Koh Tao murders: Night crime simulation at Sairee beach to look for clues

[johnlandy]

I have plenty of theories but no one, on TV wants (or allows) critiscism of our hosts.

There have now been dozens of events such as this ranging from murders, supposed suicides, train derailments, plane crashes (with an excess of 100 fatalities) rapes, deaths in suspicious circumstances etc., ad infinitem.

Most remain unsolved (or written off) that it is a joke and if they weren't under such tragic circumstance they would be a joke 'an extremely sick joke at that'

For a country of 66-67 million inhabitants it is salient that there is but one forensic scientist who has any standing in the world (and she walks a tight rope most of the time)

If it wasn't for the allure of light brown flesh I am surprised that anyone visits at all.

It certainly cannot be to see temples of which there are better examples in Burma and Indonesia.

As for beaches Vietnam's coastline is greater than either the east or west coasts of the US of A

Sick, sick, sick sums it up.

[metisdead]

A post containing overly derogatory generalizations toward Brits has been removed as well as the replies.

[robsamui]

I read in the BP that the cigarettes are LM brand. Rather unlikely, yet not impossible, to be smoked by poor people.

You couldn't be more wrong.

LM and Krong Thip are the two brands that Thai people buy.

They see LM as a poor man's Marlboro. Every time I'm in 7-11 and a Thai is buying cigs, it's one of these two brands.

The 'poor people' roll their own.

R

[Jip66]

Regarding the cigarettes (mentioned in all the threads) ...is it not possible, that they have nothing to do with the killer(s)?

There seems to be an assumption that the killer was a smoker and these were his cigs ...on a public beach where it seems tons of people may hang out and smoke and leave butts behind.

If they found a beer bottle on the beach, would they assume it was the killer's also?

"The semen DNA matched DNA found on the butt of an LM cigarette found beside a rock 30-50 metres from the crime scene …."

<deleted> please....

[Lozza]

I read in the BP that the cigarettes are LM brand. Rather unlikely, yet not impossible, to be smoked by poor people.

remember these people are backpackers, a cigarette is just that the cheapest will do, I've also seen many smoking rolled tobacco.

Even if christopher is still a suspect, he passed DNA tests??

Yes, the bloodied pants still plays a big role, with the position of the blood and amount on his pants (he hasn't denied they were his) and were told by friends and witnesses he had them on that night, I must admit I was amazed they allowed him to leave the country.

The photo's are in the (other) Bangkok newspaper?? I was shocked he was allowed to leave after seeing this incriminating piece of the puzzle. They appear to have been in water to ankle or just above and someone WAS wearing them in the water.

[ClutchClark]

I am a bit surprised so much can be made from a cigarette found "30-50 meters" from the bodies.

Especially when it has been stated that the two victims were at a large social gathering earlier that same night in the same proximity.

What an amazing coincidence to find & test that particular cigarette and get a positive match.

I am surprised if they couldn't pull partial fingerprints from it.

I really wish people would stop making comments on an island they have never been to - the kids were at AC bar which is a good walk from the Ocean View apartments they are staying in and involves a walk down a long and very dark road

I visited the island last November. I spend about 3 months a year on Samui. I couldn't tell you much anything about the seedy bar scene of either island though so I will accept your expertise on the matter.

It was reported there was a large beach party near to where the victims were found. It was reported the victims had attended this social gathering as well; however, the point being made was a cigarette found 30-50 meters away from the bodies was collected as evidence and apparently had matching DNA.

It is surprising with the amount of fags on the beach and the amount of discarded bottles in a 50-meter search radius that they found that cigarette.

Its quite interesting how everyone here on TV slams the police for incompetence yet has complete faith in the police crime lab that is testing for DNA.

How many cigarette butts would you expect to be on the beach of a small island then, in your estimation? hundreds? thousands? millions?

My opinion of the cigarette butt findings is this; the killers were allegedly waiting for the victims before they left the bar and made there way back to the beach, in this time, it would not seem unusual if the killers whilst waiting, had a cigarette, sharing it etc.

I would have not thought that there would be 'numerous' cigarette butts in this location, if they had been hiding out before moving nearer to where the attack took place.

I am not disagreeing with you. It could have happened exactly how you describe.

But it isnt the size of the island that matters. Its how many people frequent the island and how many people smoke cigarettes while lounging on the beach or going for an evening stroll or attending a nearby beach party having drinks and smoking.

Its just interesting to consider how much debris is located in a 100 meter diameter of beach.

BTW, have you not wondered why no prints have been reported found on that cigarette butt?

[Commerce]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The police also were sceptical about the blood stained hoe used in battering the two tourists to death.

A police officer said normally a criminal would throw away any weapon used in the murder to destroy evidence. But in this case, they were astonished when the hoe was not thrown away, just lied near the log and covered with a sack.

The murderer struck the victims with the hoe and then put it back to hide at the place, which was very unusual, an officer said.

This indicated that the murderer was a cold blooded person, he said.

Keep making public statements like this guys. It just shows your total lack of experience, and that you are unqualified to investigate a crime of this nature.

I don't see how putting the hoe back where they found it, instead of throwing it away, proves they are cold blooded killers, although I don't doubt they are. Putting the hoe back may have been done to throw the police off into thinking that the person who owns this hoe, like the guy who cleans the beach, is the prime suspect. Like he needed it the next day to so his work so he put it back.

As I said all along I wouldn't count Christopher Ware totally out of the picture right yet. If you are reading this Chris then I am sorry but having bloody clothes in your bag, and leaving in a hurray looks very suspicious. Even if the blood is yours. Especially when Miller had bruised fists and the blood could be from a nose bleed he cause you during the fight. Hope you have a solid alibi.

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I am not sure I would walk my very attractive girlfriend down an isolated beach, after drinking, at two in the morning, and past 3 strangers. I for sure know she would not want me to. But then if I knew at least one person, as in Miller knowing Ware, and he was my roommate, then I don't think it would bother me then. Maybe even give me more of a comfort feeling.

Hum???

Too mch info Goldy..........

[pasak]

Well this new BBC report is about as scathing as you can get away for a BBC reporter about the handling of this and other elements of the LOS: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29262496 and there is another where they say the police openly admit they don't know how many people were involved etc.

Such a good looking couple and what a &lt;deleted&gt; of a police chief.

[culicine]

Can't they tell from the DNA at least the race of the men depositing the semen? I know that can't narrow it down completely but I'm sure they could tell whether it came from an Asian or European. I don't know if they could distinguish between Thai and Myanmar...

No, it cannot.

Culicine, Perhaps then you should advise a correction in the many articles with erroneous information that are easily accessible on the internet, such as:

"Some genetic markers vary more than others, so fewer are required to find distinct clusters.^[7]Ancestry-informative markers exhibits substantially different frequencies between populations from different geographical regions. Using AIMs, scientists can determine a person's ancestral continent of origin based solely on their DNA. AIMs can also be used to determine someone's admixture proportions.^[8]" ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

...but then there is this

http://essays.backintyme.biz/item/44

....I would have thought the current analysis would have mentioned this it it were possible, or perhaps they don't have the specific technology in Thailand to do it.

[metisdead]

A reminder:

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

An inflammatory post has been removed.

[LanceGringo]

Why can I not copy and paste text into the forum?

[LanceGringo]

ClutchClark:

We don't know enough about the area the cigarette butts were found, it could have been a more secluded spot, which you would not find a lot of the typical litter that may mount up on more busier parts of the beach/island.

If the killers were hiding, then it suggests that this may have been in a spot out of view so that they would not been seen, if that is so, then this spot may not typically have had things like the cigarette butts scattered about the place, so only a few may have been found.

Have no prints been discovered on them though, or just not reported? - perhaps they have found prints, but have not disclosed that info publically yet?

[pasak]

Ok, so I wasn’t going to sign up here as there is enough speculation as to what happened on that evening but I can’t help thinking that my information may help someone.

Back in 2011 I was travelling SE Asia and decided to have an extended stay on Koh Tao for two months. I had visited Koh Tao the year previously but only managed to spend a few days on the island. Over the two months I got to know the island rather well and made friends with quite a few of the locals. However, one place that will always stick in my mind, and not for any good reason is AC Bar. Infact thinking about it now, there are three main reasons why that place sticks in my memory.

1. A very aggressive local approached me and a girl that was dancing on the dancefloor inside the bar and literally pushed me out of the way to try and dance with her. I asked what his problem was (in a friendly/non threatening manner) and I was punched in my chest. This was understandably enough to worry the girl I was with and both me and her made our exit.

1. A friend told me that he had a gun pulled on him by one of the Thai bar staff for a similar (non) reason. He was quite drunk at the time of the incident and I was not with him that night, but from what I knew about the guy, he wasn’t one to make up a story. He was living there long term at the time working at one of the dive shops as a divemaster.

1. This is the most haunting for me. I was with a Scandinavian (blonde) girl in AC Bar. We had met a few evenings before at the other popular bar on the beach front (Lotus). It was quite late in the evening and after quite a few drinks we decided to take a stroll along the beach. For those that do no know, there is a single path that leads parallel to the beach (where the cctv stills are taken from) and the bars are inbetween the path and the sand.

   We walked out of the bar on the beach side and turned left as this is the quieter section of beach. After AC bar there aren’t any more bars and it seemed like a good spot to go for a chat, which turned into going for a swim. This is the EXACT location where Hannah and David were murdered. We left our things (clothes) by the rocks and went for a swim. When we returned, we found that everything had been stolen. We searched all around the area but couldn’t find anything. We decided to walk back along the beach in the direction of AC Bar. After 50 metres or so, she found her dress that had been taken from by the rocks. I can only assume that someone was watching us as we left AC bar, followed us, stole our things and then returned that way – possibly back to the bar & discarding anything that they didn’t want.

AC bar has more CCTV cameras that would have covered more than what has been released already. Perhaps even cameras inside that would have seen the altercation that has been reported between a local and Hannah.

There are also cameras (better quality) at the 7/11 that is a little further down the beach path – in the same direction that the Thai suspect was walking.

Also, as there are no bars on that particular section of beach (200m or so) I doubt there wouldn’t have been a hoe laying around. However, there would have been a hoe up at AC bar (nearest bar) for them to rake the sand/dig for the fire show.

Thank you for joining and sharing this information.

Seems AC bar is of interest in this matter and in general.

UK officials need now to insist these local thugs are brought in for questioning and CCTV cameras that have footage examined in full.

If no arrests are made and this story runs cold or worse some Pasty found hung with a confession note by the chair or tree -

The fall out will run deep.

And this go down as a travesty of justice and snub to not just westerners , but civilisation and humanity as a whole.

To shelter barbaric criminals and try stitching up a westerner .

To arrogantly refuse to consider Thais as possible killers in this case.

To Botch evidence and then degrade the victims

Is unforgivable and a diplomatic incident and international manifestation of true Junta disregard for justice and freedoms

That is no overstatement. This is an appalling incident with international ramifications and Thailand must be made to pay.

.

[ClutchClark]

Well this new BBC report is about as scathing as you can get away for a BBC reporter about the handling of this and other elements of the LOS: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29262496 and there is another where they say the police openly admit they don't know how many people were involved etc.

Such a good looking couple and what a <deleted> of a police chief.

What does appearance have to do with anything?

[ClutchClark]

Thank you for joining and sharing this information.

Seems AC bar is of interest in this matter and in general.

UK officials need now to insist these local thugs are brought in for questioning and CCTV cameras that have footage examined in full.

If no arrests are made and this story runs cold or worse some Pasty found hung with a confession note by the chair or tree -

The fall out will run deep.

And this go down as a travesty of justice and snub to not just westerners , but civilisation and humanity as a whole.

To shelter barbaric criminals and try stitching up a westerner .

To arrogantly refuse to consider Thais as possible killers in this case.

To Botch evidence and then degrade the victims

Is unforgivable and a diplomatic incident and international manifestation of true Junta disregard for justice and freedoms

That is no overstatement. This is an appalling incident with international ramifications and Thailand must be made to pay.

.

International ramifications? Thailand must pay?

I bet you got an A+ in your HS Drama classes, eh? ;-)

Why should Thailand pay? What are they being billed for exactly?

[robert888d]

• Thai police are not only corrupt but alas incompetent.

[pasak]

Well this new BBC report is about as scathing as you can get away for a BBC reporter about the handling of this and other elements of the LOS: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29262496 and there is another where they say the police openly admit they don't know how many people were involved etc.

Such a good looking couple and what a <deleted> of a police chief.

What does appearance have to do with anything?

A study in Cro Magnon vs. Neanderthal perhaps?

[pasak]

Thank you for joining and sharing this information.

Seems AC bar is of interest in this matter and in general.

UK officials need now to insist these local thugs are brought in for questioning and CCTV cameras that have footage examined in full.

If no arrests are made and this story runs cold or worse some Pasty found hung with a confession note by the chair or tree -

The fall out will run deep.

And this go down as a travesty of justice and snub to not just westerners , but civilisation and humanity as a whole.

To shelter barbaric criminals and try stitching up a westerner .

To arrogantly refuse to consider Thais as possible killers in this case.

To Botch evidence and then degrade the victims

Is unforgivable and a diplomatic incident and international manifestation of true Junta disregard for justice and freedoms

That is no overstatement. This is an appalling incident with international ramifications and Thailand must be made to pay.

.

International ramifications? Thailand must pay?

I bet you got an A+ in your HS Drama classes, eh? ;-)

Why should Thailand pay? What are they being billed for exactly?

Wake up Clutch Clark. No, on second thoughts just go to bed.

[kurnell]

The beauty of retardation is that one is unaware of one's condition

[ClutchClark]

• Thai police are not only corrupt but alas incompetent.

Thai police have an excellent history of solving crimes.

Its unfortunate you allow your prejudice to control your better judgement.

[ClutchClark]

The beauty of retardation is that one is unaware of one's condition

Thanks for that nugget.

Is it as blissful as they say?

;-)

[jacky54]

• Thai police are not only corrupt but alas incompetent.

Thai police have an excellent history of solving crimes.

Its unfortunate you allow your prejudice to control your better judgement.

They should not have a problem with this one then!

[Alwyn]

I read in the BP that the cigarettes are LM brand. Rather unlikely, yet not impossible, to be smoked by poor people.

Well that brand doesn't exist in the UK. So unlikely to have been bought by British tourist.

LM brand is a firm favourite with the Scandis

Poor people WILL buy more expensive cigarettes when they go to a party , especially when westerners are there . Doesn't look nice with a 5 baht tobacco bag in their hands right ? But usually its Krong Thip not LM . LM ( pH. Morris, Phillipine ) cigarettes are little more expensive and not everywhere available. Foreigners who stay in Thailand for a long time are more likely to smoke it. This is my personal experience and not a statistic.

That's as maybe, LM is still a favourite amongst Scandis though

[ClutchClark]

• Thai police are not only corrupt but alas incompetent.

Thai police have an excellent history of solving crimes.

Its unfortunate you allow your prejudice to control your better judgement.

They should not have a problem with this one then!

Not with all the great expertise they have received from the TV community.

[Tokay]

They are DNA testing women now. I guess the sperm found at the scene wasn't really a clue that the attacker was male.

[Tokay]

• Thai police are not only corrupt but alas incompetent.

Thai police have an excellent history of solving crimes.

You do know that there is a profession here for people to get paid to go to jail for crimes unsolved, and sometimes go for other people, don't you? 100,000 - 200,000b per year is the going rate.

Thai police are unable to solve a lot of crimes. But they usually are able to find someone to go to jail, even if they have to pay someone to go. That is how it works here. There is always someone willing to sit in jail for a few years while making a salary.

Of course, this isn't going to happen in this case because this person is going to spend life in prison. But for other crimes that only span a few years, jail time is for hire.

[Alwyn]

I'm amazed they haven't tested DNA from everybody on the island... But that would mean including Thais which obviously isn't allowed

[wellred]

Thank you for joining and sharing this information.

Seems AC bar is of interest in this matter and in general.

UK officials need now to insist these local thugs are brought in for questioning and CCTV cameras that have footage examined in full.

If no arrests are made and this story runs cold or worse some Pasty found hung with a confession note by the chair or tree -

The fall out will run deep.

And this go down as a travesty of justice and snub to not just westerners , but civilisation and humanity as a whole.

To shelter barbaric criminals and try stitching up a westerner .

To arrogantly refuse to consider Thais as possible killers in this case.

To Botch evidence and then degrade the victims

Is unforgivable and a diplomatic incident and international manifestation of true Junta disregard for justice and freedoms

That is no overstatement. This is an appalling incident with international ramifications and Thailand must be made to pay.

.

International ramifications? Thailand must pay?

I bet you got an A+ in your HS Drama classes, eh? ;-)

Why should Thailand pay? What are they being billed for exactly?

For not knowing how to raise it's people in the correct manner.

[crazykopite]

The village idiot could do better than the police , the horse has bolted long ago maybe they should be taking DNA swabs off all those who remain on the island

[tingtongfarang]

Night crime simulation at Sairee beach to look for clues

KOH TAO: -- Thai police conducted a two-hour crime simulation at the scene before dawn Friday where the two British tourists were killed to look into the exact time of the crime and wrap up evidence to support their earlier investigations for analysing who is or are real murderers.

The simulation started 1.00 a.m. Friday, almost the same time when the police suspected Ms Hannah Witheridge was raped and killed.

The crime simulation was supervised by Pol Gen Charumporn Suramanee, advisor to the Royal Thai Police commissioner.

The police believed the victim was raped because DNA examination revealed semen found inside the victims vagina were mixed, indicating more than one person was involved.

The DNA of the semen matched the cigarette butts the police found and collected from a log on the beach, about 50 metres from where her body lying dead.

Police said they have a witness telling them that three men, who were believed to be Myanmar workers, played guitars on the beach near the scene.

The police simulated the victim walking out of a beach restaurant and she might be followed by murderer to the log where cigarettes were found.

The police calculated the time spent and distances in order to compare with the Asian looking man captured on the CCTV video footage passing the camera back and forth. The man did not wear shirt.

The police also were sceptical about the blood stained hoe used in battering the two tourists to death.

A police officer said normally a criminal would throw away any weapon used in the murder to destroy evidence. But in this case, they were astonished when the hoe was not thrown away, just lied near the log and covered with a sack.

The murderer struck the victims with the hoe and then put it back to hide at the place, which was very unusual, an officer said.

This indicated that the murderer was a cold blooded person, he said.

The officer said now several hundreds of local and central police are combing the entire island looking for the Asian man on CCTV as he is now the most suspected person.

However another source said the police still did not rule out friends of one of the victims.

He cited the blood-soaked clothes found inside the luggage of Christopher Ware. Although he had been cleared that the blood was from cut while lighting firework but this was unusual.

Forensic police said wound from fireworks could not have produced so much blood on the clothes.

But the clothes the police seized from his room was soaked with blood which could not be caused by fireworks wound.

Both Christopher and his brother James have been released into the custody of the British embassy and returned home on a flight last night.

The police will meet this afternoon in Koh Tao to wrap up all findings and set the same direction in the probe.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/night-crime-simulation-sairee-beach-look-clues/

-- Thai PBS 2014-09-19

So the cigarettes match the sperm.

Didn't someone admit that the trousers were an attempted plant, but the.friends are still suspects? Do either of the foreign friends smoke?

Which brand was it? This will give away a huge amount about the profile of the killer/s. Most farangs don't buy Kronthep....

As far as I know the brand of the cigarette was LM not many Thais smoke them I guess

I know a few thais who smoke LM kieow.