Will you go to Koh Tao?

[jdinasia]

Well me and the misses have been scrimping and saving for a year now, we jet off for Koh Tao next month with the intention of staying for around 9-12 months. With everything that has happened, it has worried me a little but we have literally put everything into this move, it is too late for us to back out now.

I have been to Koh Tao before and obviously I'm going again. I just feel that even though this tragedy has happened, it is still a beautiful island with good people living there and independent businesses that rely on tourists. It's not fair to just condemn a whole island/community just because this crime has occurred.

It all has put me in a difficult position. I am financially invested into the move, but I am also concerned about the safety of myself and more importantly, my misses. This being said, we are going and I can't wait!

It's a beautiful island with the majority of people being good, and I'm going to be underwater most of the time anyway.

In my day, as a school child, if one class member broke the rules but was not caught - the whole class was punished until they gave him up!

Do you think that the locals don't know who did this?

Do you think this is the first, only and last time it will happen?

When there is no punishment, there is no incentive to change behaviour!

If they are rewarded with more tourists (marks) they are given to go ahead to continue.

Hope you are safe on your holiday.

To the pure, all things are pure.

You are aware that collective punishment is both wrong and illegal, aren't you??

How so?

How so? Really??

It violates the basic principles of justice.

We are not in kindergarten. Punishing the innocent to force them to sacrifice someone is as wrong as extracting confessions by force.

So how does accessory before or after the fact work then?

Totally unrelated to collective punishment.

[Frax]

Surely it's not fair to punish hard working people that need the tourism to live, look after their families etc. Even if some people do know something, not everyone will. You're suggesting something that the Nazis did during the war.

Think of the children!

More recently... Blockade of Gaza.

Luckily people still have the freedom to visit Koh Tao.

[transam]

Surely it's not fair to punish hard working people that need the tourism to live, look after their families etc. Even if some people do know something, not everyone will. You're suggesting something that the Nazis did during the war.

Think of the children!

More recently... Blockade of Gaza.

Luckily people still have the freedom to visit Koh Tao.

Yeh, daft folk...

[jdinasia]

Surely it's not fair to punish hard working people that need the tourism to live, look after their families etc. Even if some people do know something, not everyone will. You're suggesting something that the Nazis did during the war.

Think of the children!

More recently... Blockade of Gaza.

Luckily people still have the freedom to visit Koh Tao.

Yeh, daft folk...

If I had the free time right now I'd be heading that way.

[canuckamuck]

I certainly do feel for any legitimate business owners on the Island, or people who are already committed in other ways, like Frax.

It is unfortunate that the families have created this underworld environment. Hopefully those in the know will be willing to the throw the guilty under the bus and let the island get back to business.

[draftvader]

Unfortunately, as they same back home, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs (which is a rubbish saying). If these people feel it in their pockets they're going to be more willing to tell their story. It sounds like a lot of people will be better off without the present "systems" in place!

[jdinasia]

Unfortunately, as they same back home, you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs (which is a rubbish saying). If these people feel it in their pockets they're going to be more willing to tell their story. It sounds like a lot of people will be better off without the present "systems" in place!

Replying to your post and the one above.

Your idea is coercion that rates right up there with beating a confession out of someone. It'd be just as easy to throw someone else under the bus.

[draftvader]

No. The idea is to ensure that not a single THB hits these people's pockets until justice has been done. For the record I'm stopping nobody, I can't. I am expressing my opinion. That is not the same as beating a confession. Not standing up for people against bullies is an issue. When there is a transparent investigation then I will no longer recommend this course of action to my friends and family.

[canuckamuck]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

[jdinasia]

No. The idea is to ensure that not a single THB hits these people's pockets until justice has been done. For the record I'm stopping nobody, I can't. I am expressing my opinion. That is not the same as beating a confession. Not standing up for people against bullies is an issue. When there is a transparent investigation then I will no longer recommend this course of action to my friends and family.

It is collective punishment pure and simple.

It doesn't offer justice, it encourages scapegoating. Unless,of course, you think you know who is guilty and accept no other answer... Regardless of evidence.

[jdinasia]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

Faulty logic.

It is more than a little ironic that beating confessions out of someone is acceptable to you.

[laislica]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

Faulty logic.

It is more than a little ironic that beating confessions out of someone is acceptable to you.

You are entitled to your opinion

I am entitled to mine.

So be it.

Opinions have been stated, no need to beat me into submission?

[jdinasia]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

Faulty logic.

It is more than a little ironic that beating confessions out of someone is acceptable to you.

You are entitled to your opinion

I am entitled to mine.

So be it.

Opinions have been stated, no need to beat me into submission?

Please reply to the post you are discussing and not someone else's post.

I assume you are referring to me correcting your attempt at making collective punishment acceptable.....

[canuckamuck]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

Faulty logic.

It is more than a little ironic that beating confessions out of someone is acceptable to you.

Faulty logic for sure, but not mine, yours.

I never implied that beating a confession out of somebody is acceptable. My comment (amplified version) was that they have already done so (not directly but their private police force did it for them). So if they are going to make someone pay, why not get the one that deserves it. the guys that put them in this mess in the first place.

Edited to add: I shouldn't have to point out that it is the people on your side of the argument that is quite satisfied with confession under duress.

[jdinasia]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

Faulty logic.

It is more than a little ironic that beating confessions out of someone is acceptable to you.

Faulty logic for sure, but not mine, yours.

I never implied that beating a confession out of somebody is acceptable. My comment (amplified version) was that they have already done so (not directly but their private police force did it for them). So if they are going to make someone pay, why not get the one that deserves it. the guys that put them in this mess in the first place.

"why not do it right "

[canuckamuck]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

Faulty logic.

It is more than a little ironic that beating confessions out of someone is acceptable to you.

Faulty logic for sure, but not mine, yours.

I never implied that beating a confession out of somebody is acceptable. My comment (amplified version) was that they have already done so (not directly but their private police force did it for them). So if they are going to make someone pay, why not get the one that deserves it. the guys that put them in this mess in the first place.

"why not do it right "

alternatively, "do the right thing"

[jdinasia]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

Faulty logic.

It is more than a little ironic that beating confessions out of someone is acceptable to you.

Faulty logic for sure, but not mine, yours.

I never implied that beating a confession out of somebody is acceptable. My comment (amplified version) was that they have already done so (not directly but their private police force did it for them). So if they are going to make someone pay, why not get the one that deserves it. the guys that put them in this mess in the first place.

"why not do it right "

alternatively, "do the right thing"

Since you think they offered up a patsy.. And you want to use collective punishment why would they not just offer up a different one?

[canuckamuck]

Well that wouldn't fit under my definition of, do the right thing.

[jdinasia]

Well that wouldn't fit under my definition of, do the right thing.

Yet it is the most probable result of your proposed plan of action... And you did say "do it right" when discussing beating confessions out of someone.

[jdinasia]

Well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right. Assuming they know the truth and have the means to prove it.

Faulty logic.

It is more than a little ironic that beating confessions out of someone is acceptable to you.

Faulty logic for sure, but not mine, yours.

I never implied that beating a confession out of somebody is acceptable. My comment (amplified version) was that they have already done so (not directly but their private police force did it for them). So if they are going to make someone pay, why not get the one that deserves it. the guys that put them in this mess in the first place.

Edited to add: I shouldn't have to point out that it is the people on your side of the argument that is quite satisfied with confession under duress.

Nice edit after a reply.

Again "well they have already beat a confession out of someone. Why not do it right?"

[canuckamuck]

I have already clarified my statement. But you choose to misunderstand. That seems to be a thing with you.

Just for future reference I was suggesting that the island families know who the guilty parties are and that they should expose them.

that is not collective punishment, which you erroneously attributed to me. That is people showing some integrity; and some business sense as well.

[jdinasia]

BTW my side is a trial and not theorists' convoluted twists.

And in this thread it is I will be going to Koh Tao soon.

[jdinasia]

Anyone who has a business there including dive centres will be desperate for people to come back. I spent 3 months there a few years ago but I won't ever go back now. If people can get away with murder there its not a place I want to be.

Currently only at 90% full occupancy.

[jdinasia]

I have already clarified my statement. But you choose to misunderstand. That seems to be a thing with you.

Just for future reference I was suggesting that the island families know who the guilty parties are and that they should expose them.

that is not collective punishment, which you erroneously attributed to me. That is people showing some integrity; and some business sense as well.

That explanation doesn't match with your statement. You were not unclear in your initial statement. Nor have you ever addressed that something similar happened in CNX other than suggesting that CNX has more tourists. In fact there have been quite a few suspicious deaths in CNX. But hey.. We can just overlook those!!

[canuckamuck]

When you live in Thailand long enough you gain the ability to drown out all the background noise. I am doing that now.

[jdinasia]

When you live in Thailand long enough you gain the ability to drown out all the background noise. I am doing that now.

Guess my many years here left me more aware than others.

[laislica]

How about a "reverse poll"?

If the people of Koh Tao stood up for justice, right and wrong, and made sure that the killers were caught, instead of this wall of silence and stitch ups. Would you visit Koh Tao?

Yes, absolutely I would. I would be happy to spend my hard earned somewhere people had a conscience, where they cared about doing the right thing, rather than protecting these people.

I reality I don't think I'll be going back, as much as I would love to see change, it is not happening.

Indeed, the people should stand up and give the killers up.

I know that jdinasia has other views and called it collective punishment but I call it

DOING THE RIGHT THING!

[smotherb]

jdinasia said, "You say the perpetrators got away with it."

Pay attention my friend, I said, " . . . if the perpetrators actually got away with it . . ."

[kurnell]

Killers should be done away with Thai style and left floating

[jdinasia]

jdinasia said, "You say the perpetrators got away with it."

Pay attention my friend, I said, " . . . if the perpetrators actually got away with it . . ."

Conceded. My mistake.