BOX JELLYFISH in the Gulf

[misterphil]

I watched a documentary on jelly fish stings before, and they recommended to use a plastic scraper such as a credit card to scrape all of the stingers out of the skin.

[h90]

That doesn't make sense: "I believe that Lemmens has stated that it can all depend on the type of jellyfish, but who is going to take time to correctly identify the creature. Just do not take the chance to use Vinegar."

Does vinegar help or does it not help with the Box Jellyfish?

If it helps with the BJ but not with others than it should be used. The worst that can happen it was another animal and the vinegar doesn't do much.

It makes sense.

" according to Queensland, Australian jellyfish experts, Vinegar can in some cases only inflame the situation. ".

And the OP is saying can an affected person or his aid-givers afford the time to go and identify exactly what jellyfish is responsible?

if it is any other less harmful animal and the vinegar makes the problem a bit worse than this is nothing in compare that it can safes life.

And in some cases you see it when it stings you.

So it is nonsense...they should clearly say in which cases the vinegar helps and in which not and don't treat the people like idiots on something so critical.

Read this and other articles included, especially the Resuscitation Council article..

The most common stings are bluebottles, which hurt, but don't kill. They usually float on the surface of the water or are washed up on beach but can still sting. They are coloured bright blue and easy to see. Irukandji are about as big as a thumb nail and almost transparent.

If someone is stung, you haven't got time to try and identify the jellyfish concerned.

Obviously, research is still under way.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-08/vinegar-makes-box-jellyfish-stings-worse-aust-researchers/5374274

would advocate for vinegar if you don't know. As it doesn't harm if it is wrong.

[seajae]

I can imagine it would be very dangerous to try and milk a Badger.

It is and the Greek Badgers are some of the most dangerous in the world, hence the reason Costas AKA Colin, is our resident expert on the lost art of Greek Badger milking.

His next challange is to attempt to milk a Honey Badger, know worldwide, as being the most dangereous badger of them all, in fact I have it on good authority that Costas has a trip planned to Zimbabwe shortly at the invitation of Uncle Bob himself to attempt milking his first honey badger, a venture not to be taken lightly

I actually think Costas should be taught how to milk a drop bear, extremely nasty little buggers and greatly feared so their milk would have to be pretty potent.

[oldsailor35]

Regarding the use of Vinegar,it should be noticed that as more and more research is carried out things change, especially in the medical world.

For generations now the use of vinegar has been believed to be the correct treatment, ever since it was first used and documented back in about 1910 in Hawaii.

Recent research, using up to date equipment at the James Cook University and Cairns hospital in far north Queensland have discovered that the use of vinegar promotes the discharge of Box Jelly Fish Venom !

Prof Jamie Seymour , Australian Institute of Tropical medicine says that by using vinegar you can increase the venom load on the victim by 50%. No venomous animal on the planet kills quicker than this creature.

There is no firm evidence whatsoever that the application of vinegar decreases the loading of venom into the victim.

They have found that this is how it works.

On contact, sting balls are fired off by the tentacles. On the application of vinegar, the sting balls not fired become inactive ( good, but too late). However the sting balls already fired which might be only 20% to 30% of those available, when hit by the vinegar immediately increase the venom output by 60%. This is why the use of vinegar will increase the danger. Do not use vinegar.

It was found that application of hot water, inactivated the sting balls, both those already fired and those not. Thus minimizing the amount of venom to the victim.

In light of this properly researched information, i think that the "old wives" cures should really be ignored.

Edited August 30, 2014 by oldsailor35

[oldsailor35]

I watched a documentary on jelly fish stings before, and they recommended to use a plastic scraper such as a credit card to scrape all of the stingers out of the skin.

Yes, that or a razor or tweezers, but be very very wary of using bare fingers, those sting balls will attack any part of your body.

[oldsailor35]

Back in the old days in Greece, people used to apply Imodium when they were stank by a jelly fish and used to pee on the spot you were stank by a bee.

Used to work then, but then there are so many kinds of different jelly fish.

Costas, i would have thought applying badger milk to the affected areas more useful ?.... your thoughts as you are our resident expert on all things badger

Badger Beer from an old Dorset UK brewery might help, after a few pints.

[Thongkorn]

Usually some one urine is useful but in case of box jellyfish an antidote promptly is a MUST and should be available in each hotel and or in each family bags to the beach....

peeing on somone was what I was always told as well, something to do with the ammonia in urea and male pee works better than female, although if it was me that was stung, think I would rather have the golden shower from the young lady, even if its not as effective...

The above works with leaches in the Jungle, You know you have a good mate when he pisses on you,

[oldsailor35]

Blue bottle stings are not so bad, however they can feel like someone is applying a lighted cigarette to ones skin. I remember many years ago having a family day out on Bribie Island SE Qld. my 7 yr old son was swimming and suddenly started screaming. I rushed in to get him, he leapt out of the water covered in Blue bottle tenacles, onto my chest so many came off onto me, boy did they burn.

[RecklessRon]

I just saw a TV show that looked at the best options for treating jellyfish strings.

They found NO evidence that urine or vinegar helped and there are times when it aggravates the wound.

Their advice was to scrape off all the stingers (they recommend a credit card) and then rince and wash the area with normal soap - treating it as a wound.

You can take an anti-inflammatory with pain killer (they said like paracetamol) if desired.

Also they said to expect scraping the stinger off to hurt!

Update: It was: So You Think You'd Survive S01E03 Avalanches and Jellyfish

free from: http://mightyupload.com/2fku2pwmo051

Edited August 30, 2014 by RecklessRon

[seajae]

WARNING: the original post by the op on this subject may well be wrong and could cause death if adhered to, the leading Australian specialist on jelly fish stings who is world reknown has stated that vinegar is the best thing to use and that hot water(fresh water) and ice as well as alkaline urine can cause death because they cause the stingers to release the other 90% of their venom(only 10% in the first set of stings) which in turn can cause death so never use hot water/fresh water/ice or alkaline urine on them, vinegar stops the stingers from releasing this lethal dose of venom that is why it is recomended. Further information can be found on the aussie ABC website. Acidic urine will only have a 25% success rate of vinegar, there are differing opinions on this subject but this is by one of the leading experts reknowned around the world and head of the advisory board in Australia on stings at the CSIRO, somehow I trhink this lady would be the one to listen to.

Edited August 30, 2014 by seajae

[Rooo]

Moving to Health now.

There is also another topic on the subject here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/754874-koh-pha-ngan-authorities-issue-box-jellyfish-warning/

[oldsailor35]

WARNING: the original post by the op on this subject may well be wrong and could cause death if adhered to, the leading Australian specialist on jelly fish stings who is world reknown has stated that vinegar is the best thing to use and that hot water(fresh water) and ice as well as alkaline urine can cause death because they cause the stingers to release the other 90% of their venom(only 10% in the first set of stings) which in turn can cause death so never use hot water/fresh water/ice or alkaline urine on them, vinegar stops the stingers from releasing this lethal dose of venom that is why it is recomended. Further information can be found on the aussie ABC website. Acidic urine will only have a 25% success rate of vinegar, there are differing opinions on this subject but this is by one of the leading experts reknowned around the world and head of the advisory board in Australia on stings at the CSIRO, somehow I trhink this lady would be the one to listen to.

It is so easy to say "leading Australian specialist" "Experts renowned around the world" "head of advisory board in Australia" This means sweet FA ! I am quoting from 'Named' professionals and definative Australian Research Bodies, also Cairns Hospital, not vaguely described entities who remain anonymous . These experiments and results are all described, so i prefer to listen to those who are prepared to back themselves in public. Take for example the results of the Hot water experiment. I think that you are quoting from long out dated information. Yes Vinegar can help by restricting the discharge of sting balls, but by now it is too late and the vinegar will increase the venom discharge by 60% into the victim from the sting balls already fired. Hot water stops everything. Why does this not make sense to you. And why do you persist in the denigration of the work of these experts. Are you yourself some kind of an expert who can over ride their findings proving them wrong by your own knowledgeable experiments. What are your qualifications in this field.

Edited August 31, 2014 by oldsailor35

[khunPer]

Please take a look at some facts, better than “fighting”…

The report and study in question of ”Chironex fleckeri” or Sea wasp or Box Jellyfish treatment seems to be a smaller Australian in-vitro (laboratory experiment in glass) examination, which means that it has not been observed from live box jellyfish and humans.

The conclusion “suggests” and “raises concern”…

(Sic)

Diving Hyperb Med. 2014 Mar;44(1):30-4.

An in-vitro examination of the effect of vinegar on discharged nematocysts of Chironex fleckeri.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE:

To determine the effect acetic acid (vinegar) has on discharged nematocysts in a simulated sting from Chironex fleckeri.

METHOD:

This research was performed in 2 parts: 1 C. fleckeri tentacles placed on amniotic membrane were electrically stimulated, and venom washings collected before and after application of vinegar. Lyophilised venom washings were run through a fast-performance protein liquid chromatography column to confirm the venom profile, with a quantitative measure of venom from each washing calculated using UNICORN™ software. 2 The toxicity of the washings was determined by application to human cardiomyocytes, with percentage of cell detachment providing a measure of cell mortality, and hence toxicity.

RESULTS:

Part 1: There was a 69 ± 32% (F = 77, P < 0.001) increase in venom discharge after vinegar was applied compared to post electrical stimulation. Part 2: Venom collected after the administration of vinegar demonstrated the same toxicity as venom from electrically stimulated C. fleckeri tentacles and milked venom, causing cell mortality of 59 ± 13% at 10 µg ml⁻¹ compared to 57 ± 10% and 65 ± 7% respectively.

CONCLUSION:

This in-vitro research suggests that vinegar promotes further discharge of venom from already discharged nematocysts. This raises concern that vinegar has the potential to do harm when used as first aid in C. fleckeri envenomation

Source:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=An+in-vitro+examination+of+the+effect+of+vinegar+on+discharged+nematocysts+of+Chironex+fleckeri

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When searching it seems like most named experts advise vinegar for box jellyfish, even the well-known good results of vinegar cannot be scientific explained, but some make reservations after this in-vitro study, published in March 2014.

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Medically Reviewed by a Doctor on 6/5/2014

Medical Author: Barbara J. Drobina, DO

Medical Editor: Melissa Conrad Stöppler, MD, Chief Medical Editor

(Sic)

Jellyfish Stings Treatment

If you are stung by a box jellyfish, seek medical help immediately. While you are waiting for medical help, flood the area with vinegar until medical help is available and keep as still as possible. If you are not close to medical care, soak the area and tentacles for 10 minutes or more, before attempting to remove them. If the sting is on the arms or legs, you can place a pressure dressing (like an ACE wrap used for a sprained ankle) around the sting. Be careful that you do not stop blood flow - the fingers and toes should always stay pink. This will help to slow down the spread of the toxin.

For other jellyfish stings, soak or rinse the area in vinegar…

Source:

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/jellyfish_stings/page4_em.htm

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Should you use vinegar on all jellyfish stings?

Dr. Lisa-Ann Gershwin, the Director of the Australian Marine Stinger Advisory Service was interviewed by Stuart Gary.

(Sic)

Vinegar and tropical stingers

Scientists still don't know why vinegar works for tropical stingers, says Gershwin

"We don't know exactly what's going on chemically, so as to why it works, it's a mystery."

"It's a fluke that we even found out, but it does work and it works better than anything else ever tested."

According to Gershwin vinegar somehow blocks the nematocysts or stinging cells ability to fire, "it happens instantaneously as soon as the vinegar is applied".

"It can't do anything about those that have already fired, but it stops any more from shooting off. In a typical sting you get maybe 10 per cent of nematocysts firing. But on a typical tentacle there will be many thousands that haven't fired off yet."

Rubbing the stingers or pouring fresh water on them, however, should be avoided, as this will cause the nematocysts to fire and make the sting much worse, says Gershwin.

"The last thing you want to do is increase your toxic load if you've already been stung."

Editor's note: since this article was published in 2011, research published in 2014 questions the use of vinegar on box jellyfish stings. The research, published in the journal Diving and Hyperbaric Medicine, suggests vinegar promotes further discharge of venom from already discharged nematocysts.

Source:

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/12/13/3389985.htm

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How To Treat a Jellyfish Sting

By Rod Brouhard, EMT – P

First Aid Expert

Updated June 17, 2014.

Written or reviewed by a board-certified physician.

(Sic)

…If the species is known to be box jellyfish (Chironex fleckeri) or Irukandji (Carukia barnesi), get emergency medical help immediately. For box jellyfish stings, rinsing with vinegar may help (see tips).

Rinse the tentacles off. Rinse away the tentacles using hot water if possible (see step 5 for how hot). If heated water isn't available, use salt water rather than fresh. Fresh water may worsen the stinging pain…

[Tips]

3.

Plain white distilled vinegar (acetic acid) like you would find in your kitchen has long been the standard first aid treatment for jellyfish stings. Its use has become controversial in the last few years and several studies leave us questioning whether vinegar really works. Vinegar is still recommended for use on box jellyfish stings, so if it's available, I'd give it a try.

Quote from source:

http://firstaid.about.com/od/bitesstings/ht/06_jellyfish.htm

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From Australian Marine Medic (no date) that was fully quoted in Post #8:

...

2. If others are available, immediately send them for ambulance / medical help (emphasise the sting is from a Box jellyfish as the Ambulance may have antivenom available).

3. Check the victims Airway, breathing and circulation (ABC). Treat with mouth-to-mouth resuscitation (EAR), or heart massage (CPR), if necessary.

4. If others are available, or if resuscitation is not needed, pour vinegar over the stung area for a minimum of 30 seconds to inactivate remaining stinging cells on any adherent tentacles left on the skin.

...

Source:

http://www.marine-medic.com.au/pages/firstaid/first_aid_treatment_of_jellyfish_stings.asp