Israel PM vows further Gaza campaign

[Ulysses G.]

Hamas murders 18 more of their own. Savages!

Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven who were lined up behind a mosque with bags over their heads and shot in front of hundreds of people. The killings came in response to Israel's deadly airstrike against three top Hamas military commanders.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hamas-kills-11-suspected-informers-israel-25080623

A barbarous act, though doubt exists whether it was carried out under the direct orders of Hamas leaders or carried out by an extremist splinter group.

Similar excuses were given for the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers. Now Hamas is actually bragging about it.

A senior Hamas official boasted during a conference in Istanbul on Wednesday that the group's military wing was behind the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank in June.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

[Jingthing]

Ah, Bibi Netanyahu, that great Israeli warmonger is at it again this morning. After the death of the 4 year old Israeli boy he said the IDF will "intensify" its attacks on Gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098

There is nothing like a willingness to talk tough and cash in on people's grief to help in the polls, eh Bibi?

So, if Netanyahu is acting rationally, then we must accord Hamas the same rights as Netanyahu claims for Israel. Israelis should not then object if - after the deaths of so many young Gazan children - Hamas also intensifies its efforts. Maybe they should be firing tens of thousands of rockets and mortars each day at Ben Gurion and into the heart of Tel Aviv to ensure some parity with child deaths and weapon use? This would still not equal the firepower that Israel pours into Gaza each day. But at least they could claim that they had also "intensified" attacks to show they shared the stance and rationale of the Israeli government.

The loser is a madman, hell bent on avenging his brothers death at the hands of arab freedom fighters.

The "freedom" the Hamas terrorists ("River to the Sea") fight for means a Jew free Palestine. Trouble is ... what happens to the JEWS in such a scenario? Any softer words you hear from Hamas are for external propaganda purposes only. Their actual goals are super easy for anyone to understand.

Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews are not going to get married. Too much has gone down for that. The best they can hope for is a very messy DIVORCE with as little bloodshed as possible.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Jingthing

[coma]

Ah, Bibi Netanyahu, that great Israeli warmonger is at it again this morning. After the death of the 4 year old Israeli boy he said the IDF will "intensify" its attacks on Gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098

There is nothing like a willingness to talk tough and cash in on people's grief to help in the polls, eh Bibi?

So, if Netanyahu is acting rationally, then we must accord Hamas the same rights as Netanyahu claims for Israel. Israelis should not then object if - after the deaths of so many young Gazan children - Hamas also intensifies its efforts. Maybe they should be firing tens of thousands of rockets and mortars each day at Ben Gurion and into the heart of Tel Aviv to ensure some parity with child deaths and weapon use? This would still not equal the firepower that Israel pours into Gaza each day. But at least they could claim that they had also "intensified" attacks to show they shared the stance and rationale of the Israeli government.

The loser is a madman, hell bent on avenging his brothers death at the hands of arab freedom fighters.

The "freedom" the Hamas terrorists ("River to the Sea") fight for means a Jew free Palestine. Trouble is ... what happens to the JEWS in such a scenario? Any softer words you hear from Hamas are for external propaganda purposes only. Their actual goals are super easy for anyone to understand.

Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews are not going to get married. Too much has gone down for that. The best they can hope for is a very messy DIVORCE with as little bloodshed as possible.

No. Nothing against "JEWS". Just Israel.

[Jingthing]

Ah, Bibi Netanyahu, that great Israeli warmonger is at it again this morning. After the death of the 4 year old Israeli boy he said the IDF will "intensify" its attacks on Gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098

There is nothing like a willingness to talk tough and cash in on people's grief to help in the polls, eh Bibi?

So, if Netanyahu is acting rationally, then we must accord Hamas the same rights as Netanyahu claims for Israel. Israelis should not then object if - after the deaths of so many young Gazan children - Hamas also intensifies its efforts. Maybe they should be firing tens of thousands of rockets and mortars each day at Ben Gurion and into the heart of Tel Aviv to ensure some parity with child deaths and weapon use? This would still not equal the firepower that Israel pours into Gaza each day. But at least they could claim that they had also "intensified" attacks to show they shared the stance and rationale of the Israeli government.

The loser is a madman, hell bent on avenging his brothers death at the hands of arab freedom fighters.

The "freedom" the Hamas terrorists ("River to the Sea") fight for means a Jew free Palestine. Trouble is ... what happens to the JEWS in such a scenario? Any softer words you hear from Hamas are for external propaganda purposes only. Their actual goals are super easy for anyone to understand.

Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews are not going to get married. Too much has gone down for that. The best they can hope for is a very messy DIVORCE with as little bloodshed as possible.

No. Nothing against "JEWS". Just Israel.

Hamas has nothing against Jews? Who do you think is fooled by that? Last time I checked Israel is not the nation state of the Baha'i people.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

No. Nothing against "JEWS". Just Israel.

WRONG. The Hamas Charter clearly calls for genocide against JEWS.

"The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." [Article 7]

Edited August 23, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Despite all your (7by7) dramatics (?), you have just repeated what I said, they (the IRA) wanted some territory back.

Despite your silly smilies, your English comprehension appears as lacking as your knowledge of Irish history.

Attempts to teach you either would be as fruitless as they would be off topic.

So all I will say is that I have not repeated what you said; the IRA never had any territory to want back! They wanted to force part of one sovereign nation to become part of another sovereign nation against the will of the people living there.

Unlike the Palestinians who have had territory illegally stolen by Israel and want it back.

There are a lot of differences between the two conflicts, as I have always said, but there are also enough similarities for the one to act as an example to the other of what can be achieved.

You don't accept that; your right.

Unless you have something new to say on the comparison, I see no point in continuing this point any further; we are simply repeating ourselves.

They (the IRA) were not calling for the genocide of the Jewish people as Hamas does in their charter. There are a lot of differences between the two conflicts.

As repeatedly said, but ignored by those who support the bombing of civilians by the IDF, Hamas have publicly renounced that part; although some hardliners haven't.

Similar excuses were given for the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers. Now Hamas is actually bragging about it.

A senior Hamas official boasted during a conference in Istanbul on Wednesday that the group's military wing was behind the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank in June.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

From The Guardian

His claim has not been supported by any other member of Hamas......

......Hugh Lovatt, Israel and Palestine coordinator at the European Council on Foreign Relations, said that while al-Arouri was a significant Hamas figure – serving as the group's most prominent representative in Turkey – the former militant could have an ulterior motive for making his claim.

"Given the timing I would be very suspicious about his claim. I still don't believe Hamas as an organisation and its upper echelons sanctioned the kidnappings – something that Israeli intelligence also believes," he said.(my emphasis)

Lovatt said that al-Arouri may be trying to claim credit for the actions of others in an attempt to demonstrate his own continued sway in the West Bank and Hamas's ability to hit Israel after failing to secure significant concessions after six weeks of violence in Gaza.

"A second, more remote possibility, is that al-Arouri is telling the truth and that he has operated on his own initiative – a development with very worrying repercussions as it would imply a serious power struggle and splintering within Hamas," he said.

[Ulysses G.]

So all I will say is that I have not repeated what you said; the IRA never had any territory to want back!

The IRA wanted Ireland to go back to what it was before it was conquered and the colonization of Ulster was organized by importing Protestants from Britain. They wanted the territory back. They did not want to commit genocide as Hamas calls for in their charter. Face it, the IRA is NOT Hamas and all the spin in the world does not change that fact.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

Ireland before it was conquered by the Normans was an island of rival kingdoms; each struggling to place their own candidate in the position of high king.

That is not what the IRA wanted to return to!

Brief history lesson over; you can look the rest up.

No one has said that the IRA is Hamas; but, as usual, you put words into peoples mouths (or keyboards) when you have no valid argument against what they have actually said.

Edited August 23, 2014 by 7by7

[Ulysses G.]

That is not what the IRA wanted to return to!

More silly spin. They wanted the British to leave. They wanted territory, but, unlike Hamas there was no intention of committing genocide and they certainly did not call for it in their charter. The IRA is not Hamas.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[7by7]

There are none so blind as those who will not see; and you are a perfect example of that.

[Jingthing]

Back to topic.

The topic is not Ireland.

Please stop with the Ireland mania.

The no preconditions mantra is a red herring diversion as well.

Everyone knows neither side will ever enter talks with no preconditions.

Everyone posting here could say, OK, no preconditions, that sounds good, and so what, won't make any difference in the real world.

Hamas ... stop the rockets and they can stop this.

Interestingly (can't confirm) this video is presented as a case where civilians were WARNED (as is a known IDF policy) but some seemed to be standing around waiting for a show. It does APPEAR that these civilians know an attack is coming and weirdly are not running. Strange, huh?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Jingthing

[Thaiready]

Whatever you say dex....

..increasingly you sound like a broken record.

+1

[Morch]

Snip the silly stuff for ease of reading the rest...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now for some more serious thoughts. The above is written tongue in cheek to stress the ridiculous claims that Palestinians are somehow being unfairly treated.

Hamas initiates these attacks on Israel from densely populated urban areas in order for any retaliatory fire from the IDF to kill or injure as many civilians as possible. This is the reason they use hospitals, mosques, schools and UN facilities to fire from and for weapons storage.

If Hamas truly had the welfare of their population at heart, they would fire the rockets from some of that vacant land in Gaza that is not heavily populated. If you believe otherwise, you are sorely ill informed.

I am certain this post will draw vehement vitriol from those that favor Palestine but you should be aware I am in my 76th year on this earth, have been through a few wars myself and fear only God and my wife...not necessarily in that order.

Have at it...or reflect on your personal positions and see if you might need to alter them just a little.

War is not designed to be fair. That's why it's not called "boxing".

"..ridiculous claims that Palestinians are somehow being unfairly treated". It is ridiculous to say that they are being fairly treated as you imply. Is it fair that they have their homes stolen? Is it fair that women and children are killed in retaliation for rockets landing in empty fields? Are the other inequities too numerous to write here fair?

Did you ever consider that Hamas fighters fire from urban areas because Gaza, under Israeli force, is one of the most densely packed areas of the world..they have nowhere else to go! Your suggestion they should go to an empty field is as ridiculous in today's standards of warfare as the red uniforms of the British 200 years ago.

So your age makes you wise and well-informed does it? Or does it make you somewhat cranky and thus not level headed? I'm not sure, but you certainly don't seem to portray level headedness in your writing.

War is not fair. True. But there are conventions and international laws, of which Israel ignores and contravenes many.

Did you ever consider that Hamas fighters fire from urban areas because Gaza, under Israeli force, is one of the most densely packed areas of the world..they have nowhere else to go!

Did you consider that this might be, again, an instance where you confidently post on something which you are hardly familiar with? I do understand most people posting on these topics never set foot anywhere near the Gaza Strip, not to mention actually visited the place - but seriously, even an unprofessional quick look in Google Earth would show that the above claim is utter nonsense. Had the Hamas wished it, they could set a lot of their operations not within densely populated areas. Obviously, it would make it harder for them to avoid getting hit by the IDF, but on the plus side, would save an awful lot civilian lives. Seeing as you care that much about conventions and international law - how does the Hamas using densely populated urban areas as staging ground sit with them conventions and laws?

[Morch]

I have previously noted, and I re affirm it, that you can infer a lot about the inner workings of a man by the choice of metaphors and analogies that are used. For instance, I believe so much of the nonsense that is birthed in the vivid imagination of anti Israel persons on this forum are not at all original thought. But when the same staples- the same suggestions and analogies persist, you easily see you are conversing with someone who's opinions were formed in the crucible of... nothing at all! Opinions like this are often regurgitated counter charges offered by earlier Jew haters.

Example: Is it really unique thought to assign to the Jews as an indictment the very horror that befell the Jews in WWII? No, the Ayatollahs, imams, PLO, and numerous others have always both minimized the holocaust and elevated the appearance that the Jews themselves are guilt of such things. Is this really the intellectual company one feels good about keeping? This association does not mean its not true, or course. But it is not true. There is hardly a standard by which someone could sustain the charge that Israel does to arabs what was done to the Jews in WWII. But this is a key foundation for many who despise Jews, and is also used effectively in politics- repeat something often enough until it is accepted fact. Take from your opponent their narrative, claim it as your own, and beat them with the historical revision- (gaslighting, I believe).

In the end, I hardly believe all Palestinian supporters are vile or haters. I just think the weight of facts and history and truth do not lend to precise argument. This is why there is always a vortex that opens up with the anti Israeli crowd. No matter the effort to stick to reason it will always digress into personal attacks, collective indictment of Jews, or seizing from the Jews components of their collective history, negating it, and in turn charging them similarly with the horrors visited upon them. It is a real man who can stand strong in the face of overwhelming evidence they are incorrect, and recede or regroup their conviction. It is more likely the predictable human nature to flail about throwing even the kitchen sink. Though natural, they should be called on it.

Oh, was that little slight of hand unintentional? Referring to the "anti Israel persons" and going on to say their unoriginal opinions are regurgitations of earlier "Jew haters". Depending how you read "earlier" one might think you are calling the current batch of anti-Israel persons Jew haters? That's quite an accusation.

Is it ad hominem if you refer collectively to a group of men, or does the term only refer to arguing against one man?

Someone (CBR250?) recently posted 5 points that show there does seem to be some valid analogy with Israelis and Nazi. He readily and rightly qualified that the horrors in Nazi Germany were of far greater magnitude. I wonder if you read those?

No, it was not unintentional, and yes, there thoughts are their own. My point was not well crafted. I think there are certain buzzwords, cliches, or concepts associated with Israel and the local arab issue that are indeed ideas previously offered to the world both by Israel haters, and valid opponents of Israel. Yet some of these claims border on, IMO, the ludicrous. When someone coopts these thoughts and offers them as their own deliberations, I do consider that a regurgitation. We all do this somewhat. However, these issues involve concepts such as genocide and extermination programs, etc. I do think that is a reach.

My point does not constitute ad hominen. I make no qualitative judgement regarding the posters. In interpersonal communication and knowledge and mass media, etc., have many of us frequently offering up thoughts that argument our position, we maintain, but are hardly our own (anyone has ever written a paper for school encounters this). Its just in this instance, I think it deserves commentary because genocide is a particularly vile act committed against jews (not solely) and the effort to revise history and recast them in that very place is at best disingenuous. The most vocal of such charges happen to be such people as Iran offers to the world stage recently.

I do believe a person could pull together 5 coherent points of comparison, CBR250. Nevertheless, of all the players in this sad affair there is actually only one side with a declared policy of annihilation, and that is not the Jews. Therefore, the assertion that the Jews have such ambitions should first challenge that their opponents do not- and they do! (You may not realize but your arguments, and others, have seriously challenged a few positions of mine for revising). Please proceed with the understanding I don't try to deceive or be misleading; I am not. Sometimes I miss something or appear to avoid. I do not. I am just not as smart as I think I am).

Iran, and I'm guessing someone from Hamas has said things that have been interpreted to mean "a declared policy of annihilation ". Firstly, "interpreted to mean" is an important consideration. Ahmadinejad's words have been interpreted in different ways...which way the Western media choose to portray is obvious, but can you say correct? Similarly for Hamas' words. Now I'm not claiming nor suggesting that the Western media interpretation is wrong....just that it may be a biased interpretation. Likely a biased interpretation.

On the other side of the coin, Israel has never stated such a goal. That does not make the goal non-existent. Israel's nuclear capabilities have never been stated either, but we all know they exist. Israel's actions, when looked at since it's inception, suggest that indeed a goal of inhabiting much more than what was established in 1948 exists. Lets not even go into discussion of "Greater Israel" let alone the ideas underlying the ISIS conspiracy.

So, Western media is always suspect of biased interpretations when it comes to Iran and Hamas. That is a very convenient way of dealing with all sorts of unpleasantness spewed by leaders of both. Even when they actually say these things it can be claimed that they did not really mean them, or that it was figurative speech. My guess is that at some point, this routine must wear thin, but apparently some still buy it.

On the other hand, Israel not saying anything of the sort if indicative that it does have some nefarious goal in store. Perfect logic at work. The fact that Israel came to its territorial gains after wars initiated by its neighbors hardly seems to weigh in this scheme of things. The fact that Israel let go of quite a lot of them territorial gains means little as well. And yes, lets not indulge discussion of silly conspiracy theories. Keeping reality check on real things is a task as it is.

[Morch]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

[arjunadawn]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah

opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward

Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

"Freedom" is anathema to Islam=Hamas. The very conceptual framework of Islam rails against "freedom." I can explain further but this is hardly the place; a cursory homework assignment proves this point. Islam opposes freedom because freedom is a construct of man, of here, or idolatry, and secularism. I recalled this story once previously but think its relevant still: In Yemen I was stunned by the amount of pedestrian victims there were. Every day many people would be hit by cars; lots! I asked my translator and he told me that to look left or right when stepping into the street would be questioning the will of Allah. Therefore, Inshallah (Allah willing) they would step into traffic without a second thought. All motive action self generated by the individual potentially implies freedom.

The idea, then, that Hamas is a "freedom fighting organization" is bold faced lie, at best a mind-numbing stretch. Hamas primary mission is based in koranic mandate; its vehicle was co-opting the palestinian issue to achieve that end. It is the militant wing of an organization who's aims are far greater than the Israeli issue, and it is managed financially toward regional ends not necessarily related to the local Gaza issue. It is a terrorist network!

I cannot imagine the mind that could actually describe Hamas in this manner. What is necessary, first, is a total suspension of objective reality, declared Agendas, and sacred scripture to accept your post as valid. Posts like this serve to orient me to how totally imperiled the world really is. Thoughts like this are daily given credibility in Western capitals. How utterly absurd.

[coma]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah

opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward

Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

Collaborating with the enemy carries the death penalty in a lot of countries.

[Morch]

Ah, Bibi Netanyahu, that great Israeli warmonger is at it again this morning. After the death of the 4 year old Israeli boy he said the IDF will "intensify" its attacks on Gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098

There is nothing like a willingness to talk tough and cash in on people's grief to help in the polls, eh Bibi?

So, if Netanyahu is acting rationally, then we must accord Hamas the same rights as Netanyahu claims for Israel. Israelis should not then object if - after the deaths of so many young Gazan children - Hamas also intensifies its efforts. Maybe they should be firing tens of thousands of rockets and mortars each day at Ben Gurion and into the heart of Tel Aviv to ensure some parity with child deaths and weapon use? This would still not equal the firepower that Israel pours into Gaza each day. But at least they could claim that they had also "intensified" attacks to show they shared the stance and rationale of the Israeli government.

The loser is a madman, hell bent on avenging his brothers death at the hands of arab freedom fighters.

You meant hijackers who threatened to kill hostages, right?

For accuracy's sake, Netanyahu's brother was probably shot by Ugandan soldiers, as the Arab terrorists were dead

by then.

[Morch]

Hamas murders 18 more of their own. Savages!

Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven who were lined up behind a mosque with bags over their heads and shot in front of hundreds of people. The killings came in response to Israel's deadly airstrike against three top Hamas military commanders.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hamas-kills-11-suspected-informers-israel-25080623

A barbarous act, though doubt exists whether it was carried out under the direct orders of Hamas leaders or carried out by an extremist splinter group.

Roundly, and rightly, condemned by many, including

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights chairman Raji al-Surani demanded the Palestinian Authority and other armed factions "intervene to stop these extra-judicial executions, no matter what the reasons and motives are".

(source)

As I said, a barbarous act; as barbarous as bombing civilians and killing and maiming them in their thousands using the excuse that there may be Hamas rockets nearby.

Not seeing anything about an "extremist splinter group" in the link provided - where does the doubt it is Hamas come from?

[Morch]

I have used the example of the IRA before, that they were determined to destroy Northern Ireland, that they often deliberately targeted civilians.

They were not determined to "destroy" Northern Ireland. That is deceitful. They wanted some territory back.

Your ignorance of history and politics is showing.

The IRA did not "want some territory back," they wanted to force part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to leave the UK and be forced into becoming part of a foreign country; the Republic of Ireland. Thus destroying the province of Northern Ireland.

Against the wishes of the majority of people, Catholic and Protestant, living there.

As a result of the peace process, the IRA have changed their stance and now accept that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until and unless the people of Northern Ireland decide otherwise. Though some hardliners in the Irish Republican movement have not accepted this.

Hamas have publicly amended their original statements and have publicly declared their acceptance of Israel as a state; though some hardliners have not accepted this.

They do, though, want the Palestinian territories illegally seized by Israel back.

Hamas have publicly amended their original statements and have publicly declared their acceptance of Israel as a

state; though some hardliners have not accepted this.

They do, though, want the Palestinian territories illegally seized by Israel back.

To the best of my knowledge they did no such thing. That is, not amended their "original statements" (would this be

a reference to the Hamas charter?), nor publicly declare their acceptance of Israel as a state. Which hardliners, in

your opinion, did not accept this? And who would be the "moderates" who do?

The Hamas leadership calls for retrieval of all the lands from the Jordan river to the sea - that would include Israel.

[Morch]

Despite your silly smilies, your English comprehension appears as lacking as your knowledge of Irish history.

Attempts to teach you either would be as fruitless as they would be off topic.

So all I will say is that I have not repeated what you said; the IRA never had any territory to want back! They wanted to force part of one sovereign nation to become part of another sovereign nation against the will of the people living there.

Unlike the Palestinians who have had territory illegally stolen by Israel and want it back.

There are a lot of differences between the two conflicts, as I have always said, but there are also enough similarities for the one to act as an example to the other of what can be achieved.

You don't accept that; your right.

Unless you have something new to say on the comparison, I see no point in continuing this point any further; we are simply repeating ourselves.

As repeatedly said, but ignored by those who support the bombing of civilians by the IDF, Hamas have publicly renounced that part; although some hardliners haven't.

Similar excuses were given for the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers. Now Hamas is actually bragging about it.

A senior Hamas official boasted during a conference in Istanbul on Wednesday that the group's military wing was behind the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank in June.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

From The Guardian

His claim has not been supported by any other member of Hamas......

......Hugh Lovatt, Israel and Palestine coordinator at the European Council on Foreign Relations, said that while al-Arouri was a significant Hamas figure – serving as the group's most prominent representative in Turkey – the former militant could have an ulterior motive for making his claim.

"Given the timing I would be very suspicious about his claim. I still don't believe Hamas as an organisation and its upper echelons sanctioned the kidnappings – something that Israeli intelligence also believes," he said.(my emphasis)

Lovatt said that al-Arouri may be trying to claim credit for the actions of others in an attempt to demonstrate his own continued sway in the West Bank and Hamas's ability to hit Israel after failing to secure significant concessions after six weeks of violence in Gaza.

"A second, more remote possibility, is that al-Arouri is telling the truth and that he has operated on his own initiative – a development with very worrying repercussions as it would imply a serious power struggle and splintering within Hamas," he said.

Here is another take on the kidnapping/murder:

"We were not aware of this action taken by this group of Hamas members in advance," he said. "But we understand people are frustrated under the occupation and the oppression, and they take all kinds of action."

When asked directly whether Hamas members carried out the abduction of the Israeli teens, Meshaal said: "We learned about these confessions from the Israeli investigation … Hamas political leadership was not aware of all these details. We learned about it later on …

"Our view is that soldiers and settlers on the West Bank are aggressors, and they are illegally living in this occupied and stolen land. And the right to resist is the right of Palestinians."

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil-193125056.html

I think I covered it on another post (different topic) - for all intents and purposes, the perpetrators clan IS the Hamas in town. That they are hardliners as hardliners go is well known. The thing is, this act is growing old - Clan carries out an attack, Hamas central gives blessing but denies responsibility. Been on more than a couple of times.

Deleted some quoted posts to allow posting

[Morch]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah

opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward

Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

Collaborating with the enemy carries the death penalty in a lot of countries.

Right....were the PA people thrown off buildings in Gaza collaborating with the "enemy"? Were the Christians of Gaza collaborating with the "enemy"? A lot of countries got some form of due process which involves more than finger pointing and summary execution in the street.

[coma]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah

opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward

Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

The very conceptual framework of Islam rails against "freedom."

In their country what does it have to do with outsiders ?

[arjunadawn]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah

opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward

Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

The very conceptual framework of Islam rails against "freedom."

In their country what does it have to do with outsiders ?

I think you are asking an useful question but please, can you be more specific what you refer to? Thank you.

[Thorgal]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

Israeli secret intelligence was well aware of the growing importancy of Mujama al Islamya and Hamas in Gaza.

In fact, Israel was looking a long time for an alternitive to radical Palestinian PLO (secular nationalists).

Sheikh Yassin and his followers had a long term perspective whose dangers were not understood by Israel at the time.

Radical Hamas ( Islamists) was not at all stopped by Israel. In contrary...

Edited August 25, 2014 by Thorgal

[dexterm]

Ah, Bibi Netanyahu, that great Israeli warmonger is at it again this morning. After the death of the 4 year old Israeli boy he said the IDF will "intensify" its attacks on Gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098

There is nothing like a willingness to talk tough and cash in on people's grief to help in the polls, eh Bibi?

So, if Netanyahu is acting rationally, then we must accord Hamas the same rights as Netanyahu claims for Israel. Israelis should not then object if - after the deaths of so many young Gazan children - Hamas also intensifies its efforts. Maybe they should be firing tens of thousands of rockets and mortars each day at Ben Gurion and into the heart of Tel Aviv to ensure some parity with child deaths and weapon use? This would still not equal the firepower that Israel pours into Gaza each day. But at least they could claim that they had also "intensified" attacks to show they shared the stance and rationale of the Israeli government.

The loser is a madman, hell bent on avenging his brothers death at the hands of arab freedom fighters.

The "freedom" the Hamas terrorists ("River to the Sea") fight for means a Jew free Palestine. Trouble is ... what happens to the JEWS in such a scenario? Any softer words you hear from Hamas are for external propaganda purposes only. Their actual goals are super easy for anyone to understand.

Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews are not going to get married. Too much has gone down for that. The best they can hope for is a very messy DIVORCE with as little bloodshed as possible.

Better get divorced soon in a 2 state solution, or it will be a messy marriage in a one state solution with Israel having to absorb the Palestinians they are presently occupying. Personally I am in favor of this...it will eventually happen anyway when peace one day descends on the region. In 100 years time religion/ethnicity will be a primitive joke, and people will adapt to the necessity of just getting along together.

[dexterm]

No. Nothing against "JEWS". Just Israel.

WRONG. The Hamas Charter clearly calls for genocide against JEWS.

"The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." [Article 7]

Charters get outdated. Hamas have said as such. It looks like Israel may have lapsed on its founding charter too (Israel's Declaration of Independence)..

• Israel is to be a state of development for the benefit of all its inhabitants;

• Israel is to be a state based on the fundamentals of freedom, justice and peace, a state in which all the inhabitants will enjoy equality of social and political rights, along with freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.

...yeah, tell that to Israeli Arabs, Palestinian ethnically cleansed refugees and the occupied inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/decind.html

Shalom

[dexterm]

Everyone knows neither side will ever enter talks with no preconditions.

It's the only way to enter talks. While both sides are talking unconditionally, at least no-one is getting killed.

[coma]

Hamas is a freedom fighting organisation. As long as the Palistinians are oppressed and killed by the 1000's there will be the need for such an organisation. Netanyahu and his war mongering, racist, zionist regime know how to end this conflict but that is not in their personel interests.

Hamas aims to free the lot (Gaza Strip, West Bank, Israel), not just its own plot. Seeing how Hamas dealt with the Fatah

opposition when things got heated when it took control of the Gaza Strip, the way it treats dissent and its attitude toward

Israelis and Jews - freedom is not exactly the main dish on the menu.

Collaborating with the enemy carries the death penalty in a lot of countries.

Right....were the PA people thrown off buildings in Gaza collaborating with the "enemy"? Were the Christians of Gaza

collaborating with the "enemy"? A lot of countries got some form of due process which involves more than fingerpointing

and summary execution in the street.

Once Israel allows Palestine to live in a modern, civil world then the Palestinians will act modern and civil.

[Jingthing]

Once Israel allows Palestine to live in a modern, civil world then the Palestinians will act modern and civil.

Like Syrians, innit?