Can They Fire this Teacher?

[Scott]

I know a middle aged man, maybe in his early 40's, who is mixed farang-Thai. He has both passports but was hired as a foreign teacher about 6 or 7 years ago by a private school. The school isn't far from where I work, and I have done some help for the school so I know the teacher well and know the admin of the school and how they work.

A few days ago, the teacher was told he would be fired at the end of October (will be paid through October). They presented a letter which was not very specific, except to say that he had received a warning previously for various infractions of school rules including being late, talking on the mobile phone during school hours, etc..

The school said the students didn't like him and that he sometimes yelled at them.

I've known the teacher for a long time and although he's probably not the best teacher, he is far from being incompetent or the worse. He has a master's degree in education.

I know he is contemplating taking legal action against the school for breaking the contract (which should finish at the end of the academic year). Does he have any recourse?

[mrtoad]

If he has been employed for 6 or 7 years, then they are going to have to pay him a suitable severence, it would certainly be more than one month salary.

[Scott]

The school is a private schools and the private schools are exempt from paying severance.

[aidenai]

For terminating an employment contract, both parties have to follow conditions as stated in the employment contract.

On another note, it's illegal for holders of a double nationality i.e. Thai and another, to use a nationality other than Thai whilst being in Thailand. You might want to ask expert 'Arkady' for a confirmation.

Edited September 13, 2014 by aidenai

[Scott]

The person has not used the 2nd passport for any purpose. He is a Thai citizen. He was hired as a native speaker based on the foreign passport and education.

He resides full-time and permanently in Thailand at this time but has always kept the citizenship of the 2nd country as well.

[lostinisaan]

They presented a letter which was not very specific, except to say that he had received a warning previously for various infractions of school rules including being late, talking on the mobile phone during school hours, etc..

The school said the students didn't like him and that he sometimes yelled at them.

"Various infractions, including being late" doesn't really specify a lot, and I doubt that talking on his phone during school hours was one of the reasons.

If the students don't like him, here you go. It's also pretty much common if students at a government high school dislike their foreign teacher, he/ she'll be replaced, as they have to "evaluate" him, or her.

To answer your question., Yes, they can fire him. And even if he'd find ways to stay, it wouldn't be fun for him to work there.

It seems that they've made their decision.

There'll always be reasons to get him fired. I'd look for another job and don't look back.

Edited September 13, 2014 by lostinisaan

[Scott]

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor. I don't know that he would wish to continue to work at the school.

The assertion that the students don't like him is false. The students were ask "What don't you like about Teacher X". The point is rather clear that the Headmistress and the Assistant do not like the teacher.

I think the teacher is contemplating 'wrongful termination'. When he asked if the school was following proper procedures in the termination, the reply was "We don't care about the Ministry of Labor".

The person asked me for advice and I am not sure. I have terminated people, but I've always made sure there was cause and that it could be verified.

[lostinisaan]

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor. I don't know that he would wish to continue to work at the school.

The assertion that the students don't like him is false. The students were ask "What don't you like about Teacher X". The point is rather clear that the Headmistress and the Assistant do not like the teacher.

I think the teacher is contemplating 'wrongful termination'. When he asked if the school was following proper procedures in the termination, the reply was "We don't care about the Ministry of Labor".

The person asked me for advice and I am not sure. I have terminated people, but I've always made sure there was cause and that it could be verified.

If I were him, I'd seek advice of the Ministry of labor. Please see attached files and tell him to go for it. The fact that he's Thai might be in his favor, as well.

He might even get a free lawyer and I doubt that the school is really looking for problems.

Best of luck for your friend.

Bangkokbase_Newsletter_May_13.doc

Thailands Labor and Employment Law- Balancing the Demands of a N.doc

[TerryLH]

"On another note, it's illegal for holders of a double nationality i.e. Thai and another, to use a nationality other than Thai whilst being in Thailand."

Can you provide a link to back up this claim? I suspect you can't, but am open to learning otherwise.

[aidenai]

Can you provide a link to back up this claim? I suspect you can't, but am open to learning otherwise.

Belittling assumption?

[Nemesis7]

Private School, Private rules. Private way of dealing. Period

[mrtoad]

So schools dont have to conform under Thai employment law?

[zeichen]

Most likely the contract has a clause that allows the school to dismiss the teacher with a months notice. If it is pursued legally, I am certain that the school will fake letters and have some magic list of infractions. I know a few teachers that were good at their job but weren't the best employee and they cost too much so the school trumped up a bunch of infractions and had some Thai teachers sign them. His only question to them was, If this list had been piling up for years, why was it only now that he got a warning.

Fine details in contracts often set us up later for hassles. You would think that with a contract it would protect employees more but frankly we are still the same as at will employees and they don't really need a cause. They will just make something up that a lawyer tells them if it goes legal.

Best advice is to brush off the shame, put resume out and learn the lessons that you can.

[connda]

I'd ask him if he has a copy of his contract and review it with him. The private school I worked for stated in the contract that either the school or myself could terminate the contract with 30 days written notice. My contract never stated anything about there having to be 'cause' by either party. The incentive for employees to finish a full year contract was a pretty decent bonus on completion.

If his contract is confusing, I'd definitely suggestion running it by an attorney.

However, I agree with one of the other posters. If you and you're school management aren't seeing eye to eye, it's a good time to look for another job. There's no reason to stay with an employer that makes your life difficult for you. Especially when there are unresolvable problems with management that are out of your control.

Edited September 13, 2014 by connda

[culicine]

The school is a private schools and the private schools are exempt from paying severance.

Not necessarily. Only hen the contract expires, could he be 'let go'. I know of one teacher (also part Thai/Malay), who was fired mid contract. H was awarded severance (a private school). If the school does not follow the correct procedure - warning notices, etc, then the school could be liable to pay severance. If the school were clever enough, they should wait until the end of the contract. That's my take on it, but every situation is different, and the labour court could take a different view.

[culicine]

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor. I don't know that he would wish to continue to work at the school.

The assertion that the students don't like him is false. The students were ask "What don't you like about Teacher X". The point is rather clear that the Headmistress and the Assistant do not like the teacher.

I think the teacher is contemplating 'wrongful termination'. When he asked if the school was following proper procedures in the termination, the reply was "We don't care about the Ministry of Labor".

The person asked me for advice and I am not sure. I have terminated people, but I've always made sure there was cause and that it could be verified.

I still think grounds for termination need to be quite ongoing/severe. A teacher can be immediately dismissed (no notice) but ground must be serious. This school might start to care when they realise they have not been giving written warnings to the teacher in question. The labour court is generally in favour of employees, but private schools seem to be swimming in murky waters regarding these regulations. If teachers are not covered, why would we even car about giving notice when we leave? And there is no social security for us too. The Thai teachers get a provident fund, but as we are paid 'so much' we get nothing.

[rijb]

I think they already did. What does that mean - he was hired as a foreign teacher? Does he have a work permit?

Edited September 13, 2014 by rijb

[Sampradaya]

A contract in Thailand means nothing. He has the right to fight them but wont get far. Walk out, pull the door closed and forget about them. Start fresh somewhere where people will show appreciation. They will be the losers. Typical TL!!

[bigguy]

Why are you asking such a question on here? Just need something to do? Tell your friend call an attorney, again, TV Members are now versed in all of the Thai Labor Laws. He's Thai, a quick call, or even ask the TV attorney sponsor on here, not a bunch of wannabee know it all's.

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor. I don't know that he would wish to continue to work at the school.

The assertion that the students don't like him is false. The students were ask "What don't you like about Teacher X". The point is rather clear that the Headmistress and the Assistant do not like the teacher.

I think the teacher is contemplating 'wrongful termination'. When he asked if the school was following proper procedures in the termination, the reply was "We don't care about the Ministry of Labor".

The person asked me for advice and I am not sure. I have terminated people, but I've always made sure there was cause and that it could be verified.

[GAZZPA]

Private School, Private rules. Private way of dealing. Period

Does that mean that all private companies are exempt from employment law? As far as I am aware all employers are obligated to comply to the labour laws.

I could be wrong but I don't think so.

[lostinisaan]

Why are you asking such a question on here? Just need something to do? Tell your friend call an attorney, again, TV Members are now versed in all of the Thai Labor Laws. He's Thai, a quick call, or even ask the TV attorney sponsor on here, not a bunch of wannabee know it all's.

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor. I don't know that he would wish to continue to work at the school.

The assertion that the students don't like him is false. The students were ask "What don't you like about Teacher X". The point is rather clear that the Headmistress and the Assistant do not like the teacher.

I think the teacher is contemplating 'wrongful termination'. When he asked if the school was following proper procedures in the termination, the reply was "We don't care about the Ministry of Labor".

The person asked me for advice and I am not sure. I have terminated people, but I've always made sure there was cause and that it could be verified.

Why do you think is it called teaching forum? Isn't such a forum exactly the right place to see what other peoples' input/ experience is?

Looking at your username, you could be the wanna be bigguy, but I could be wrong..........

[Scott]

Bigguy I have plenty to do. There are members of this forum with a great deal of knowledge and experience.

The teacher was hired under a foreign contract as a native English speaker because of their education and passport from a foreign country. He is a Thai citizen, so there is no Work Permit needed. There is also no Thai contract, only the foreign contract. The point is that this person isn't going away and doesn't have to get a visa. A lot of schools count on the fact that when they unfairly dismiss someone, that person will have to find another job or possibly leave the country. This guy is here to stay.

I know that it is quite easy to get rid of a teacher, but usually there needs to be a reason and the reasons need to be somewhat verifiable. The administration has not verified anything. It's not hard to set a teacher up, but they really didn't even bother to go through the motions.

I will advise him to see the labor department, but I am wondering what experiences others have had with situations like this.

[Scott]

Private School, Private rules. Private way of dealing. Period

Does that mean that all private companies are exempt from employment law? As far as I am aware all employers are obligated to comply to the labour laws.

I could be wrong but I don't think so.

There is a special act for private schools only (not private companies in general). It means they are exempt from some Thai labor laws. Unless they are specifically exempt, they, like all companies whether private or public, must comply with Thai labor law.

I am wondering if this guy could go for unfair termination and get paid for the remainder of the contract.

As some have stated, it would be a rather futile effort to actually try to stay at the school. I don't think it would take them long to come up with the ammunition they need to get rid of a person.

[steven100]

This is Thailand ... of coarse they can fire him. They can and will find an excuse to do it and he won't have recourse as they will have checked that avenue out already.

I'd just accept it and look for something else.

Why create waves when you won't win ..

[meand]

I'm telling you, forget private or public school. Just forget it! They don't matter either way.

It all depends on the documentation. If they warned him, and have written proof he was given a written warning, he probably won't get anything.

The whole private public thing is such a cluster--- here. So much misinformation. The misunderstood exemptions for private schools only apply if they follow the written warning guidelines.

[meand]

Private School, Private rules. Private way of dealing. Period

Does that mean that all private companies are exempt from employment law? As far as I am aware all employers are obligated to comply to the labour laws.

I could be wrong but I don't think so.

You are right. Of course you are right. This is why, if you notice, the private schools will operate very carefully. They don't just haul off and can people. Don't you think we'd hear about 3 stories a week if they had total impunity. This is so misunderstood, one of the most misunderstood things in thailand easily.

[zeichen]

AndyPat if you are not a teacher, then why on earth would you waste your time in the teacher's forum?

Seems that not even mods can post something without getting nonsense thrown at them. TV needs a total overhaul if this is what happens when someone posts an honest question to help someone else.

[Phatcharanan]

The fact that the school have stated he will not be employed at the end of October suggests to me that they are giving a (probably correct) notice period.

The teacher in question really needs to look at his contract of employment for terms and conditions.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Phatcharanan

[petercool]

Two flame posts removed

[KhnomKhnom]

This person is thinking of pursuing the situation with the Ministry of Labor. I don't know that he would wish to continue to work at the school.

The assertion that the students don't like him is false. The students were ask "What don't you like about Teacher X". The point is rather clear that the Headmistress and the Assistant do not like the teacher.

I think the teacher is contemplating 'wrongful termination'. When he asked if the school was following proper procedures in the termination, the reply was "We don't care about the Ministry of Labor".

The person asked me for advice and I am not sure. I have terminated people, but I've always made sure there was cause and that it could be verified.

The teacher has already lost his case. He may be able to win the completion of his contract, but that may be to the end of Oct. Otherwise, non renewal of contract is the discretion of the school. It matters not if the situation is fair, teacher evaluation is so flexible as to fit the school's needs.

This man should take a walk and forget it.