying. Ongoing resistance is useless, be pragmatic, you've lost, what's the point in more people dying, rebuild with what you have and we will provide assistance - surrender for the common good etc...

Edited August 17, 2014 by simple1

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory and posts with personal remarks directed at other posters have been removed along with replies.

[Seastallion]

And they never will be. They turned that deal down 66 years ago and Israel is not going back to such insecure borders. Actions have consequences and the Palestinians are going to pay for the stupid decisions that they have made over and over again. Beggars can't be choosers.

There are reasonable arguments to say that Palestine SHOULD be offered 100%. If I stole $100 dollars from you, would you think it just that, when pressed, I returned only $25 and spent the rest on myself?

Is that justice?

Apparently, because I'm bigger and tougher than you and it was only the neighbours peer pressure that forced me to give the $25 back, is ok by you because I'm bigger and tougher, so you have to settle for whatever I give you?

Post removed to enable response.

Your second paragraph is in essence what many are saying. Ongoing resistance is useless, be pragmatic, you've lost, what's the point in more people dying, rebuild with what you have and we will provide assistance - surrender for the common good etc...

Indeed, but where's the justice? The OP suggests some compromise from the Palestinians but not total capitulation. They have a valid argument to not settle for just what they have now.

And if the Palestinians were to concede now, what's to stop Israel continuing to further spread it's settlements and push Palestinians out into the desert?

[CBR250]

Indeed, but where's the justice? The OP suggests some compromise from the Palestinians but not total capitulation. They have a valid argument to not settle for just what they have now.

And if the Palestinians were to concede now, what's to stop Israel continuing to further spread it's settlements and push Palestinians out into the desert?

Netanyahu and most of his predecessors have made it very clear that they don't want peace. Oh sure, every so often they get rounded up the US to attend some peace talks. Then they make impossible demands or refuse to talk or just generally spit the dummy. Their foot dragging over peace enables them to keep stealing more and more land on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem until they own it all. This is the real agenda, the historical "eretz Israel" supposedly promised to the Jews by a supernatural being.

It isn't even clear what Palestine could do even if it did want to concede. If it surrenders to every Israeli demand, does that then mean that Israel will recognise Palestinian borders - the 2 state solution? (Note of course that Palestine would be about the size of a shoebox if it had conceded to all demands).

Senior Israeli politicians are on record as saying that there is no such thing as Palestinian people - just Arabs who should all move to Jordan or Lebanon or Syria or.... talk about not recognising existence!

[ABCer]

Actually the arguments used here are amusing. Not the topic.

Jews stole the land from Arabs - amusing.

Arabs of Palestine are oppressed - amusing.

Israelis are Nazis - amusing.

Islam will march united against Israel and the West - amusing.

Iran building 'super modern weapons' - amusing.

Gaza needs free unrestricted supplies lines - amusing.

IDF deliberately kill innocent civilians and children - amusing.

Israel must talk to HAMAS - amusing.

Etc., etc., etc.

There is one argument though which has been overlooked here in deciding for Israel what it must do.

The argument is concerning the imbalance of the numbers of victims on each side.

Pro-Israelis lament about 66-67 Israelis dead! Anti-Israelis scream about 1,300-1,400 Gaza Arabs dead!

This represents at the moment an average of about 20 'Palestinians' for one Israeli.

Now if you take the ratio of numbers of hostile Arabs around Israel and the number of Israelis - the ratio is about the same - 300,000,000 to 6,000,000.

Forgive me for being cold and calculating but I think

a) Israelis are being short changes or far too generous.

When exchanging their 1 body for about 1000 terrorists they are being plainly screwed.

And finally, if Arabs of Gaza or HAMAS establish a 'going rate' of 1000 for 1 - why are they and the rest of Western Democracies not happy with the victims score in this stupid conflict?

Edited August 17, 2014 by ABCer

[goatfarmer]

"...but Hamas' ability to oppose an all-Arab army with the backing of the Arab League and perhaps even a Security Council resolution would be very small."

This is the question. Why should Hamas accept an all-Arab army invading them any more than they accept the IDF?

[Seastallion]

"...but Hamas' ability to oppose an all-Arab army with the backing of the Arab League and perhaps even a Security Council resolution would be very small."

This is the question. Why should Hamas accept an all-Arab army invading them any more than they accept the IDF?

Because an all Arab army would not have an agenda of cold calculated annihilation as opposed to the IDF agenda, an all Arab army would go to great lengths to not inflict collateral damage as opposed to a careless, even deliberate, attitude towards inflicting civilian deaths of the IDF, and an Arab army would not be invaders but peace-keepers.

Fairly obvious.

[Steely Dan]

"...but Hamas' ability to oppose an all-Arab army with the backing of the Arab League and perhaps even a Security Council resolution would be very small."

This is the question. Why should Hamas accept an all-Arab army invading them any more than they accept the IDF?

Because an all Arab army would not have an agenda of cold calculated annihilation as opposed to the IDF agenda, an all Arab army would go to great lengths to not inflict collateral damage as opposed to a careless, even deliberate, attitude towards inflicting civilian deaths of the IDF, and an Arab army would not be invaders but peace-keepers.

Fairly obvious.

Indeed Arab armies are well known for their moderation and careful targetting to avoid civilian casualties. I think we have another belter for the list.

[MaxYakov]

Israel must stop believing that it can survive on the land of Palestine which it robbed from the Palestinian people. It cannot! Just look at the map. Does anyone think that the traitors who now rule Arab countries will be there for ever? No, sooner or later the Muslims would rise up, throw their leaders to the dogs, tell the Islam-hating West to take a hike and march towards Jerusesalm with ultra modern weapons like what Iran is now buiding and send the Zionists packing to wherever they came from.

The Hamas Charter (1988) - The Jerusalem Fund Enjoy!

[simple1]

In the context of the OP:

Attack on Gaza by Saudi Royal Appointment

Why do Saudi Arabia and Israel make such comfortable bedfellows?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-hearst/attack-on-gaza-by-saudi-r_b_5603735.html

[A1Str8]

Israel must do some bioenergetic healing on itself in order to be able to stop acting lame.

[Seastallion]

Actually the arguments used here are amusing. Not the topic.

Jews stole the land from Arabs - amusing.

Arabs of Palestine are oppressed - amusing.

Israelis are Nazis - amusing.

Islam will march united against Israel and the West - amusing.

Iran building 'super modern weapons' - amusing.

Gaza needs free unrestricted supplies lines - amusing.

IDF deliberately kill innocent civilians and children - amusing.

Israel must talk to HAMAS - amusing.

Etc., etc., etc.

There is one argument though which has been overlooked here in deciding for Israel what it must do.

The argument is concerning the imbalance of the numbers of victims on each side.

Pro-Israelis lament about 66-67 Israelis dead! Anti-Israelis scream about 1,300-1,400 Gaza Arabs dead!

This represents at the moment an average of about 20 'Palestinians' for one Israeli.

Now if you take the ratio of numbers of hostile Arabs around Israel and the number of Israelis - the ratio is about the same - 300,000,000 to 6,000,000.

Forgive me for being cold and calculating but I think

a) Israelis are being short changes or far too generous.

When exchanging their 1 body for about 1000 terrorists they are being plainly screwed.

And finally, if Arabs of Gaza or HAMAS establish a 'going rate' of 1000 for 1 - why are they and the rest of Western Democracies not happy with the victims score in this stupid conflict?

Your entire post and sophistry would be amusing if it didn't concern the lives of thousands of people.

[7by7]

Actions have consequences and the Palestinians are going to pay for the stupid decisions that they have made over and over again.

I said earlier that I wondered whether Israel wants peace or revenge; obviously some of their supporters definitely want the latter.

If the Israeli government has any sympathy with that then there never will be peace until they have killed every single Palestinian.

I really, really hope, and want to believe, that this is not what they are considering to be their final solution; that they are prepared to talk to the Palestinians, including Hamas, and that extreme, hate filled voices which declaim statements such as the above rant are ignored by those with the power to bring about a peaceful solution.

[Steely Dan]

In the context of the OP:

Attack on Gaza by Saudi Royal Appointment

Why do Saudi Arabia and Israel make such comfortable bedfellows?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-hearst/attack-on-gaza-by-saudi-r_b_5603735.html

Quite an interesting read, some of it I would agree on. Where I believe it falls apart is characterizing the U.S as onside with the Israeli-Egyptian-Saudi group. The Obama administration was instrumental in the enabling of the Muslim brotherhood and deposing of Mubarak, which both the Israelis and Saudis were furious about. When the Muslim brotherhood were deposed in Egypt it was Saudi Arabia who promised to make up for any loss of U.S aid to Egypt. Juxtapose all this with Turkey's recent support for Hamas and Qatar, who funded a $2 billion development of terror tunnels by Hamas. The U.S as a whole May be supportive of Israel but Obama and his appointees certainly are not.

The U.S role in facilitating (unwittingly of otherwise) the rise of Islamism during the Arab spring has also empowered Hamas, the choice ahead is clear, Arab states holding a boot on the throat of Islamic extremists, or a contagion of ISIS style groups practicing genocide wherever they are able. I note that the Palestinian authority have been on record as being furious that the Obama administration have sidelined them in favour of Hamas, would it not be ironic if some kind of peace accord happened by way of a blowback against current U.S foreign policy.

Edit: Link added to illustrate U.S alignment with Qatar and Turkey.

http://www.israelusa.net/obama-administration-delays-arms-shipments-to-israel-as-it-confirms-advanced-arms-sales-to-turkey-and-qatar/

Edited August 17, 2014 by Steely Dan

[joepublic]

. An anti-Semitic person used to be someone that hates jews, now it is someone that jews hate.

Beautifully put - so much truth in this line!

[Jingthing]

. An anti-Semitic person used to be someone that hates jews, now it is someone that jews hate.

Beautifully put - so much truth in this line!

Doesn't mean that antisemites don't exist. We've seen plenty of very obvious ones posting on this very forum. No point in denial. Again, criticizing Israeli policies of course isn't the same thing as antisemitism, but the fact remains many demonizers of Israel are indeed and obviously tainted by antisemitism.

The quote BTW is completely ridiculous.

Antisemitism is ancient ... nothing new in it. It would be natural always for Jews to hate antisemites just as American black people naturally hate racist rednecks. Today we have Hamas (and the blatant Hamas cheerleaders) who are openly antisemitic and of course Jews hate them ... why wouldn't they?

Edited August 17, 2014 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

. An anti-Semitic person used to be someone that hates jews, now it is someone that jews hate.

Beautifully put - so much truth in this line!

Your sound bite falls apart with the use of the words 'Jews hate', which by implication means all Jews. You could have at least exempt the Uncle Toms who as a reward could be last against the wall, before the leftists of course.

[Jingthing]

. An anti-Semitic person used to be someone that hates jews, now it is someone that jews hate.

Beautifully put - so much truth in this line!

Your sound bite falls apart with the use of the words 'Jews hate', which by implication means all Jews. You could have at least exempt the Uncle Toms who as a reward could be last against the wall, before the leftists of course.

Self hating Jews ... they do exist.

[forumuser10]

Jews are Jews and Nazis are Nazis .

But Jews are not above all critizism !

Not everybody who dares to critic Israel is automatically an "Antisemit " !

The facts prove , I think , that Israelis are definitely not better than the rest of the world , so there should be the basic right of " Freedom of Speech " and Critizism as long as it is based on facts !

The fact is, no other "developed" Western nation would be allowed to do what Israel is doing.

We could ask ourselves, why is that?

I know the answer, and I am sure many of you do too.

[goatfarmer]

Jews are Jews and Nazis are Nazis .

But Jews are not above all critizism !

Not everybody who dares to critic Israel is automatically an "Antisemit " !

The facts prove , I think , that Israelis are definitely not better than the rest of the world , so there should be the basic right of " Freedom of Speech " and Critizism as long as it is based on facts !

The fact is, no other "developed" Western nation would be allowed to do what Israel is doing.

We could ask ourselves, why is that?

I know the answer, and I am sure many of you do too.

Britain did it. The US did it. Can't think of a major western power that hasn't done 'what Israel is doing'.

[7by7]

The fact is, no other "developed" Western nation would be allowed to do what Israel is doing.

If any other "developed" Western nation was having thousands of rockets shot them by terrorists, they would be doing exactly what Israel has been doing, but they would not hold back. They would put a stop to it permanently. There is no reason why Israel should have to put up with this hateful behavior. No one else would.

One example of another Western nations being attacked by terrorists with very similar aims to Hamas has been raised before.

That nation did not react in the same way as Israel, and had they done so they would have been rightly condemned in the same way as Israel now is.

Instead, eventually, that nations government agreed to sit down and talk to the terrorists without any preconditions.

As a result, there is now peace.

As discussion of this has been previously ruled off topic, that is as far as I can go on the mater; but Israel could and should learn from that, and similar, examples.