Working Online

[JLCrab]

From an interview with someone at the Dept of Labour in Chiang Mai:

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

Once again, if your online activities do not involve Thailand in any way (no clients residing in Thailand, no business with any Thai company), you're fine.

5 o-clock prattle: Once again if it were totally 'fine' Thailand would offer a non-IMM visa and a working-for-overseas-client-only extension of stay in Thailand rather than just letting you in a succession of tourist visas which are always subject to query upon entry. Maybe again when they next revise the standing Police Order.

Edited August 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[Fab5BKK]

I'm quite confused.

You did state that you work only 6 months a year, then you come to Thailand for holidays

Therefore, and maybe my understanding is wrong:

1. You aren't on a permanent job in your home country
2. When you come to Thailand (for holidays) you don't need to work on any report and don't need to worry about WPs

Just trying to understand your situation, if you don't mind (could be useful for others)

BTW guys could you share with me/us the company names where you get 3 (or even better 6) months of holidays?
I just have 25 working days of holiday a year (and I can't take them in 1 shot) :-(

PS: and having a boss ready to wait 6 months for a report... love it!

I am not an attorney in Thailand, but I was an employment attorney in the U.S. for many years. I have lived in Thailand for four years now. This is my best understanding of the rules:


Think of it as long holiday telecommuting. It is not illegal to telecommute from Thailand while you are on long holiday from home.

Yes it is !!

Perhaps people dont often get caught.. but it clearly is !!

So, if I come on holiday in Thailand for 3 or 6 months, stay at a hotel, do some sightseeing, lay on the beach...and during that time I also work on that big report I need to turn in to the bosses back home, check and respond to email, and maybe make some calls on spite of the time difference...that is working in Thailand and I need a work permit?

No. That is silly. Phrases like "working in Thailand" when used in relation to the law have specific legal meanings. It is not always (or even usually) the common usage meaning.

I only work 6 months a year

[jspill]

From an interview with someone at the Dept of Labour in Chiang Mai:

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

Once again, if your online activities do not involve Thailand in any way (no clients residing in Thailand, no business with any Thai company), you're fine.

5 o-clock prattle: Once again if it were totally 'fine' Thailand would offer a non-IMM visa and a working-for-overseas-client-only extension of stay in Thailand rather than just letting you in a succession of tourist visas which are always subject to query upon entry. Maybe again when they next revise the standing Police Order.

An activity can be 'fine' de facto even if not de jure.

[JLCrab]

Sure -- but the people on here want it to be fine, de facto, de jure, and with a blue ribbon & bow around it acknowledging the great contribution they are making to Thai economy and culture and then wonder why that is not so.

[JLCrab]

OOPS 2x but anyway as to prattle from The Sting:

Hooker: I gave him the breakout just like you said.

Gondorff: And?

Hooker: 'S good. He threatened to kill me.

Henry Gondorff: Hell, kid, they don't do that, you know you're not getting to 'em.

Edited August 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[jessc]

@Fab5BKK - the 6 month report quip was just an example...tho, when I worked as a legal writer (in addition to my law practice), I often had deadlines many months out.

Now, I operate a business in Thailand that caters to tourists, and so I work 6 months for high season, and have 6(ish) months a year to relax while staff handles the low season business. But I live in Thailand full time for several years now. I have a work permit and non-b.

My examples were meant to be illustrative rather than literal. My point was simply that I don't think Thailand intends to somehow prohibit the "working holiday" or require work permits for people who do not in any way work for an employer who does any kind of business in or concerning Thailand. It looks to me like people are a bit pedantic in reading the rules. A tourist visa requires a declaration that one will not be working or conducting business in Thailand...to read that to mean that one who is on holiday in Thailand must either get a work permit or completely ignore and neglect their affairs back home is just silly.

[Cypress Hill]

If you want to live in a country then you must abide by their laws. As a visitor you are "allowed" to stay by virtue of some of the laws which work to your advantage. If you wish to take part in certain activities you must abide by the laws that govern them. You can not "cherry-pick" the laws to suit yourself

Total BS. You CAN cherry pick which laws you obey. I bet every single holier-than-thou busybody on this forum broke laws in their homeland and they've broken laws here too.

I smoked weed in the UK before I came here. There's a law in place that says doing do is illegal but I chose to ignore it because it was at odds with my desire to get high in a harmless fashion.

Any man who indulges in P4P in Thailand is breaking the law as prostitution is illegal; just because he isn't pulled off his trick mid-thrust and carted off to court and fined is beside the point.

The person working online without a permit is - strictly speaking - breaking the law; just because he/she cannot be caught and thus isn't carted off to court and fined is beside the point.

In both examples, people have chosen to ignore a law.

They want to be able to tell the large scale IT-related investors -- who will also hire many Thai university graduates -- that while they do not aggressively discourage such behavior, they also do not encourage or provide any incentives for it.

No huge IT company is gonna be put off coming to Thailand by a few people selling Thai trinkets & knock-off sneakers on eBay, writing articles, trading stocks, playing professional poker or designing websites for small companies abroad.

[DrTuner]

In both examples, people have chosen to ignore a law.

Yeah. That makes them criminals. One can choose to be a criminal, but don't start whining and moaning if you get caught. Your choice, after all.

[nicolas18]

From an interview with someone at the Dept of Labour in Chiang Mai:

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

Once again, if your online activities do not involve Thailand in any way (no clients residing in Thailand, no business with any Thai company), you're fine.

5 o-clock prattle: Once again if it were totally 'fine' Thailand would offer a non-IMM visa and a working-for-overseas-client-only extension of stay in Thailand rather than just letting you in a succession of tourist visas which are always subject to query upon entry. Maybe again when they next revise the standing Police Order.

No, because that would be widely open to abuse. Want to stay 12 months in Thailand? Easy, just go to Immigration and tell them you're making websites!

But, I'm sorry, I will take the words of someone from the Labor Dept. over yours anytime, at least when it comes to work permits.

[JLCrab]

From an interview with someone at the Dept of Labour in Chiang Mai:

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

Once again, if your online activities do not involve Thailand in any way (no clients residing in Thailand, no business with any Thai company), you're fine.

5 o-clock prattle: Once again if it were totally 'fine' Thailand would offer a non-IMM visa and a working-for-overseas-client-only extension of stay in Thailand rather than just letting you in a succession of tourist visas which are always subject to query upon entry. Maybe again when they next revise the standing Police Order.

No, because that would be widely open to abuse. Want to stay 12 months in Thailand? Easy, just go to Immigration and tell them you're making websites!

But, I'm sorry, I will take the words of someone from the Labor Dept. over yours anytime, at least when it comes to work permits.

Great. One guy in Chiang Mai who said it's Ok who may not even still be in Chiang Mai. I don't care if anyone wants to stay and work online. Up-to-them. But then they ask why there is no online worker Non-Imm visa/ extension for the sole online worker.

And to the guy above, not everyone who works sub-radar online sells trinkets on Ebay. Some may be directly competing with some of the smaller BOI-type IT companies who will invest and hire Thai citizens as workers. A lot of development work from the US seems to be sub-contracted to smaller legit IT companies in Thailand.

[Cypress Hill]

And to the guy above, not everyone who works sub-radar online sells trinkets on Ebay. Some may be directly competing with some of the smaller BOI-type IT companies who will invest and hire Thai citizens as workers. A lot of development work from the US seems to be sub-contracted to smaller legit IT companies in Thailand.

But that's the point. They're not sub-contracting the work out to one-man-band freelancers working on a laptop out of a cafe on Beach Road. Those guys aren't exactly in competition with legit IT companies in Thailand.

[Cypress Hill]

In both examples, people have chosen to ignore a law.

Yeah. That makes them criminals. One can choose to be a criminal, but don't start whining and moaning if you get caught. Your choice, after all.

Oh pipe down with your nauseating sanctimony.

I guess you've never broken a law, right?

[khunerik]

From an interview with someone at the Dept of Labour in Chiang Mai:

He added that there is no “freelance” work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company. However, when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.

Once again, if your online activities do not involve Thailand in any way (no clients residing in Thailand, no business with any Thai company), you're fine.

5 o-clock prattle: Once again if it were totally 'fine' Thailand would offer a non-IMM visa and a working-for-overseas-client-only extension of stay in Thailand rather than just letting you in a succession of tourist visas which are always subject to query upon entry. Maybe again when they next revise the standing Police Order.

No, because that would be widely open to abuse. Want to stay 12 months in Thailand? Easy, just go to Immigration and tell them you're making websites!

But, I'm sorry, I will take the words of someone from the Labor Dept. over yours anytime, at least when it comes to work permits.

From an interview with someone

[JLCrab]

And to the guy above, not everyone who works sub-radar online sells trinkets on Ebay. Some may be directly competing with some of the smaller BOI-type IT companies who will invest and hire Thai citizens as workers. A lot of development work from the US seems to be sub-contracted to smaller legit IT companies in Thailand.

But that's the point. They're not sub-contracting the work out to one-man-band freelancers working on a laptop out of a cafe on Beach Road. Those guys aren't exactly in competition with legit IT companies in Thailand.

And officialdom I guess intends to keep it that way. There are plenty of sub-contracted projects that would only require one man dedicated full time.

Edited August 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[Delphis]

JessC, thank you for your lucid reply.

I can see the application for an ebook such as "Understanding Farangs for Thais" written in Thai.

It seems more blurry though for an ebook that has no such ambition, that may sell 1000 copies, and say 3 of those copies may just happen to be downloaded in Thailand. Are you saying that this then needs a work permit for Thailand? That seems problematic, as in, is there a particular threshold, and how could the author ever control that threshold anyway?

[DrTuner]

In both examples, people have chosen to ignore a law.

Yeah. That makes them criminals. One can choose to be a criminal, but don't start whining and moaning if you get caught. Your choice, after all.

Oh pipe down with your nauseating sanctimony.

I guess you've never broken a law, right?

Of course not. Even in the absolutely unfathomably remotely possibility I had done such a thing, I wouldn't be discussing it or contemplating breaking the law on a public internet forum read by authorities. That's just bad form.

[jessc]

JessC, thank you for your lucid reply.

I can see the application for an ebook such as "Understanding Farangs for Thais" written in Thai.

It seems more blurry though for an ebook that has no such ambition, that may sell 1000 copies, and say 3 of those copies may just happen to be downloaded in Thailand. Are you saying that this then needs a work permit for Thailand? That seems problematic, as in, is there a particular threshold, and how could the author ever control that threshold anyway?

I agree - it is more blurry. Which is why I would consult an attorney.

With respect to what jurisdiction things fall under (like what country has legal jurisdiction over your work), there is a general concept called the "minimum contacts test" (in english) that guides courts and administrators. Most countries have some form of this test or concept...and it is complicated, based in case law, and not easy to apply. I wish there was an easy answer I could offer, but since I don't practice law in Thailand, I am not versed in the nuances.

[Delphis]

JessC, thank you for your lucid reply.

I can see the application for an ebook such as "Understanding Farangs for Thais" written in Thai.

It seems more blurry though for an ebook that has no such ambition, that may sell 1000 copies, and say 3 of those copies may just happen to be downloaded in Thailand. Are you saying that this then needs a work permit for Thailand? That seems problematic, as in, is there a particular threshold, and how could the author ever control that threshold anyway?

I agree - it is more blurry. Which is why I would consult an attorney.

With respect to what jurisdiction things fall under (like what country has legal jurisdiction over your work), there is a general concept called the "minimum contacts test" (in english) that guides courts and administrators. Most countries have some form of this test or concept...and it is complicated, based in case law, and not easy to apply. I wish there was an easy answer I could offer, but since I don't practice law in Thailand, I am not versed in the nuances.

I shall need to look into that.

Since I don't think amazon operates, as such, in Thailand, this presumably means, in the ebook case, that a person in Thailand wishing to purchase it is in fact transacting with an American company (Amazon), and in effect also with a seller whose business activities through that platform are either registered to America or to their home country? If they ordered a physical item, it would presumably have to be shipped from America? Yet surely the seller of those iterms, living in Thailand, would not need a working permit, in Thailand, for such transactions? Thus, if this is true for virtual or information items it seems highly anomalous.

[JLCrab]

From the above: Yet surely the seller of those items, living in Thailand ... and such may be the crux of the matter. The person with the e-book/Amazon scenario IS living in Thailand. The issue of a work permit for vapor transactions is entirely nebulous. It seems the Thai officials would rather control the situation for persons doing online transactions while living in Thailand by control of visas/extensions of stay rather than perusing transactions made in the ether.

Much like the US could not prove Al Capone ordered persons to be murdered; they busted him on tax evasion charges.

[Delphis]

From the above: Yet surely the seller of those items, living in Thailand ... and such may be the crux of the matter. The person with the e-book/Amazon scenario IS living in Thailand. The issue of a work permit for vapor transactions is entirely nebulous. It seems the Thai officials would rather control the situation for persons doing online transactions while living in Thailand by control of visas/extensions of stay rather than perusing transactions made in the ether.

Much like the US could not prove Al Capone ordered persons to be murdered; they busted him on tax evasion charges.

The thing is, there's no rational reason for that, Unless the seller is actually promoting in Thailand (which would be work, IN Thailand) those people are going to download those books anyway, and so once more there's no net loss to Thailand, there's a net gain. I'm not really going against what you're saying, it's just one of those things that when you look into it, it doesn't really make sense if it were actually enforced.

[JLCrab]

From the above: Yet surely the seller of those items, living in Thailand ... and such may be the crux of the matter. The person with the e-book/Amazon scenario IS living in Thailand. The issue of a work permit for vapor transactions is entirely nebulous. It seems the Thai officials would rather control the situation for persons doing online transactions while living in Thailand by control of visas/extensions of stay rather than perusing transactions made in the ether.

Much like the US could not prove Al Capone ordered persons to be murdered; they busted him on tax evasion charges.

The thing is, there's no rational reason for that, Unless the seller is actually promoting in Thailand (which would be work, IN Thailand) those people are going to download those books anyway, and so once more there's no net loss to Thailand, there's a net gain. I'm not really going against what you're saying, it's just one of those things that when you look into it, it doesn't really make sense if it were actually enforced.

Which is why the Labor Department people don't seem to have any interest in going after persons living in Thailand and working online because the thing has become so nebulous -- they have tacitly decided it seems to leave such problems to the Min Foreign Affairs and Immigration folks since such persons living in Thailand and working online will eventually have to come before those authorities in person for their ability to remain in Thailand.

[Soutpeel]

From the above: Yet surely the seller of those items, living in Thailand ... and such may be the crux of the matter. The person with the e-book/Amazon scenario IS living in Thailand. The issue of a work permit for vapor transactions is entirely nebulous. It seems the Thai officials would rather control the situation for persons doing online transactions while living in Thailand by control of visas/extensions of stay rather than perusing transactions made in the ether.

Much like the US could not prove Al Capone ordered persons to be murdered; they busted him on tax evasion charges.

The thing is, there's no rational reason for that, Unless the seller is actually promoting in Thailand (which would be work, IN Thailand) those people are going to download those books anyway, and so once more there's no net loss to Thailand, there's a net gain. I'm not really going against what you're saying, it's just one of those things that when you look into it, it doesn't really make sense if it were actually enforced.

Which is why the Labor Department people don't seem to have any interest in going after persons living in Thailand and working online because the thing has become so nebulous -- they have tacitly decided it seems to leave such problems to the Min Foreign Affairs and Immigration folks since such persons living in Thailand and working online will eventually have to come before those authorities in person for their ability to remain in Thailand.

Of course, why waste money and man power investigating and chasing down people, court cases, police etc

just wait for them to come to "you" they have to eventually, its a cost effective and efficient way of catching people out

[Delphis]

Of course, why waste money and man power investigating and chasing down people, court cases, police etc

just wait for them to come to "you" they have to eventually, its a cost effective and efficient way of catching people out

Catch you out for what?

[Soutpeel]

Of course, why waste money and man power investigating and chasing down people, court cases, police etc

just wait for them to come to "you" they have to eventually, its a cost effective and efficient way of catching people out

Catch you out for what?

Working illegally, not having the correct visa for your stay in Thailand, too many visa runs, etc doing these checks at a border makes a lot sense

although you may not ever be charged with anything, being refused entry into Thailand has the same effect

Edited August 21, 2014 by Soutpeel

[mataleo]

Okay,

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

I'm guessing no, but I might be wrong, so I am all ears.

If however the answer is no, then we are talking about something that has a zero prosecution rate, and that can only be the case if it is effectively a non-subject for the Thai authorities.

No, never heard about anyone getting arrested or fined because they were working online (as long as those activities themselves are not illegal, e.g. pornography).

On the other hand, I personally know at least five people who got arrested for working in their own shop (they all were eventually released following the payment of a bribe).

Yeh and not kicked out like one member was saying here.

[jpinx]

Okay,

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

I'm guessing no, but I might be wrong, so I am all ears.

If however the answer is no, then we are talking about something that has a zero prosecution rate, and that can only be the case if it is effectively a non-subject for the Thai authorities.

No, never heard about anyone getting arrested or fined because they were working online (as long as those activities themselves are not illegal, e.g. pornography).

On the other hand, I personally know at least five people who got arrested for working in their own shop (they all were eventually released following the payment of a bribe).

Yeh and not kicked out like one member was saying here.

That is all changing nowadays with the anti-graft policies now in place. Next time it'll be a red-stamp in their passport - much more cost-effective than any fine or jailtime.

[mataleo]

Okay,

Does anyone whatsoever on this thread have any specific, non-anecdotal evidence, of pointers to actual case documentation kind, of any instances in Thailand where someone was a) fined, b ) imprisoned, or c) deported for being discovered to be undertaking online activities that have no economic flow through Thailand, except as tapped by that private individual through an ATM or terminal bank account?

I'm guessing no, but I might be wrong, so I am all ears.

If however the answer is no, then we are talking about something that has a zero prosecution rate, and that can only be the case if it is effectively a non-subject for the Thai authorities.

No, never heard about anyone getting arrested or fined because they were working online (as long as those activities themselves are not illegal, e.g. pornography).

On the other hand, I personally know at least five people who got arrested for working in their own shop (they all were eventually released following the payment of a bribe).

Yeh and not kicked out like one member was saying here.

That is all changing nowadays with the anti-graft policies now in place. Next time it'll be a red-stamp in their passport - much more cost-effective than any fine or jailtime.

U can change passport in bkk.

Took me month and 3000 bath

[jpinx]

U can change passport in bkk.

Took me month and 3000 bath

------------------------

The increasing use of the immigration database will fix that

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

That is all changing nowadays with the anti-graft policies now in place. Next time it'll be a red-stamp in their passport - much more cost-effective than any fine or jailtime.

U can change passport in bkk.

Took me month and 3000 bath

Changing passports is easy, (unless you are from the UK at the minute) changing the immigration database is a bit more complicated.

Or do you not think you will be entered into it for being red stamped?

Optimism is a wonderful virtue..........................

[JLCrab]

Facial plastic surgery can also work wonders.