Thailand beach murders: Hannah Witheridge and David Miller may have argued in bar with gangster

[jucel]

I'm not a big fan of the Junta, but I honestly believe the PM will do the right thing if the evidence is provided to him .

[ClutchClark]

Why would an English tourist follow a local gangster out of a bar to calm him down?

I would imagine that they were seen earlier in the evening and then followed to the beach by two people, they thought they could knock out the boyfriend and rape the girl but they didn't expect them both to fight back, they panicked and killed both of them.

Local gangsters wouldn't be leaving tourists's bodies on beach, the bodies would be on a boat and disappearing into the ocean. I don't think the local police are protecting anyone in this case as the stakes are simply too high and there is too much international media involved in the case now. The army would not let some little two bit island gangster get off with murdering two tourists I just don't see it happening in today's Thailand they would know the situation themselves and they seem to take enjoyment in embarrassing the police force at any opportunity.

I'm just not buying the weird conspiracy theories, I think it's fairly likely that a couple of low paid Thais or Burmese committed the act and have fled the island since and I believe that sooner or later someone will rat them out. The Thais ALWAYS rat each other out eventually.

The evidence now suggests the girl shared a cigarette with her killer, given the DNA match and lipstick traces. Therefore she had some form of social contact beforehand. Did the killer(s) coerce her out of the bar somehow? I don't believe there are no witnesses.

Would it not have been easy for them to stick the cigarette in her mouth to throw Police off the scent? Did she smoke ?

The cigarette butt was 20-30 metres from the body and without getting into the gruesome details too much just suffice to say i don't think they would have been able to put the cigarette in her mouth. Besides, why do that and leave the bloodied hoe?

Whether Hannah smoked should be easy to ascertain.

30-50 meters.

The likelihood of the accusers staging fake evidence to throw off an eventual DNA investigation?

Seriously? They left their DNA inside of her. These were not criminal masterminds.

Its likely just contamination from the crimelab processing the all the DNA evidence. Has anyone considered how many fags and containers are in a 100meter diameter of beach? This would have taken several days in a well-organized crime lab stateside and this Thai lab had results in a day? This is indicative of loose lab procedures that can indicate the likelihood of contamination.

[laolover88]

Where I live in the UK has a population of c.13000

The land area is c.300 square km

Koh Tao has a resident population of c.2000

The land area is 21 square km

I put my washing out on the line at 08.00. If I have not done it by 09.00 am I get a phone call. Not done your washing, yet, then?. I live in a small Issan town. If my children have not been seen for 24 hours by an assortment of Samlor drivers/Somtam saleswomen/7/11 operatives etc. etc. I get asked where are they? If I was stupid enough to take a young lady to lunch, my wife would know about it before I got home. You telling me The Royal Thai Police, Forensic or otherwise know nothing about Thailand?

[Sena Dave]

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This is when you find out what I suspect already about Resorts in Thailand, The locals look at the Tourists as lumps of meat with large wallets. If it is a "Local" who committed this crime then another local will know who it is , a local will know if someone has disappeared. So the question is will a Thai inform on a Thai for killing and diving away their bread and butter

Was that an unintentional slip? It seems that diving is the island's bread and butter income earner. The all night beach raves are the jam, served by gangsters and other opportunists.

Piss poor spelling unfortunately

[ukrules]

If this guy is a wealthy local I would be very surprised if he didn't have access his own or at least a family boat.

I would be checking the movements of all boats from the night of the murder, with special emphasis placed on any boat which uncharacteristically moved during the night or early morning on the day in question.

[Nemesis7]

Just to cover up the country's image by concealing any true fact will eventually bring the country more questionable in many ways,hope the Police understands that.

[bangrak]

IMHO, when it was not yet done, thoroughly(!?), the AC Bar, and the party there, should be investigated in detail, focussing on 'Asian' people. The staff working there must know the (nick-)names of all regular 'Asian' customers, people from the island, or residing there, or often visiting for business or so, make them 'spill the beans', interrogate each of the ones they name, and go further that way, paying special attention to named individuals who would NOT be on the island, and trying to 'locate' those a.s.a.p.. Also, ask on every possible international media (UK newspapers!), for anyone who has been at the AC bar, not only that night, to e-mail every picture they would have been taking in and around that place, with their possible comments about contacts with 'Asians' there! Further investigation of 'Asian' workers, 'Asian' fishermen and 'Asian' long(er) stay visitors can go on in parallel, but my 'gut feeling' is that at least one of the murderers/rapists were there at the AC bar after the victims arrived on Tao if not on that evening, and this were NOT 'opportunistic' murders, that, at least what the regretted young lady is concerned, there was/were previous contact(s) with at least one of the perpetrators, who would have been the instigator. It would in addition be extremely interesting to a.s.a.p. ask the victims' friends (in the UK now...) whether there was/were any 'Asian' person(s) they would remember to have met on Koh Tao, and, importantly, possibly would have also met previously on Koh Pha Ngan (where they were staying on before). After having become those informations, it might still be necessary to check at the places where they have been staying, eating, drinking on Pha Ngan, their local and transfer transportation, to gather additional evidence.

[davidmann]

Gangsters ,Now ,People how Rape and Kill people are Rapists and murderers ,and they are asian ,about time some truth was said ,

[lucaswallachia]

There is a meant to be CCTV all along the main street so i think with out doubt the murderers MUST of been recorded at some point.

[SOTIRIOS]

....carry the ball guys ...by stating the obvious........for some dubious reason....I cannot post.....

...that will not change the facts of 'the state of affairs'......

....making it 'personal'........ imposing one's ego....is counter to the reason for forums.....

[Mzungu]

This is not really surprising, but again the BIB then bring drugs into it, almost appears that they wish to tarnish the victims of this heinous crime. I've said from the start, it was someone connected, and this is a cover up. Nothing so far has led me to change this belief.

The eyes of the world are on The BIB and so far they haven't disappointed in confirming their reputation.

Just speculation? I haven't seen anywhere that any drugs were found on or in victims bodies.

[mango66]

there were already posts on the early first day,

that the couüple hve argued with some " Thai - or Asien " man in the bar,

why police didn't listen to that for 1 week ??

jut now when all other opportunities are gone,

they start to trace what the pair did on that evening,

very late - might be too late?

And szre the barr keepers and stuff did know which where this guy with might be the

" Yaba pills ";

But on some last post it was mentioned, that all this bar stuff employees have also gone;

They did know why they gone, not just as reason of work permit,

they fear to widness against this drug gangster gang !

As many says on this forum, the locals sure for 100% know who is behind !

Seal of the iland for any business, no income no money for this widnesses and benefiters of drug parties

on this Iland;

And for sure early or later will come out and sing like a canarian !!

( propably you have also to put this police forst in an " inactive " post in the south;

There they will learn to fight for the own " arsch " !!

[lucaswallachia]

This is not really surprising, but again the BIB then bring drugs into it, almost appears that they wish to tarnish the victims of this heinous crime. I've said from the start, it was someone connected, and this is a cover up. Nothing so far has led me to change this belief.

The eyes of the world are on The BIB and so far they haven't disappointed in confirming their reputation.

Just speculation? I haven't seen anywhere that any drugs were found on or in victims bodies.

Apparently the police have done tests for drugs and are not releasing the results out of respect to the family?.......

[Mzungu]

By the way, gangsters do not kill with wooden sticks or hoes. If they do, they don't leave them behind. Nor they leave semen or any traces that will lead to them. This wasn't a gangster. More of want to be a gangster.

[champers]

Presumably the British tabloid journos have certain Police on a retainer so these stories will continue to appear so they can prolong this as much as possible.

Seems a reasonable assumption. CCTV footage and test results should not be getting into the public domain because they can undermine or compromise the investigation. The British tabloids in question have behaved in a way that they just would not be allowed to at home and they have done so to enhance sales of the paper and views on their website. I don't think that there is any altruistic motive involved. Who can get the most lurid and sensational headlines is what counts. Makes you proud to be British - not.

[pajarosis]

Anyone else here is living in Thailand??

If I get it well I heard on tv that they already catched the 2 murderers. They said one is thai and one from myanmar and they were now trying to figure out why they did...

Any news about that??

[iReason]

My feeling is that the local BIB are seriously trying to cover up and protect an island hi-so, and in the process, blaming everyone EXCEPT a Thai. That was evident from the statement about how no Thai could every do something like this. Oh, really? Must not read the paper or watch the news much, as Thai are killing and raping Thai every day of the week.

First it was blamed on Burmese - always the first target.

Then on the friends of the victim - sure, why not. Oops, that didn't pan out so well for them.

Now the focus is on the Rohinga - Next?

Aliens did it? Most likely, but in their minds, it just COULDN'T have been a wonderful, Buddhist loving Thai.

And the list of scapegoats grows…

In descending order:

Burmese

Falang

Bikinis

Media

Rohinya

Mongoloids

Thai Fishermen

Pu Yai? Naaa….

[kannot]

The PM should unblock the DM website and the police can learn who to speak to without having to actually having to do the hard work!

You mean Daily Mail -= DM Website?

Is not blocked in the moment, was once when I tried yesterday evening, but not now,

From Udon Thani in the countryside.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2762055/Thai-divers-hunt-missing-murder-weapon-tourists-flock-spot-British-duo-murdered.html

i live in Udon Thani and use True Hi-Speed Internet. The Daily Mail site is blocked as is any news item on Yahoo UK etc which is sourced to the Mail.

I invested in a VPN when I was in China as even facebook is banned in China, kept the subscription going so I could BBC iPlayer etc, (and the DM website!!)

you dont need to pay but this cant be discussed

[ClutchClark]

Police are probing claims a drug called ya ba - pill available in certain bars on the island - may have been involved in the murder.

Looks like another attempt of the BIB to put more afford into finding any reason to blame the victims for their murder than to seriously investigate the case.

Nobody is blaming the victims...the police have not blamed the victims.

And Yaba was most certainly involved.

[harness]

Why are the killers being protected?

[BestBitterPhuket]

So "everybody" knows that yaba is available in certain bars? And why have the police not shut down or raided those bars? Is the police in Thailand even supporting drugs and narcotics? Is there no limits to how low they can sink?

[tomacht8]

One thing that surprised me about Ko Toa is how late its bars shut. Walking home in the dark on a beach pitch black isn't a good idea. Why did they return to their hotel that way is there lit up areas on the beach now? I've been there twice and there was no lighting next to the beach. Also there is news reports of a second weapon a stick, can anyone confirm this? And the Chris Ware going home is to me strange, if it were my best mate from childhood killed I'd stay and try to help find out who did this to him. The gangster theory seems a little far fetched more over its a national vacationing on Ko To a who has returned home by now.

People like walking along the beach at night because it is a beautiful place. They certainly don't do it to get themselves raped and murdered.

Yes, the Chris Ware thing is strange - some people are strange. But the DNA testing appears to have cleared him.

The gangster theory is farfetched? Really? Why? They are everywhere in Thailand. A vacationing Thai? You think there are no gangsters on Koh Tao? That's a bit naive. Pick an island - any island - and it has a local mafia or three.. .and Koh Tao's is small and totally insular. You'd have trouble getting anyone to bear witness against such a person, unless the police jailed all of the guy's friends and all of his family.

The scenario that has been looming in my mind the whole time has been: Entitled youngster (that's 20s to me) of local mafia family - and one or two of his mates.... used to acting with total impunity, which, over the years, has made the little bastard into an egomaniacal bastard, capable of almost anything. Zipped on speed and booze - the world's best combination for having stupid ideas and actually following through on them. They decide to follow these two or happen upon them and decide to have a go at the girl, and things turn uglier and uglier. If there'd been an argument between the tourists and someone who fancies himself as a local "big dick" with an even more inflated (and falsely based) sense of pride than your average Thai male, that would make perfect sense - and explain the heights of the anger and cruelty. Speeding off his teats, he rounds up a mate or two to "teach them a lesson about who is important around here and showing "the proper respect." And, as always in his life... he gets away with it.

This was the first scenario dreamed up by most people who have lived here awhile... it was certainly the first guess of several people I know who lived in Koh Tao for extended periods. But these police clowns, keen not to implicate a Thai, in line with the nationalistic fantasies of their boss, (Quote: "I cannot believe a Thai person did this"), have been bungling about Keystone-style trying to blame migrant workers who normally wouldn't say boo to a mouse... aggressive Burmese migrant workers don't last long in places like koh Tao - they have no protection whatsoever, and as we have seen, are the first people to get blamed. Koh Tao would not be the place to be a Burmese criminal.

So finally they get on the right track... and it will be too late, and the guy will get away with it.

After 20 years on the islands I can say: Spot on.

It has here on the islands, many thai adolescents with rich parents.

Many do not work and some take all kinds of crazy drugs.

At night to come in conflicts with these groups of intoxicated mongoloids is dangerous.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753644-man-suspected-of-the-fatal-stabbing-of-german-bar-owner-taken-into-custody-koh-samui/

RIP

[Number 3]

So "everybody" knows that yaba is available in certain bars? And why have the police not shut down or raided those bars? Is the police in Thailand even supporting drugs and narcotics? Is there no limits to how low they can sink?

Yes the police know.

And ask them why they allow it and they say that the farangs like it and without it the farangs won't visit.

Yet it is known as a Thai drug of choice but "they have to accept the foreigners ways. " I have been told this by police in Bangkok in regards to the ya ba manufacture and sales.

[Equalizer]

Seems to me that one of the first things we should be assessing is that murder weapon. You don't get garden tools littering the beach so somewhere not too far away from that crime scene this tool belonged to someone. If it belonged to the establishment these kids where drinking then the law of average says someone who was in this establishment is the person/s they are looking for, and knew exactly where to look for the tool they used. Whomever this tool belonged to will now be short of a hoe and sooner or later they will need to replace it. Most crimes are solved if the murder weapon is found, in this case they left it there. Not very smart, we just need an expert on murder weapons to come in and start piecing together how this weapon was obtained. Someone knows who and where this hoe came from this is a fact and this should be the direction this investigation should be heading, not footprints in the sand for Christ sake.

[ClutchClark]

Seems to me that one of the first things we should be assessing is that murder weapon. You don't get garden tools littering the beach so somewhere not too far away from that crime scene this tool belonged to someone. If it belonged to the establishment these kids where drinking then the law of average says someone who was in this establishment is the person/s they are looking for, and knew exactly where to look for the tool they used. Whomever this tool belonged to will now be short of a hoe and sooner or later they will need to replace it. Most crimes are solved if the murder weapon is found, in this case they left it there. Not very smart, we just need an expert on murder weapons to come in and start piecing together how this weapon was obtained. Someone knows who and where this hoe came from this is a fact and this should be the direction this investigation should be heading, not footprints in the sand for Christ sake.

No. No. No.

And then No.

Every hotel along every beachfront in the islands has garden hoes for disposing of the seaweed that washes up on shore nightly.

This topic has been exhausted days ago and it really just brings up an even larger question:

Are farang people really so oblivious to manual labor today that they don't even see all the tools and efforts of the locals who perform these duties daily?

[Commerce]

The standard of posting and gobbed-up, self-inflated ideas and proposals, and irrelevent or even non-backed-up posting, in this particular thread just continues to get worse by the minute. Could we stop the totally non-based ideas, and post at least with some direct relevance and credibility, and references, please. Families are reading, still waiting for break throughs. If you want to pose irrelevent questions, or make insulting and biased passing remarks, please make a thread elsewhere from this site; preferebly on your own facebook blogs where you can interact with people on your own level.

Families are reading, and living in hope of closure. Please, please remember that.

[ChrisY1]

My feeling is that the local BIB are seriously trying to cover up and protect an island hi-so, and in the process, blaming everyone EXCEPT a Thai. That was evident from the statement about how no Thai could every do something like this. Oh, really? Must not read the paper or watch the news much, as Thai are killing and raping Thai every day of the week.

First it was blamed on Burmese - always the first target.

Then on the friends of the victim - sure, why not. Oops, that didn't pan out so well for them.

Now the focus is on the Rohinga - Next?

Aliens did it? Most likely, but in their minds, it just COULDN'T have been a wonderful, Buddhist loving Thai.

where is the statement that a thai would never do something like this??? please post link.

It's been in all the press for the past week......google!

[lucaswallachia]

Seems to me that one of the first things we should be assessing is that murder weapon. You don't get garden tools littering the beach so somewhere not too far away from that crime scene this tool belonged to someone. If it belonged to the establishment these kids where drinking then the law of average says someone who was in this establishment is the person/s they are looking for, and knew exactly where to look for the tool they used. Whomever this tool belonged to will now be short of a hoe and sooner or later they will need to replace it. Most crimes are solved if the murder weapon is found, in this case they left it there. Not very smart, we just need an expert on murder weapons to come in and start piecing together how this weapon was obtained. Someone knows who and where this hoe came from this is a fact and this should be the direction this investigation should be heading, not footprints in the sand for Christ sake.

And they believe there is a second weapon so figuring out what that was should also help.

[bangon04]

what's next? Santa Claus was seen at the scene but has already taken off?

Next is that the RTP offer their expert help to investigate the disappearance of the Malaysian airliner which went off radar over Koh Tao a few months ago and they forgot to tell anyone....

[Bleacher Bum East]

This is not really surprising, but again the BIB then bring drugs into it, almost appears that they wish to tarnish the victims of this heinous crime. I've said from the start, it was someone connected, and this is a cover up. Nothing so far has led me to change this belief.

The eyes of the world are on The BIB and so far they haven't disappointed in confirming their reputation.

Just speculation? I haven't seen anywhere that any drugs were found on or in victims bodies.

Apparently the police have done tests for drugs and are not releasing the results out of respect to the family?.......

Another drug that could potentially be involved is one of the date rape drugs, which are prevalent in Thailand as well.

If you ingest a little bit of a date rape drug, you can get a type of ecstatic high with total loss of inhibition ... if you ingest more, you can end up in a "walking blackout" where you are still active but have no inhibitions at all and no conscious idea what you are doing (the video in your brain shuts off--this is used by thieves to get people literally to go to ATMs and withdraw money without being aware of it, or rapists to get unknowing cooperation from their victims) and afterwards you pass out and wake up with zero memory of what happened...and if you ingest even more, it knocks you out cold and some people never wake up.

If the victims were offered a bucket drink or other drink laced with this drug, they could have been rendered helpless and unable to resist. This could explain how they could be overcome with no shouts or screams and little resistance.

And if the police have tested for and found a date rape drug is the victims' systems, they would not want to reveal that and tip people off (assuming someone is now thinking professionally and logically) because it would go a long ways towards pinpointing possible suspects---e.g. who was dealing and buying this drug, which would be a lot less people than yaba.

Yaba or something similarly crazy-making was likely involved on the killer's end, but it could have been a date-rape mickey on the victims' side.