Digital nomad, online workers.. Permission !

[INV]

I am a classic example of a digital nomad. I manufacture all my goods in India. I ship everything from India worldwide. I take all currencies. All these currencies get exchanged into Thai Baht and go in my Siam Commercial. All i do is act as the conductor overseeing the orchestra from my abode in Thailand.

Unless "nomad" is legally defined as YOU being nomadic, and not your business operations being nomadic. Thailand (if there is a legal definition of nomad in Thailand) may define a nomad as someone who lives in many places, and thus excludes anyone who lives here full time.

You are splitting hairs... The qualifying factor is that the foreigner is on a tourist visa... How would they track "nomads"?

The Thai ISP's are required to save all the network traffic so you could be just that, tracked down and prosecuted/deported.

That's why it's illegal to have a a VPN connection in Thailand.

They can't see your traffic and your routes, it's encrypted.

I think you are wrong about that. I Google around and nothing say its illegal but its illegal to use VPN for illegal activities

[LivinLOS]

It's not with a condesending tone I write this.

Web companies aren't IT business in the sense of the word. It's more like journalism or informational systems, like a word processor (wonderful term isn't it, like the words are processed by a machine and then pops out the other end, completly altered into a finished product).

There goes 20 web "programmer" on a dozen here in Thailand, but there doesn't seem to exist any hardcore programmer, like C++,C# or even VB.NET on a client/server environment, much less database skills.

I have advertised, tried with contacts and a lot more to find me some Thai IT staff, but I gave up a year ago.

The concept of OOP doesn't seem to be taught at even university levels here in Thailand. (OOP = Object Oriented Programming).

My staff i have are purely concentrated on design and book keeping.

I had an embryo a while ago who had university degree in programming, but she left because she got a headache learning OOP. She only knew PHP when I hired her and that is absolutely not enough when dealing with large companies who's got multiple platforms and operating on an international basis, not web "programming".

While i understand your frustration maybe your not paying enough.. My friend runs an entire team of sold programmers.. all Thai..

Also I hope your not expecting them on a vacation island..

[tebee]

I suspect it was just another Thai official shooting their mouth off without any real backing.

I suspect that you are absolutely correct. Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration talking a lot of smack just like the Superintendent of Hua Hin Immigration a few weeks ago who said that all foreigners must carry their passport on their person at all times.

This is going to need a lot of clarification directly from the top.

But at least this may cause those at the top to issue some sort of clarification or maybe even just realize that this sort of person exists and needs to be catered for.

I'm sort of in this category myself as I live and work in France, but design and sell products for the UK and US markets. However my wife is Thai and I spend 3-6 months each year in Thailand - I don't stop working while I'm there, but still pay all my taxes back in France.

Indeed 40% of my income now comes as commissions from my designs made by other people, so I'd get that even if I didn't work.

It doesn't matter where in the world I work from, if there was a clear sure way to work legally in Thailand I might be tempted to move the business there and live there full time, but in the interim I'll settle for France as house prices here are 25% of where I come from in the UK.

[LivinLOS]

How would Thailand be able to demand, and enforce, the production of all income sources when those sources are from outside Thailand ??

One suggestion would be to set a 'min wage' under which taxes would need to be paid on the income even if not generated.. Say 60k a month min wages needed for this class and the the taxes for 60k as a minimum paid for each month the visa class is operated.

Another would be to demand accounting of all inward remittances and add 30% on top of that. sort of taxing the 'income' used in Thailand.. However again this would be VERY hard to police and also puts people in a position of being unable to afford taxes after spending the money.

Given that the salary level to get a Work Permit is only 50K baht, so why not make the taxable amount that, rather than 60K baht.

Depends on the nationality no.. Japanese Americans etc are 60.. Some others are 50 or 55.. Local Asians are a few 1000..

[KamalaRider]

The Thai ISP's are required to save all the network traffic so you could be just that, tracked down and prosecuted/deported.

That's why it's illegal to have a a VPN connection in Thailand.

They can't see your traffic and your routes, it's encrypted.

I think you are wrong about that. I Google around and nothing say its illegal but its illegal to use VPN for illegal activities

No I'm not, IT IS illegal if you want to work over VPN without a valid work permit.

*Legality of VPN in Thailand.

*The computer crime act does not prohibit it but under certain sections it is indirectly covered and that is if it is used to bypass government blocks or for illegal activity it is illegal in that the activity is illegal but the technology is not.

from post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/334588-proxies-vpn-and-other-information/ here in TV.

[monk213]

There are so many ways of getting around such problems, tor, proxies, simple places to change your IP etc etc. If gambling were legal (oh yea the lottery, but lets not talk about that), I would make a safe bet on there being a good amount of the economy coming from nomads and people working from their laptops on other visas, and as it has been said they are not taking Thai work, most would pay taxes if there was an actual visa for them, and they are not mostly drug abusing criminals, they are just making a living and staying in a nice part of the world at the same time. Often these people are very skilled and have been to university, graphic design for example takes several years of studying and then several years of actual experience before you can go it alone and do well. It isn't much different from what a medical practitioner would have to go through.

Edited August 21, 2014 by monk213

[KamalaRider]

It's not with a condesending tone I write this.

Web companies aren't IT business in the sense of the word. It's more like journalism or informational systems, like a word processor (wonderful term isn't it, like the words are processed by a machine and then pops out the other end, completly altered into a finished product).

There goes 20 web "programmer" on a dozen here in Thailand, but there doesn't seem to exist any hardcore programmer, like C++,C# or even VB.NET on a client/server environment, much less database skills.

I have advertised, tried with contacts and a lot more to find me some Thai IT staff, but I gave up a year ago.

The concept of OOP doesn't seem to be taught at even university levels here in Thailand. (OOP = Object Oriented Programming).

My staff i have are purely concentrated on design and book keeping.

I had an embryo a while ago who had university degree in programming, but she left because she got a headache learning OOP. She only knew PHP when I hired her and that is absolutely not enough when dealing with large companies who's got multiple platforms and operating on an international basis, not web "programming".

While i understand your frustration maybe your not paying enough.. My friend runs an entire team of sold programmers.. all Thai..

Also I hope your not expecting them on a vacation island..

I was even prepared to move to BKK area/Pattaya and the starting salary would have been 55 000THB per month, 16 000 more than most others, but my work changed somewhat so I don't have to find anyone now.

Edited August 21, 2014 by KamalaRider

[INV]

The Thai ISP's are required to save all the network traffic so you could be just that, tracked down and prosecuted/deported.

That's why it's illegal to have a a VPN connection in Thailand.

They can't see your traffic and your routes, it's encrypted.

I think you are wrong about that. I Google around and nothing say its illegal but its illegal to use VPN for illegal activities

No I'm not, IT IS illegal if you want to work over VPN without a valid work permit.

*Legality of VPN in Thailand.

*The computer crime act does not prohibit it but under certain sections it is indirectly covered and that is if it is used to bypass government blocks or for illegal activity it is illegal in that the activity is illegal but the technology is not.

from post http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/334588-proxies-vpn-and-other-information/ here in TV.

ok I see your point and you are correct in that case.To use VPN to any legal and normal activity is ok.Actually good info there thanks.Good luck my internet is in GF name so she is the criminal and visit all this nasty blocked websites late at night when I sleep,Bad girl

[Christie Paul]

I think a lot of unnecessary argument and friction is being caused we don't share the same definitions of critical points.

Employment, Conducting business, Work, Tourist, Legal, Lawful, Tax

Are just a few definitions that would require agreement on what they meant - other worse we just go around in circles.

By the way, when you enter the country and get a VOA - you fill in a form and it clearly asks you for the purpose of your visit.

With the following options Holiday, Business, Education, Employment, Transit, Meeting, Incentive, Convention, Exhibitions, Other. And you can select more than one. I don't see how and on what basis they can grumble afterwards if you declared your intention at the border.

Thailand is subject to UCC, but like many countries, contravenes its guidelines when dealing with the ignorant and the vulnerable.

[chrisinth]

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I do respectfully and humble; while doing so genuily, dare to ask an exact definition of a digital nomad?

Is it some random snipets of code who wander in the network, the so called 'angels' back in the 70' (term used in some Phd thesis at that time)?????

Or is a 'catch-all' word, used to easily define a group of human being unable to find a decent employment in their own country (too many candidates, so only the top best are selected) or in this country (too many candidates, even with top best out, so only the very best can compete)?

I do understand people such as Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckenberg or Bill Gates can, is they so choose, became digital nomads and earn billions a day working remotly; what I do not grasp is the same naming being used by Joe Smith, Mr Allcome, or a noboddy who barely get enought to buy a Chang in 7/11?

You may, if you please, P.M. and decline your qualities on the related field. Being who I am, with the qualifications I have, I rarely got any trouble to land a decent job with decent salary (6 digits a bare minimum in tbh) in the related field. Most of the so called digital nomad, SEO expert, coding guru, or whatever name; are usualy OR incompetent (at best not at the level they claim) OR lazy (unable to provide the amount of work a decent employer expect from employees) OR total fraud (sometimes the 3 at the same time).

LAst, being an old codger myself (or about, I prefer to define myself as old french fart), I found both pathetic and humoristic kids trying to explain me what life is about (they certainly did not pee where I did, and will never do so) , while on the same time trying to explain me what my work is about (digital nomad is anathema to most the specialities they claim to master). There are works that can be done remote (Sun promoted it, I believe Apple did it also at one time); but there are others that are not possible, depending too much of the local conditions of the network (and that is starter , easy to understand by layman people; obviously there is more to say about it, but it will become too much tech blahblah for that place).

So, in Thailand, the real Digital Nomad must be very very little, I would guess less than a hundred; and yes Immigration will turn a blind eye on them, because they make LOT of money to come here (and I do know it well, having the firt experience in 2003/2005 in Lopburi); here we are talking about well over 6 digits a month on a regulary basis. All the others, fighting to get a living at best in Thai standard (mean earning about 20 000) have no right , legaly AND moraly to claim for anything but the same as everyone. They get a visa allowing to do so, if there is not, then they shall move on; if they are high end residents I am quite sure LOT OF COUNTRIES will accept them .... In fact I do not even understand while they are still here, other expats do not love them, locals do not provide them with legal documentation, police want to expel them. Why are they still here??????????????

You may want to recount that figure my old codger of a friend, and also redefine what it means to be a digital nomad. You don't have to be a millionaire to be one, to sustain a house, food, a few luxuries is sufficient, I know of 4 such people myself here, and that's just who I know, so go back to the drawing board or take a nap

Nap? Wish I could, but I am at office working!

Anyway you made my point :

digital nomad , in your words, are people fighting to sustain survival (so barely a living by thai standard). Housing, few luxuries ...

Nothing here that will interest any countries in the world!

Furthermore, I am sure those people came here at first place because they were having the same kind of life at home (mean barely survival while being to lazy to improve their skills); am I right?

Last , I am still waiting for P.M. coming from one of those famed Digital Nomad, PM having his qualifications, said qualifications we would then compare with mines ...

Anyway, while it is normal to want the very best, One shall remember there is no such law written in stone; worst the only laws we all know (and in every countries, allow me to stress it out once more) seems to forbid such migration.

Why? Simply those are people looking to leave OUT THE GRID (mean pay no taxes, fully no national duty, break laws with regards to drugs, .... etc ... und so weiter ...) while searching to abuse said grid with regards to potential benefits (example, being digital nomad abroad until 65 y old, and then claim retirement benefit ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the other hand, well know, successful , well pay IT freelancers will not have any problems with Immigration and Police (under some conditions, such as having at least a tourist visa, doing some active and real support to locals communities such as doting a primary school with old computers ... be aware I am NOT talking tea money) ... But how many of your famed 25 y old (example) digital nomads so called big spenders are in fact fitting that bill?

One high level specialist may decide to find peace here, and so work remote from the jungle; but that high level specialist will do work in the range of 100 bucks an hour (that is the usual rate in rentacoder.com website for such an individual). Others are only drifters or tramps to use an old word from USA back in the 30'.

Being in that Industry long before they were born, or even long before their parents were born, I can swear the topic is far to be a new one. But everytime it goes to the same bottom line : Some fews are genuine, who need specific conditions to express their genius; most are lazy fraud trying to avoid their duty , duty to own country, resident country, fellow citizens, duty to their employers. The genuine ones will never ever (unless crazed governement, but it is not the case here) be bothered, they provide more than they cost; the others will be a plague for both their own country and the resident country; they will support nothing but their own 'alternate life style'.

Not believe me? Check that one, the website is owned (and being the only earned money of a digital nomad based in Bkk since 2001 ... very nomadic) http://lb-69.com.w3snoop.com/

expected earning are 35 us$ (thirty five) ???????????? Does it qualify for anything, but the name of drifter? Want any other example of those 'valued' digital nomads? I have tons ...

On the other hand, my boss (he weight millions in dollars) is always in and out of Thailand, never heard of him being bothered by Immigration.

You should get back to work!

Anyway enough to live at the level I stated is the baseline, there are areas from that to millionaire status you know.. And have you even elaborated on all of the possible internet industries?
>Freelance website design
>Freelance graphic design
>Freelance writer
>Ebay
>Etsy
>Behance
>Youtube
>Amazon
>Translator
>Online tutoring
>Online counseling
>Ebooks

Just to name a few

What an excellent list. I can understand why the views of immigration could be as stated by the officer in CM. BTW, my reading of what was said was that if a person was in-country on a tourist visa, they could carry on with their activities. Nothing more.

Now, as this subject (and a multitude of others) is about people wanting visas because they can use a keyboard, maybe write a bit of code, etc, can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand? Because I certainly can't see it at the minute.

Lets not forget that the arguments are being raised by folk who have no intension of going down the normal business path or are willing to go the elite card route.

I personally have nothing against people staying here by whatever means they can. I don't think that online business can be controlled by either immigration or the labour department as long as internet connections are available. But for the certain group that consider themselves separate from the rest of the herd and expect special treatment, please, have a word with yourselves, eh?

Edited August 21, 2014 by chrisinth

[deepcell]

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Let us say, a genuine tourist comes to Thailand for a few weeks. Most probably this tourist is a employee in his home country or he run his own business. While he stay in Thailand, he do some work online. Whatever... do conversations with clients, write blogs and so on. How could this be illegal?

But it is.. You sday how could it be ?? By writing the law and making it the law of the land.

Well well well ... Even if it is illegal and it is second to immigration. The truth is: nobody give a s*** about that. And you know why? Because immigration has no power to do nothing about this. Simple like that!
If the fella do not pay tax in his home country it must be cared only and exclusively by the home country, Thailand has nothing to do with this, and will never do, unless they can proof you are working online for a Thai company and it is illegal with no proper visa, bla bla bla..

Many freelancers earn money direct in his PayPal account or bitcoins, I wanna say one day he/she needs to withdrawn this money to one bank account, the government has access to you bank data, let's say you need to declare your earnings only above $US24K per /y and you fail to do, then you gotta a problem in your home country. What Thailand has to do with this???

I'm not law maker, but this subject look so mess, no proper visa, only authority authority and authority, no no no with no base, no foundations. That's it!!

Relax and keep working!

Cheers!

[monk213]

can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand?

Are you being serious? They live in Thailand, ok, following so far? They have custom from across the world via the internetz, often Western who pay them money AKA currency. They then go out and dispose of said currency into the economy, the money has come from abroad and was used to buy a service online, and ends up in the hands of the Thai's, khao jai na krup?

[somchai jones]

From an earlier post -

'The sanctimonious old codgers will continue to shout (where their ailing lungs allow) about their strict interpretation of the law and resentfully wish for the days of the 1900's when they were the only white man in town, and treated like the rare birds that they know themselves to be.'

Absurd but true! Absolute classic!!

[Soutpeel]

How would Thailand be able to demand, and enforce, the production of all income sources when those sources are from outside Thailand ??

One suggestion would be to set a 'min wage' under which taxes would need to be paid on the income even if not generated.. Say 60k a month min wages needed for this class and the the taxes for 60k as a minimum paid for each month the visa class is operated.

Another would be to demand accounting of all inward remittances and add 30% on top of that. sort of taxing the 'income' used in Thailand.. However again this would be VERY hard to police and also puts people in a position of being unable to afford taxes after spending the money.

Given that the salary level to get a Work Permit is only 50K baht, so why not make the taxable amount that, rather than 60K baht.

Depends on the nationality no.. Japanese Americans etc are 60.. Some others are 50 or 55.. Local Asians are a few 1000..

actually, there are no prescibed salary levels to be issued a WP, the salary "levels" stated are to do with your extension of stay, not your WP, the extension criteria is specified by immigration, not the DOL, if mimimum salaries were specified how would a volunteer get a a WP ?

[Christie Paul]

can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand?

Are you being serious? They live in Thailand, ok, following so far? They have custom from across the world via the internetz, often Western who pay them money AKA currency. They then go out and dispose of said currency into the economy, the money has come from abroad and was used to buy a service online, and ends up in the hands of the Thai's, khao jai na krup?

Velocity of money - even when earned from the local pool, contributes to the economy. It is in fact the biggest contributor for the economic well being of its citizens. If you closed all the shops, stopped all the services and prevented anyone from working -the amount of money would be the same - but poverty would ensure because velocity would plummet. A unit of currency would not serve anyones needs. But the more economic activity, the more currency serves, as the more hands it passes through.

Money coming from abroad is an added bonus.

[MrHammer]

A ray of hope that digital nomads and online workers are registering on the minds of Thai government. As others have said, it doesn't read like it changes much however. We all know that there has never been any problem working online on a tourist visa or getting a bank account or a driving license, but that doesn't change the fact that he is talking about tourist visas still, which is not what most online workers are interested in.

It is great that the younger (and older) digital nomads now can feel more legit on their 3-6 month trip to Thailand, but doesn't change the realities for those who would like to make Thailand their home and live there without constant visa runs. What is really needed is a complete overhaul of the business registration code to allow for the fact that Thailand is very popular with freelancers, online workers, online entrepreneurs etc. Decide if you want them in the country or not. Singapore doesn't mind them. Hong Kong don't mind them. Philippines and Cambodja don't mind. Thailand minds?

The business code is archaic and needs to change to match the modern reality of global software and internet companies.

[chrisinth]

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can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand?

Are you being serious? They live in Thailand, ok, following so far? They have custom from across the world via the internetz, often Western who pay them money AKA currency. They then go out and dispose of said currency into the economy, the money has come from abroad and was used to buy a service online, and ends up in the hands of the Thai's, khao jai na krup?

Ah, I see. The only contribution to Thailand is spending money on themselves. A little contribution to the local market. Regardless of how many customers around the world had, they would contribute no more than a regular tourist.

Otherwise, why don't they start a business in the first place?

Yet they would expect a visa for doing this? Methinks you overvalue the digital nomad. By lots....................

Mi khao jai krup

Edited August 21, 2014 by chrisinth

[monk213]

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can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand?

Are you being serious? They live in Thailand, ok, following so far? They have custom from across the world via the internetz, often Western who pay them money AKA currency. They then go out and dispose of said currency into the economy, the money has come from abroad and was used to buy a service online, and ends up in the hands of the Thai's, khao jai na krup?

Ah, I see. The only contribution to Thailand is spending money on themselves. A little contribution to the local market. Regardless of how many customers around the world had, they would contribute no more than a regular tourist.

Otherwise, why don't they start a business in the first place?

Yet they would expect a visa for doing this? Methinks you overvalue the digital nomad. By lots....................

Mi khao jai krup

And so what do retired people offer apart from money to this place? Same rules apply only the old farts get a visa

Edited August 21, 2014 by monk213

[anon676545345]

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can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand?

Are you being serious? They live in Thailand, ok, following so far? They have custom from across the world via the internetz, often Western who pay them money AKA currency. They then go out and dispose of said currency into the economy, the money has come from abroad and was used to buy a service online, and ends up in the hands of the Thai's, khao jai na krup?

Ah, I see. The only contribution to Thailand is spending money on themselves. A little contribution to the local market. Regardless of how many customers around the world had, they would contribute no more than a regular tourist.

Otherwise, why don't they start a business in the first place?

Yet they would expect a visa for doing this? Methinks you overvalue the digital nomad. By lots....................

Mi khao jai krup

This is really a mute point most westerners who reside here weather retired, married or working online contribute in the same way by bringing income in from abroad and using it to finance their lifestyle in Thailand, pay rent, support their families or parteners etc.

[monk213]

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can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand?

Are you being serious? They live in Thailand, ok, following so far? They have custom from across the world via the internetz, often Western who pay them money AKA currency. They then go out and dispose of said currency into the economy, the money has come from abroad and was used to buy a service online, and ends up in the hands of the Thai's, khao jai na krup?

Ah, I see. The only contribution to Thailand is spending money on themselves. A little contribution to the local market. Regardless of how many customers around the world had, they would contribute no more than a regular tourist.

Otherwise, why don't they start a business in the first place?

Yet they would expect a visa for doing this? Methinks you overvalue the digital nomad. By lots....................

Mi khao jai krup

This is really a mute point most westerners who reside here weather retired, married or working online contribute in the same way by bringing income in from abroad and using it to finance their lifestyle in Thailand, pay rent, support their families or parteners etc.

Thank you voice of reason

[MrHammer]

Lets say conservatively that someone consumes 100.000 a month, with 7% VAT that is 7000 paid a month in taxes. We should then factor that the person who got the money will pay taxes on that money in the form of either business tax, personal income tax or VAT again in the form of consumption. I am not going to make that calculation now, but you money being earned abroad and spent in Thailand is what any economist would wish for. It is quite literally the best kind of situation there is for a country.

[Christie Paul]

A ray of hope that digital nomads and online workers are registering on the minds of Thai government. As others have said, it doesn't read like it changes much however. We all know that there has never been any problem working online on a tourist visa or getting a bank account or a driving license, but that doesn't change the fact that he is talking about tourist visas still, which is not what most online workers are interested in.

It is great that the younger (and older) digital nomads now can feel more legit on their 3-6 month trip to Thailand, but doesn't change the realities for those who would like to make Thailand their home and live there without constant visa runs. What is really needed is a complete overhaul of the business registration code to allow for the fact that Thailand is very popular with freelancers, online workers, online entrepreneurs etc. Decide if you want them in the country or not. Singapore doesn't mind them. Hong Kong don't mind them. Philippines and Cambodja don't mind. Thailand minds?

The business code is archaic and needs to change to match the modern reality of global software and internet companies.

Yep, yep and yep.

The old government parasitic business models of gatekeeping and rent seeking, predicated on arbitrary lines drawn on a map, is drawing to a close.

Capital, ideas and work are becoming increasingly borderless. Governments that see the future clearly are opening their borders and their people are befitting from economic movement.

Once upon a time Thailand and Hong Kong where neck and neck, fiercely competing to be the leader in the jewellery trade. Hong Kong had higher over heads and less skilled labor and less access to raw materials. Despite its advantages Thailand lost - the jewellery business is almost dead here now. Hong Kong won because the government didn't get in the way. Thailand lost because of its horrendous bureaucracy and consequently lost thousands of skilled jobs and vast investments. The annual Thai Gem and Jewellery Show is now virtually a non event.

If Thailand wants to be a burgeoning IT and online trade hub, then don't attack, harass, tie up in red tape, complicate and bugger it up for people whose main aim is to be relevant, in a competitive business. If of course you'd prefer that your young people worked in bars, as taxi drivers and waiters - then make it as difficult as possible. Looks like there's not going to be any shortage of domestic help and exotic dancers anytime soon.

[monk213]

Lets say conservatively that someone consumes 100.000 a month, with 7% VAT that is 7000 paid a month in taxes. We should then factor that the person who got the money will pay taxes on that money in the form of either business tax, personal income tax or VAT again in the form of consumption. I am not going to make that calculation now, but you money being earned abroad and spent in Thailand is what any economist would wish for. It is quite literally the best kind of situation there is for a country.

And I am sure if there was a system in place that was crystal clear with a visa to boot, many people would not mind paying the tax

[TheSiemReaper]

Lets say conservatively that someone consumes 100.000 a month, with 7% VAT that is 7000 paid a month in taxes. We should then factor that the person who got the money will pay taxes on that money in the form of either business tax, personal income tax or VAT again in the form of consumption. I am not going to make that calculation now, but you money being earned abroad and spent in Thailand is what any economist would wish for. It is quite literally the best kind of situation there is for a country.

And I am sure if there was a system in place that was crystal clear with a visa to boot, many people would not mind paying the tax

I am happy to pay tax anywhere as long as my taxes entitle me to all the rights and privileges of any ordinary citizen of that nation - excluding a vote (not that it turns out that voting is very useful in Thailand any way). Thailand does not provide that environment and I won't pay taxes there until does. Second rate anti-farang legal system does nothing to make me want to. The whole 51% Thai ownership of a business criteria is a joke. I don't mind not being allowed to own land but I'm sure as shit not handing over control of my business to anyone else. Cambodia on the other hand gleefully extends pretty much all the same rights (none) to expats as it does to citizens. Sadly, as the government here takes all the tax money and sends it to Switzerland - I don't see much benefit in paying tax on this side of the border either.

[chrisinth]

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can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand?

Are you being serious? They live in Thailand, ok, following so far? They have custom from across the world via the internetz, often Western who pay them money AKA currency. They then go out and dispose of said currency into the economy, the money has come from abroad and was used to buy a service online, and ends up in the hands of the Thai's, khao jai na krup?

Ah, I see. The only contribution to Thailand is spending money on themselves. A little contribution to the local market. Regardless of how many customers around the world had, they would contribute no more than a regular tourist.

Otherwise, why don't they start a business in the first place?

Yet they would expect a visa for doing this? Methinks you overvalue the digital nomad. By lots....................

Mi khao jai krup

This is really a mute point most westerners who reside here weather retired, married or working online contribute in the same way by bringing income in from abroad and using it to finance their lifestyle in Thailand, pay rent, support their families or parteners etc.

I don't think it is a moot point at all.

My question is what makes them any different than a normal person under 50 who wants to stay in Thailand for a long period?

This is what I don't get. All you would be doing is creating another loophole for whoever wanted to class themselves as a digital nomad.

You all need to join the real world for a while, IMHO.

[LivinLOS]

I am happy to pay tax anywhere as long as my taxes entitle me to all the rights and privileges of any ordinary citizen of that nation - excluding a vote (not that it turns out that voting is very useful in Thailand any way). Thailand does not provide that environment and I won't pay taxes there until does.

And so goes the ever moving goalposts..

First its if only there was a way.. Then iglu and umbrella companies came along..

Then its but thats got restrictions.. I want..

then its but thats 30% why should I..

and now we get only if I have full citizenship rights for my meagre contribution...

[monk213]

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can you please explain for me how anybody participating in any of the above examples will be contributing to Thailand?

Are you being serious? They live in Thailand, ok, following so far? They have custom from across the world via the internetz, often Western who pay them money AKA currency. They then go out and dispose of said currency into the economy, the money has come from abroad and was used to buy a service online, and ends up in the hands of the Thai's, khao jai na krup?

Ah, I see. The only contribution to Thailand is spending money on themselves. A little contribution to the local market. Regardless of how many customers around the world had, they would contribute no more than a regular tourist.

Otherwise, why don't they start a business in the first place?

Yet they would expect a visa for doing this? Methinks you overvalue the digital nomad. By lots....................

Mi khao jai krup

This is really a mute point most westerners who reside here weather retired, married or working online contribute in the same way by bringing income in from abroad and using it to finance their lifestyle in Thailand, pay rent, support their families or parteners etc.

I don't think it is a moot point at all.

My question is what makes them any different than a normal person under 50 who wants to stay in Thailand for a long period?

This is what I don't get. All you would be doing is creating another loophole for whoever wanted to class themselves as a digital nomad.

You all need to join the real world for a while, IMHO.

There is no difference apart from the fact that there will be established income guaranteed, and anyway why should there be a difference? If they can offer as much as any other farang who conforms to the laws and deposits into the economy, why should there be a difference? Do you have a stone in your shoe?

[monk213]

I am happy to pay tax anywhere as long as my taxes entitle me to all the rights and privileges of any ordinary citizen of that nation - excluding a vote (not that it turns out that voting is very useful in Thailand any way). Thailand does not provide that environment and I won't pay taxes there until does.

And so goes the ever moving goalposts..

First its if only there was a way.. Then iglu and umbrella companies came along..

Then its but thats got restrictions.. I want..

then its but thats 30% why should I..

and now we get only if I have full citizenship rights for my meagre contribution...

Since when have farang ever had a say in the laws and haggled with the powers that be? If everything was crystal and the rules were actually LOGICAL as in, we wouldn't have to employ 4 Thai nationals etc, then I see no problem. It seriously is a win win for Thailand and they are missing out and will miss out, it has been mentioned by many people in this thread already.

[TheSiemReaper]

I am happy to pay tax anywhere as long as my taxes entitle me to all the rights and privileges of any ordinary citizen of that nation - excluding a vote (not that it turns out that voting is very useful in Thailand any way). Thailand does not provide that environment and I won't pay taxes there until does.

And so goes the ever moving goalposts..

First its if only there was a way.. Then iglu and umbrella companies came along..

Then its but thats got restrictions.. I want..

then its but thats 30% why should I..

and now we get only if I have full citizenship rights for my meagre contribution...

No moving goalposts at all. If you come to my country and pay tax - you get all the same rights as I do. That's fair; it's why you pay tax - to be treated equally under law with all the same benefits as other taxpayers. You don't get to vote because you're not a citizen (though stay for 7 years and you can become one - that's international law).

My taxes are not a "meagre contribution"; based on Thailand's tax rates - I'd be kicking in 100-200K Baht a month in income tax. That's more than most Thais will contribute in their whole lives in tax. You can bet I want something back for my investment in Thailand at that point.

[jitenshaman]

Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

You use the streets in Thailand. You drink the water in Thailand. You are protected by the police and military in Thailand. You use Thailand's roads and mass transit. You are protected from having a building fall on you by Thai building inspectors. Thai health department money protects you from Ebola and scads of other threats, whether you know it or not. Thai money kills the mosquitoes so you don't get dengue. The list goes on and on.

All that costs money, and yours is going to the UK where it doesn't do the Thai people much benefit.

You pay 7% VAT on the stuff you buy here. That doesn't come close to covering your share of the wear and tear on the infrastructure.

You pump some money into the economy. Thai's that earn the same money to pump into the economy also pump a lot more into the tax coffers.

You're getting a free ride in Thailand, and that's the issue. I love visitors to my home. So do the Thai's. But if my guests plan to stay for 10 years, they probably ought to chip in some rent and put some food into the fridge occasionally.

If you disagree with that, I dare you to go to the Revenue Department back home and claim you pump so much money into the economy that you shouldn't be required to pay taxes on top of your VAT, GST or sales tax.

Complete and utter rubbish. I have worked freelance here, been paid by Thai companies, who take tax out of my payment, the same tax that they take out of their other Thai employees payment...only difference is that a Thai, at least some of them in some situations, can walk into a hospital or an insurance building, and claim for whatever payment they are covered under or think they have right to.. some of their companies give them insurance, many of them pay bonuses. As a foreigner, I don't get any of those. If I need health care, I pay cash, if I need police protection (what a laugh), I pay cash, I do not get any benefits whatsoever, I pay cash. So I get nothing for the taxes I pay. But I don't gripe about it because that's just the way it is...the same way that I pay taxes in the US, deriving some of my income from there and as a US citizen, and yet I don't receive a single benefit from the government there (as I do not live there). There are plenty of people living here who pour loads of money into the economy here, probably doing far more good than anybody's tax money is doing. Somehow, I don't think the Thai government uses tax money here to create good affordable public transport (BTS and MRT running on tax money??), health care for everyone, police that people actually turn to in a crisis,......hmmm, so I guess anyone who lives here on a retirement visa, on a marriage visa, on an education visa, and even those who are here for more than 6 months a year on double entry tourist visas with extensions, all of whom don't pay tax, well they must be just putting such a strain on the infrastructure...damn, no wonder the roads flood, the country has some of the worst traffic accident stats on the planet, buildings fall down not adhering to code, and the police remain corrupt. As usual, all us farangs fault...except of course those who are paying their tax......