does the fuse box need an earth...quick answer please

[HughJass]

electric going to house is two wire

safety cut box is fitted ...all sockets in house are two pin

I have asked electrician to fit a ground rod and connect to fuse box

he says it doesn't need it as the sockets are only two pin

is this correct?

[PiPiFFS]

Yes he is correct. Unless you have run an earth wire to all sockets then nothing is going to be earthed. I'm sure Crossy will pop up and give it to you in proper electrical terms

[Forkinhades]

Tell him you want an earth installed, and the 2 pin sockets changed to 3 pin.

Info on the pinned threads.

[HughJass]

thanks guys....this is my g/f parents house which has had a safety cut box fitted and a ground rod attached to both the washing machine and shower.....I am not going to have the whole house rewired to ground each socket but wanted to know how safe it is with a set up like this

[Crossy]

Separate rod for the shower isn't ideal, but it's far, far better than no rod.

Don't set the Safe-T-Cut to 'Direct' and you will be fine.

[Forkinhades]

Non helpful post removed

[wvavin]

Mates, just be extremely careful when dealing with the local electrical wiring setup. As for me, I still feel unsafe whether in office or home.

[xtrnuno41]

you dont need to rewire all , just add an extra grounding cable in all pipes to sockets.

And ofcourse change all the sockets.

you can as well use an earth leakage detector, then you dont have to change a thing in the pipes and sockets.

You put it in the fuse box in the mainpower supply.

It will switch off with an earth leakage of 30 ma.

[searayman]

If it is only 2 pin meaning there is no ground.

(2 pin = 1 is live or 230V and the other is Neutral)

If you need ground, have to install the 3rd ground wire and change out all the outlets from 2 pin outlets to 3 pin outlets

all the ground wire from the 3rd pin will be route to the breaker box and tie in together inside (grounding bar) then a jumper cable to ground rod 32 inches into ground

Best way is install a 50 Amp incoming power main breaker follow by 32 Amp. with 30 mA earth leak circuit breaker then individual 10 amp circuit breaker.

If in doubt, please goggle it.

hope this help.

[avander]

you dont need to rewire all , just add an extra grounding cable in all pipes to sockets.

And ofcourse change all the sockets.

you can as well use an earth leakage detector, then you dont have to change a thing in the pipes and sockets.

You put it in the fuse box in the mainpower supply.

It will switch off with an earth leakage of 30 ma.

I'm no sparky and very nervous in my place also.

There was no earthing installed when we moved in and have to say I was a little ignorant about how bad things can be here.

We have since had some "appliances" grounded separately but I'm not convinced it is enough or if it even works.

Very interested in this earth leakage detector. Would really appreciate some more info such as basics of what it does, a rough cost and if you know where I can purchase please. I'm in the Pattaya area.

*** Sorry folks, thread was active when I posted this and I saw more info after I posted.

Edited September 11, 2014 by avander

[rijb]

Excuse my ignorance. But, could the Op sink a ground rod and connect it to the neutral in the safety box?

[searayman]

The Neutral cannot and must not be connect to grounding rod (grounding rod)

Neutral is a return path for volt / live through connecting appliances, this return is to make a complete circuit

if you connect neutral to grounding rod…….the result will be volt which is 230V becoming 115V

This region is 230V and 115V is seriously under volt. or Volt shorted to ground. …...

[Crossy]

The Neutral cannot and must not be connect to grounding rod (grounding rod)

Neutral is a return path for volt / live through connecting appliances, this return is to make a complete circuit

if you connect neutral to grounding rod…….the result will be volt which is 230V becoming 115V

This region is 230V and 115V is seriously under volt. or Volt shorted to ground. …...

I suggest you look into TNC-S with MEN or PME before making such a statement.

HINT - Both connect the ground and neutral at the service head or inside the consumer unit, neutral is grounded at the transformer (except for IT connection).

MEN is an absolute requirement in Australia (AS3000 refers), and is now expected here in Thailand for new installations.

[searayman]

you dont need to rewire all , just add an extra grounding cable in all pipes to sockets.

And ofcourse change all the sockets.

you can as well use an earth leakage detector, then you dont have to change a thing in the pipes and sockets.

You put it in the fuse box in the mainpower supply.

It will switch off with an earth leakage of 30 ma.

To do this please confirm the pipe in which are to be use as grounding is made of metal tubing and have continuity. PVC pipe will not work.

hope this help.

[Crossy]

Those looking to provide a ground and RCBO protection that will meet the MEA/PEA inspector's requirements should have a look at this PEA document (yes, it's in Thai, but there are pictures) http://www.crossy.co.uk/Handy%20Files/groundwire.pdf

[Muhendis]

If it is only 2 pin meaning there is no ground.

(2 pin = 1 is live or 230V and the other is Neutral)

If you need ground, have to install the 3rd ground wire and change out all the outlets from 2 pin outlets to 3 pin outlets

all the ground wire from the 3rd pin will be route to the breaker box and tie in together inside (grounding bar) then a jumper cable to ground rod 32 inches into ground

Best way is install a 50 Amp incoming power main breaker follow by 32 Amp. with 30 mA earth leak circuit breaker then individual 10 amp circuit breaker.

If in doubt, please goggle it.

hope this help.

This question of ground/earth has been raised many times. The Neutral incoming is connected to earth at many places (every fifth post) and should also be connected to an earth rod from your fuse box. The third earth pin is nice to have because imported appliances may have three pin plugs. I personally feel more comfortable with a separate earth to each socket outlet back to the fuse box so my house is wired accordingly.

[KhnomKhnom]

Separate rod for the shower isn't ideal, but it's far, far better than no rod.

Don't set the Safe-T-Cut to 'Direct' and you will be fine.

Yes a separate ground rod for the shower and washing machine is not the absolute best, but is a danger only if a person can touch both the shower water running and the washing machine at the same time. Even then, if the ground on both is real.... obtained with a 6ft to 8ft ground rod set in real earth* ... there should be absolute no danger. That slim danger is eliminated by wiring the two rods together.

The idea is the very slim chance that one of the ground rods presents a "better ground" than the other thus creating the chance for a voltage path.

*A potential problem never mentioned here is the rather good chance of your driving in a ground rod and it not touching earth...... note this situation.......

1. You drill through your stone or concrete floor and put the rod down there, but there is a chance that the earth has eroded away from that spot under your slab (pier and beam can be under there but dirt could have sunk away)....... then the rod just sits there not touching earth.

2. You drill through your concrete and tile outdoor floor that touches where your house bottom wall has the outdoor concrete against and surrounding that spot where you install the rod. Again, under the outdoor concrete slab, the earth may have sunk and your rod will be in free air although under the concrete.

[KhnomKhnom]

Excuse my ignorance. But, could the Op sink a ground rod and connect it to the neutral in the safety box?

NO NO NO NO........... DO NOT GROUND THE NEUTRAL WIRE...... The neutral is the other wire in the pair of wires connected to your two-pin sockets.

The neutral wire is supposed to be grounded only at the supply, step down transformer mounted high on poles and owned by the electric company. One of several bad results of you grounding your home neutral is your ground may be "better" than the electric co.'s is.

In that case, you are providing a neutral grounding to all your neighbors on your side of the company's transformer; not good for you.

Note, your neutral is going through your meter and could be spinning faster if a fault current is present on the consumer side of the supply transformer. Thus your cost could be artificially high and you could obtain bad voltage on YOUR ground. Just do not ground your home neutral.

[KhnomKhnom]

Hugh, in a properly wired home electric system, your electrical breaker "fuse" box is metal and has the supply two wires coming in and other two wire pairs going out to all the rest of your home.

There is no real need to grounding the breaker box metal case, but if all is installed correctly, there is no harm.

If you did ground the metal case and IF there is any kind of mistaken leakage to that metal box, then the grounded box will just divert some of your incoming power to your box ground and waste power but keep you safe from accidentally touching the metal box itself.

It is much better to have all hot and neutral wires correctly wired.

[KhnomKhnom]

The Neutral cannot and must not be connect to grounding rod (grounding rod)

Neutral is a return path for volt / live through connecting appliances, this return is to make a complete circuit

if you connect neutral to grounding rod…….the result will be volt which is 230V becoming 115V

This region is 230V and 115V is seriously under volt. or Volt shorted to ground. …...

You can not obtain 115VAC this way. This is Thailand.

In a properly installed two wire system, you should measure 220-240VAC from the hot wire to a real earth ground.

In a properly installed two wire system, you should measure 220-240VAC from the hot wire to the neutral wire.

In a properly installed two wire system, you should measure about 10VAC from the neutral wire to a real earth ground.

[KhnomKhnom]

thanks guys....this is my g/f parents house which has had a safety cut box fitted and a ground rod attached to both the washing machine and shower.....I am not going to have the whole house rewired to ground each socket but wanted to know how safe it is with a set up like this

I typed a long answer to this and that disappeared?

[HerbalEd]

Be aware ... and beware ... that virtually all grounding rods used in Thailand (if there's one at all) are most often very poor quality .... to save money of course.

I've just hired a proper Belgian electrical engineer to diagnose my house's entire electrical system and make appropriate repairs and upgrades .... including a grounding (aka earthing) rod ... and a system to deal with lightening strikes. The grounding rod is 100% solid copper (not copper coated), is two meters long, and 90% will be driven into the ground. And, yes, it's expensive but my, and my family's, safety is much more valuable.

Is this overkill? Maybe, but I don't care.

BTW, a month ago I had a lightening strike that fried a circuit board in my 95" and 65" flat-panel TVs and an expensive sound bar. Fortunately they were fixed for fee and all is well again.

Edited September 11, 2014 by HerbalEd

[saramsland]

I think all (Crossy obviously is an exception) should understand what a voltage potential is and how a difference in potential can occur. Then understand a MEN Circuit... Then think twice before adding and joining wires.

Simply connecting a ground wire to ground at a socket will duplicate a return path for the current and not halve the voltage. Some large electrical installations involving harmonics can see an earth circuit carey a current in operation due to those harmonics however in domestic installations an earth is designed to only carry current in a fault situation.. And to quickly cause te problem circuit to be isolated to prevent further short circuit or other damage. Google/Youtube a key word like 'fault current' and you may see the aftermath of incorrect wiring or failure of switchgear. Yes an ELCB detects a missing magnetic field therefore a missing current. A current passing in both directions through a torriod will cancel a resultant magnetic field (every electrical cable produces a rotating magetic flux in one direction).. Therefore when current passes through an earth circuit the neutral then holds no current hence no magnetic field & the active wire's magnetic field operates the ELCB internal trip device. Depending on where your main earth/grounding point is, connecting ground and neutral wires at sockets will either produce constant nuisance trip's or cause your ELCB to never actually operate. This is why a MEN point is crucial to be wired correctly.

Domestic electrical wiring can be basic to do however there is still good reason for electrical workers to achieve a license.

Crossy.. Sadly it will never happen but Thailand could benefit from an electrical mind like your own

[saramsland]

The Neutral cannot and must not be connect to grounding rod (grounding rod)

Neutral is a return path for volt / live through connecting appliances, this return is to make a complete circuit

if you connect neutral to grounding rod.the result will be volt which is 230V becoming 115V

This region is 230V and 115V is seriously under volt. or Volt shorted to ground. ...

You can not obtain 115VAC this way. This is Thailand.

In a properly installed two wire system, you should measure 220-240VAC from the hot wire to a real earth ground.

In a properly installed two wire system, you should measure 220-240VAC from the hot wire to the neutral wire.

In a properly installed two wire system, you should measure about 10VAC from the neutral wire to a real earth ground.

Different countries have different regs but really to be testing the MEN it should be done with an ohmmeter ensuring that is does not exceed a maximum resistance. Along with an insulation test as well of course...

[rijb]

Excuse my ignorance. But, could the Op sink a ground rod and connect it to the neutral in the safety box?

NO NO NO NO........... DO NOT GROUND THE NEUTRAL WIRE...... The neutral is the other wire in the pair of wires connected to your two-pin sockets.

The neutral wire is supposed to be grounded only at the supply, step down transformer mounted high on poles and owned by the electric company. One of several bad results of you grounding your home neutral is your ground may be "better" than the electric co.'s is.

In that case, you are providing a neutral grounding to all your neighbors on your side of the company's transformer; not good for you.

Note, your neutral is going through your meter and could be spinning faster if a fault current is present on the consumer side of the supply transformer. Thus your cost could be artificially high and you could obtain bad voltage on YOUR ground. Just do not ground your home neutral.

I didn't appreciate the yelling. But, you did answer my question.

[mango66]

Never connect the N ( null ) with the ground !! if you have installed a grounding system;

Any metall housing should be coneected to the grounding, not separate a ground wire to ground,

but over a 3 pole connecting cable;

Today you will also find in Thailand,

that washing machines and water heater habe a grounding inside,

and also a clamp where u connect the 3rd grounding wire;

Just a 3 wire cable is difficult to find in the shop,

anyway in home installations you use 3 wires in the pipe;

some cooking machines, or simple elrctrical devices which completely sealed

by a plastic housing, dont have any parts inside which could be grounded;

Bath tubs and any metal pipe which leads water rto a boiler,

should be grounded, in most countries -or maybee all EU must be grounded;

a 2 meter pole might not always be sufficiant,

you have to measure the grounding resistance by an Ohm meter;

and frequently test the current leak trip!!

It is the test which showes you if a defect carrent will reach 30mA,

power - voltage will be switched off instantly;

Be reminded ! Not the Voltage kills you !

Its the current which flows trough your body and special trough your heart,

usualyy 50 to 60 mA can cause your death already !!

I am an certified el engineer and do hospital save installations for more than 30 years !

Europe, Asia, Afr, SA;

In the drawing and instaruction which were mentioned in one post,

showes also a " Incorrect installation !!!

The Null bar is connected to the ground - this will make a mailfunction to your current leak safety trip !!

[Wat dee]

All these posts!!Can't sleep or shower

[Crossy]

Some interesting opinions here.

A few points to ponder.

For our North American and mainland European friends - Thailand's LV distribution system is three-phase 4-wire, 220V phase-neutral, 380V phase-phase, neutral grounded at the transformer star point and (theoretically) at every third pole or so.

For those saying never connect neutral to ground - Familiarise yourself with the different grounding systems here:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system then understand that Thailand is either TT (older systems) or TNC-S with MEN (or PME for the Brits) which is required for new installations if they are to pass the MEA / PEA inspection.

For those alarmed by the Thai connection of passing the incoming neutral via the ground bar before it gets to the RCD - That's the way MEN is implemented here and is very similar to the NEC method used in the US. Look in the PEA Groundwire document I linked to earlier, the wiring sheet of any of the house plans here http://www.crossy.co.uk/Thai_House_Plans/ or the instructions of any Safe-T-Cut device or consumer unit bought here.

As others have noted, things may be different in your home country, what applies there may not be relevant or may even be hazardous here (classic example is the UK ring final).

What IS universal are good installation and testing practices, bring those with you to the Thai environment and we will all sleep safer.

[crazykopite]

Tell your electrician you would rather have an earthed system might cost a little bit more but at least it would be safer you would have to make sure all your sockets were three pin with an earth wire

[jacko45k]

you dont need to rewire all , just add an extra grounding cable in all pipes to sockets.

And ofcourse change all the sockets.

you can as well use an earth leakage detector, then you dont have to change a thing in the pipes and sockets.

You put it in the fuse box in the mainpower supply.

It will switch off with an earth leakage of 30 ma.

I'm no sparky and very nervous in my place also.

There was no earthing installed when we moved in and have to say I was a little ignorant about how bad things can be here.

We have since had some "appliances" grounded separately but I'm not convinced it is enough or if it even works.

Very interested in this earth leakage detector. Would really appreciate some more info such as basics of what it does, a rough cost and if you know where I can purchase please. I'm in the Pattaya area.

*** Sorry folks, thread was active when I posted this and I saw more info after I posted.

Homeworks on Sukhumvit, near Tai.

Homepro in BigC-X Mall, Klang.

Simply it detects if the current flow is different in the neutral (return) line than the live feed (imbalance). The presumption being that there must be flow to ground somewhere in the circuit, the device is designed to open the supply..

Edited September 12, 2014 by jacko45k