ATM Withdrawal is cheaper than Wire transfer?!

[Alexander Joo]

I wired myself money from President's Choice bank in Canada to Bangkok Bank (I opened the account solely for this reason). I thought it would definitely be cheaper than pulling from ATMs, but it looks like it isn't -- or the difference is negligible (3.94% v 3.33%). I'm not very sophisticated with FX and whatnot, but the details are as follows. Are these calculations correct? Should I just withdraw direct from ATMs? And if so, what the hell's the point of having my Bangkok Bank account?!

(All $ in CAD)

WIRE TRANSFER

Transfer: $4000 CAD

Actual amount into account: $3872.25

Losses:

FX: -$127.75

Transfer Fee: -$30

Total lost: -$157.75 (3.94%)

ATM WITHDRAWAL

Withdraw: 20,000THB

ATM Fee: 180THB

Net: $708.10

Total (without fee): $701.78

Losses:

Local ATM Charge (180THB): -$6.32
Foreign ATM Charge (My bank): -$3

FX (XE rate $687.488): -$14.29

Total lost: $23.61 (3.33%)

[Rooo]

Moved to banking.

[krisb]

Best way I know of is use a debit card issued by Visa or Mastercard from your Canadian bank, then when you use a Thai ATM, find one that has a 'credit' button when selecting which account.

This way you won't get charged any overseas transaction fees, only the 180 baht or whatever it is, plus the exchange rate which are usually not too bad.

You should have been able to see how much your transfer fee was going to be before you wired to your Thai bank. It's never very cheap as you know.

[JDGRUEN]

I suggest investigating transfer of money from your Canadian Bank to the Bangkok Bank in New York (assuming you have a dual account there). It may be possible (and I use the word 'may') to transfer using the ACH system -- Automated Clearing House... American banks of course do this from bank to bank... this is a low fee to no fee funds transfer method...

Bangkok Bank New York is a corresponding bank in the ACH system... And since Canada and the U.S. have close working relationships on many matters I would not be surprised if the ACH system reaches into Canada.

I just looked it up via Google and from what I just read it seems quite possible. An ACH transfer is not a Wire transfer... Between Canada and the U.S. it is called an International ACH..

I suggest work with your back to see if this is possible and of course compare all fees involved and see if it is feasible / usable.

[sfokevin]

Also do some research with your Canadian bank to determine who did the conversion... Your bank or BKK Bank?... Here in the US you can choose where the conversion takes place... Usually if the US bank does the conversion they give a bad rate...

You might also look into a Canadian back that refunds ATM fees to further reduce the ATM method...

Edited September 15, 2014 by sfokevin

[mesquite]

My debit card from State Farm bank in the US is always cheaper than wire xfer.

[kkerry]

I've found if I let my home bank convert and transfer Thai baht to my Thai account, then it's a lower rate than having my bank in Thailand convert my overseas currency to Thai baht. So long as it's more than a thousand dollars, bank transfers converted at the Thai end work out cheaper for me than withdrawing from ATMs when all charges are taken in to account.

[Alexander Joo]

I guess what I want to know is, is (average) 3.5% a pretty good rate as anyone will get? I don't mind losing this every transaction if it's around the norm. Cost of doing business, I suppose.

Is anyone transferring and then withdrawing at a much better rate than this?

As of now, I'll withdraw from ATM directly from my Canadian bank at 3.9% than go through the hassle of calling to wire transfer and then waiting a week to get 3.4%.

[Shurup]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/719596-bringing-over-20000-usd-in-cash-anyone-tried-whats-the-procedures/

FYI, I have an unlimited banking account with RBC and all the foreign transaction fees (as well as any other fees like withdrawal at ATMs other than RBC) are waived.

[Shurup]

Also FYI, the BKK Bank's limit is 25K Baht, same ATM fee (unless it changed recently). Better deal than other Thai Banks IMHO.

[BudRight]

You could wire me some money. My buffalo is sick.

[sfokevin]

You could wire me some money. My buffalo is sick.

Word on the soi is your buffalo died long time...

Edited September 15, 2014 by sfokevin

[sfokevin]

Curious can you tell us how you calculated your FX loss? And the day your money appeared in your BKK Bank account?...

How does your calculated rate compare to the rate quoted on the BKK Bank website that day?

http://www.bangkokbank.com/bangkokbank/webservices/rates/pages/fx_rates.aspx

If your rate is significantly different I would ask your home bank if they did the conversion?... If so ask your home bank if you can transfer Canadian dollars to BKK Bank?

[topt]

Curious can you tell us how you calculated your FX loss? And the day your money appeared in your BKK Bank account?...

How does your calculated rate compare to the rate quoted on the BKK Bank website that day?

http://www.bangkokbank.com/bangkokbank/webservices/rates/pages/fx_rates.aspx

If your rate is significantly different I would ask your home bank if they did the conversion?... If so ask your home bank if you can transfer Canadian dollars to BKK Bank?

Agreed - BKK banks normally charge 200-500 baht maximum for receiving foreign currency and changing it into baht in my experience. That plus your banks sending charge should be the only obvious fees and then it is at what rate you get from the Thai bank. It looks like you have allowed your bank to send in baht which is why there is the "FX loss". With fixed charges the more you send the less the % age cost of sending and your % age cost rate should fall significantly.

There have been lots of threads on this subject before so can I suggest OP does a search as most scenarios have been covered in depth by others recently

[Pib]

In your calculations you need to be using the exchange rate provided by the bank which accomplished the conversion from CAD to THB. Don't use any FX rate like XE.com as that is not the rate you get at banks. Hopefully you sent the funds in CAD for the Thai bank to convert versus letting your Canadian bank do the conversion...Thai banks use their TT Buying Rate which is about the best the common man can get...definitely better than the rate provided by foreign banks. On the Thai bank end there will be a 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) funds receipt fee. Any other fees are all upstream such as from your Sending Bank or any middle man correspondent bank it may have to use to accomplish the international transfer.

For the debit/credit card exchange rate use the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate as shown at their exchange rate webpages and then subtract any foreign transaction fee(s) your card-issuing bank may apply...and of course subtract the Thai bank/AEON ATM fee of Bt150-180 if your card-issuing bank does not reimburse this fee. If you have a no foreign transaction fee debit card that also reimburses ATM fees (I have two such U.S. debit cards), there are absolutely no fees in getting your money and Visa/Mastercard exchange is plus or minus a few stang the TT Buying Rate. I haven't done a wire transfer in years...get all my Thailand living money out of the ATM using my no foreign transaction fee debit cards that reimburse...fee-free and at a exchange rate that basically equals the TT Buying Rate...plus I get the money immediately in hand versus waiting on a wire transfer to show up.

[elgordo38]

You can use international Forex. You give them a blank check on your Canadian bank plus fill out an application form. When you feel the rate is good you call them and give them the amount of the transfer and they will quote you a rate. My last transfer worked out to about about 2% or slightly less. The BBK bank charge was around 500 bahts to put money in my account so they could lend it out and double dip. The money arrived in my account in about 2 or 3 days.

[noendtoit]

Also do some research with your Canadian bank to determine who did the conversion... Your bank or BKK Bank?... Here in the US you can choose where the conversion takes place... Usually if the US bank does the conversion they give a bad rate...

You might also look into a Canadian back that refunds ATM fees to further reduce the ATM method...

Schwab, for example. Schwab is American but has branches in Canada

[noendtoit]

I guess what I want to know is, is (average) 3.5% a pretty good rate as anyone will get? I don't mind losing this every transaction if it's around the norm. Cost of doing business, I suppose.

Is anyone transferring and then withdrawing at a much better rate than this?

As of now, I'll withdraw from ATM directly from my Canadian bank at 3.9% than go through the hassle of calling to wire transfer and then waiting a week to get 3.4%.

I do not pay anything. My transfers are free. I use Schwab. If I use an ATM, the fees are refunded by Schwab. The exchange rate is the Visa international rate -- the best you can get. If I want to withdraw more than the 25,000 baht Thai ATM daily limit, I walk into my bank and do an over-the-counter Visa debit cash advance transaction. There are no fees for this.

I pay nothing. Many TV members would rather pay fees for the ease of it, but I do not pay bank fees. Period.

[Alexander Joo]

You can use international Forex. You give them a blank check on your Canadian bank plus fill out an application form. When you feel the rate is good you call them and give them the amount of the transfer and they will quote you a rate. My last transfer worked out to about about 2% or slightly less. The BBK bank charge was around 500 bahts to put money in my account so they could lend it out and double dip. The money arrived in my account in about 2 or 3 days.

Thanks for this info, it sounds perfect as I want to dabble in forex (which also means, "I want to lose a shitload in forex.") Which website/service do you use?

[Alexander Joo]

Best way I know of is use a debit card issued by Visa or Mastercard from your Canadian bank, then when you use a Thai ATM, find one that has a 'credit' button when selecting which account.

This way you won't get charged any overseas transaction fees, only the 180 baht or whatever it is, plus the exchange rate which are usually not too bad.

You should have been able to see how much your transfer fee was going to be before you wired to your Thai bank. It's never very cheap as you know.

Thanks for this info. Will using the Visa be a "cash advance" though, which incurs interest right away? It's confusing because although it's a "debit" card, you're pushing the "credit" button.

[rhodie]

The best rate is to bring cash, change to Baht at a money changer that has good rates like Super Rich and deposit into your account.

No bank fees and better than the bank TT rate.

[mesquite]

I guess what I want to know is, is (average) 3.5% a pretty good rate as anyone will get? I don't mind losing this every transaction if it's around the norm. Cost of doing business, I suppose.

Is anyone transferring and then withdrawing at a much better rate than this?

As of now, I'll withdraw from ATM directly from my Canadian bank at 3.9% than go through the hassle of calling to wire transfer and then waiting a week to get 3.4%.

I do not pay anything. My transfers are free. I use Schwab. If I use an ATM, the fees are refunded by Schwab. The exchange rate is the Visa international rate -- the best you can get. If I want to withdraw more than the 25,000 baht Thai ATM daily limit, I walk into my bank and do an over-the-counter Visa debit cash advance transaction. There are no fees for this.

I pay nothing. Many TV members would rather pay fees for the ease of it, but I do not pay bank fees. Period.

Ditto for my State Farm bank card.

[krisb]

Best way I know of is use a debit card issued by Visa or Mastercard from your Canadian bank, then when you use a Thai ATM, find one that has a 'credit' button when selecting which account.

This way you won't get charged any overseas transaction fees, only the 180 baht or whatever it is, plus the exchange rate which are usually not too bad.

You should have been able to see how much your transfer fee was going to be before you wired to your Thai bank. It's never very cheap as you know.

Thanks for this info. Will using the Visa be a "cash advance" though, which incurs interest right away? It's confusing because although it's a "debit" card, you're pushing the "credit" button.

No interest at all on debit cards even pressing credit. Our bank in Aus says we should be pressing credit then no account fees. They aren't a credit card at all, it's a debit card only, totally seperate from each other. Its linked with your savings account only.

Worth getting one mate.

[Pib]

Selecting Credit versus Savings or Current/Cheque on the ATM screen mainly just alters the network routing and provides additional security features for the purchase or withdrawal. With some bank debit cards if you press credit on the ATM the transaction will just abort...depends on which bank issued your card and how they have it interfaced with various networks around the world. This cut and paste from St George Bank in Australia gives a descent summary. But selecting Credit on the ATM when using your debit card (and if it works) will not cause a Cash Advance fee/interest charges which are typical for "credit cards"...the money still comes out of your bank account although it will probably take a little long due to the security/posting procedures.

[imjmn]

From my US bank the wire transfer fee is - if I transfer in Thai baht it is $30. My US bank makes the conversion before sending. If I transfer in US $ it is $45.

As such, if sent in US $ let the exchange be performed from the Thai bank converting $ to Baht is always a better rate from my experience.

The best choice is to have a $ account in Thailand and then transfer $ to $. Once here in Thailand, convert $ as you need to into Thai Baht through your Thai bank. Krung Sri has a good product. There are a number of Thai banks that have foreign currency accounts with various products. You will have to shop to see what meets your needs.

Using an ATM will cost you the local fee of 180 Baht+your banks fee for using it outside of their network+3% currency conversion fee taken by VISA/MasterCard. The currency conversion fee used to be 1% but changed earlier this year.

MJ

[Tomtomtom69]

I don't believe the transfer fee could have been that high for a wire transfer. I just made a transfer of only slightly less than what the OP made, just last week into my Bangkok Bank account. I lost A$20 in fees + 200 Baht (around $6.80) as the transfer fee is fixed at only $20 whether one sends only the minimum of $100 or the maximum of $50000.

Had I withdrawn all that money at an ATM, the fees would have been outrageous: I would have had to make 4 ATM withdrawals, which would have meant the following fees: 4*$5 = $20 foreign ATM withdrawal fees charged by my bank, 4 * 180 Baht = 720 Baht (about A$25) fee charged by the Thai bank plus 3% of the amount withdrawn. As you can see, this would have meant a much higher amount of fees and charges compared to doing a wire transfer. No way that over $100 would have been deducted as in the OPs case - even Bangkok Bank is very transparent about what it takes for incoming transfers, which is 200 Baht minimum, 500 Baht maximum (the latter is only applied for very large transfers as it's 0.25% of the amount transferred).

Bringing cash over and exchanging at Super Rich or Siam Exchange near MBK is a good idea IF you are travelling from abroad and have the money on you. But if you're already in Thailand, wire transfer is the way to go.

[Tomtomtom69]

Also, the example the OP made is a poor one. 20000 Baht withdrawn from an ATM is nowhere near 4000 CAD. In order to compare accurately, an ATM withdrawal (more likely multiple withdrawals) of the equivalent of 4000 CAD would need to be made and I can assure you that the fees will be just as high as the example I have made in my previous post. The only time when an ATM withdrawal is preferable to making a wire transfer is for small amounts. Generally speaking, if the transfer amount is less than the equivalent of around 20000 Baht (you'll have to determine this depending on your bank charges), then withdrawing from an ATM makes more sense. For amounts greater than 20000, or in particular 25000 (the max. amount that can be withdrawn from a Thai ATM), withdrawing makes less sense because for that you'd need to make 2 withdrawals and pay 2 separate sets of fees, which make the withdrawal fees much higher than the wire transfer fees.

[ToddinChonburi]

I use UsBank, when atm for 20,000 baht is atm fee of 180 baht , foreign atm fee waived but get hit with international transaction fee must be the 3% everyone is talking about.

I brought over a chashiers check for $ 20,000 US and deposited it at Bangkok bank. Took about 3 weeks to clear. You can live all year long or longer on just that.

[sfokevin]

So Alexander did you determine who did the conversion?... Your Canadian bank or BKK Bank?...

[Obb]

1) OP also reports CAD amount in Thailand. That calculation is quite involved as it is recursive - presupposing the exchange rate that is itself at the crux of the matter.

2) Many sending banks will do whatever they can to make the currency exchange at their end - i.e. before it is sent. As others here have pointed out, OP must determine who did the exchange.

3) Many wire transfers involve an intermediary "correspondent bank", which add their own fees and forex rate. OP must find out whether a correspondent bank was involved - and whether that could have been avoided. (FWIW, having looked into it a bit, the whole "correspondent bank" thing appears to be somewhat of an international banking boondoggle. Most major banks dealing in major currencies are certainly able to deal directly. Adding insult to injury, the sending bank will state "fees may be associated with the use of intermediary banks ..." or some such nonsense. As if they just send the money out into space, not knowing which bank(s) will handle it.)

Kudos to OP and those here who actually care enough to do the work.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Obb