Power failure detection device

[JesseFrank]

My excuses for the complicated title, but I couldn't think up a better description.

I've posted about this before, that I've power failure for a fraction of a second, which affects some parts of the house but not other parts. I had such one just minutes ago.

In my previous thread it was determined as being a brown out, but I want to be sure.

So I have a 100A breaker between the mains and the house breaker box. Is there a simple device that I can install at the breaker that will show me that the power has been off for a fraction of a second ?

[bankruatsteve]

Under normal conditions the power is "off" 50 times per second. I think it would help <somebody else> to know exactly what your concern is. IE: what device is having a problem?

[RichCor]

You can 'plug in' a detector anywhere on your wiring. Many UPS battery backup units have alarms that will chirp if the unit activates.

There are also plug-in devices you can buy that will record power statistics over time but they're not cheap.

The cheapest devices I've ever used as a monitor were a Digital and Analog clock, both AC powered.

The Digital clock would reset it's time to 12:00 and the analog clock would pause while the power was off. Together I could derive how long the outage lasted and when the power was finally restored.

... posted about this before, that I've power failure for a fraction of a second, which affects some parts of the house but not other parts. I had such one just minutes ago.

I find it odd that only some parts of the house would be affected.

As has been asked, what issues, symptoms, have you concerned?

I have never experienced transient reoccurring power drop-outs (where a light goes completely off then back on), at least that wasn't Storm or Bar Closing related.

Usually we experience voltage drops (brown-outs) when large load appliances are initially powered on (Instant-on Water Heater, Deep Well Pump, etc) or when the far neighbor on the same transformer phase is welding and the lights will dim for a fraction of a second or the fans will slow.

If you actually have parts of the house go dark rather than go dim, I would check the wiring to that part of the house. Could be a terminal/junction connection has too much resistance due to a poor Thai twist&tape job.

[lopburi3]

You have three phase power to your house and one phase is getting shorted (tree branch in wind maybe) momentary causing dip in voltage but not enough to trip transformer or your breakers it would seem. If you do not have three phase power you must have other issues internal to your home if you are sure only some sections are losing power during these dips.

[JesseFrank]

I have my own transformer but single phase. The power loss is as I say only a fraction of a second, but enough to restart the PC, reset the clock from the microwave and maybe reset some other devices in the house, but not every device. So it maybe that the power-cut is that short that devices at the end of the power circuit are not affected?

The 100A breaker is outside the house in a metal breaker box, so not possible to install a UPS there. What I try to find out is if it is such a very short brown out or if there are internal issues. Even the shortest possible brown out will be detected at the breaker outside.

So if I have such an issue next time and I can find out that there was no powercut at the breaker outside, I know it's time to call in an electrician.

As long as I'm not sure about that, it is a waste of time and money.

I have other appliances which have a device installed that when power is lost a led will light up and stay on until I reset it, but is a homemade device and the person who made it is not available anymore. I think about something similar

[JesseFrank]

You can 'plug in' a detector anywhere on your wiring. Many UPS battery backup units have alarms that will chirp if the unit activates.

There are also plug-in devices you can buy that will record power statistics over time but they're not cheap.

The cheapest devices I've ever used as a monitor were a Digital and Analog clock, both AC powered.

The Digital clock would reset it's time to 12:00 and the analog clock would pause while the power was off. Together I could derive how long the outage lasted and when the power was finally restored.

... posted about this before, that I've power failure for a fraction of a second, which affects some parts of the house but not other parts. I had such one just minutes ago.

I find it odd that only some parts of the house would be affected.

As has been asked, what issues, symptoms, have you concerned?

I have never experienced transient reoccurring power drop-outs (where a light goes completely off then back on), at least that wasn't Storm or Bar Closing related.

Usually we experience voltage drops (brown-outs) when large load appliances are initially powered on (Instant-on Water Heater, Deep Well Pump, etc) or when the far neighbor on the same transformer phase is welding and the lights will dim for a fraction of a second or the fans will slow.

If you actually have parts of the house go dark rather than go dim, I would check the wiring to that part of the house. Could be a terminal/junction connection has too much resistance due to a poor Thai twist&tape job.

The cheapest devices I've ever used as a monitor were a Digital and Analog clock, both AC powered.

Good suggestion, hadn't thought about that.

[JesseFrank]

Where to get an AC powered clock that is small enough to fit in a breaker box and doesn't kill the bank ?

[Pib]

I live in western Bangkok and every week on the average I probably have 2 brief power outages of less than a second...just enough to have to reset the microwave clock...maybe the TV screen goes black for a second and it takes a few seconds for the TV settop box to regain the cable TV signal...A/Cs turn off and immediately turn back on....if the lights are on they go off and immediately come back on, etc. Basically the electric company is switching loads around the area and their equipment/switches are not fast enough to avoid the customer's equipment from sensing these switches. Happens the most often in the early morning say around 6 to 9am but happens at other times also like during early night prime time TV Soap show viewing time. Only a few times a year (I'll guess 3 or 4 times) does it go completely off or goes into a brown-out (significantly reduced voltage) for "minutes at a time." And once every year or two it may be off for/go into brown-out for over an hour.

Been that way for the six years I've lived here. Just old & slow load switching equipment causing the momentary power outages. Have never lost power during a lightning storm and I've went through plenty of them. Heck it may be Somchai, the 90 year old electric company employee, who just can't get the timing right or is slowing down in throwing the switches.

[lopburi3]

As said dirty switching seems to be an issue (especially on weekends and holidays) - seems as if they do not wait for sync before making changover (at least that is what we had to do years ago using generators/commercial changovers). I have given up on microwave clocks (not needed) and just have normal UPS for computer equipment.

[JesseFrank]

As said dirty switching seems to be an issue (especially on weekends and holidays) - seems as if they do not wait for sync before making changover (at least that is what we had to do years ago using generators/commercial changovers). I have given up on microwave clocks (not needed) and just have normal UPS for computer equipment.

I understand the importance of a UPS, but right now I want to determine if the issue is internal or external.

A device like I have on those other appliances must be very easy and cheap to build, that is if you have the knowledge.

Anyone can give me the necessary advice how to build ? I assume it works with an electronic switch that switches to position A when the power goes off, and make an LED light up when the power returns, and stays in that position until it is manually reset.

Edited August 20, 2014 by JesseFrank

[Pib]

As said dirty switching seems to be an issue (especially on weekends and holidays) - seems as if they do not wait for sync before making changover (at least that is what we had to do years ago using generators/commercial changovers). I have given up on microwave clocks (not needed) and just have normal UPS for computer equipment.

I understand the importance of a UPS, but right now I want to determine if the issue is internal or external.

A device like I have on those other appliances must be very easy and cheap to build, that is if you have the knowledge.

Anyone can give me the necessary advice how to build ? I assume it works with a relays that switches when the power goes off, and make an LED light up when the power returns, and stays in that position until it is manually reset.

Unless that external breaker you mentioned in your earlier post is an automatic resetting breaker (and I'm guessing it's not) which would only trip and then reset automatically probably due to an overload in your home then the power outages you are experiencing is from the electric company lines; not due to any of your equipment. Momentary/brief power outages are very common in Thailand...I sure experience them here in western Bangkok frequenty...the mother-in-law out in a nearby province sure experiences them frequently, etc.

[JesseFrank]

As said dirty switching seems to be an issue (especially on weekends and holidays) - seems as if they do not wait for sync before making changover (at least that is what we had to do years ago using generators/commercial changovers). I have given up on microwave clocks (not needed) and just have normal UPS for computer equipment.

I understand the importance of a UPS, but right now I want to determine if the issue is internal or external.

A device like I have on those other appliances must be very easy and cheap to build, that is if you have the knowledge.

Anyone can give me the necessary advice how to build ? I assume it works with a relays that switches when the power goes off, and make an LED light up when the power returns, and stays in that position until it is manually reset.

Unless that external breaker you mentioned in your earlier post is an automatic resetting breaker (and I'm guessing it's not) which would only trip and then reset automatically probably due to an overload in your home then the power outages you are experiencing is from the electric company lines; not due to any of your equipment. Momentary/brief power outages are very common in Thailand...I sure experience them here in western Bangkok frequenty...the mother-in-law out in a nearby province sure experiences them frequently, etc.

The outside breaker is a 100A Mitsubishi RCB, which is installed where the lines coming from the transformer are connectted to the power cable going to the house. Inside the house the system is split up in 3 circuits that each have their RCBO and surge protector.

No breaker ever trips, the only suspicious about the whole thing is that the power failure resets so fast that only certain appliances are affected.

I had the impression that the light of the fan in the office went out and back on, but in normal circumstances that would result in the fan switching off and the light only on, but even that didn't happen.

I also suspect it is an issue with the electric company but you never can be 100% sure, and I want to put this case to rest, which I can do that with a device as mentioned above

Edited August 20, 2014 by JesseFrank

[RichCor]

Where to get an AC powered clock that is small enough to fit in a breaker box and doesn't kill the bank ?

I wouldn't recommend adding anything to a CB (Circuit Breaker Box) that wasn't designed to go in there. Normally once wired there should be no reason to open the protection cover of a CB unless a service or an inspection is required. It really should come with a sticker, "No User Serviceable Parts".

If you want to 'monitor' at the CB, I would suggest adding a short circuit feed from one of your breakers to an covered outlet (since your CB is 'outside'). Plug in any monitor device on this 'service' outlet.

Otherwise, a UPS can go anywhere on your circuit -- if you are truly experiencing transient power outages then the warning circuit will sound no matter where it is. Though, it will only sound/ or 'light' during a fault condition and clear when the condition no longer exists.

Also, here are some 'toys' to think about

PQR 2020 Three Phase Voltage Disturbance Recorder

designed to be connected to a single phase 120V or 240V AC line or a Three Phase 208/240/400 Volt AC line and will monitor these lines for voltage disturbances.

PQR D52 Power line monitor

designed to be plugged into a 120V or 240V AC line and will monitor this line for voltage disturbances and temperature or Humidity variations.

PQR D50 Power line monitor

designed to be plugged into a 120V or 240V AC line and will monitor this line for voltage disturbances.

Probe 100 Plus 120V AC Power line monitor Live Monitor. Too bad it's only 120v

useful in identifying types of power disturbances that are on the 120 volt AC line. The Probe can be plugged into the same circuit and left for a period of time. When a problem is experienced with the equipment, immediate checking of the Probe's LEDs will indicate the worst case power problem.

I'm sure there are less expensive versions available.

[JesseFrank]

Where to get an AC powered clock that is small enough to fit in a breaker box and doesn't kill the bank ?

I wouldn't recommend adding anything to a CB (Circuit Breaker Box) that wasn't designed to go in there. Normally once wired there should be no reason to open the protection cover of a CB unless a service or an inspection is required. It really should come with a sticker, "No User Serviceable Parts".

If you want to 'monitor' at the CB, I would suggest adding a short circuit feed from one of your breakers to an covered outlet (since your CB is 'outside'). Plug in any monitor device on this 'service' outlet.

Otherwise, a UPS can go anywhere on your circuit -- if you are truly experiencing transient power outages then the warning circuit will sound no matter where it is. Though, it will only sound/ or 'light' during a fault condition and clear when the condition no longer exists.

Also, here are some 'toys' to think about

PQR 2020 Three Phase Voltage Disturbance Recorder

designed to be connected to a single phase 120V or 240V AC line or a Three Phase 208/240/400 Volt AC line and will monitor these lines for voltage disturbances.

PQR D52 Power line monitor

designed to be plugged into a 120V or 240V AC line and will monitor this line for voltage disturbances and temperature or Humidity variations.

PQR D50 Power line monitor

designed to be plugged into a 120V or 240V AC line and will monitor this line for voltage disturbances.

Probe 100 Plus 120V AC Power line monitor Live Monitor. Too bad it's only 120v

useful in identifying types of power disturbances that are on the 120 volt AC line. The Probe can be plugged into the same circuit and left for a period of time. When a problem is experienced with the equipment, immediate checking of the Probe's LEDs will indicate the worst case power problem.

I'm sure there are less expensive versions available.

The breaker outside isn't a CBB, it is just a metal box with one single breaker and a power socket inside. From there I can cut the power to the CBB inside the house with a single breaker pull, so I think it would be no problem to install such a device in there. The homemade devices I have on the other appliances must cost next to nothing to build, since the electrician didn't even charge me for them. It's just a small plastic box with an led glued into it and a plastic pressure switch to reset it.

Too bad they are designed for a 12V DC system otherwise I would remove one and install it on the breaker.

Edited August 20, 2014 by JesseFrank

[wayned]

Is it actually affecting different parts of the house or just different appliances. It depends on how sensitive the power supplies are to momentary outages or low voltage input We have monetary power outages every morning, switching I guess, and brown outs all of the time. My stereo goes off, the TV stays on, the clocks all reset to zero, the computer, wife's, that is not on a GPS turns off and the water pump will pop the internal thermal breaker is it tries to start with low voltage. All in different areas of the house with different indications The electric digital clock idea will work and is inexpensive

[Crossy]

You are not going to find a power monitor / analyser that will give meaningful results for much less than USD 1000, although those units shown by richcor actually look pretty useful at 500.

Back home one would go and hire one, here, I've not seen test equipment hire although it's doubtless available.

To be honest, if you are seeing short dips the chances are strong it's just dirty switching of the supply network, get a UPS for the computer. Many UPSs have simple monitor functions built in so could be usable if plugged into your outside outlet if you are that worried.

[JesseFrank]

You are not going to find a power monitor / analyser that will give meaningful results for much less than USD 1000, although those units shown by richcor actually look pretty useful at 500.

Back home one would go and hire one, here, I've not seen test equipment hire although it's doubtless available.

To be honest, if you are seeing short dips the chances are strong it's just dirty switching of the supply network, get a UPS for the computer. Many UPSs have simple monitor functions built in so could be usable if plugged into your outside outlet if you are that worried.

I don't need a power analyzer, all I need is a small device that I know can be built from scratch for next to nothing, as I have 5 such devices built by my electrician who is now unfindable.

When power goes off it closes a switch that lights up an LED when the power comes on again, and the switch stays closed until it is manually reset.

I'm sure someone on here can tell me which parts I have to buy and then I can construct it myself.

In fact I have a device that works exactly like that, but it need to be reset by remote....................but someone nicked the remote

[Daffy D]

The cheapest devices I've ever used as a monitor were a Digital and Analog clock, both AC powered.

Good suggestion, hadn't thought about that.

Just be sure it does not have a battery back-up inside or if it does remove the battery.

I have UPS for the computer and a digital clock in the bedroom. Even the slightest glitch in the power supply, sometimes not even enough to dim the lights or blink the TV will beep the UPS and flash the clock back to 12.00.

[Crossy]

You are not going to find a power monitor / analyser that will give meaningful results for much less than USD 1000, although those units shown by richcor actually look pretty useful at 500.

Back home one would go and hire one, here, I've not seen test equipment hire although it's doubtless available.

To be honest, if you are seeing short dips the chances are strong it's just dirty switching of the supply network, get a UPS for the computer. Many UPSs have simple monitor functions built in so could be usable if plugged into your outside outlet if you are that worried.

I don't need a power analyzer, all I need is a small device that I know can be built from scratch for next to nothing, as I have 5 such devices built by my electrician who is now unfindable.

When power goes off it closes a switch that lights up an LED when the power comes on again, and the switch stays closed until it is manually reset.

I'm sure someone on here can tell me which parts I have to buy and then I can construct it myself.

In fact I have a device that works exactly like that, but it need to be reset by remote....................but someone nicked the remote

You have 5 devices just waiting for you (or your new sparks) to copy one. QED

Before anyone designs anything you need to set some parameters, such as what constitutes the mains going 'off'? 1 missing cycle, 10 or what?

That's the whole point of a proper monitor, it tells you what has actually occurred.

[JesseFrank]

You are not going to find a power monitor / analyser that will give meaningful results for much less than USD 1000, although those units shown by richcor actually look pretty useful at 500.

Back home one would go and hire one, here, I've not seen test equipment hire although it's doubtless available.

To be honest, if you are seeing short dips the chances are strong it's just dirty switching of the supply network, get a UPS for the computer. Many UPSs have simple monitor functions built in so could be usable if plugged into your outside outlet if you are that worried.

I don't need a power analyzer, all I need is a small device that I know can be built from scratch for next to nothing, as I have 5 such devices built by my electrician who is now unfindable.

When power goes off it closes a switch that lights up an LED when the power comes on again, and the switch stays closed until it is manually reset.

I'm sure someone on here can tell me which parts I have to buy and then I can construct it myself.

In fact I have a device that works exactly like that, but it need to be reset by remote....................but someone nicked the remote

You have 5 devices just waiting for you (or your new sparks) to copy one. QED

Before anyone designs anything you need to set some parameters, such as what constitutes the mains going 'off'? 1 missing cycle, 10 or what?

That's the whole point of a proper monitor, it tells you what has actually occurred.

What I'm looking at is a wireless switch. I have such a remote receiver here, which I used for my speakers, but no transmitter anymore as you know.

As long as the switch has power it will stay open but when the power goes off the switch will automatically close, and stay closed when the power returns, until it is opened again with the remote. This must be easy to construct using a pressure button instead of a remote.

[wayned]

You could always buy a single channel recorder with warning and battery backup. It would show you exactly what is happening and would set you back somewhere around 30kbaht. A little overkill in my opinion.

[Crossy]

OK the simplest answer:-

How it works:-

Mains power goes to J1,

Lamp 1 lights to indicate mains present, Lamp 2 is off.

Press S1

Relay K1 pulls in, Lamp 2 lights.

Release S1

K1 remains energised by its NO contact (9 and 5)

If the mains fails K1 will drop out.

When mains returns we are back to the start, Lamp 1 lights to indicate mains present, Lamp 2 is off.

Whilst it will work, there are a number of issues:-

The voltage at which the relay drops out is indeterminate, a couple of tests on ones I have with 220V AC coils shows that once energised they stay pulled in even when the supply goes down to 120V

The time of an outage required to drop the relay is also indeterminate, I currently have no means to measure this, but 50ms would not be unreasonable.

[bankruatsteve]

What I am curious: Why would anyone care if the power drops for a sub-second to the extent an electronic method is needed to show it???

[JesseFrank]

What I am curious: Why would anyone care if the power drops for a sub-second to the extent an electronic method is needed to show it???

Because I want to find out if it is from the mains or a bad connection in my house wiring.

[bankruatsteve]

Just to say... in my experience, bad connections do not stay that way for the long time. IE: they become sparky and fry or drop out altogether. So, not sure what your power out device is going to "prove". ??

[JesseFrank]

Just have a contacter opened, or closed by the power line you want to check. And feed the power line line to check through a normal opened switch on that contacter. If power cutts off, contacter will switch and stay in that position, even when power comes back.

You can make it "bling bling" with control lights on the free contacts

With most contacter you do not have any clue how long, or how low the power failure was to make the contacter switch.

I worked in the past with Fluke "Power Quality Analyzer" this tells you everything. A bit expansive.

I don't need to know how long the power cut was, I only need to know if it comes from outside or is an internal issue.

[JesseFrank]

Just to say... in my experience, bad connections do not stay that way for the long time. IE: they become sparky and fry or drop out altogether. So, not sure what your power out device is going to "prove". ??

It gonna proof me if the power cut comes from outside or is an internal issue. If it is determined that it's an internal issue I need to get a sparky in to locate the bad connection, if it comes from outside it isn't my problem.

[bankruatsteve]

Just to say... in my experience, bad connections do not stay that way for the long time. IE: they become sparky and fry or drop out altogether. So, not sure what your power out device is going to "prove". ??

It gonna proof me if the power cut comes from outside or is an internal issue. If it is determined that it's an internal issue I need to get a sparky in to locate the bad connection, if it comes from outside it isn't my problem.

So, you will need multiple "power out thingy" on every receptacle that has something plugged in. ?? Wow. That is certainly an out-of-box way to 'solve' what may, may not be an issue. Cheers.

[JesseFrank]

OK the simplest answer:-

Untitled-1.jpg

How it works:-

Mains power goes to J1,

Lamp 1 lights to indicate mains present, Lamp 2 is off.

Press S1

Relay K1 pulls in, Lamp 2 lights.

Release S1

K1 remains energised by its NO contact (9 and 5)

If the mains fails K1 will drop out.

When mains returns we are back to the start, Lamp 1 lights to indicate mains present, Lamp 2 is off.

Whilst it will work, there are a number of issues:-

The voltage at which the relay drops out is indeterminate, a couple of tests on ones I have with 220V AC coils shows that once energised they stay pulled in even when the supply goes down to 120V

The time of an outage required to drop the relay is also indeterminate, I currently have no means to measure this, but 50ms would not be unreasonable.

That is what I had in mind.

Now to go any further. I have such a Step 501, like I pictured in my previous post, and which does exactly what you suggest, but is useless since I don't have the remote anymore.

It's compact and has the right connections. Would it be possible to replace the wireless part in the receiver with a small pressure switch, and would this modify be a walk in the park for a local tv guy ?

[JesseFrank]

Just to say... in my experience, bad connections do not stay that way for the long time. IE: they become sparky and fry or drop out altogether. So, not sure what your power out device is going to "prove". ??

It gonna proof me if the power cut comes from outside or is an internal issue. If it is determined that it's an internal issue I need to get a sparky in to locate the bad connection, if it comes from outside it isn't my problem.

So, you will need multiple "power out thingy" on every receptacle that has something plugged in. ?? Wow. That is certainly an out-of-box way to 'solve' what may, may not be an issue. Cheers.

I need just one single "thingy" which is on the power feed to the CBB. When my PC and microwave clock reset, or any other appliance in the house for that matter, and the "thingy" hasn't reset at the same time the issue is somewhere internal.

Can't be that difficult to comprehend .

Edited August 21, 2014 by JesseFrank