The Overcrowded BTS

[Benowa]

Can someone tell me why the BTS after over 10 years of service still only runs 4 carriages in a train. The platforms are made for 6 carriages, and I thought they had a few drivers "in training" to initiate 6 carriages. Maybe they failed the test and the idea was shelved....

[Crossy]

It's only relatively recently they've added the 4th car to the Siemens trains.

[David48]

Dear OP ... read this thread ... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/369458-airport-rail-link-again-sorry/#entry3644748

It's only 23 pages in length.

It will explain it all for you.

[frollywolly]

How much training would they need for a driver if adding a couple of carriages to a train?

Plonk em on the end and press the go forward button/lever. Can't be too hard. Few hours and away they go

Could be a case of not enough carriages. That would make more sense.

[tx22cb]

Some days the BTS trains are packed during the evening rush hour, so many passengers prefer to wait for 3 or 4 trains to get on.

But "overcrowded" is a relative concept.

Compared to the Tokyo trains, even the "full" Bangkok ones seem pretty empty, and the Japanese engineers would say that we are under-utilising the assets.

[up-country_sinclair]

Yes the BTS is crowded, but it's still better than dealing with the traffic jams below.

[brewsterbudgen]

Is any city metro/underground/skytrain not crowded during rush hour? At least most behave in a civilised way on the BTS!

[dagobert]

It's a good perv allso ₩@₩.

[geronimo]

It's a good perv allso ₩@₩.

There always has to be one eh!

[muffy]

They should run more times , problem solved .

[Zeegator]

They should run more times , problem solved .

How would they safely run trains more frequently than than already do, ie a train every 2 or 3 minutes currently, in the rush hour,

[Zeegator]

How much training would they need for a driver if adding a couple of carriages to a train?

Plonk em on the end and press the go forward button/lever. Can't be too hard. Few hours and away they go

Could be a case of not enough carriages. That would make more sense.

Only a plonker would "plonk em on the end", that would mean one of the driver's cabs would then be in the middle of the train.

[TVeronica]

Get up more earlier, job done

[SoiBiker]

Overcrowded?

I'm guessing you haven't been on the tube at rush hour.

[Benowa]

Thank you gentlemen for your responses. Most have missed the point. Yes, I said the BTS was overcrowded at rush hour but this could be quickly alleviated if the additional 2 carriages were put into service. My question was why has this not been done, not a discussion on the meaning of overcrowded and other cities around the world that are more crowded.

And yes, I have been on the tube (I guess you mean London) at rush hour but only once. I'm not a masochist. But I haven't been on the trains in Mumbai, perhaps I should you suggest to better understand overcrowded?

[David48]

Thank you gentlemen for your responses. Most have missed the point. Yes, I said the BTS was overcrowded at rush hour but this could be quickly alleviated if the additional 2 carriages were put into service. My question was why has this not been done, not a discussion on the meaning of overcrowded and other cities around the world that are more crowded.

And yes, I have been on the tube (I guess you mean London) at rush hour but only once. I'm not a masochist. But I haven't been on the trains in Mumbai, perhaps I should you suggest to better understand overcrowded?

Let's try to lead the horse to water again ...

also adding this one ... the-new-skytrain ... that one is a mere snip @ 13 pages long.

Dear OP ... read this thread ... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/369458-airport-rail-link-again-sorry/#entry3644748

It's only 23 pages in length.

It will explain it all for you.

[David48]

What is the quality of the information you get on these two threads?

Purple Line update:

The Taopoon interchange station construction is coming along nicely (pics credits to Khun Chainarai on SSC).

(You can view Crossy's pics of the platform level from last Dec, #274, pg11)

Street level looking south (junction of Phracharat rd)

Blue Line station (W-E) is lower level, Purple line(N-S) station is upper level

And here is a video of other stations along the line, including Klong Bang Phai Station at the other end of the line where the Depot is also located

You can read back to the posts on the previous page regarding when the Purple Line may open.

So no OP ... it's not just as simple as adding two carriages to the existing engines ...

.

[Benowa]

"Let's try to lead the horse to water again ... "

Who's talking about the airport train? Not me.

Guess I"ll have to become a member of the "Metro Train Lover Club" to understand everything about the Taopoon interchange station; the Blue Line, the Purple Line, Klong Bang Phia station at the other end of the line where the Depot is located, the Bang Yai Bang Sue section ...

Ask a simple question ... never again.

[David48]

"Let's try to lead the horse to water again ... "

Who's talking about the airport train? Not me.

Guess I"ll have to become a member of the "Metro Train Lover Club" to understand everything about the Taopoon interchange station; the Blue Line, the Purple Line, Klong Bang Phia station at the other end of the line where the Depot is located, the Bang Yai Bang Sue section ...

Ask a simple question ... never again.

No problem ... happy to assist (since the question means so much to you that you can be bothered or too lazy to read the two long standing threads on this BTS related question).

You asked essentially ... "Can someone tell me why the BTS ... only runs 4 carriages in a train. The platforms are made for 6 carriages"

The easy answer ... is because they can't.

Simples ...

.

[Hal65]

My guess is that it's not a simple economic matter. They probably don't want to raise fares to compensate for the increased costs.

[bkkjames]

"Let's try to lead the horse to water again ... "

Who's talking about the airport train? Not me.

Guess I"ll have to become a member of the "Metro Train Lover Club" to understand everything about the Taopoon interchange station; the Blue Line, the Purple Line, Klong Bang Phia station at the other end of the line where the Depot is located, the Bang Yai Bang Sue section ...

Ask a simple question ... never again.

No problem ... happy to assist (since the question means so much to you that you can be bothered or too lazy to read the two long standing threads on this BTS related question).

You asked essentially ... "Can someone tell me why the BTS ... only runs 4 carriages in a train. The platforms are made for 6 carriages"

The easy answer ... is because they can't.

Simples ...

.

ok I will bite. Why can't they - no rolling stock? No I am not going to read 23 pages on the subject either lol

[David48]

James ... believe it or not, it's a really complicated question and the OP is desiring a simple answer.

I'm not the expert, but the guy quoted above and below has his finger on the pulse.

You have a combination of ageing rolling stock, differing control systems, differing rolling stock (Sukhumvit and Silom Lines).

Then you have the maintenance issues as highlighted below ...

Max speeds on the ARL are being reduced to 120km/h from 160 km/h due to the major overhaul that needs to be undertaken on all of the rolling stock and the fact that there is still a spare parts shortage. The major overhaul that is being progressively undertaken on all of the stock will replace brake parts, boogies, shock absorbers and other parts.

The rolling stock is past 1 million km mark where the first major overhaul is recommended by Siemens. These figures from the end of May show the kms of each train;

1. City Line 1: 1,198,052 km

2. City Line 2: 1,168,783 km
3. City Line 3: 1,184,114 km
4. City Line 4: 1,137,118 km
5. City Line 5: 1,179,219 km
6. Express Line 1: 1,265,818 km
7. Express Line 2: 468,232 km
8. Express Line 3: 1,275,792 km
9. Express Line 4: 1,239,796 km

If the the overhauls are not completed prior to rolling stock reaching the 1.32m km mark, then services may have to be reduced further while extra rolling stock is taken out of service due to the risk of major damage to the rolling stock. Each overhaul should take between 4-6 weeks.

http://www.prachachat.net/news_detail.php?newsid=1407509648

In other news, the connection of the City Line and Express Line tracks is finally closer to starting after the money (300m baht) was allocated back in 2012 . As previously stated, rectifying this design flaw will allow one Express service with a stop at Makkasan.

[planr]

Two reasons.

1) Ordering additional rolling stock typically has about a 2-year lead time, so much planning must be done in advance... when will an operator actually "need" to add additional rolling stock based on passenger loads, desired load factor, revenue per passenger, etc.?

2) Following the foregoing, the BTS has not reached the point (yet) where it really needs to add carriages as they are apparently happy with the existing ridership / revenue mix.

Some riders may dislike existing "overcrowding," but you cannot run a profitable system with empty trains, hence no rush to add carriages. As both the BTS and MRT are run by publicly listed companies, strategic planning decisions will almost always have to take shareholders "welfare" into account. Folks should not confuse the fact that while the BTS and MRT are public transit, they are not a public good.

[bobobo]

Been here for a couple of weeks now looking for a condo to rent ( not an easy task, it's a jungle out there ). I have usually travelled during late morning early evening. Very convenient and cheap and clean.Not so many people. I'm very satisfied with the BTS. Suppose the OP talking about the rush hour ??

[namdocmai]

Well if they can't add more carriages then maybe they can add a whole extra train in the peak hours?? Between 5 and 7 pm there is no way you will get a normal place in the skytrain because they are all jampacked and have lines of people waiting.

For claustrofobic people or in case of spreadable diseases this is not a proper way to transport people, in Europe even pigs/chickens are not allowed to be transported like that.

Also try buying a skytrain ticket in peak hour at Siam Paragon bts, there are superlong lines for the ticketmachines. Very annoying and that's only on the most hi-so stop of the whole skytrain.

But i m still very happy with the skytrain and also amazed that is still looks so perfect after all those years.

[Lakegeneve]

Well if they can't add more carriages then maybe they can add a whole extra train in the peak hours?? Between 5 and 7 pm there is no way you will get a normal place in the skytrain because they are all jampacked and have lines of people waiting.

For claustrofobic people or in case of spreadable diseases this is not a proper way to transport people, in Europe even pigs/chickens are not allowed to be transported like that.

Also try buying a skytrain ticket in peak hour at Siam Paragon bts, there are superlong lines for the ticketmachines. Very annoying and that's only on the most hi-so stop of the whole skytrain.

But i m still very happy with the skytrain and also amazed that is still looks so perfect after all those years.

The peak headways on the Suk line are 2:40m and 2:20m. You probably wouldn't want to increase the headway much further than say 2:10m in the near future given the dwell/boarding times at stations but the installation of the platform screen doors will help this process in time. Only a few lines in the world such as in Hong Kong & Tokyo can do 1:30min (90sec) peak headways ............

I'm not sure what a "normal place in the skytrain" is.....

On the rolling stock front, the BTSC is probably about 2 years behind where it should be given the pax growth in my view. We should have already moved to 5 car operations for peak hour.

However, as planr correctly points out this is a commercial decision by a private company which in the past did not have sufficient funds to purchase rolling stock to meet pax growth demand. It should be noted that the 3 batches of new rolling stock have all been delivered later than initially scheduled.

(On the Hi-so ref, strictly speaking Hi-So don't do any form of public transport but I understand what you were attempting to express. The BTS is very much built for the middle class in all respects, esp the pricing.) Again another commercial decision, extra entry gates vs loss of commercial revenue. being Thailand the obvious H&S aspect is ignored and only when some poor person faints and dies will the issue of peak hr overcrowding due to limited gates and poor crowd flow patterns, be addressed.

For get overcrowding now, imagine the interchange stations dealing with twice the pax numbers in 10 yrs time once there is more of a network. (There are plans to expand some stations but it will be done later than it should)

The BTSC currently has

35 4 car siemens trains

17 4 car CNR trains (EMU - which have a few problems

I recently updated the wiki page to reflect the deliveries for those that really want to know the details, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BTS_Skytrain

If the BTSC wins the contract to run the bearing to paknam extension (due to open in 2016) I believe that they have said that they will need another 10, 4 car sets of rolling stock.

I wrote an overview of rolling stock in Nov last year which may have some info of interest to some;

A Rolling Stock Update

5 New Bts sets have arrived

The 5 new CNR 4 car sets of rolling stock arrived last week. They were ordered by the BTSC for the new Bang Wah ext which will open on 5 Dec as scheduled. Testing of the ext is currently underway .

However, I doubt that they will be used on that line as all the previous 7 CNR 4 car sets seem to be exclusively operating on the Sukhumvit line due to the previous sporadic, compatibility problems with the Silom line.

Purple line getting Japanese rolling stock

The BMCL having won the 30 yr concession contract in Sept for the Purple Line which stipulates that 63 cars have to be provided for the line has according to weekend reports, decided to order Japanese stock (though exactly what is unclear for now), http://www.thaivisa....port/?p=6998860. This will be the first Japanese rolling stock for Bangkoks metro lines.

Future needs

On general rolling stock, the MRTA estimates it will need 437 cars for the heavy rail lines (Purple, Blue, Orange, BTS) and around 300 cars for the monorail lines (Pink &Yellow) - Brown or Grey not in that figure it seems.

The breakdown for heavy rail lines currently under construction;

Purple line: 63 cars - 21, 3 car sets,

Blue Line: 84 cars - 21, 4 car sets,

BTS Suk line ext to SP: - 40 cars - 10, 4 car sets

The previous estimate for the whole 300km+ (not including SRT Red suburban lines) planned future network by 2020 was 800 cars . (Obviously, these figures will increase as more exts and line open and actual orders will be contingent upon the operator).You can see why some train manufacturers such as Siemens & Alstom have been contemplating establishing a production facility in Thailand.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/406991-the-new-skytrain/page-10

[teatree]

Two reasons.

1) Ordering additional rolling stock typically has about a 2-year lead time, so much planning must be done in advance... when will an operator actually "need" to add additional rolling stock based on passenger loads, desired load factor, revenue per passenger, etc.?

2) Following the foregoing, the BTS has not reached the point (yet) where it really needs to add carriages as they are apparently happy with the existing ridership / revenue mix.

Some riders may dislike existing "overcrowding," but you cannot run a profitable system with empty trains, hence no rush to add carriages. As both the BTS and MRT are run by publicly listed companies, strategic planning decisions will almost always have to take shareholders "welfare" into account. Folks should not confuse the fact that while the BTS and MRT are public transit, they are not a public good.

You hit the nail on the head - PLANNING.

[bkkjames]

What is the 5 year plan for handling the congestion at the ticket entry / purchase areas? Ever try to get through Asoke or Siam at rush hour. With the new extensions underway....boggles the mind what it will be like.

At MBK the planning is walk past all the ticket machines to stand in line to get change and then walk back to ticket machines and then turn-around and walk back towards turnstyles.

I can hear it now "buy a pre paid card". Oh yes, forgot about that beauty where-in everybody is lining up to re-load their cards by credit card x5 the amount of time vs someone wanting change.

When will we have the good old octopussy card that can be used on either system (bts and mrt)?

[muffy]

When are they going to run 24 hrs .?

[eeeya]

Two reasons.

1) Ordering additional rolling stock typically has about a 2-year lead time, so much planning must be done in advance... when will an operator actually "need" to add additional rolling stock based on passenger loads, desired load factor, revenue per passenger, etc.?

2) Following the foregoing, the BTS has not reached the point (yet) where it really needs to add carriages as they are apparently happy with the existing ridership / revenue mix.

Some riders may dislike existing "overcrowding," but you cannot run a profitable system with empty trains, hence no rush to add carriages. As both the BTS and MRT are run by publicly listed companies, strategic planning decisions will almost always have to take shareholders "welfare" into account. Folks should not confuse the fact that while the BTS and MRT are public transit, they are not a public good.

I think this sums it up pretty well. While its a bugger to catch a train at peak hour. During quieter times its still very pleasant, hardly crowded at all.

If I go to the station at 8:30am its a bit of a pain, sometimes waiting for 3 or 4 trains. But if I plan my day and get on at 9:30 its as different as night and day.

A 24 hour service wont happen anytime soon because there is no ridership to make it profitable. Like previously stated, this aint for the benefit of the public, this is for the benefit of the shareholder.