Bachelor's Degree graduates in Thailand face a bleak future for their careers

[GarryP]

Someone has finally woken up and seen the light on this thread.

Yes, this practice has been going on for as long as we remember in Thai universities. Plenty of dodgy degrees are the fruits of this "no fail, buy a degree" policy.

You are tarring all universities alike. Your generalizations would be funny, if they were not so bitter. Students are being failed all the time. Your "buy me a degree" just does not fit all universities. I know so many failed students that it makes your claims of an across the board "no fail policy" a lie. Students who could not cut it at the better unis so ended up taking degree courses at many of the private universities sprouting up like mushrooms.

[PaullyW]

I think there are a few things being discussed here and some people are perhaps mixing them up. Have at it boys!

Ability to learn

Thais are not generally not "dumb" or any less capable of learning than any other group of humans. Of this, I am quite confident. It is Nurture that is the problem, not Nature.

Education

hais are generally very poorly educated by certain western standards. I think most would agree that this is generally true. But, some might say that, like the North Koreans, perhaps Thais are generally perfectly "educated" or "prepared" for Thai society which is does not value education (aside from the Thai-Chinese) and seems to value far more a person's social status (who their family is, who they know, what they look like, etc.). Thais are very impressively socialized (more than educated) to fit neatly into their roles of servitude and the society largely functions.

However, having a more useful discussion regarding education would require defining the required attributes for what we would consider educated. Does having learned the trained tricks of adding numbers in one's head proof of having been properly educated? And, what is properly educated? Is it being educated to a degree that allows a person to dominate his environment (Thailand) or does it require a person being generally as knowledgeable in a certain field as his peers anywhere else in the world? I would submit that in general Thais would not be able to compete with the more advanced economies, but does this matter to them? After all, Thailand does seem to generally function (albeit at standards far lower than many of us are used to from our old or other countries). And, sure there are a handful of very well educated (even by western standards or East Asian standards) Thais, but most would agree that they are generally in the minority.

Financial Success

Financial success can often have very little to do with how educated someone is.

Career Success

Career success also can have very little to do with how educated someone is. I think we all acknowledge that social aspects are often at least as important or even more important than how educated someone is. We all know the director of a company who doesn't know a dam_n thing other than how to socialize and who is somehow paid handsomely for his incompetence. Thais are generally very good on this social part and perhaps (like Asians in general) disproportionately focused on it.

Culture

So, even if we think about a Thai engineering graduate who seems to be as technically capable as his peers anywhere else in the world, what other factors might influence his usefulness?

• Well, will he be able to confront new problems that he has not encountered before by asking new questions? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority when it is appropriate when he knows something his boss asked him to do is absolutely incorrect technically? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority or others when something is ethically inappropriate? Maybe.
• Will he himself be of strong ethics and morality in his work? Maybe.
• Will he be loyal and committed to his work or will he display signs of laziness? Don't know.
• Even assuming he has acquired excellent English language skills, will he exhibit the lazy, non-forthcoming style of communication culturally dominant in Thailand, or will he display a more open, explicit and forthcoming communication style? Don't know.
• Will he be able to handle conflict when necessary or will he display the culturally dominant trait of ignoring or avoiding the conflict? Don't know.

I think it is these kinds of problems that plague even the brightest in Thailand. Thais generally have a cultural problem when it comes to work and achievement.

wrong ! and thai bashing is thai bashing no matter how you try and pretty it up.

Thai bashing?! Couldn't be further from the truth. Please don't sensationalize my post. Point out for me what points in my post you disagree with and why.

[AYJAYDEE]

I think there are a few things being discussed here and some people are perhaps mixing them up. Have at it boys!

Ability to learn

Thais are not generally not "dumb" or any less capable of learning than any other group of humans. Of this, I am quite confident. It is Nurture that is the problem, not Nature.

Education

hais are generally very poorly educated by certain western standards. I think most would agree that this is generally true. But, some might say that, like the North Koreans, perhaps Thais are generally perfectly "educated" or "prepared" for Thai society which is does not value education (aside from the Thai-Chinese) and seems to value far more a person's social status (who their family is, who they know, what they look like, etc.). Thais are very impressively socialized (more than educated) to fit neatly into their roles of servitude and the society largely functions.

However, having a more useful discussion regarding education would require defining the required attributes for what we would consider educated. Does having learned the trained tricks of adding numbers in one's head proof of having been properly educated? And, what is properly educated? Is it being educated to a degree that allows a person to dominate his environment (Thailand) or does it require a person being generally as knowledgeable in a certain field as his peers anywhere else in the world? I would submit that in general Thais would not be able to compete with the more advanced economies, but does this matter to them? After all, Thailand does seem to generally function (albeit at standards far lower than many of us are used to from our old or other countries). And, sure there are a handful of very well educated (even by western standards or East Asian standards) Thais, but most would agree that they are generally in the minority.

Financial Success

Financial success can often have very little to do with how educated someone is.

Career Success

Career success also can have very little to do with how educated someone is. I think we all acknowledge that social aspects are often at least as important or even more important than how educated someone is. We all know the director of a company who doesn't know a dam_n thing other than how to socialize and who is somehow paid handsomely for his incompetence. Thais are generally very good on this social part and perhaps (like Asians in general) disproportionately focused on it.

Culture

So, even if we think about a Thai engineering graduate who seems to be as technically capable as his peers anywhere else in the world, what other factors might influence his usefulness?

• Well, will he be able to confront new problems that he has not encountered before by asking new questions? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority when it is appropriate when he knows something his boss asked him to do is absolutely incorrect technically? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority or others when something is ethically inappropriate? Maybe.
• Will he himself be of strong ethics and morality in his work? Maybe.
• Will he be loyal and committed to his work or will he display signs of laziness? Don't know.
• Even assuming he has acquired excellent English language skills, will he exhibit the lazy, non-forthcoming style of communication culturally dominant in Thailand, or will he display a more open, explicit and forthcoming communication style? Don't know.
• Will he be able to handle conflict when necessary or will he display the culturally dominant trait of ignoring or avoiding the conflict? Don't know.

I think it is these kinds of problems that plague even the brightest in Thailand. Thais generally have a cultural problem when it comes to work and achievement.

wrong ! and thai bashing is thai bashing no matter how you try and pretty it up.

Thai bashing?! Couldn't be further from the truth. Please don't sensationalize my post. Point out for me what points in my post you disagree with and why.

the whole thing because its nonsense.

[Swelters]

trouble is that the degree of knowledge associated to these degrees is very minimal, in reality they are no better than a western high school leaver and that doesnt mean finisher, it means someone that left as soon as they were able. When these people are still unable to add up manually, spell correctly or even understand an equation there is a big reason they are not able to get work. To pass a degree these days is a joke, they used to mean something 20 years ago when you needed to have a brain and think to be able to p[ass but no longer. Even iv]n schools they teach absolute garbage to the students, they treat them like idiots with their pass no matter what you answer tests and when only one class(out of several at the same level)actually teaches the harder subjects due to the fact most students cannot even fathom what the classes are about it becomes obvious.

Maybe some old fashioned learning and actually having to pass exams to advance or get a degree might help but I doubt it.

I recall, a friend, English teacher showed me one of his tests.....I couldn't believe it:

"Washington is the capitol of:"

a) Elvis Presley

Bangkok

c) USA

Beside that the question is very easy, even if you don't understand anything and make random marks you get 33% of the points. So with just guessing right on a few questions you pass.

I couldn't believe it......

(Some private University)

Actually Washington is the capital of the US, not the capitol, so your english teaching friend needs a bit of homework himself.

[PaullyW]

I think there are a few things being discussed here and some people are perhaps mixing them up. Have at it boys!

Ability to learn

Thais are not generally not "dumb" or any less capable of learning than any other group of humans. Of this, I am quite confident. It is Nurture that is the problem, not Nature.

Education

hais are generally very poorly educated by certain western standards. I think most would agree that this is generally true. But, some might say that, like the North Koreans, perhaps Thais are generally perfectly "educated" or "prepared" for Thai society which is does not value education (aside from the Thai-Chinese) and seems to value far more a person's social status (who their family is, who they know, what they look like, etc.). Thais are very impressively socialized (more than educated) to fit neatly into their roles of servitude and the society largely functions.

However, having a more useful discussion regarding education would require defining the required attributes for what we would consider educated. Does having learned the trained tricks of adding numbers in one's head proof of having been properly educated? And, what is properly educated? Is it being educated to a degree that allows a person to dominate his environment (Thailand) or does it require a person being generally as knowledgeable in a certain field as his peers anywhere else in the world? I would submit that in general Thais would not be able to compete with the more advanced economies, but does this matter to them? After all, Thailand does seem to generally function (albeit at standards far lower than many of us are used to from our old or other countries). And, sure there are a handful of very well educated (even by western standards or East Asian standards) Thais, but most would agree that they are generally in the minority.

Financial Success

Financial success can often have very little to do with how educated someone is.

Career Success

Career success also can have very little to do with how educated someone is. I think we all acknowledge that social aspects are often at least as important or even more important than how educated someone is. We all know the director of a company who doesn't know a dam_n thing other than how to socialize and who is somehow paid handsomely for his incompetence. Thais are generally very good on this social part and perhaps (like Asians in general) disproportionately focused on it.

Culture

So, even if we think about a Thai engineering graduate who seems to be as technically capable as his peers anywhere else in the world, what other factors might influence his usefulness?

• Well, will he be able to confront new problems that he has not encountered before by asking new questions? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority when it is appropriate when he knows something his boss asked him to do is absolutely incorrect technically? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority or others when something is ethically inappropriate? Maybe.
• Will he himself be of strong ethics and morality in his work? Maybe.
• Will he be loyal and committed to his work or will he display signs of laziness? Don't know.
• Even assuming he has acquired excellent English language skills, will he exhibit the lazy, non-forthcoming style of communication culturally dominant in Thailand, or will he display a more open, explicit and forthcoming communication style? Don't know.
• Will he be able to handle conflict when necessary or will he display the culturally dominant trait of ignoring or avoiding the conflict? Don't know.

I think it is these kinds of problems that plague even the brightest in Thailand. Thais generally have a cultural problem when it comes to work and achievement.

wrong ! and thai bashing is thai bashing no matter how you try and pretty it up.

Thai bashing?! Couldn't be further from the truth. Please don't sensationalize my post. Point out for me what points in my post you disagree with and why.

the whole thing because its nonsense.

OK, I suppose you are unable at this time to make your argument. Better luck next time.

[AYJAYDEE]

OK, I suppose you are unable at this time to make your argument. Better luck next time.

having worked with enough thai engineers to know how ridiculous your post is, arguing with its points would be even more ridiculous.

[tubby johnson]

trouble is that the degree of knowledge associated to these degrees is very minimal, in reality they are no better than a western high school leaver and that doesnt mean finisher, it means someone that left as soon as they were able. When these people are still unable to add up manually, spell correctly or even understand an equation there is a big reason they are not able to get work. To pass a degree these days is a joke, they used to mean something 20 years ago when you needed to have a brain and think to be able to p[ass but no longer. Even iv]n schools they teach absolute garbage to the students, they treat them like idiots with their pass no matter what you answer tests and when only one class(out of several at the same level)actually teaches the harder subjects due to the fact most students cannot even fathom what the classes are about it becomes obvious.

Maybe some old fashioned learning and actually having to pass exams to advance or get a degree might help but I doubt it.

I recall, a friend, English teacher showed me one of his tests.....I couldn't believe it:

"Washington is the capitol of:"

a) Elvis Presley

Bangkok

c) USA

Beside that the question is very easy, even if you don't understand anything and make random marks you get 33% of the points. So with just guessing right on a few questions you pass.

I couldn't believe it......

(Some private University)

Actually Washington is the capital of the US, not the capitol, so your english teaching friend needs a bit of homework himself.

Were you "educated" in a Thai university? Washington is a state, not a capital. Washington DC, on the other hand, .....

You're probably an American, though. So your ignorance is understandable.

[KarenBravo]

OK, I suppose you are unable at this time to make your argument. Better luck next time.

having worked with enough thai engineers to know how ridiculous your post is, arguing with its points would be even more ridiculous.

No, it just shows you cannot construct a reasoned and critical argument against something you don't agree with.

You're a graduate of the "I'll hold my breath and turn blue and stamp my little foot" school of debate.

Edited September 25, 2014 by KarenBravo

[thailiketoo]

trouble is that the degree of knowledge associated to these degrees is very minimal, in reality they are no better than a western high school leaver and that doesnt mean finisher, it means someone that left as soon as they were able. When these people are still unable to add up manually, spell correctly or even understand an equation there is a big reason they are not able to get work. To pass a degree these days is a joke, they used to mean something 20 years ago when you needed to have a brain and think to be able to p[ass but no longer. Even iv]n schools they teach absolute garbage to the students, they treat them like idiots with their pass no matter what you answer tests and when only one class(out of several at the same level)actually teaches the harder subjects due to the fact most students cannot even fathom what the classes are about it becomes obvious.

Maybe some old fashioned learning and actually having to pass exams to advance or get a degree might help but I doubt it.

I recall, a friend, English teacher showed me one of his tests.....I couldn't believe it:

"Washington is the capitol of:"

a) Elvis Presley

Bangkok

c) USA

Beside that the question is very easy, even if you don't understand anything and make random marks you get 33% of the points. So with just guessing right on a few questions you pass.

I couldn't believe it......

(Some private University)

Actually Washington is the capital of the US, not the capitol, so your english teaching friend needs a bit of homework himself.

Were you "educated" in a Thai university? Washington is a state, not a capital. Washington DC, on the other hand, .....

You're probably an American, though. So your ignorance is understandable.

Washington is the name of a city named in honor of George Washington, the City of Washington was founded in 1791 to serve as the new national capital. Washington the city is located in the District of Columbia or DC. Your ignorance is forgivable as you are probably not an American.

[AYJAYDEE]

I just thought I'd list a couple of the riff raff jobs; there are thousands more if one looks. Do you think that BMW and Mercedes hires dumb kids who paid for degrees. Boy, if you do you are about as sharp as a cue ball.

BMW Manufacturing. BMW Plant Rayong

"One of the most efficient and flexible assembly plants."

Key competitive advantage to the BMW success in Thailand.

At both our manufacturing facility in Rayong and our offices in Bangkok, we seek responsible candidates who can join our team highly motivated, diligent, self-assured, experienced, and able to communicate effectively at all levels. Do you fit this mold? If so, please do not hesitate to apply.

Mercedes-Benz has approved the building of an engine plant in Thailand, the first manufacturing facility the German luxury carmaker has had in the country in its 106-year presence.

Mercedes-Benz (Thailand) Limited, an automotive company operated under the umbrella of Daimler AG, the world's largest manufacturer of Mercedes-Benz vehicles, was founded on January 14, 1998. Mercedes-Benz Thailand handles the importation, assembly, and distribution of passenger cars and commercial vehicles as well as provides full maintenance and after-sales services to its clientele. We are currently looking for qualified candidates to join the first class team according to the following position

You think everyone on a car manufacturing line is a graduate engineer?

No, of course not but many are. Ford sources 80% of it's needs in Thailand creating thousands of jobs and hundreds of companies to manufacture parts for them to assemble. Each little company may only make a washer or nut but they need machines to do that. When they have the machine and factory space and contract from Ford they go out looking for more business to keep the machine working 24/7 and the process creates jobs for engineers and sales people and admin people. One of the interesting areas of the auto business in Thailand is not the car assembly plants themselves but the thousands of other jobs and businesses that those factories create.

Auto-parts exports by local parts makers and auto manufacturers from Thailand amounted to more than Bt16 billion in January, growing by 6 per cent compared to the corresponding period last year. This is made up of Bt12.5 billion worth of components, Bt2.2 billion worth of engines, Bt1.2 billion worth of spare parts, Bt100 million worth of moulds and jigs, plus another Bt65 billion for other parts.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Tough-road-lies-ahead-for-auto-parts-makers-30203382.html

When I was with the American Army in Thailand when we left we donated all of our used equipment to technical colleges for them to use in study and training of graduates to work on and design machinery of all kinds. Just another example of the many areas of cooperation between the American military and Thailand's educational institutions at the time.

I was just questioning the idea that because ford or BMW build a plant here it signifies that Thailand has some amazingly well qualified populous.

How much of the design and development work is done here. Britain makes oodles of cars, but it also has an enormous amount of designers and development people. That is where the degree holders are needed.

Not many western based companies pay degree holders to stand on the shop floor in their home county.. Thailand has a car industry because of the management prowess and systems of Japanese manufacturing, not because of some inate Thai ability.

the facilities and maintenance engineering skills required to run and maintain the plant and machinery is every bit as important as the design and product development end of any business

[AYJAYDEE]

Washington is the name of a city named in honor of George Washington, the City of Washington was founded in 1791 to serve as the new national capital. Washington the city is located in the District of Columbia or DC. Your ignorance is forgivable as you are probably not an American.

Touche!! lol

[AYJAYDEE]

I just thought I'd list a couple of the riff raff jobs; there are thousands more if one looks. Do you think that BMW and Mercedes hires dumb kids who paid for degrees. Boy, if you do you are about as sharp as a cue ball.

BMW Manufacturing. BMW Plant Rayong

"One of the most efficient and flexible assembly plants."

Key competitive advantage to the BMW success in Thailand.

At both our manufacturing facility in Rayong and our offices in Bangkok, we seek responsible candidates who can join our team highly motivated, diligent, self-assured, experienced, and able to communicate effectively at all levels. Do you fit this mold? If so, please do not hesitate to apply.

Mercedes-Benz has approved the building of an engine plant in Thailand, the first manufacturing facility the German luxury carmaker has had in the country in its 106-year presence.

Mercedes-Benz (Thailand) Limited, an automotive company operated under the umbrella of Daimler AG, the world's largest manufacturer of Mercedes-Benz vehicles, was founded on January 14, 1998. Mercedes-Benz Thailand handles the importation, assembly, and distribution of passenger cars and commercial vehicles as well as provides full maintenance and after-sales services to its clientele. We are currently looking for qualified candidates to join the first class team according to the following position

You think everyone on a car manufacturing line is a graduate engineer?

No, of course not but many are. Ford sources 80% of it's needs in Thailand creating thousands of jobs and hundreds of companies to manufacture parts for them to assemble. Each little company may only make a washer or nut but they need machines to do that. When they have the machine and factory space and contract from Ford they go out looking for more business to keep the machine working 24/7 and the process creates jobs for engineers and sales people and admin people. One of the interesting areas of the auto business in Thailand is not the car assembly plants themselves but the thousands of other jobs and businesses that those factories create.

Auto-parts exports by local parts makers and auto manufacturers from Thailand amounted to more than Bt16 billion in January, growing by 6 per cent compared to the corresponding period last year. This is made up of Bt12.5 billion worth of components, Bt2.2 billion worth of engines, Bt1.2 billion worth of spare parts, Bt100 million worth of moulds and jigs, plus another Bt65 billion for other parts.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Tough-road-lies-ahead-for-auto-parts-makers-30203382.html

When I was with the American Army in Thailand when we left we donated all of our used equipment to technical colleges for them to use in study and training of graduates to work on and design machinery of all kinds. Just another example of the many areas of cooperation between the American military and Thailand's educational institutions at the time.

I was just questioning the idea that because ford or BMW build a plant here it signifies that Thailand has some amazingly well qualified populous.

How much of the design and development work is done here. Britain makes oodles of cars, but it also has an enormous amount of designers and development people. That is where the degree holders are needed.

Not many western based companies pay degree holders to stand on the shop floor in their home county.. Thailand has a car industry because of the management prowess and systems of Japanese manufacturing, not because of some inate Thai ability.

the facilities and maintenance engineering skills required to run and maintain the plant and machinery is every bit as important as the design and product development end of any business

Thing is, these skills can be taught in technical colleges not degree bearing universities. The fact that Thais with degrees are working on the line for bmw or Toyota for 30k is not a sign of progress in anyway. I think its fair to say, that elsewhere in the world, ford or Toyota is not employing graduates on the factory floor.

Its then also about the value added, and that definitely doesn't value the shop floor as much as the design teams. Beyond that of course, every factory will have a certain amount of foreign importer supervisors just to make sure it all works to spec.

you obviously have a very shallow understanding of modern facilities and maintenance engineering. and your outdated ideas of what constitutes a profit centre demonstrates that fact well.

[KarenBravo]

the facilities and maintenance engineering skills required to run and maintain the plant and machinery is every bit as important as the design and product development end of any business

The waiters and dish-washers in a successful restaurant are every bit as important as choosing the menu and the skill of the chef.

Doesn't mean that the two different skill-sets need equal intelligence, or know-how to perform.

Do you know what logical thought is?

Edited September 25, 2014 by KarenBravo

[AYJAYDEE]

the facilities and maintenance engineering skills required to run and maintain the plant and machinery is every bit as important as the design and product development end of any business

The waiters and dish-washers in a successful restaurant are every bit as important as choosing the menu and the skill of the chef.

Doesn't mean that the two different skill-sets need equal intelligence, or know-how to perform.

Do you know what logical thought is?

and it appears you know even less about maintenance and facilities engineering.

[AYJAYDEE]

I just thought I'd list a couple of the riff raff jobs; there are thousands more if one looks. Do you think that BMW and Mercedes hires dumb kids who paid for degrees. Boy, if you do you are about as sharp as a cue ball.

BMW Manufacturing. BMW Plant Rayong

"One of the most efficient and flexible assembly plants."

Key competitive advantage to the BMW success in Thailand.

At both our manufacturing facility in Rayong and our offices in Bangkok, we seek responsible candidates who can join our team highly motivated, diligent, self-assured, experienced, and able to communicate effectively at all levels. Do you fit this mold? If so, please do not hesitate to apply.

Mercedes-Benz has approved the building of an engine plant in Thailand, the first manufacturing facility the German luxury carmaker has had in the country in its 106-year presence.

Mercedes-Benz (Thailand) Limited, an automotive company operated under the umbrella of Daimler AG, the world's largest manufacturer of Mercedes-Benz vehicles, was founded on January 14, 1998. Mercedes-Benz Thailand handles the importation, assembly, and distribution of passenger cars and commercial vehicles as well as provides full maintenance and after-sales services to its clientele. We are currently looking for qualified candidates to join the first class team according to the following position

You think everyone on a car manufacturing line is a graduate engineer?

No, of course not but many are. Ford sources 80% of it's needs in Thailand creating thousands of jobs and hundreds of companies to manufacture parts for them to assemble. Each little company may only make a washer or nut but they need machines to do that. When they have the machine and factory space and contract from Ford they go out looking for more business to keep the machine working 24/7 and the process creates jobs for engineers and sales people and admin people. One of the interesting areas of the auto business in Thailand is not the car assembly plants themselves but the thousands of other jobs and businesses that those factories create.

Auto-parts exports by local parts makers and auto manufacturers from Thailand amounted to more than Bt16 billion in January, growing by 6 per cent compared to the corresponding period last year. This is made up of Bt12.5 billion worth of components, Bt2.2 billion worth of engines, Bt1.2 billion worth of spare parts, Bt100 million worth of moulds and jigs, plus another Bt65 billion for other parts.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Tough-road-lies-ahead-for-auto-parts-makers-30203382.html

When I was with the American Army in Thailand when we left we donated all of our used equipment to technical colleges for them to use in study and training of graduates to work on and design machinery of all kinds. Just another example of the many areas of cooperation between the American military and Thailand's educational institutions at the time.

I was just questioning the idea that because ford or BMW build a plant here it signifies that Thailand has some amazingly well qualified populous.

How much of the design and development work is done here. Britain makes oodles of cars, but it also has an enormous amount of designers and development people. That is where the degree holders are needed.

Not many western based companies pay degree holders to stand on the shop floor in their home county.. Thailand has a car industry because of the management prowess and systems of Japanese manufacturing, not because of some inate Thai ability.

the facilities and maintenance engineering skills required to run and maintain the plant and machinery is every bit as important as the design and product development end of any business

Thing is, these skills can be taught in technical colleges not degree bearing universities. The fact that Thais with degrees are working on the line for bmw or Toyota for 30k is not a sign of progress in anyway. I think its fair to say, that elsewhere in the world, ford or Toyota is not employing graduates on the factory floor.

Its then also about the value added, and that definitely doesn't value the shop floor as much as the design teams. Beyond that of course, every factory will have a certain amount of foreign importer supervisors just to make sure it all works to spec.

you obviously have a very shallow understanding of modern facilities and maintenance engineering. and your outdated ideas of what constitutes a profit centre demonstrates that fact well.

What exactly is the average wage level of the factory floor in Thailand in a car factory? 30k, 40k?

Yes. Maintenance engineers may or may not need degrees. In a western production line/factory I wonder what percentage are degree holding engineers versus Thailand?

And yet output and quality is identical.

I dont wonder , I know. and its obvious you have been guessing all along. a real maintenance or facilities engineer in any modern manufacturing or processing facility needs a degree. period.

[Soutpeel]

I think there are a few things being discussed here and some people are perhaps mixing them up. Have at it boys!

Ability to learn

Thais are not generally not "dumb" or any less capable of learning than any other group of humans. Of this, I am quite confident. It is Nurture that is the problem, not Nature.

Education

hais are generally very poorly educated by certain western standards. I think most would agree that this is generally true. But, some might say that, like the North Koreans, perhaps Thais are generally perfectly "educated" or "prepared" for Thai society which is does not value education (aside from the Thai-Chinese) and seems to value far more a person's social status (who their family is, who they know, what they look like, etc.). Thais are very impressively socialized (more than educated) to fit neatly into their roles of servitude and the society largely functions.

However, having a more useful discussion regarding education would require defining the required attributes for what we would consider educated. Does having learned the trained tricks of adding numbers in one's head proof of having been properly educated? And, what is properly educated? Is it being educated to a degree that allows a person to dominate his environment (Thailand) or does it require a person being generally as knowledgeable in a certain field as his peers anywhere else in the world? I would submit that in general Thais would not be able to compete with the more advanced economies, but does this matter to them? After all, Thailand does seem to generally function (albeit at standards far lower than many of us are used to from our old or other countries). And, sure there are a handful of very well educated (even by western standards or East Asian standards) Thais, but most would agree that they are generally in the minority.

Financial Success

Financial success can often have very little to do with how educated someone is.

Career Success

Career success also can have very little to do with how educated someone is. I think we all acknowledge that social aspects are often at least as important or even more important than how educated someone is. We all know the director of a company who doesn't know a dam_n thing other than how to socialize and who is somehow paid handsomely for his incompetence. Thais are generally very good on this social part and perhaps (like Asians in general) disproportionately focused on it.

Culture

So, even if we think about a Thai engineering graduate who seems to be as technically capable as his peers anywhere else in the world, what other factors might influence his usefulness?

• Well, will he be able to confront new problems that he has not encountered before by asking new questions? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority when it is appropriate when he knows something his boss asked him to do is absolutely incorrect technically? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority or others when something is ethically inappropriate? Maybe.
• Will he himself be of strong ethics and morality in his work? Maybe.
• Will he be loyal and committed to his work or will he display signs of laziness? Don't know.
• Even assuming he has acquired excellent English language skills, will he exhibit the lazy, non-forthcoming style of communication culturally dominant in Thailand, or will he display a more open, explicit and forthcoming communication style? Don't know.
• Will he be able to handle conflict when necessary or will he display the culturally dominant trait of ignoring or avoiding the conflict? Don't know.

I think it is these kinds of problems that plague even the brightest in Thailand. Thais generally have a cultural problem when it comes to work and achievement.

wrong ! and thai bashing is thai bashing no matter how you try and pretty it up.

Thai bashing?! Couldn't be further from the truth. Please don't sensationalize my post. Point out for me what points in my post you disagree with and why.

actually the way its written makes it sound like your discussing a breed of dog or cat or the way the old colonials used to "describe" their natives so maybe not "thai bashing" per se but very patronising the way it is written...

[AYJAYDEE]

I think there are a few things being discussed here and some people are perhaps mixing them up. Have at it boys!

Ability to learn

Thais are not generally not "dumb" or any less capable of learning than any other group of humans. Of this, I am quite confident. It is Nurture that is the problem, not Nature.

Education

hais are generally very poorly educated by certain western standards. I think most would agree that this is generally true. But, some might say that, like the North Koreans, perhaps Thais are generally perfectly "educated" or "prepared" for Thai society which is does not value education (aside from the Thai-Chinese) and seems to value far more a person's social status (who their family is, who they know, what they look like, etc.). Thais are very impressively socialized (more than educated) to fit neatly into their roles of servitude and the society largely functions.

However, having a more useful discussion regarding education would require defining the required attributes for what we would consider educated. Does having learned the trained tricks of adding numbers in one's head proof of having been properly educated? And, what is properly educated? Is it being educated to a degree that allows a person to dominate his environment (Thailand) or does it require a person being generally as knowledgeable in a certain field as his peers anywhere else in the world? I would submit that in general Thais would not be able to compete with the more advanced economies, but does this matter to them? After all, Thailand does seem to generally function (albeit at standards far lower than many of us are used to from our old or other countries). And, sure there are a handful of very well educated (even by western standards or East Asian standards) Thais, but most would agree that they are generally in the minority.

Financial Success

Financial success can often have very little to do with how educated someone is.

Career Success

Career success also can have very little to do with how educated someone is. I think we all acknowledge that social aspects are often at least as important or even more important than how educated someone is. We all know the director of a company who doesn't know a dam_n thing other than how to socialize and who is somehow paid handsomely for his incompetence. Thais are generally very good on this social part and perhaps (like Asians in general) disproportionately focused on it.

Culture

So, even if we think about a Thai engineering graduate who seems to be as technically capable as his peers anywhere else in the world, what other factors might influence his usefulness?

• Well, will he be able to confront new problems that he has not encountered before by asking new questions? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority when it is appropriate when he knows something his boss asked him to do is absolutely incorrect technically? Maybe.
• Will he be able to challenge authority or others when something is ethically inappropriate? Maybe.
• Will he himself be of strong ethics and morality in his work? Maybe.
• Will he be loyal and committed to his work or will he display signs of laziness? Don't know.
• Even assuming he has acquired excellent English language skills, will he exhibit the lazy, non-forthcoming style of communication culturally dominant in Thailand, or will he display a more open, explicit and forthcoming communication style? Don't know.
• Will he be able to handle conflict when necessary or will he display the culturally dominant trait of ignoring or avoiding the conflict? Don't know.

I think it is these kinds of problems that plague even the brightest in Thailand. Thais generally have a cultural problem when it comes to work and achievement.

wrong ! and thai bashing is thai bashing no matter how you try and pretty it up.

Thai bashing?! Couldn't be further from the truth. Please don't sensationalize my post. Point out for me what points in my post you disagree with and why.

actually the way its written makes it sound like your discussing a breed of dog or cat or the way the old colonials used to "describe" their natives so maybe not "thai bashing" per se but very patronising the way it is written...

colonialists learned how to cloak their prejudices in patronizing language centuries ago.

[Soutpeel]

OK, I suppose you are unable at this time to make your argument. Better luck next time.

Seeing as I am direct involved with and mentoringThai graduate engineers, I can argue every point from a first hand/ real world perspective, but franky I cant be bother other than to say greater than 80 % of what you have written is poop...therefore there is no grounds for arguement or debate, as the person I would be debating with has no real experience of the subject he is attempting to debate,

eg I am sure Prof Stephen Hawkings wouldnt waste his time debating the origins of the universe with me, simply because I dont have the depth of understanding of the subject to do so..

[AYJAYDEE]

OK, I suppose you are unable at this time to make your argument. Better luck next time.

Seeing as I am direct involved with and mentoringThai graduate engineers, I can argue every point from a first hand/ real world perspective, but franky I cant be bother other than to say greater than 80 % of what you have written is poop...therefore there is no grounds for arguement or debate, as the person I would be debating with has no real experience of the subject he is attempting to debate,

eg I am sure Prof Stephen Hawkings wouldnt waste his time debating the origins of the universe with me, simply because I dont have the depth of understanding of the subject to do so..

you say it so much better than I ever could. the more these guys post on this subject, the more obvious it becomes that they have no experience in the various branches of the engineering profession.

[Soutpeel]

I just thought I'd list a couple of the riff raff jobs; there are thousands more if one looks. Do you think that BMW and Mercedes hires dumb kids who paid for degrees. Boy, if you do you are about as sharp as a cue ball.

BMW Manufacturing. BMW Plant Rayong

"One of the most efficient and flexible assembly plants."

Key competitive advantage to the BMW success in Thailand.

At both our manufacturing facility in Rayong and our offices in Bangkok, we seek responsible candidates who can join our team highly motivated, diligent, self-assured, experienced, and able to communicate effectively at all levels. Do you fit this mold? If so, please do not hesitate to apply.

Mercedes-Benz has approved the building of an engine plant in Thailand, the first manufacturing facility the German luxury carmaker has had in the country in its 106-year presence.

Mercedes-Benz (Thailand) Limited, an automotive company operated under the umbrella of Daimler AG, the world's largest manufacturer of Mercedes-Benz vehicles, was founded on January 14, 1998. Mercedes-Benz Thailand handles the importation, assembly, and distribution of passenger cars and commercial vehicles as well as provides full maintenance and after-sales services to its clientele. We are currently looking for qualified candidates to join the first class team according to the following position

You think everyone on a car manufacturing line is a graduate engineer?

No, of course not but many are. Ford sources 80% of it's needs in Thailand creating thousands of jobs and hundreds of companies to manufacture parts for them to assemble. Each little company may only make a washer or nut but they need machines to do that. When they have the machine and factory space and contract from Ford they go out looking for more business to keep the machine working 24/7 and the process creates jobs for engineers and sales people and admin people. One of the interesting areas of the auto business in Thailand is not the car assembly plants themselves but the thousands of other jobs and businesses that those factories create.

Auto-parts exports by local parts makers and auto manufacturers from Thailand amounted to more than Bt16 billion in January, growing by 6 per cent compared to the corresponding period last year. This is made up of Bt12.5 billion worth of components, Bt2.2 billion worth of engines, Bt1.2 billion worth of spare parts, Bt100 million worth of moulds and jigs, plus another Bt65 billion for other parts.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Tough-road-lies-ahead-for-auto-parts-makers-30203382.html

When I was with the American Army in Thailand when we left we donated all of our used equipment to technical colleges for them to use in study and training of graduates to work on and design machinery of all kinds. Just another example of the many areas of cooperation between the American military and Thailand's educational institutions at the time.

I was just questioning the idea that because ford or BMW build a plant here it signifies that Thailand has some amazingly well qualified populous.

How much of the design and development work is done here. Britain makes oodles of cars, but it also has an enormous amount of designers and development people. That is where the degree holders are needed.

Not many western based companies pay degree holders to stand on the shop floor in their home county.. Thailand has a car industry because of the management prowess and systems of Japanese manufacturing, not because of some inate Thai ability.

the facilities and maintenance engineering skills required to run and maintain the plant and machinery is every bit as important as the design and product development end of any business

Thing is, these skills can be taught in technical colleges not degree bearing universities. The fact that Thais with degrees are working on the line for bmw or Toyota for 30k is not a sign of progress in anyway. I think its fair to say, that elsewhere in the world, ford or Toyota is not employing graduates on the factory floor.

Its then also about the value added, and that definitely doesn't value the shop floor as much as the design teams. Beyond that of course, every factory will have a certain amount of foreign importer supervisors just to make sure it all works to spec.

you obviously have a very shallow understanding of modern facilities and maintenance engineering. and your outdated ideas of what constitutes a profit centre demonstrates that fact well.

What exactly is the average wage level of the factory floor in Thailand in a car factory? 30k, 40k?

Yes. Maintenance engineers may or may not need degrees. In a western production line/factory I wonder what percentage are degree holding engineers versus Thailand?

And yet output and quality is identical.

I dont wonder , I know. and its obvious you have been guessing all along. a real maintenance or facilities engineer in any modern manufacturing or processing facility needs a degree. period.

The discussion was about thr manufacturing floor comparison to west and east. I would doubt every maintenance person in a car factory in the west has a degree any more than one in Thailand. Its routine maintenance.

Next u will tell me every grease monkey in the local Toyota dealer has and needs a degree. Car construction does not need exclusively degree holding engineers.

Or maybe in Thailand it does, and that would be quite a worrying thing.

lol! now youre referring to EVERY maintenance person! It is painfully obvious that you have never worked in a large manufacturing or processing plant. you have absolutely no understanding of the facilities engineering and maintenance functions.

The more I read this thread and this debate specifically the automotive argument being to get the feeling this is not a Thai/western thing but a western/western thing as dependent on where you come the the world a "degree" can mean very different things

eg in the US people do a "degree" in trades as well, when I worked there I heard multiple refer to themselves as having a "degree" in say welding/electrial/piping etc, on further in enquiry these people had attended a "trade school or technical college" which at the end of their written course work conferred a "degree" for that subject or disipline, now someone coming from say the UK wouldnt see these qualifications as a "degree" but more as gaining their "trade papers" certainly in the UK and other places the world "degree" is very specific in what it means.

So maybe in this argument we have people taking about "degree's" and "Engineers" from two very different persepctives of what they actually mean

just a thought.

[GuruWilma]

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And, let's face it. Most Thai Bachelor degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

lets face facts, most bachelors degrees are not worth the paper they are printed on from most universities in the world these days... alt=thumbsup.gif>

The problem is not that universities are worthless, but its that students go in with no idea about how to take advantage of what the universities offer. While some students are mentally mature enough to make a real decision about what they want to do, the majority are not. I went to a quality university in USA and there was almost no guidance to help you decide what you really wanted to do.

They just say try this class, try that class, and see if you like it. In reality those classes might teach you almost nothing about what you'll be doing when you finish.

What really needs to be done is to let students try working in their desired field for a little bit, and then have them pick the classes they want to take in order to get qualified for it. Instead it's: study 4 years to get qualified and then start working to see if you like it.

Check out Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. It shows that when smart people find out exactly what they really want to do, and then devote themselves to it they do amazing things.

[PaullyW]

OK, I suppose you are unable at this time to make your argument. Better luck next time.

Seeing as I am direct involved with and mentoringThai graduate engineers, I can argue every point from a first hand/ real world perspective, but franky I cant be bother other than to say greater than 80 % of what you have written is poop...therefore there is no grounds for arguement or debate, as the person I would be debating with has no real experience of the subject he is attempting to debate,

eg I am sure Prof Stephen Hawkings wouldnt waste his time debating the origins of the universe with me, simply because I dont have the depth of understanding of the subject to do so..

Oh, boy. Your post gave me a smile. You'd be surprised what kinds of experience I have (including teaching at Chula and Thammasat) and being an executive director at a large multinational finance firm in Thailand. So, I, too, have some useful experience from which to draw and formulate argument. But, nevermind the pointless measuring of our genitalia.

Nevertheless, I suggest you read the following page, taken from the wikipedia article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority, which describes the Appeal from Authority logic fallacy. Despite your experience, I encourage you to take the time to argue your points thoroughly or not at all.

Argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ab auctoritate), also authoritative argument and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy when misused.^[1]

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.^[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:

A is an authority on a particular topic

A says something about that topic

A is probably correct

Edited September 25, 2014 by PaullyW

[thailiketoo]

If my memory is correct there are two teachers one from Chula and another from Mahidol posting in this thread. It has been written on numerous occasions that "Yes, this practice has been going on for as long as we remember in Thai universities. Plenty of dodgy degrees are the fruits of this "no fail, buy a degree" policy."

Time for those two experts, the one who taught at Chula and the one who taught at Mahidol, to confirm or deny the practice of "no fail, buy a degree" has been going on at those two Thai universities. Because if so those Bachelor's Degree graduates in face a bleak future for their careers,

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed as well as other nonsense bickering.

I think the topic is about Bachelor's Degree graduates in Thailand are facing a bleak future, not the UK.

Bachelor’s Degree graduates face a bleak future for their careers

BANGKOK, 22 September 2014 (NNT) - College students in Thailand who are Bachelor’s Degree holders are unlikely to have a promising salary, as the employment market has been saturated with Bachelor’s Degree graduates.

Sirikanya Tansakul, a senior analyst from the Thailand Institute of Future Studies Foundation, declared that Bachelor’s degree students are less likely to have a bright future for their careers than they did 10 years ago.

[AYJAYDEE]

OK, I suppose you are unable at this time to make your argument. Better luck next time.

Seeing as I am direct involved with and mentoringThai graduate engineers, I can argue every point from a first hand/ real world perspective, but franky I cant be bother other than to say greater than 80 % of what you have written is poop...therefore there is no grounds for arguement or debate, as the person I would be debating with has no real experience of the subject he is attempting to debate,

eg I am sure Prof Stephen Hawkings wouldnt waste his time debating the origins of the universe with me, simply because I dont have the depth of understanding of the subject to do so..

Oh, boy. Your post gave me a smile. You'd be surprised what kinds of experience I have (including teaching at Chula and Thammasat) and being an executive director at a large multinational finance firm in Thailand. So, I, too, have some useful experience from which to draw and formulate argument. But, nevermind the pointless measuring of our genitalia.

Nevertheless, I suggest you read the following page, taken from the wikipedia article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority, which describes the Appeal from Authority logic fallacy. Despite your experience, I encourage you to take the time to argue your points thoroughly or not at all.

Argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ab auctoritate), also authoritative argument and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy when misused.^[1]

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.^[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:

A is an authority on a particular topic

A says something about that topic

A is probably correct

lol! one of the major problems of modern industry is the fact that the finance people have been allowed to involve themselves in the production decisions! lol. the MBA is the death of industrial productivity. accountants are bean counters , nothing more !

[thailiketoo]

If my memory is correct there are two teachers one from Chula and another from Mahidol posting in this thread. It has been written on numerous occasions that "Yes, this practice has been going on for as long as we remember in Thai universities. Plenty of dodgy degrees are the fruits of this "no fail, buy a degree" policy."

Time for those two experts, the one who taught at Chula and the one who taught at Mahidol, to confirm or deny the practice of "no fail, buy a degree" has been going on at those two Thai universities. Because if so those Bachelor's Degree graduates in face a bleak future for their careers,

Your reading comprehension skills are poor. Below university level, in fact. How many times must you ask the same question over and over again, like a very naughty boy, until you realize that your question was answered much earlier on this thread? Pay more attention, kid. I won't point it out to you, so go back and try to read this thread again.

Not true. Each one of us has a choice to flame or debate. Simple question. Did you teach at Mahidol and were dodgy degrees the fruits of this no fail, buy a degree policy? If you don't want to answer don't. I know that degrees at Mahidol are real and they do fail people and don't sell degrees. You were not telling the truth.

Some Bachelor's Degree graduates in Thailand face a bleak future for their careers but not graduates of Mahidol or Chulalongkorn because they are both internationally recognized excellent universities.

Edited September 25, 2014 by thailiketoo

[AYJAYDEE]

The more I read this thread and this debate specifically the automotive argument being to get the feeling this is not a Thai/western thing but a western/western thing as dependent on where you come the the world a "degree" can mean very different things

eg in the US people do a "degree" in trades as well, when I worked there I heard multiple refer to themselves as having a "degree" in say welding/electrial/piping etc, on further in enquiry these people had attended a "trade school or technical college" which at the end of their written course work conferred a "degree" for that subject or disipline, now someone coming from say the UK wouldnt see these qualifications as a "degree" but more as gaining their "trade papers" certainly in the UK and other places the world "degree" is very specific in what it means.

So maybe in this argument we have people taking about "degree's" and "Engineers" from two very different persepctives of what they actually mean

just a thought.

its more a case of finance types having no idea what is involved in the practice of professional engineering

[Bwanatickey]

Same as the UK. Do a pointless easy degree and what do you expect ?

To get a job flipping burgers in a burger bar, or stacking shelves in a supermarket.

Education is a big industry, and its growth in the last ten years is down to being able to generate lots and lots of money, for the educators.

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.

[zierf1]

3x?!? That does not make sense. If anybody off the street can just take some classes and make 3x more everybody in Thailand would do it. The whole story is not being told. In my country, supposedly you get almost 2x more if you graduate college/university but that is totally not the whole story. You also need special connections to get those elite jobs and that figure includes all the ceos who get paid millions and millions. Now that every bum off the street is getting them, there is no way in hell the salaries are going to hold up. They are pumping millions of "business" degrees out each year. They are worth nothing.

Edited September 26, 2014 by zierf1