What Israel must do now

[dr_lucas]

I am sure Ulysses and his right wing extremists friends will cry anti-semitism over this...555555555555......

Don't worry. I will just call stupidity instead. Most Israeli citizens were born there and no one can make them move.

No-one can make them move, but they have done a pretty good job of making the Palestinians move. from the mouth of your founding father Ben Gurion..

http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

Repeat spamming of the same lie I see. Actually you are referring to one lie to protect the original then relayed by you in a demented circle jerk.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=2219

Not to mention that his first Ben Gurion "quote" and his last Ben Gurion "quote" contradict each other.

[dexterm]

I am sure Ulysses and his right wing extremists friends will cry anti-semitism over this...555555555555......

Don't worry. I will just call stupidity instead. Most Israeli citizens were born there and no one can make them move.

No-one can make them move, but they have done a pretty good job of making the Palestinians move. from the mouth of your founding father Ben Gurion..

http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

One thing I don't get is why anti-Israelis keep choosing manufacturing facts and keep on posting blatant lies to support their biased opinions.

Biased opinions are one thing, but manufacturing facts? That's another thing entirely.

The real Ben Gurion quote was:

"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

I won't even bother with the rest of your quotes, given that this was so easily - debunked.

Interesting. Quotes you don't like ... you claim are fake, and others you don't like you just ignore. Nothing new there then.

[Ulysses G.]

We prove they are fake, but you keep posting them.

[dr_lucas]

Don't worry. I will just call stupidity instead. Most Israeli citizens were born there and no one can make them move.

No-one can make them move, but they have done a pretty good job of making the Palestinians move. from the mouth of your founding father Ben Gurion..

http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

One thing I don't get is why anti-Israelis keep choosing manufacturing facts and keep on posting blatant lies to support their biased opinions.

Biased opinions are one thing, but manufacturing facts? That's another thing entirely.

The real Ben Gurion quote was:

"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

I won't even bother with the rest of your quotes, given that this was so easily - debunked.

Interesting. Quotes you don't like ... you claim are fake, and others you don't like you just ignore. Nothing new there then.

Didn't like? Oh, no, I really liked the amusing quotes and I didn't just claim it is fake, me and others here posted clear proof of it being one more fake quote you made. Nothing new there then. Indeed.

[Seastallion]

I am sure Ulysses and his right wing extremists friends will cry anti-semitism over this...555555555555......

Don't worry. I will just call stupidity instead. Most Israeli citizens were born there and no one can make them move.

No-one can make them move, but they have done a pretty good job of making the Palestinians move. from the mouth of your founding father Ben Gurion..

http://monabaker.com/quotes.htm

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

Repeat spamming of the same lie I see. Actually you are referring to one lie to protect the original then relayed by you in a demented circle jerk.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=2219

The article you provide as "proof" of a lie asserts "None of the words in the sentence were ever written or spoken by Ben-Gurion, so no arrangement of quotation marks would yield an accurate quote. " How can CAMERA possibly know that without having a record of every word Ben Gurion ever said or wrote? They do not, and they can not. I'm not being pedantic here or trying to say who is correct and who is wrong, but any journalistic organisation that purports to be seeking and publishing truth, ought to refrain from absolute statements that they can not prove. That alone casts them into a partisan and unprofessional light in my eyes.

What IS interesting, and not contested, is Ben Gurion's words here, " And if we will have to use force, not for the sake of evicting the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but rather in order to secure the right that belongs to us to settle there, force will be available to us. ". So a group of European Zionists were claiming the land as their right. THAT is very telling, and THAT is why there is conflict today; A bunch of people thought they had a right to land that other people were already living on. ...and were willing to use force to ensure that (perceived) right.

[Seastallion]

We prove they are fake, but you keep posting them.

You "prove" with partisan articles and misleading statistics. Hardly proof.

[Ulysses G.]

Like the Gallup Polling Company - very "partisan".

[dexterm]

We prove they are fake, but you keep posting them.

Nothing of the kind. I prefer the Israeli Jewish historian Benny Morris to your Zionist revisionist. No mention about the other quotes I see.

There are lots more where that came from too, which I will intersperse from time to time to debunk your Zionist myths as they arise.

Got to go..work to do. Hasta la vista.

[Seastallion]

Like the Gallup Polling Company - very "partisan".

Indeed they are...glad to see you now accept my proof of their bias. Well done. You're getting there. Pity you weren't honourable enough to apologise for your false accusation and flame that got deleted.

[Ulysses G.]

The article you provide as "proof" of a lie asserts "None of the words in the sentence were ever written or spoken by Ben-Gurion, so no arrangement of quotation marks would yield an accurate quote. " How can CAMERA possibly know that without having a record of every word Ben Gurion ever said or wrote?

Simple. The quote did not appear in any of the sources that Pappé cited in this book, so it was obviously a lie. There is no need to "have a record" of every word Ben Gurion ever said or wrote.

Please stop the pettifogging and silly condemnations of credible sources. You are fooling no one.

[Seastallion]

The article you provide as "proof" of a lie asserts "None of the words in the sentence were ever written or spoken by Ben-Gurion, so no arrangement of quotation marks would yield an accurate quote. " How can CAMERA possibly know that without having a record of every word Ben Gurion ever said or wrote?

Simple. The quote did not appear in any of the sources that Pappé cited in this book, so it was obviously a lie. There is no need to "have a record" of every word Ben Gurion ever said or wrote.

Please stop the pettifogging and silly condemnations of credible sources. You are fooling no one.

Tut tut tut.... I do wish your comprehension skills were better, it would make debating so much easier.

CAMERA stated categorically that Ben Gurion "..never wrote or said those words...". For CAMERA to know that Ben Gurion never wrote or said those words, they would need a record of every word he ever wrote or said. It's very simple, really.

IF CAMERA had said "There is no record...", that would be another matter. But they didn't, instead they chose to make an absolute statement, as a fact, that they can not possibly verify. Hence their partisanship. They are not credible.

Please get with the play and keep up.

[Ulysses G.]

Back to nit-picking. It's a proven lie. The quote did not appear in any of the sources that Pappé cited in this book. All the extraneous hair-splitting does not help your case.

[goatfarmer]

You have a very selective memory of UN resolutions, UG, and neglect to mention the fact that Israel has ignored every UN resolution since then. Very convenient.

Nor do you mention that the 20^th Zionist Congress rejected the earlier Peel Commission Plan of 1937 (when the Jewish population of Palestine was only 27%), even though Jews would have been given some of the most fertile land in the Galilee valley and more of the coastal strip than in the later UN plan, because the areas allocated to the "Jewish state" were "too small". The Zionists wanted more even then and they have never stopped wanting more.

But the most damning part of that rejection comes from Ben Gurion himself.

"Had partition been carried out, the history of our people would have been different and six million Jews in Europe would not have been killed---most of them would be in Israel" (“One Palestine, Complete: Jews and Arabs Under the British Mandate” by Tom Segev p. 414).

... all because of Zionist greed. Disgusting.

There are indeed rumours that Ben Gurion had territorial ambitions beyond the allocation of the Peel Commission and even the November 29th UN agreement. It is even plausible that he welcomed the Palestinian's refusal to cooperate with the process and the ensuing civil war. But name-calling and feeling 'disgust' over history does not promote a clear understanding of history or provide a basis for suggesting solutions to the current mess, which is what this topic is about.

Rumours? Didn't know rumors promote a clear understanding of history or provide a basis for suggesting solutions to the current mess.

<snip>

No one is suggesting that they do. I was addressing tone, not substance.

If the bickering and intransigence exhibited in this debate by "pro" and "anti" isreal camps is a reflection of the real world antagonisms I would suggest that there is no solution to the problem. Leave them to it.

[7by7]

Some blocks of quotes removed to comply with forum software.

Question dodged (by Ulysses G); as always.

You should be proud, imitation is the highest form of flattery.

Immitation? In what way? I have always tried to answer all questions put to me.

That you and your cohorts don't like the answers and so pretend those answers don't exist is your problem, not mine.

I may have missed the question you asked UG, what was it?

I have posted it several times; but will repeat it for you.

First, the premise:-

Based on the lessons which can be taken from the Northern Irish peace process, the Israeli government, I believe, should:

1) Say they will change the discriminatory Israeli nationality laws which make non Jewish Israelis second class citizens.

2) Whilst reserving the right of IDF units to defend themselves if directly attacked, declare that they will maintain the current ceasefire/truce indefinitely; even if provoked.

3) Offer to enter into direct talks with Hamas and other Palestinian representatives without any preconditions.

The ball will then be very firmly in Hamas' court, and if they refuse such an offer of talks and/or try and provoke Israel by breaking the truce, then they are obviously to be condemned.

If Hamas refuse to enter into talks; if Hamas try to provoke Israel by breaking the truce; if no agreement can be reached; Israel have lost nothing.

But if Hamas agree to talks and agreement can be reached then both sides will have peace, at least for the foreseeable future.

So, the question is; what have Israel got to lose by following this course?

[goatfarmer]

Hamas ... it's not just for Gaza anymore.

Based on this information, what Israel MUST continue to do is to further weaken HAMAS.

Hamas in West Bank 'planned to topple Palestinian Authority

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Massive-Hamas-infrastructure-in-West-Bank-planned-to-topple-the-Palestinian-Authority-371409

I have absolutely no problem with Hamas being weakened, depending on how it is done. Murdering children is not a way I support. Tell us why the OP strategy to weaken Hamas won't work.

Because it assumes that Hamas will allow itself to be sidelined by and Arab league occupation and that the Arabs are unified, which they are not.

[Steely Dan]

Hamas look like they have blown the Palestinian unity government apart with a coup plot against the Palestinian authority. This makes Hamas even more Isolated, and Israel will I believe have Western backing if they stick to the disarming of Hamas being a non negotiable condition for any lasting ceasefire.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5175/freezing_hamas_out_of_gaza_is_the_only_hope_for_its_future

As the article states Israel's Arab neighbors realize a stand must be made against extremist Muslim dogma so are broadly supportive of Israel's actions. It's funny what can be seen clearly from those at the sharp end seems invisible to middle class Western leftists looking on from the comfort of their own armchairs.

[7by7]

Like the Gallup Polling Company - very "partisan".

Anyone who knows anything about the opinion polling industry knows that the results you get depends very much on who you ask and, more importantly, what you ask and the way you ask it.

This is, of course, determined by the people who commission the poll, not the polling company themselves.

[Ulysses G.]

Offer to enter into direct talks with Hamas and other Palestinian representatives without any preconditions.

It has already been pointed out to you numerous times, with evidence, that there were preconditions set for the Northern Ireland talks. Just pretending like it didn't happen. does not help your credibility.

[7by7]

Offer to enter into direct talks with Hamas and other Palestinian representatives without any preconditions.

It has already been pointed out to you numerous times, with evidence, that there were preconditions set for the Northern Ireland talks. Just pretending like it didn't happen. does not help your credibility.

I have already dealt with that; you didn't like the answer so choose to ignore it.

Instead of dodging my question; why wont you answer it?

Doing so may raise your credibility above the level of near absolute zero where it currently rests.

[Ulysses G.]

Like the Gallup Polling Company - very "partisan".

Anyone who knows anything about the opinion polling industry knows that the results you get depends very much on who you ask and, more importantly, what you ask and the way you ask it.

Pretty much every poll, by every reputable company have all said that Americans support Israel far more than the Palestinians. Do the Jews control all the polling companies on the planet as well as the entire world media?

[7by7]

Where have I suggested such a thing?

I simply showed how the results of opinion polls cannot be taken as absolute truth.

Your continuing attempts to either ignore or label as anti Semitic all the arguments you have no answer for speaks volumes.

[Ulysses G.]

Instead of dodging my question; why wont you answer it?

I already told you where to find my answer, in the same link that proves that there were preconditions set for the Northern Ireland talks. Kill two birds with one stone.

[Seastallion]

Back to nit-picking. It's a proven lie. The quote did not appear in any of the sources that Pappé cited in this book. All the extraneous hair-splitting does not help your case.

It is not splitting hairs at all. If they hadn't said "He never.... said those words". they could be excused for referring only to the contentious letter. But the fact is they DID say Ben Gurion "never wrote OR SAID those words", ie not talking just about the letter, which is a complete departure from known facts.

Which makes CAMERA partisan or unprofessional...either way, not credible.

And thus the CAMERA quote does not refute anything said here and makes your accusation of "lies", once again, a false accusation.

I'm still waiting for your apology for your previous proven false accusation of lying.

Stop trying to belittle valid and significant arguments as "nitpicking", "pettifogging:" or "hair splitting" just because you have no substantial response. I am sure even your co-apologists must be embarrassed for your side by your failures. Their "likes" are only hollow cheerleading rah rah.

[7by7]

Instead of dodging my question; why wont you answer it?

I already told you where to find my answer, in the same link that proves that there were preconditions set for the Northern Ireland talks. Kill two birds with one stone.

Dodge, dodge, dodge.

There is no point in attempting dialogue with you if you wont answer fundamental questions and ignore the answers given to your questions.

[Seastallion]

Like the Gallup Polling Company - very "partisan".

Anyone who knows anything about the opinion polling industry knows that the results you get depends very much on who you ask and, more importantly, what you ask and the way you ask it.

Pretty much every poll, by every reputable company have all said that Americans support Israel far more than the Palestinians. Do the Jews control all the polling companies on the planet as well as the entire world media?

Tut tut tut once again...the recent poll you posted showed what Americans believed other Americans felt, not what they themselves felt. Big number, 57%!!!! but it meant nothing. I pointed that out explicitly. Which means nothing in the context of this thread.

The other poll you posted I proved was partisan...again, pointless statistics.

Tut tut tut. You're letting the side down badly.

[Scott]

This topic has now passed it's use-by date.

//Closed//