Learned some Thai History today - WW2

[thailiketoo]

In one of the first missions of the war the Flying Tigers (American mercenaries) bombed Chiang Mai 3 months after the Japanese surprise attack against Pearl Harbor.

. The Flying Tigers were Americans fighting to uphold US policy.

In fact they were flying despite US policy at that stage. It was Pearl Harbor that saw a change to the isolationist policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers

[tifino]

I recall years back seeing a historical display (at the old Don Mueang airbase) that included some detail and images of a RTAF fighter pilot shooting a B-29 down.

Pity didn't take much more notice at the time, but we only had a few hours off before heading off to Hellfire Pass for participating in a cataflaque parade at the time, mid '90s

...but they did seem quite proud of the achievement...

[thailiketoo]

I recall years back seeing a historical display (at the old Don Mueang airbase) that included some detail and images of a RTAF fighter pilot shooting a B-29 down.

Pity didn't take much more notice at the time, but we only had a few hours off before heading off to Hellfire Pass for participating in a cataflaque parade at the time, mid '90s

...but they did seem quite proud of the achievement...

David (Thai) and Goliath (US): Hayabusas and B-29s. On November 27, 1944, the Allies sent fifty-five B-29s to bomb Bangsue marshalling yard in Bangkok. Flight Lieutenant Terdsak Worasap led a flight of seven Ki-43 Hayabusas to intercept, shooting down one B-29

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/print.php?id=1611

[Mrjlh]

An old American Plane (Mustang?) was found and dug out of a field in Lam Luk Ka (Bangkok) 1-2 years ago.

It's now on show in the Don Muang Airforce Museum.

Someone google and put up the results. I remember that it was tracked back and the pilot's details and flight details etc were all found. I remember the pilot's history was an interesting one.

That would be me. I found Capt. Abraham's family in Marshall, Texas. He passed away only two years prior to the finding of his plane. Several newspapers ran the article and we even did a nationwide search to find the other crew members. Unfortunately, they too also had passed away. Spoken many times with his wife who just last year passed away and am still in contact with his niece. Glad to see the tribute to his plane was finally completed. I'm hoping the museum sent parts of the plane back to Capt. Abraham's University that was requested. Now that I'm back I'll check on that. It was a good feeling to be part of that exercise and I thank several other TV members who helped out.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Mrjlh

[Mrjlh]

Further, Capt. Abraham had nothing but good words of praise for the Thais that held him and several other crew members captive. Never had a bad word all his life according to family. Had it been the Japanese he said things might have turned out differently.

[Smurkster]

Historically The Siamese kingdom has been great at compromise to get what they want or avoid further danger...in 1893 Siam gave the French every part of their territories East of The Mekong (thus splitting the Lao lands, with half remaining part of Siam as "Isan" and the other part being a french Protectorate. Some say if it wasn't for the French, Laos would today just be another part of Thailand). Rama V knew that if he didn't take Augustus Pavie up on this offer, his kingdom could very well be at jeopardy...

[AYJAYDEE]

To prevent Thailand from becoming a Japanese colony? But nevermind, just roll over and give up without a fight. Apparently the Thai women were quite pleased having lots of Jap soldiers to service...

Personally, with the exception of the Seri Thai,the behavior of Thailand during WW2 was disgraceful.

the asians didnt understand how japan would treat them at that time. the thais and the indonesians believed the japanese propoganda about the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. and they did know enough not to trust the west as they had the examples of vietnam, laos, cambodia, malaya, burma , philipines, and indonesia. why on earth would anyone trust that bunch!?

and please stop referring them as japs

The Asians certainly misjudged the Nips (is that better than Japs) as about 90,000 died on the Burma railway. About 12,400 Allies died.

yes they did. and that is an insulting term

[AYJAYDEE]

What grates on many westerners is that after Thailand capitulated and let the Japs in to build their death camps and railways, they had the gall to include the line "we're not afraid to fight" in their national anthem. I mean the Filippinos put up more of a fight but the actions of the Seri Thai helped a little.

why should thailand have fought on the side of western powers?

The question is why should Thailand, the Land of the Free have fought the Japanese occupation?

Well, look what happened to countries occupied by the Japanese Empire, like the Philippines, China (Nanjing), Hong Kong, Korea (comfort women). Would that be enough to fight?

none of that was known at the time

[AYJAYDEE]

AYJAYDEE, on 20 Aug 2014 - 12:18, said:

H1w4yR1da, on 20 Aug 2014 - 11:12, said:To prevent Thailand from becoming a Japanese colony? But nevermind, just roll over and give up without a fight. Apparently the Thai women were quite pleased having lots of Jap soldiers to service...

Personally, with the exception of the Seri Thai,the behavior of Thailand during WW2 was disgraceful.

the asians didnt understand how japan would treat them at that time. the thais and the indonesians believed the japanese propoganda about the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. and they did know enough not to trust the west as they had the examples of vietnam, laos, cambodia, malaya, burma , philipines, and indonesia. why on earth would anyone trust that bunch!?

and please stop referring them as japs

I hope you have never referred to Australians as aussies, British as Brits Americans as yanks, New Zealanders as kiwis etc etc etc. But of course, you being you will deny saying any of these. You troll for the sake of trolling.

japs is an insulting term

[AYJAYDEE]

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It was either that or get slaughtered. I cant understand why westerners are surprised by this. why would they expect thai loyalty to western governments? The lure of the "East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere" would have made perfect sense to a south-east asian nation.

The surprise perhaps comes from the Japanese slaughter of Filipinos, Chinese, Koreans, etc. who yet still fought back, often against overwhelming odds in often guerilla warfare with the Allies to gain back their national identity. The Thais seemed to have bailed rather quickly in comparison.

they chose the japanese side in the war.

[wilcopops]

whereas the Japanese "occupation" of Thailand was quite popular, by the end of the war the Free Thai movement had 50.000 Thai people ready to start underground operations against the Japanese.

[wilcopops]

seeing history in military terms only - even during WW@ is a very unsatisfactory way of trying to get a good perspective. It was a world war and economics and social pressures were at orcs that were as big as if not greater than any bomb. history is not about wars, it is about why there were wars.

Edited August 20, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Well, OP, sorry you are so ill-informed. Thailand's involvement in WWII has been well known; since WWII.

However, your use of wikipedia or any other encyclopedia for important research consideration is suspect.

Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia compiled by a distributed network of volunteers, has often come under attack by academics as being shoddy and full of inaccuracies. Even Wikipedia’s founder, Jimmy Wales, says he wants to get the message out to college students that they shouldn’t use it for class projects or serious research.

Speaking at a conference at the University of Pennsylvania on Friday called “The Hyperlinked Society,” Mr. Wales said that he gets about 10 e-mail messages a week from students who complain that Wikipedia has gotten them into academic hot water. “They say, ‘Please help me. I got an F on my paper because I cited Wikipedia’” and the information turned out to be wrong, he says. But he said he has no sympathy for their plight, noting that he thinks to himself: “For God sake, you’re in college; don’t cite the encyclopedia.”

Mr. Wales said that leaders of Wikipedia have considered putting together a fact sheet that professors could give out to students explaining what Wikipedia is and that it is not always a definitive source. “It is pretty good, but you have to be careful with it,” he said. “It’s good enough knowledge, depending on what your purpose is.”

In an interview, Mr. Wales said that Wikipedia is ideal for many uses. If you are reading a novel that mentions the Battle of the Bulge, for instance, you could use Wikipedia to get a quick basic overview of the historical event to understand the context. But students writing a paper about the battle should hit the history books.

Posted on Monday June 12, 2006 | Permalink |

Perhaps you should read Harvard's guidelines on wiki. Have you ever write a serious academic paper? (BTW - Thavisa is NOT a serious academic forum) - your conclusions about the OP's research don't even seem to coincide with your quotes.......

Or learn what I learned at Uni...how to research and critical thinking. Then you wouldn't wipe ANY source of info of your palette, but be able to look at it critically.

wiki has time and again been shown to be as accurate as such thins as Encyclopaedia Britannica....would I use that for serious research? no but it makes a good starting png, unlike wiki of course it is out of date within a year.

Edited August 20, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Actually, i think the most interesting thing about the OP is the genuine surprise at finding out a bit of Thai history. .....and I don't think he is alone in his ignorance. It occurs to me that many of the expats I speak to have absolutely low idea of Thailand's recent history.

This is clearly shown in the interpretations they put on the recent coup seeing it as a battle between good and evil, and they consider thaksin to be a cause rather than a symptom.

so the impression I get is that large numbers of expats are forming opinions (not really what they are) about Thailand out of ...well, THIN AIR.......

part of the reason for this must be their lack of ability to read up or educate themselves, but one also has to admit that there is a dire shortage of good English Language history books on Thailand, and a lot of those are banned in Thailand anyway.

[bonobo]

might be why thai's in kanchanaburi are unfriendly and unwelcoming to farang

I go to Kachanaburi quite often and have never found any Thais unfriendly or unwelcoming to me.

[bonobo]

In one of the first missions of the war the Flying Tigers (American mercenaries) bombed Chiang Mai 3 months after the Japanese surprise attack against Pearl Harbor.

A slightly slanted description of them as mercenaries. While the Flying Tigers were technically part of the Chinese Air Force, and while they got paid more than they had as simple members of the US Army Air Corps, the Navy, and the Marines, they still retained their rank and service in the US forces. They were a volunteer air group sent, with full US backing and planes, to help the Chinese fend off the Japanese.

"Mercenaries" has the connotation of merely fighting for money without regard to politics or philosophy. The Flying Tigers were Americans fighting to uphold US policy.

$500 per plane. Although initially the five-hundred-dollar-bonus was paid for confirmed planes destroyed in air combat only, the bonus was soon applied to planes destroyed on the ground - if they could be confirmed.

When the AVG was converted to the US Air Force only five AVG pilots joined the 23rd Fighter Group; the USAAF officer responsible for inducting the AVG men used very little tact and told them to sign up, on the Army's terms, or else go home and face the draft boards.

The majority of the Flying Tigers told the US Army to Foff and joined the Chinese National Airlines.

http://acepilots.com/misc_tigers.html

Not to hijack this thread, but the bonus payment for downing planes is something that has happened in "regular" air corps as well. And while only five pilots joined the USAAF, many more when back to other Army jobs or as Navy and Marine pilots. (Pappy Boyington, for example, broke his contract after the US declared war on Japan and went back to fly for the Marines.)

Regardless, your use of the term, in my opinion, was not really accurate, especially as it seemed to me to be used to demean what the unit did.

[dunque]

There were reprisals for them allowing the Japanese to use Thailand as a base. Bangkok was heavily bombed during the war as bridges and railways were targeted. This had a devastating effect on the population and they criticized the government for their decision. (incidentally, it also lead to Pak Boong becoming a staple diet during the war as it grew everywhere.).

Now for something you don't learn. After the war, Britain set up base in Thailand and had full control of the government for a while (all decisions had to be approved by the Brits). This is why Thailand does not appear on the list of 22 countries in the world that Britain didn't invade.

Probably heavier bombing than Paris received.

[Docno]

My great uncle was in Burma during WWII, He said the Thais were good soldiers. He had a lot of respect for the Japanese and the Thai soldiers after the war.

One of my old college teachers was a prisoner of the Japanese in Burma during WW2. He was forced to work on the Burma Thai railroad and hated the soldiers for their brutality toward the prisoners and watching so many of his comrades die horribly. He was scarred for life by what he experienced.

In Singapore, where I spend most of my time, the Japanese 'disappeared' thousands of Chinese (as many of 50,000 taken from their families, never to be seen again) and tortured 100s more to death. Actions not really deserving of respect in my book...

[harrry]

Old saying: "the bamboo that bends with the wind does not break"

However, portions of the RTG during WW II also cooperated with the UK SOE and the U.S. OSS so at the end of the war, Thailand was "saved" from harsh reparations by the Allies.

Mac

Well actually by the US as Britain and Australia wanted to enforce War reperations on Thailand but the US wanted to form a sphere of influence round the pacific and vetoed this.

Edited August 20, 2014 by harrry

[Docno]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've always seen a parallel between the Thai position in WWI viz the Japanese and the Vichy regime in France. That is, there was an element of government collaboration, but there was also a resistance movement and little support for the 'official Thai' position among Thais overseas. If I remember correctly, the representative of the Thai government in the US even refused to deliver the official declaration of war.

[mutha289]

An old American Plane (Mustang?) was found and dug out of a field in Lam Luk Ka (Bangkok) 1-2 years ago.

It's now on show in the Don Muang Airforce Museum.

Someone google and put up the results. I remember that it was tracked back and the pilot's details and flight details etc were all found. I remember the pilot's history was an interesting one.

I found this more interesting than the rest of the bickering about Thailand and WW 2. Here is the link to a TV thread about the P-51: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/474266-wwii-p-51-found-in-pathum-thani/

However I can't find that the Mustang is on display at the Royal Thai Air Force Museum in Bangkok.

[JusMe]

As far as I know the Japanese arrived off the coast at Surat Thani and gave the Thai PM until midnight to let the Japs land use Thailand as a stepping stone to other countries.

If no response was given by midnight the Japs would invade. As the Thai PM was not in Bangkok and could not be reached by midnight the Japanese did land at Surat and a battle ensued between them and pitchfork wielding Thais. Many Thais were killed in this skirmish.

Eventually the Thai PM was found and gave his permission for the Japanese to use Thailand as a base and the fighting in Surat ceased.

I can't remember where I read this but I'm pretty sure it's true.

There was a secret agreement between the Thai Prime Minister and the Japanese about the landings. Phibun did not tell his army until several hours after the landings, but the agreement had been in place for some time before that. He deliberately left Bangkok and was incommunicado for several hours during that time, in order to ensure the landings did occur.

There were some minor incidents during the landings, the greatest at Prachuap Khiri Khan. On the one side of the peninsula, there was no problem with the landing and the movement into the town. However, on the other, a small airforce training base fired at the landing troops, slowly withdrew onto the high ground on the peninsula, and kept fighting for a full day. They even refused a note from the town's post master saying word had come from Bangkok to permit the Japanese to land - this was a "fake" trick! Total of 33 or 34 Thais killed during this action, and an unknown number of Japanese, most drowned during the landing.

There is a strong line of reasoning that the Seri Thai was a private army being built up by Pridi in preparation for the end of the war when he would use them against Phibun. As the war ended so suddenly, that could't happen, and they were permitted a "victory" parade in Bangkok and most of them were disarmed.

[JusMe]

If I remember correctly, the representative of the Thai government in the US even refused to deliver the official declaration of war.

First, both men involved in that lovely story have denied it actually happened. Nice warm and fuzzy, but didn't happen.

Second, even if it had, it would have been irrelevant. There is nothing which requires a specific handover of a declaration of war for it to be effective.

[JusMe]

As smotherb so clearly pointed out in Post 53, Beware of Wikipedia.

It can be a good place to begin some research, but only a beginning. It must be looked at critically and never as a source of definitive wisdom.

[katana]

Old saying: "the bamboo that bends with the wind does not break"

However, portions of the RTG during WW II also cooperated with the UK SOE and the U.S. OSS so at the end of the war, Thailand was "saved" from harsh reparations by the Allies.

Mac

Not if Churchill had his way Thailand was to be declared an "enemy of the people" by him ,only Trueman saved their skin

Actually it was an American lady named Betty. Thais should watch the the video.

It makes a nice story that in 1946, then 31 year-old American Betty Mckenzie 'saved Thailand from the British Empire' and preserved its independence.

However, as one Thai poster comments under the video, after the Second World war America used Thailand as a bulwark against communism in the region, locating its airbases there and using them to drop thousands of tonnes of TNT on neighbouring countries.

eg during the Vietnam War, about 80% of all USAF air strikes over North Vietnam originated from air bases in Thailand.

So at second glance, it wasn't quite so altruistic.

[Thongkorn]

A little off topic, about the Air Bases in Thailand used to bomb surrounding country's, look up about the Secret CIA War in Lowe. its the most bombed County to date in the world. And long before the Second world war, France wanted to anix Thailand, The then Thai King went to England and requested the help from Queen Victoria of Britain, Britain and Germany told France under no circumstances could they invade Thailand. So France went to Vietnam.

[Pattszero]

This Betty McKenzie schtick is laughable - her actions were foolish, and Thailand is still paying the price to this very day. It was merely the fact that the State Department professionals were overrun that Thailand managed to squeak out of a rightful reckoning.

[GaryB1263]

My great uncle was in Burma during WWII, He said the Thais were good soldiers. He had a lot of respect for the Japanese and the Thai soldiers after the war.

One of my old college teachers was a prisoner of the Japanese in Burma during WW2. He was forced to work on the Burma Thai railroad and hated the soldiers for their brutality toward the prisoners and watching so many of his comrades die horribly. He was scarred for life by what he experienced.

In Singapore, where I spend most of my time, the Japanese 'disappeared' thousands of Chinese (as many of 50,000 taken from their families, never to be seen again) and tortured 100s more to death. Actions not really deserving of respect in my book...

My uncle was never captured so his respect was the fact that the Thai and Japanese soldiers would kill him if they could because they were effective soldiers. I thought that much would be obvious.

I think it is worth mentioning that many of the Japanese and American soldiers and sailors were friends later in life. Also many of the Japanese soldiers that committed atrocities were arrested and tried in court. I am going to let the veterans of WWII judge the people who fought in the war.

This is a fascinating post.

[Rorri]

AYJAYDEE, on 20 Aug 2014 - 23:55, said:

Rorri, on 20 Aug 2014 - 21:33, said:

AYJAYDEE, on 20 Aug 2014 - 12:18, said:AYJAYDEE, on 20 Aug 2014 - 12:18, said:

H1w4yR1da, on 20 Aug 2014 - 11:12, said:H1w4yR1da, on 20 Aug 2014 - 11:12, said:To prevent Thailand from becoming a Japanese colony? But nevermind, just roll over and give up without a fight. Apparently the Thai women were quite pleased having lots of Jap soldiers to service...

Personally, with the exception of the Seri Thai,the behavior of Thailand during WW2 was disgraceful.

the asians didnt understand how japan would treat them at that time. the thais and the indonesians believed the japanese propoganda about the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. and they did know enough not to trust the west as they had the examples of vietnam, laos, cambodia, malaya, burma , philipines, and indonesia. why on earth would anyone trust that bunch!?

and please stop referring them as japs

I hope you have never referred to Australians as aussies, British as Brits Americans as yanks, New Zealanders as kiwis etc etc etc. But of course, you being you will deny saying any of these. You troll for the sake of trolling.

japs is an insulting term

only to some, as is any term used for any race, get over it. You post to see your name. In fact, some have only called it "insulting" in recent times. I notice you don't deny calling other nations by they abbreviated name, grow up, it's people like you that create a "politically" correct world simply for their own reasons, before that every one was happy, another case of the noisy minority getting their way. In fact if the japs didn't go to war the turn would not have gained the "insulting" image of today, prior to WW2 if was accepted. The term itself goes back to the 19th century. So, what you call "insulting" today could quite easy be acceptable again tomorrow. I might point out that the word "jap" is not consider derogatory in Singapore.

[Deacon Bell]

An old American Plane (Mustang?) was found and dug out of a field in Lam Luk Ka (Bangkok) 1-2 years ago.

It's now on show in the Don Muang Airforce Museum.

Someone google and put up the results. I remember that it was tracked back and the pilot's details and flight details etc were all found. I remember the pilot's history was an interesting one.

I found this more interesting than the rest of the bickering about Thailand and WW 2. Here is the link to a TV thread about the P-51: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/474266-wwii-p-51-found-in-pathum-thani/

However I can't find that the Mustang is on display at the Royal Thai Air Force Museum in Bangkok.

I only know that it's there because we saw it there around 6 months ago.

The whole museum is very well done, free, and a good day out.

You can't miss that display as the massive props have completely been bent back and twisted.