Immigration raid targets Digital Nomads in Chiang Mai

[Beetlejuice]

Digital nomads and similar groups all have sites on facebook and are openly encouraging and teaching farangs how to run online businesses and make money online here and there are those cashing in on these groups by organising meetings and being self appointed so-called digital instructors.

Let this be a warning to those who believe that the Thai authorities will turn a blind eye towards those who create and run such groups, and think they can get away with running these kinds of outfits without the official permissions and work permits. This also applies to certain other clubs that have pay subscription memberships.

Are you in that facebook group. I am. It's for people to network and bounce ideas off each other. A few guys met up for coffee and a guy volunteered info on how to set up WP sites to make money anywhere. No payment, no 'digital instructor' title so I don't see why you're painting it as some hive of illegal activity with spammers cashing in.

That was his post, one 'free talk' is all I've seen.

As for the 2nd part of your post, I don't see this as a warning I see it as validation that digital nomads aren't at risk. The authorities thought everyone was working for Punspace, not AT Punspace. They made a mistake. Then they let everyone go.

As regards there being no payments involved, there are groups where there is those charging fees for instruction, and even for those running different types of instruction groups for free, this could still be classified as doing voluntary work that requires work permits.

My point being; as more as an advisory, that many groups run by ex-pats staying in Thailand are now falling under the watchful eye of the Immigration departments. I know this first hand and these groups should be aware of the fact.

And for those who consider this as BS, it`s up to you.

[ColdSingha]

My point being; as more as an advisory, that many groups run by ex-pats staying in Thailand are now falling under the watchful eye of the Immigration departments. I know this first hand and these groups should be aware of the fact.

how do you know this first hand?

[Harry198]

I am a "digital nomad" and for the people who are not or who keep saying "set up a company" etc it's all stupid and you know very little.

I pay 0 taxes, and nore do I intend too. I am from a country where if you live outside longer than 6 months you are no longer required to pay tax to them. I don't have to pay anything in Thailand either, great ( I would if I had too, see comment later). The whole idea of setting up a business and doing it "the right way" as many who know nothing about working online is a total joke, it defeats the concept of being a digital nomad.

I work as much or as little as I want, sometime I will do nothing, other days I will put in hours at home. I don't need anybody other than myself, nore do I need to setup a business because money goes straight into my home country bank account, and they don't require me to declare anything. Starting a company and running it through there is so 20th century, get with the times.

There's thousand of us running online businesses from here and we will not get 'caught', because there's nothing to catch. There is no buggy man after us, I have only lived here a short time (1 year +), but know people who have lived here for decades working online, nobody has ever been deported, nor will they (see this example today). It's just fear mongering from other members. Sure you guys are right when you say well you technically need a visa or etc, but it's the same as saying prostitution is technically illegal in Thailand.

Also I would gladly pay taxes in Thailand if i was given the same rights as a Thai citizen or sort of visa that allows me to stay here for as long as I want. Since it's fine to work on a tourist visa, I will take that option as I can have a holiday every 3 months to a new country, and ill take my chances on 'not being allowed back in'.

[ColdSingha]

i have to agree with the guy above, i'd much rather my kids grow up self-motivated and self-reliant than some dead end benefits layabouts

cutting edge of the new economy

well done to you sir.

[Time Traveller]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

[Time Traveller]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

[connda]

In reading the full blog posting, it seems that everyone who could produce a passport with a valid visa or current visa-exempt status was left alone. And perhaps a misunderstanding that the people were working (employed by) PunSpace.

So, I wonder if it's really an exercise in harassing digital nomads, or just an opportunity to check visa status for a group of foreigners who are congregated together. I wonder what's next? Will they storm the next Expats Ladies Lunch and ask to see that we all have our passports with valid retirement visas?

I now carry my passport with me at all times. Yeah, I know it's a hassle. I put it in a plastic bag and hopefully it won't get stolen or trashed out.

If you're carrying around all the time, it's just an opportunity to lose it. I'm pretty sure that a copy would suffice. Speaking of which, I think I'll make a copy, digitize it, shrink it down, and put it in my wallet. The passport itself I can always produce with a drive to my home if the Immigration gestapo wants to see it that badly. How many ways can the Thai government say that foreigners are barely tolerated regardless of how much money you pump into their economy. Mai bpen rai.

[Harry198]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

Because Thailand does not care for digital nomads working here, that's why there are so many co-working spaces in CM and Bangkok. If you start working digitally yourself, you will see things from the other perspective and get a deeper insight on how little they actually care. It's like riding a bike for the first time, you are so scared that you will fall and get hurt (this is your opinion on working here as a nomad), but when you actually do it, you know there's very little to worry about. So much so, that people are working in co-working spaces.

At the moment you are not seeing the full picture, you are just making assumptions based on hear say and what YOU THINK is right, which is fine. We have now had two stories stating that it is OKAY for digital nomads to work here in Thailand on various visas.

Nobody was punished today either, they were free to go and allowed to do whatever work they were doing. Nobody is making a 'mockery' of the laws. To say digital nomads are making a mockery, is like saying ever Thai and western person who ever visited a go go bar or brothel is making a mockery of the laws too.

[hml367]

Where is this regulation?

Search engines exist. Use them.

I have searched for years... I have never found a regulation that says that. No one, including Thai attorneys, have ever given a link to such a regulation.

If you are sure I wish you could provide a link because any people have been searching for a very long time.

[Beetlejuice]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

Completely, absolutely and totally agree.

If these fools believe that they are restricted and penalised by the laws, than they should go and start a revolution, otherwise for the present they will be imposed to respect the legal processes.

As I have said many times on TV in the past, the irresponsible actions of these people have the affect of tightening the rules for all of us. Why some people openly flaunt the laws of Thailand on the social media and at public meetings beats me?

[rwdrwdrwd]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

There was no punishment, and it seems, no breaking of the law from the perspective of the Immigration Police. That's the crucial aspect here. It's not a case of 'provoking' the authorities or 'making a mockery' of laws, there have been persistent questions regarding the legality of working online for foreign companies when payment is received outside of Thailand. Recently it was reported that an Immigration Official in Chiang Mai said it was fine to do this and no WP was required, something that had many expats up in arms - understandable given the hoops required for most traditional business structures that involve foreigners in Thailand. It seems that the Thai authorities do not share this outrage.

The search occurred because the officials understood people to be working FOR the co-working space, and when it was clear they were simply working AT the co-working space, and for foreign entities, and being paid outside of Thailand, they were released completely without charge. This is a strong intimation that in fact at present it is considered perfectly legal to work remotely in Chiang Mai for foreign organisations, so long as payment is received outside of Thailand.

It certainly seems that people like to think they have clear insight as to what the laws of Thailand are regarding remote workers, however it appears this view is not actually shared by those that have the responsibilty and authority to enforce them. In my experience, the Police like charging people when they consider a crime has been committed, partiicularly having gone to the practical and financial trouble of setting up a raid on an establishment to catch people - they love stats, particularly when they justify expenditure. That nobody was charged speaks volumes.

If the Immigration department considered these people to be operating illegally, they would have been charged. That they were not indicates that they are considered to be operating legally.

That all said - on a practical level - perspectives and interpretations could change. I wouldn't like to be the guy renowned for every day in a coworking space when / if they decide that actually they have changed their interpretation. In general in business in Thailand, as a foreigner, a low profile is good.

[kaobang]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

epic fail.. check the updates

http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html

[carlpipe]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

Because Thailand does not care for digital nomads working here, that's why there are so many co-working spaces in CM and Bangkok. If you start working digitally yourself, you will see things from the other perspective and get a deeper insight on how little they actually care. It's like riding a bike for the first time, you are so scared that you will fall and get hurt (this is your opinion on working here as a nomad), but when you actually do it, you know there's very little to worry about. So much so, that people are working in co-working spaces.

At the moment you are not seeing the full picture, you are just making assumptions based on hear say and what YOU THINK is right, which is fine. We have now had two stories stating that it is OKAY for digital nomads to work here in Thailand on various visas.

Nobody was punished today either, they were free to go and allowed to do whatever work they were doing. Nobody is making a 'mockery' of the laws. To say digital nomads are making a mockery, is like saying ever Thai and western person who ever visited a go go bar or brothel is making a mockery of the laws too.

This may be true for those with no real connection to a place or person. I too enjoyed the transient lifestyle for a while.

However if you're like me and in between nomading and marriage, then the idea of disappearing for 3 months each year just isn't an option and getting married simply for a visa isn't ideal in a relationship sense also.

I don't mean to sound critical of you, I actually support what you say completely, however it doesn't apply to everyone who is a "digital nomad'.

On another note, while I do love Thailand and can understand its lure for people, I do often wonder why so many people wish to spend 4,5,6,10 years straight in a country they have no family/relationship/business connection to? Is your home country really that bad? Is Thailand so amazing? Or is it just the exchange rate?

P.S. Intended to quote your previous post...

[jspill]

On another note, while I do love Thailand and can understand its lure for people, I do often wonder why so many people wish to spend 4,5,6,10 years straight in a country they have no family/relationship/business connection to? Is your home country really that bad? Is Thailand so amazing? Or is it just the exchange rate?

1 in 10 Brits don't live in Britain anymore. It's pretty bad.

I'm in my 20s and don't want to marry / start a family this or next decade. Physical businesses are archaic, now it's all about crowdfunded online startups, see the latest South Park episode.

[Harry198]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

Because Thailand does not care for digital nomads working here, that's why there are so many co-working spaces in CM and Bangkok. If you start working digitally yourself, you will see things from the other perspective and get a deeper insight on how little they actually care. It's like riding a bike for the first time, you are so scared that you will fall and get hurt (this is your opinion on working here as a nomad), but when you actually do it, you know there's very little to worry about. So much so, that people are working in co-working spaces.

At the moment you are not seeing the full picture, you are just making assumptions based on hear say and what YOU THINK is right, which is fine. We have now had two stories stating that it is OKAY for digital nomads to work here in Thailand on various visas.

Nobody was punished today either, they were free to go and allowed to do whatever work they were doing. Nobody is making a 'mockery' of the laws. To say digital nomads are making a mockery, is like saying ever Thai and western person who ever visited a go go bar or brothel is making a mockery of the laws too.

This may be true for those with no real connection to a place or person. I too enjoyed the transient lifestyle for a while.

However if you're like me and in between nomading and marriage, then the idea of disappearing for 3 months each year just isn't an option and getting married simply for a visa isn't ideal in a relationship sense also.

I don't mean to sound critical of you, I actually support what you say completely, however it doesn't apply to everyone who is a "digital nomad'.

On another note, while I do love Thailand and can understand its lure for people, I do often wonder why so many people wish to spend 4,5,6,10 years straight in a country they have no family/relationship/business connection to? Is your home country really that bad? Is Thailand so amazing? Or is it just the exchange rate?

P.S. Intended to quote your previous post...

I don't like the idea of working a 9-5 or the idea of giving a large % of my salarty in taxes, that are used to fund wars or pay for PMs to have 3-4 homes on tax payers money. I also think the system back home is a joke, but it's a joke everywhere. I am forced to pay a % of my salary and I am left with just enough to eat and cover costs. While huge corpations like Starbucks and Vodafone who millions get away with it.

I don't agree with it so I left. My home country has many awesome things, but I it's too much of a matrix and the yonger generation know this, it's why they are getting out. I personally picked Thailand because it's easy to sleep with girls and it's cheap.

[carlpipe]

On another note, while I do love Thailand and can understand its lure for people, I do often wonder why so many people wish to spend 4,5,6,10 years straight in a country they have no family/relationship/business connection to? Is your home country really that bad? Is Thailand so amazing? Or is it just the exchange rate?

1 in 10 Brits don't live in Britain anymore. It's pretty bad.

I'm in my 20s and don't want to marry / start a family this or next decade. Physical businesses are archaic, now it's all about crowdfunded online startups, see the latest South Park episode.

Yeah I'll pass on Southpark... so you're still floating I get that, thats ok... why is Britain so "bad" and how long are you going in float in Thailand and why Thailand?

Please don't take this as a personal attack, but I am well versed in the creation of online, offline, crowd-funded and charitable organisations. Personally I think that many of thes crowd funded online start-up remove the human element of a business which ultimately leads to a quick buck for some and no long term impact on the community at all. Its kinda selfish really, unless of course youre crowd funding some amazing new invention.

[granuaile]

It seems like the police (regular and immigration) were just doing their jobs, what's wrong with that...? It always amazes me the people (I thought to use another word but am opting to stay civil) who always come out here with nothing good to say about Thailand or Thai authorities. If they find it so distasteful to stay within the bounds of Thai law, and they are really here, why don't they leave - go to Cambodia, go home, or anyplace other than here? What about Thai in their own countries? How easy for Thai to go to them, stay, and work? I love Thailand and the Thai people, that's why I'm here.... If I didn't love Thailand and respect its culture I would go elsewhere.

[carlpipe]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

Because Thailand does not care for digital nomads working here, that's why there are so many co-working spaces in CM and Bangkok. If you start working digitally yourself, you will see things from the other perspective and get a deeper insight on how little they actually care. It's like riding a bike for the first time, you are so scared that you will fall and get hurt (this is your opinion on working here as a nomad), but when you actually do it, you know there's very little to worry about. So much so, that people are working in co-working spaces.

At the moment you are not seeing the full picture, you are just making assumptions based on hear say and what YOU THINK is right, which is fine. We have now had two stories stating that it is OKAY for digital nomads to work here in Thailand on various visas.

Nobody was punished today either, they were free to go and allowed to do whatever work they were doing. Nobody is making a 'mockery' of the laws. To say digital nomads are making a mockery, is like saying ever Thai and western person who ever visited a go go bar or brothel is making a mockery of the laws too.

This may be true for those with no real connection to a place or person. I too enjoyed the transient lifestyle for a while.

However if you're like me and in between nomading and marriage, then the idea of disappearing for 3 months each year just isn't an option and getting married simply for a visa isn't ideal in a relationship sense also.

I don't mean to sound critical of you, I actually support what you say completely, however it doesn't apply to everyone who is a "digital nomad'.

On another note, while I do love Thailand and can understand its lure for people, I do often wonder why so many people wish to spend 4,5,6,10 years straight in a country they have no family/relationship/business connection to? Is your home country really that bad? Is Thailand so amazing? Or is it just the exchange rate?

P.S. Intended to quote your previous post...

I don't like the idea of working a 9-5 or the idea of giving a large % of my salarty in taxes, that are used to fund wars or pay for PMs to have 3-4 homes on tax payers money. I also think the system back home is a joke, but it's a joke everywhere. I am forced to pay a % of my salary and I am left with just enough to eat and cover costs. While huge corpations like Starbucks and Vodafone who millions get away with it.

I don't agree with it so I left. My home country has many awesome things, but I it's too much of a matrix and the yonger generation know this, it's why they are getting out. I personally picked Thailand because it's easy to sleep with girls and it's cheap.

Enjoy it while you can.... be kind to people while you're at it

P.S. We don't get to choose what our taxes our spent on - nobody should be exempt from this, legal or not - its a community responsibility plus its a complete cop out to refer to wars etc

[philw]

If you're breaking the law and stupid enough to do it out in the open you probably deserve the punishment. Digital nomads - whatever the hell that is - often say how they can do their job anywhere. Well why would anyone provoke the authorities by all getting together in the same place to make a mockery of the laws?

Completely, absolutely and totally agree.

If these fools believe that they are restricted and penalised by the laws, than they should go and start a revolution, otherwise for the present they will be imposed to respect the legal processes.

As I have said many times on TV in the past, the irresponsible actions of these people have the affect of tightening the rules for all of us. Why some people openly flaunt the laws of Thailand on the social media and at public meetings beats me?

As John Cleese said to his wife "my god you are ugly........"

Beats me to, where is the openly flaunting of the law ??

Can you cite something specific, other than your wifes son is a cop ??

Thailand actually does has a partially coherent legal system and a code of law ( even though variably enforced ) ( by people like your cop relative ) so please stop your scaremongering and either cite some specifics or shut up.

[Harry198]

Enjoy it while you can.... be kind to people while you're at it

P.S. We don't get to choose what our taxes our spent on - nobody should be exempt from this, legal or not - its a community responsibility plus its a complete cop out to refer to wars etc

I don't belive in taxes, thus I don't pay them. If my own country wants remove my citizenship, I would not care. Just because something is written down on a piece of paper doesnt mean I SHOULD do it. I do what I think is just and right, and will follow the path it takes me. But we are going a bit off topic, so feel free to continue this in PM. Otherwise I will try to keep it more on topic to the news thread. *thumbs up*

[SoiBiker]

So we should all stay in our home countries because you feel that's where we belong?

No thanks. It's a big, beautiful world and I'd like to experience as much of it as I can. I don't need any more reason than that to live in a different part of it for a few years.

[SoiBiker]

I don't belive in taxes, thus I don't pay them.

That's fine. As long as you also don't believe in public services, and don't use any that the rest of us pay for.

[rwdrwdrwd]

It seems like the police (regular and immigration) were just doing their jobs, what's wrong with that...? It always amazes me the people (I thought to use another word but am opting to stay civil) who always come out here with nothing good to say about Thailand or Thai authorities. If they find it so distasteful to stay within the bounds of Thai law, and they are really here, why don't they leave - go to Cambodia, go home, or anyplace other than here? What about Thai in their own countries? How easy for Thai to go to them, stay, and work? I love Thailand and the Thai people, that's why I'm here.... If I didn't love Thailand and respect its culture I would go elsewhere.

Did you read through this thread before commenting?

Who is complaining about the police or immigration?

Who is operating outside of the bounds of Thai law?

To break it down:

1 - The immigration police raided a co-working space under the suspicion that the people there were working FOR the co-working space.

2 - The people in the co-working space were taken for questioning.

3 - Once it was determined that they were not employed by the co-working space, the people who were questioned were released without charge.

Points to take from this:

• Nobody is complaining about police or immigration conduct. Beyond a couple of people claiming it is a waste of resource - which, to be fair, it turned out to be.
• The people in the co-working space were not considered to be operating outside the bounds of Thai law.

Why are you rolling out the 'if you don't like it go elsewhere' comment and defending the police from non existent criticism? Those questioned were released without any charges - generally that means the person questioned did nothing wrong.

[Thai at Heart]

I have almost given up to comment on these kind of posts - by now it is obvious that Thailand is addicted to self destruction.

Thai mafia rapist killers go free and a foreigner who sold his 2nd hand guitar back home through ebay using free WiFi at a cafe in Thailand is named a digital nomad, put in the slammer, sentenced and deported...

Thailand - hub of balanced priorities...

The complete and utter inability to think and question the rationale of why things are in Thailand is astounding.

[Beetlejuice]

Enjoy it while you can.... be kind to people while you're at it

P.S. We don't get to choose what our taxes our spent on - nobody should be exempt from this, legal or not - its a community responsibility plus its a complete cop out to refer to wars etc

I don't belive in taxes, thus I don't pay them. If my own country wants remove my citizenship, I would not care. Just because something is written down on a piece of paper doesnt mean I SHOULD do it. I do what I think is just and right, and will follow the path it takes me. But we are going a bit off topic, so feel free to continue this in PM. Otherwise I will try to keep it more on topic to the news thread. *thumbs up*

And does this also pertain to your views regarding the laws of Thailand? That also happen to be officially written.

[DiamondKing]

If this type of large scale 'digital nomad' office thingy is really going to be classed as an OK activity for foreigners in LOS - Then Yoo-Haa! I'm cancelling my Work Permit, my 4 (real) Thai staff and the missus are getting the boot, then I'm gonna rush and buy myself a wife beater t-shirt, some fishermen's trousers, and a pair of flip flops - and I'm now a digital Nomad out every night blowing my 1Mill Baht annual savings on Beer Laos and street meat. Fantastic!

Ahh so your vision of a Digital Nomad is a wifebeater fishermens trousers and flip flops LOL shows you are an ignoramous and as for your I Mil baht annual savings LOL I know people who make a Million baht a month and some that do that in a day LOL even a shitty DN makes at least $100K a year

Keep thinking like that haha or if you were really smart you might actually find out what they do instead of dissing them haha

Sounds like your a bit jealous

[Harry198]

Did you read through this thread before commenting?

Who is complaining about the police or immigration?

Who is operating outside of the bounds of Thai law?

To break it down:

1 - The immigration police raided a co-working space under the suspicion that the people there were working FOR the co-working space.

2 - The people in the co-working space were taken for questioning.

3 - Once it was determined that they were not employed by the co-working space, the people who were questioned were released without charge.

Points to take from this:

• Nobody is complaining about police or immigration conduct. Beyond a couple of people claiming it is a waste of resource - which, to be fair, it turned out to be.
• The people in the co-working space were not considered to be operating outside the bounds of Thai law.

Why are you rolling out the 'if you don't like it go elsewhere' comment and defending the police from non existent criticism? They were released without any charges - generally that means the person questioned did nothing wrong.

I think this somes it up nicely.

And does this also pertain to your views regarding the laws of Thailand? That also happen to be officially written.

No comment.

[jspill]

I don't belive in taxes, thus I don't pay them.

That's fine. As long as you also don't believe in public services, and don't use any that the rest of us pay for.

Don't need income tax to pay for those. http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/taxes/

[CMHomeboy78]

Where is this regulation?

Search engines exist. Use them.

I have searched for years... I have never found a regulation that says that. No one, including Thai attorneys, have ever given a link to such a regulation.

If you are sure I wish you could provide a link because any people have been searching for a very long time.

I don't think such a law exists.

If it did, surely someone would have found it by now.

[kennypowers]

At the end of the day, excuses and "I think I'm outside the law because..." explanations aside, it's still illegal and there is no visa that suits the digital nomad - as fully outlined here http://www.thethailandlife.com/working-online-thailand