Loved and hated, former PM Thaksin is erased from textbook

[tbthailand]

I am well aware of his criminal history and i surely dont approve of it (nor of him or many of his ill conceived policies). But unlike other people that does not automatically make me a supporter of a military coup and one person taking absolute power.

Maybe you can google a bit how other countries did in the past when a person took absolute power. There are examples enough and it almost always ends in the same way. Days and days reading pleasure for you.

......................."when a person took absolute power"..............................

The only person who took absolute power in Thailand in recent memory was none other than Thaksin Shinawatra. In fact it was so absolute he still wielded power while on the run evading the criminal charged he faces. Until the Military stepped in and put a stop to the rot.

Thailand has seen vast improvements since the Military took control and the killing of innocent anti-government protesters has stopped.

I am not the slightest bit interested in what happened in other countries, that does not apply to Thailand. Anyone who cannot or will not see that is a fool.

You say you are well aware of "his" criminal history yet you still support him and condemn the far better alternative. That says a lot about you.

'I am not the slightest bit interested in what happened in other countries, that does not apply to Thailand. Anyone who cannot or will not see that is a fool.'

yes, coups in Thailand are different from coups in other countries

yes, dictatorships in Thailand are different from dictatorships in other countries.

yes, anyone who cannot see that is a fool.

This is the good coup. This is the good dictator.

[tbthailand]

That's easy. You need look no firther than the coup makers in 2006 right here in Thailand. It ended pretty well. Elections were called etc. etc.

It wasn't until the meglomaniac in Dubai hired a bunch of paid thugs to hold Bangkok hostage for two months, and subsequently burn and loot a good portion of it because he didn't like the fact that his party wasn't running thing, so he couldn't pull the strings.

Ohh and edit to add, both times that a coup occured in 2006 and 2014, there was no legally elected government in power. People seems to skip over that small detail.

The coup of 2006 worked so well that they decided to do another within a decade...

And luckily the city was only held hostage for 2 months, and not much longer as this year happened.

Maybe people skip over the small detail that there was no elected government in power because it is just that; a small detail based on a formality. It must be pretty clear for most what the outcome of an election must have been giving the efforts one party made to block elections.

Well Mr T. and company came back with the same vote buying policies etc. Not to mention the rice scam which almost sent the country in to bankruptcy. In case you have noticed, there's a difference bewteen peaceful protests, and setting up an armed encampment in the middle of Bangkok. I noticed that no one rioted or set any fires when these last protests came to an end, unlike in 2010.

While this coup may not fit the western style of "Democracy" it has brought stability to the country both times. In 2006 and this year. Western style democracy is not a "one size fits all" solution for every country.

Besides noticing that last protests ended peacefully and previous ones not, did you also analyze why that could be?

Last protests were ment to get the army to take control. So they reached their goal when the protests ended. Besides that it also helped a lot that they were not fired upon by the military with 90+ people killed right before the big fires started.

yes, how could that have been?

“Before martial law was declared, Gen Prayuth told me ‘Khun Suthep and your masses of PDRC supporters are too exhausted. It’s now the duty of the army to take over the task’, Mr Suthep said.”

and this additional point from Suthep might be relevant to erasing the PM from text books...

He had consulted Gen Prayuth since the 2010 political unrest on how to root out the so-called Thaksin regime

[rubl]

yes, how could that have been?

“Before martial law was declared, Gen Prayuth told me ‘Khun Suthep and your masses of PDRC supporters are too exhausted. It’s now the duty of the army to take over the task’, Mr Suthep said.”

and this additional point from Suthep might be relevant to erasing the PM from text books...

He had consulted Gen Prayuth since the 2010 political unrest on how to root out the so-called Thaksin regime

It would believe someone who is normally condemned as unbelievable can still be believed at times. That is, when it's convenient to do so.

[rubl]

You can do better than this rubl.

Regarding the election, I think a lot of people would have preferred one last July, perhaps supported by a clear statement from the military that it wanted a fair, nonviolent election and would take steps to ensure that happened.

...

It would seem also a lot of people didn't want elections in July. Maybe a lot of people didn't want elections in February either and certainly not while a part of the country was put under an emergency degree. Even the Surayut government lifted Martial Law in the provinces it was still in force in, 60 days before the general elections.

Edited September 20, 2014 by rubl

[mikemac]

No matter how much you deny it this family has support of the people, he was elected fair and square, so was his sister, both were ousted by an undemocratic military coup.

"No matter how much you deny it this family (Shinawatra) has support of the people. True but what % ?

No matter how much you deny it, P.M. Prayuth has support of the people. True but what % ?

I would not hold my breath waiting for an answer ratty, that throw away line was straight off the top of his head, and I doubt he has any more.

[heybruce]

You can do better than this rubl.

Regarding the election, I think a lot of people would have preferred one last July, perhaps supported by a clear statement from the military that it wanted a fair, nonviolent election and would take steps to ensure that happened.

...

It would seem also a lot of people didn't want elections in July. Maybe a lot of people didn't want elections in February either and certainly not while a part of the country was put under an emergency degree. Even the Surayut government lifted Martial Law in the provinces it was still in force in, 60 days before the general elections.

Once again you are editing my posts. You also removed your post that I was replying to. I wonder why.

Here's what you posted:

"Can you wait till later next year, or shall we ask PM Prayuth to organisa an election just to satisfy your curiosity?

Any way the topic is taking out a few references to Thaksin by the MoE. Somehow with all the ;interesting posts' here, it seems almost forgotten which references those were, or actually somehow it seems we don't even know which references those were. Actually Thomas Fuller doesn't really give exanmples, he just seems to be very pro-Thaksin to the point of 'forgetting' a few aspects which would just distract from a 'shining hero'. IMHO, of course, and all that.

May I suggest you read the NYT article of the OP? Hardly real objective, must be that 'fighting for democracy' aspect which allows one to drop objectivity."

And here's the part of my reply you edited out:

The topic is not about taking out a few references to Thaksin, it is about taking out all references in the history book the junta ordered Thailand's schools to use:

"...high school students will not find the name Thaksin Shinawatra in the history textbooks that the country’s military junta recently ordered schools to use.

Mr. Thaksin’s name was scrubbed from the book by the Ministry of Education, said the textbook’s author, Thanom Anarmwat.

“The officials at the ministry just deleted it, cut it,” he said."

It would be difficult for Thomas Fuller to give an example of something that is not there, but he did write:

"Before the coup, schools were allowed to choose from a variety of history textbooks.

The one that is now the standard had been commissioned by the previous military junta, which seized power from Mr. Thaksin in 2006. The previous edition mentioned Mr. Thaksin at least seven times.

The new text covers the political history of Thailand’s past two decades in five pages, citing the names of many previous prime ministers and other protagonists, including Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the general who overthrew Mr. Thaksin in 2006."

BTW, I read the entire article, and used a quote from the end of the article, post #11 on the first page of this topic.

It appears you didn't read the article, but accused others of not reading the article. Or are you trying to obscure the fact that the junta seems to be editing history books to suit its needs?

Edited September 20, 2014 by heybruce

[mikemac]

You can do better than this rubl.

Regarding the election, I think a lot of people would have preferred one last July, perhaps supported by a clear statement from the military that it wanted a fair, nonviolent election and would take steps to ensure that happened.

...

It would seem also a lot of people didn't want elections in July. Maybe a lot of people didn't want elections in February either and certainly not while a part of the country was put under an emergency degree. Even the Surayut government lifted Martial Law in the provinces it was still in force in, 60 days before the general elections.

Once again you are editing my posts. You also removed your post that I was replying to. I wonder why.

Here's what you posted:

"Can you wait till later next year, or shall we ask PM Prayuth to organisa an election just to satisfy your curiosity?

Any way the topic is taking out a few references to Thaksin by the MoE. Somehow with all the ;interesting posts' here, it seems almost forgotten which references those were, or actually somehow it seems we don't even know which references those were. Actually Thomas Fuller doesn't really give exanmples, he just seems to be very pro-Thaksin to the point of 'forgetting' a few aspects which would just distract from a 'shining hero'. IMHO, of course, and all that.

May I suggest you read the NYT article of the OP? Hardly real objective, must be that 'fighting for democracy' aspect which allows one to drop objectivity."

And here's the part of my reply you edited out:

The topic is not about taking out a few references to Thaksin, it is about taking out all references in the history book the junta ordered Thailand's schools to use:

"...high school students will not find the name Thaksin Shinawatra in the history textbooks that the country’s military junta recently ordered schools to use.

Mr. Thaksin’s name was scrubbed from the book by the Ministry of Education, said the textbook’s author, Thanom Anarmwat.

“The officials at the ministry just deleted it, cut it,” he said."

It would be difficult for Thomas Fuller to give an example of something that is not there, but he did write:

"Before the coup, schools were allowed to choose from a variety of history textbooks.

The one that is now the standard had been commissioned by the previous military junta, which seized power from Mr. Thaksin in 2006. The previous edition mentioned Mr. Thaksin at least seven times.

The new text covers the political history of Thailand’s past two decades in five pages, citing the names of many previous prime ministers and other protagonists, including Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the general who overthrew Mr. Thaksin in 2006."

BTW, I read the entire article, and used a quote from the end of the article, post #11 on the first page of this topic.

It appears you didn't read the article, but accused others of not reading the article. Or are you trying to obscure the fact that the junta seems to be editing history books to suit its needs?

I am beginning to think that the resident troll has a split personality, and even "likes" his own posts !

[mikemac]

Seriously, if this is true, it is the worst thing I have heard about the Junta since it took over the running of the country.

If I had anything to do with the education system in Thailand I would have a text book created which chronicled the entire life and times of Thaksin Shinawatra, and I would force every student in Thailand to read it, study it, and test them on it to make sure they knew the truth about this hideous excuse for a human being.

The country would be better off if you cut out the bs and gave it to them (school students) straight.

I can imagine some Thai people looking at him as an embarrassment or a threat but he should not be hidden away and forgotten..

[rubl]

Once again you are editing my posts. You also removed your post that I was replying to. I wonder why.

...

Oh come on Brucy, even you should be able to see that I retained the first few lines of your post, unchanged as well, as that was the only part I was responding to.

That's allowed. Forum rule #2 has

"2. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned."

If you feel you've been slighted, feel free to PM a moderator for consultation

[rubl]

Seriously, if this is true, it is the worst thing I have heard about the Junta since it took over the running of the country.

If I had anything to do with the education system in Thailand I would have a text book created which chronicled the entire life and times of Thaksin Shinawatra, and I would force every student in Thailand to read it, study it, and test them on it to make sure they knew the truth about this hideous excuse for a human being.

The country would be better off if you cut out the bs and gave it to them (school students) straight.

I can imagine some Thai people looking at him as an embarrassment or a threat but he should not be hidden away and forgotten..

I'm not going to defend the removal of all references to Thaksin (at least seven of them, that is). I think is counterproductive.

On the other hand, I didn't hear much noise from posters when in January 2012 the new Minister of Education started his policy paper with a philosophy of what "Police Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Thaksin Shinawatra has said". That's the same chap who's also known as 'golf caddy', 'cloner of PMs' and 'our most favorite criminal fugitive'. Seems there's still a lot to do before we have an Education Policy and program which help Thai to move closer to the 21st Century. IMHO

[metisdead]

Once again you are editing my posts. You also removed your post that I was replying to. I wonder why.

...

Oh come on Brucy, even you should be able to see that I retained the first few lines of your post, unchanged as well, as that was the only part I was responding to.

That's allowed. Forum rule #2 has

"2. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned."

If you feel you've been slighted, feel free to PM a moderator for consultation

That is Forum Netiquette rule #2. The forum rule about altering quoted posts is this:

16) You will not make changes to quoted material from other members posts, except for purposes of shortening the quoted post. This cannot be done in such a manner that it alters the context of the original post.

Therefore, do exercise care when editing quoted posts.

[heybruce]

Once again you are editing my posts. You also removed your post that I was replying to. I wonder why.

...

Oh come on Brucy, even you should be able to see that I retained the first few lines of your post, unchanged as well, as that was the only part I was responding to.

That's allowed. Forum rule #2 has

"2. Please do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes or wording. Such posts will be deleted and the user warned."

If you feel you've been slighted, feel free to PM a moderator for consultation

You edited out the part of my post that applied to the OP about the editing of Thai history books. You also removed your blatantly erroneous description of the editing and your speculation that people were posting without reading the article in the OP. In your above reply you edited out my response that suggested that you had not read the article. In short, you edited out everything that was on topic and the bulk of my post.

Let's focus on something you wrote:

"Any way the topic is taking out a few references to Thaksin by the MoE."

That's clearly incorrect, the topic is about the complete removal of any mention of Thaksin in the history books that Thai students use. Specifically, from the article:

"Before the coup, schools were allowed to choose from a variety of history textbooks.

The one that is now the standard had been commissioned by the previous military junta, which seized power from Mr. Thaksin in 2006. The previous edition mentioned Mr. Thaksin at least seven times.

The new text covers the political history of Thailand’s past two decades in five pages, citing the names of many previous prime ministers and other protagonists, including Sonthi Boonyaratglin, the general who overthrew Mr. Thaksin in 2006.

Although it does not name Mr. Thaksin or his political party, it describes “a government” that used “many policies designed to gain popularity from people through huge budgets.”"

Did you not read the article, or were you deliberately misrepresenting it?

[tbthailand]

yes, how could that have been?

“Before martial law was declared, Gen Prayuth told me ‘Khun Suthep and your masses of PDRC supporters are too exhausted. It’s now the duty of the army to take over the task’, Mr Suthep said.”

and this additional point from Suthep might be relevant to erasing the PM from text books...

He had consulted Gen Prayuth since the 2010 political unrest on how to root out the so-called Thaksin regime

It would believe someone who is normally condemned as unbelievable can still be believed at times. That is, when it's convenient to do so.

out for troll this afternoon are you?

[jayboy]

Seriously, if this is true, it is the worst thing I have heard about the Junta since it took over the running of the country.

If I had anything to do with the education system in Thailand I would have a text book created which chronicled the entire life and times of Thaksin Shinawatra, and I would force every student in Thailand to read it, study it, and test them on it to make sure they knew the truth about this hideous excuse for a human being.

The country would be better off if you cut out the bs and gave it to them (school students) straight.

I can imagine some Thai people looking at him as an embarrassment or a threat but he should not be hidden away and forgotten..

But who would write the text book ? If it was a crude propaganda job of the type you obviously prefer, students would see through it and the lessons would be ignored.The influence of Thaksin has been a mixed one and he is certainly not to my taste but the fact remains he remains the most popular politician.Few (other than dim foreigners) doubt that if hypothetically he was able to run for office in a free and fair election, he would win - even now.It would however be useful for an intelligent and aware rewriting of Thai history for schools.There would need to be a rigorous analysis of politics and history, including the roles of all the major players, individuals and institutions.While the end result would never be to everybody's satisfaction it would be an exercise worth doing.Sadly as anyone with expeience in the field knows text books are already riddled with lies.As for Thaksin he will be remembered when other minnows have been forgotten - not an admirable one, a complex mix of personal greed and sympathy for the Thai majority (fully accept this is not disinterested - but then few politicians are entirely disinterested).My educated guess he will be remembered by future historians as a deeply flawed but great figure, whose relevance was as much for his catalytic influence as implemented policies.Intelligent people will want to know why the Establishment( and their Sino Thai middle class camp followers) hated him so much.The answer says as much about themselves, their motives and agenda as it does about Thaksin.

Or we can ignore reality and chatter away stupidly about a "hideous excuse for a human being."

[rubl]

yes, how could that have been?

“Before martial law was declared, Gen Prayuth told me ‘Khun Suthep and your masses of PDRC supporters are too exhausted. It’s now the duty of the army to take over the task’, Mr Suthep said.”

and this additional point from Suthep might be relevant to erasing the PM from text books...

He had consulted Gen Prayuth since the 2010 political unrest on how to root out the so-called Thaksin regime

It would believe someone who is normally condemned as unbelievable can still be believed at times. That is, when it's convenient to do so.

out for troll this afternoon are you?

Well, in the words of that great, erased figure of the topic "who am I to do such?"

PS the post you replied to I wrote about 08:58AM. To me that's morning, but you may live in a different timezone

Edited September 20, 2014 by rubl

[Suriya4]

No matter how much you deny it this family has support of the people, he was elected fair and square, so was his sister, both were ousted by an undemocratic military coup.

"No matter how much you deny it this family (Shinawatra) has support of the people. True but what % ?

No matter how much you deny it, P.M. Prayuth has support of the people. True but what % ?

I would not hold my breath waiting for an answer ratty, that throw away line was straight off the top of his head, and I doubt he has any more.

Prayuth was elected. He won with a more than 97% majority in the voting counting during the election.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753576-prayuth-elected-as-the-29th-thai-pm/

[tomyummer]

They should make a law while they are at it that you can't be erased from textbooks unless you are truly erased in reality. It's like going half-ass on the commitment.

[englishoak]

So instead of teaching what happened the last 10 years never happened..... morons

[jayboy]

The New York Times in an editorial piece (ie the newspaper's view) sets out the position well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/20/opinion/editing-out-thailands-past.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C{%222%22%3A%22RI%3A13%22}

[whybother]

This is a continuation of a power struggle that has been running since before the Second World War, i.e. to gain control of the Ministry of Education to gain control of the school syllabus.

If you read up on Thai history, the school syllabus, strictly dictated by the Ministry of Education here, has been a tool for the 2 traditional antagonistic forces in Thailand (Military/Royalist/Senior Civil Service vs Parliamentary/Political Parties/Rural Power Base) to push their agendas.

So with the change of power you see a dramatic change in school syllabus. This change to history books was just one in a series. There was a previous announcement stating a ramping up of patriotism. It is all part of a power shift.

A power shift from where and to where? I thought the elite were always in power, and the reason Thaksin was kicked out was because he was trying to take some of that power.

[whybother]

Prayuth was elected. He won with a more than 97% majority in the voting counting during the election.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753576-prayuth-elected-as-the-29th-thai-pm/

Being elected by the people you appointed doesn't really count.

[jayboy]

Prayuth was elected. He won with a more than 97% majority in the voting counting during the election.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753576-prayuth-elected-as-the-29th-thai-pm/

Being elected by the people you appointed doesn't really count.

In the brave new world of El Cretino, it does.