NGO questions if the two Myanmar suspects are scapegoats

[Strangebrew]

Simple Put Thailand tourism on a blacklist till they submit DNA to either The FBI or other independent Testing lab. Also get DNA from village and both Son's If innocent then they would agree if guilty then they run.

[mango66]

Yes, they are scapegoats. Is the pope Catholic? Does the grizzly crap in the forest? Weren't the cops beating the crap out of some guy the other day and offering him 3/4 million baht to give false testimony? Evidently they found some other "witnesses" whose resolve was not so strong. This whole debacle, and especially the actions of the cops, stinks like a huge pile of cat dung. And for me, the most discouraging thing is Prayuth. Before this, I was having high hopes for Thailand, now I am not so sure.

Alfalfa ! I agree with you !

PM already announced to price and grant the successfull pol officers -

for what ?

Because they proofed !

It couldn't be done by Thais !!

[coma]

What is the British foriegn affairs doing about it ?

[SjaakNL2013]

I am glad that one lady in this circus have balls and dare to stand up.

For the two boys I see dark clouds as it's almost normal practice here that fellow prisoners get angry and will kill the 2 suspects so we can forget this case and all happy after all. Who care for those two? I hope the lady do....

[darren84310]

The only way to solve the "stand-off" between "they are guilty" and "no they're not" is for independent qualified 3rd party analysis of all the DNA obtained and the collection of DNA from all those who have refused to allow DNA sampling (I assume from what has been said previously - that some people have refused). Only then will the real fact be known - however I would think this is very unlikely for a number of reason -- that I leave for you to answer.

Totally agree... Big questions to be asked... How is it that these migrant workers had escaped being tested for DNA for almost 3 weeks?... it's a very small island... if guilty, why didn't they run?... seems convenient that they suddenly found them now.... why was the head man's son ever a prime suspect if he wasn't even on the island as he was apparently in Bangkok....and have they ever tested his DNA?... sounds fishy to me.

[mango66]

Those who have the fortitude to look at the pictures of the bodies on the nasty Death and Reality website will notice that Hannah was murdered in almost ritualistic fashion. The murdererers must have held her down to rape her and then continued to hold her down while one of them picked up the hoe and savagely struck at her face repeatedly until he had obliterated her features completely. There are no visible marks elsewhere on her violated body. He must have been very angry with her for some reason and wanted to wipe out her pretty face. Probably the first or second deep wound into her brain had already killed her and silenced her as a witness. So why keep on chopping repeatedly? This seems to be more than the action of a rapist who wants to eliminate a witness. They commonly strangle their victims which provides the added advantage that the victim can't cry out while she is dying in agony. I wonder why the killer was so angry. There is no suggestion that the Burmese had been harassing Hannah or trying to pick her up and then felt slighted. They were lowly illegal workers with no money and limited linguistic skills. They are also very slightly build men. I wonder if one of them holding her down would have been enough for the other to rape and murder her.

David's body was found some distance from Hannah's and in one of the pictures it looks as if it was found in the water. He had deep duts in his face but the pattern is completely different. There was no attempt to obliterate his features. It is possible they chopped at his head to make sure he was dead when he was already unconscious and perhaps tried to drown him before or after the horrible chopping. But it seems likely the intention was just to kill him to silence him as a witness and/ or get him out of the way first, without repeated angy chopping after he was obviously dead. The struggle with David seems to have taken place both on the beach and in the water's edge, unless they dragged him unconscious to the water to try to drown him. Given that David was a big, strong young man, it must have been very a very demanding struggle for these two weedy looking Burmese. If the fight with David and his murder which must have taken all the two men's strength took place first, what was Hannah doing? Was she waiting in terror for the two men to finish murdering her friend and start raping and murdering her? Why didn't she run as fast as she could to get help for David? There are no signs of injury to her body suggesting that she was incapable of running. If David was taken unawares and knocked unconscious first, it would still have taken both men to drag him to the water to try to drown him. If Hannah was raped and murdered first, which clearly also required at least the full strength of both these men, what was David doing at the time.

How many men were there?

More than 2 you would think yes. 5 or 6 different wounds to David alone, and there were inital reports of his hands looking like he had been fighting with them

To be honest it feels like the only realistic chance of the true events of that night coming out is if Sean does know what happened and tells someone, ideally the UK authorities. If that happened whether they acted upon it is another matter, and whether the general public ever got to know would be unlikely probably

Here is some evidence!

I think you are saying the wounds on David's body are not consistent with the size, weight and shape of a garden hoe. Yes, they look too small and could have been made by a small, broad sharp instrument. Police have mentioned that there was a second murder weapon which they have not identified or found. However, they said it was a blunt instrument. If that is the case, there are likely two more murder weapons in addition to the hoe.

And look at the body sice of this Burmese teenager !

he had a fight with Miller which is 2 heads toller,

Miller have 8 stiches in his fore head, and the Burmese nothiung,

did the burmese use maybee a chair ?? or a ladder ??

or did he stay up on the rock ??

[ScotBkk]

Simple. Send the suspects' DNA to England where it can be compared to that on the victims.

Make it easier... get DNA off their families and save the wait .........

[fish fingers]

there needs to be a petition aimed at the British Embassy in BK, rather then the UK government imo

They really drag their feet.. not just this case but many others inc that UK guy found close to death in a police cell in Pattaya

seems to me that they enjoy their thailand perks and state dinners and don't want to rock the boat with their counterparts

[JCCR6]

I wonder how they are going to answer this one?

[fish fingers]

And Sean needs to answer some questions when he gets back from Italy

[heyexile]

I would advocate that the FCO issue a travel warning about visiting Koh Tao because of the dangers of running foul of the thousands of Myanmar migrant workers situated there. In FCO's opinion, it would not be feasible for the island's Thai governance to guarantee safety.

That would be pay-back time...

Try this for warnings about all Thai islands:

http://gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand

[Artisi]

The only way to solve the "stand-off" between "they are guilty" and "no they're not" is for independent qualified 3rd party analysis of all the DNA obtained and the collection of DNA from all those who have refused to allow DNA sampling (I assume from what has been said previously - that some people have refused). Only then will the real fact be known - however I would think this is very unlikely for a number of reason -- that I leave for you to answer.

Totally agree... Big questions to be asked... How is it that these migrant workers had escaped being tested for DNA for almost 3 weeks?... it's a very small island... if guilty, why didn't they run?... seems convenient that they suddenly found them now.... why was the head man's son ever a prime suspect if he wasn't even on the island as he was apparently in Bangkok....and have they ever tested his DNA?... sounds fishy to me.

Like many others, I don't know what the true story is and will probably never know, but at the moment it certainly has a bad feeling and an even worse smell about the whole episode.

[kcirtapyelrah]

we will never know the truth !

RIP Hannah and David

Yes, that's right, but it only applies if we give up. I can't imagine the victims families giving up on knowing the truth, where there's a will there's a way, time will reveal all. I think eventually this will come back and bite them on the arse, that's not wishful thinking, I believe it's inevitable.

[stephen terry]

Check out this link, and make a decision for yourself.

http://mikeestravels.com/2014/09/25/the-dark-side-of-thailands-island-paradise/

Yes, it is worth reading this. It clarifies what is more than likely to have happened to the murder victims than what has been portrayed by the RTP.

[stephen terry]

I would advocate that the FCO issue a travel warning about visiting Koh Tao because of the dangers of running foul of the thousands of Myanmar migrant workers situated there. In FCO's opinion, it would not be feasible for the island's Thai governance to guarantee safety.

That would be pay-back time...

Try this for warnings about all Thai islands:

http://gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand

Yes, there is a travel alert about these murders but not specifically relating to avoiding Koh Tao. On reflection I wonder how many backpackers would take heed of it anyway? It wouldn't happen to us, syndrome?

[Artisi]

I would advocate that the FCO issue a travel warning about visiting Koh Tao because of the dangers of running foul of the thousands of Myanmar migrant workers situated there. In FCO's opinion, it would not be feasible for the island's Thai governance to guarantee safety.

That would be pay-back time...

Try this for warnings about all Thai islands:

http://gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand

Looks like a bit of "pussy-footing" around the overall problem, especially along some area's of the border and now some of the islands. About time all western governments grew some b_lls and said what they really mean instead of dancing on tip-toes around in circles, especially a very clear mention of the non-action / lack of protection or interest of foreigners by the authorities and the on-going scams.

Just to clarify, I have lived in Thailand for about 14 years and feel relative safe in the areas I frequent - but have my own list of no-go areas.

[slipperx]

If the British have the crime scene DNA then take the 3 guys DNA. DO they match? Yes, of course they do. Now where do you think a switch was made? The police would have to have gotten the DNA from the 3 guys a long time ago to do a switch but that is difficult to do since the British have the bodies and have done their own DNA. The British will report yes they are the criminal or hey wait a second.

You can also take parent DNA to verify you have the childs DNA but that does not seem necessary. This whole scenario is way too complicated for anyone to fabricate.

It is super easy if there is any sense of justice, political will, integrity or even a willingness to prove transparency to remove any taint of injustice in this case. The British have the DNA from poor Hannah and David so they just send one police forensic guy over to test the three accused. Publish the tests and you have clarity. Unfortunately I don't think Thailand or Britain have any integrity any more and justice is also in short supply especially in Thailand.

It's not going to happen because somehow the answers may very well be quite damning on all involved. I'd wager a bet on a set up.

[smokie36]

I wonder how they are going to answer this one?

This post nails it.

[penwithcris]

I'm sure that if I had committed this dreadful murder I'd have disappeared pronto not hang around to be DNA tested just as the Latvian who appears to have murdered the young British girl has done. He's gone to ground.

The arrested Burmese seem little more than weak and naive children

Guess it will all come out in the wash. Hope justice is eventually done and seen to be done

[Seducedbytheseas]

Regardless if the Thai authorities are claiming that the alleged murder's DNA matches, there will be a secondary test and complete autopsy done by the British authorities. This important confirmation will clear-up any misconceptions relating to the questionable "patsy theory".

And this info you got from exactly where?

I thought I read that there was going to be, or has been, a formal inquisition and Interpol DVI protocol proceedure done on the victims. Besides, don't you think the families will proceed with an independant investigation and or DNA inquiry? Dont be such a tool!

Where did you read that - the Beano? Do you have the link handy?

Maybe you should read what Interpol's role is.

They ain't the world's police force and Hollywood ain't reality.

I can't remember where I read that there was to be a formal investigation by British authorities- I have been reading various articles from time-to-time, and too busy to pay too much attention. Besides, it is just my opinion, and that any tampering of evidence will appear with a proper investigation and an autopsy in a competent environment on current equipment. I am not one to jump to conclusions, but I don't think this is over yet, and there certainly would be tremendous fallout if Thailand's investigation were found to be falsified. I for one will pack it up and leave if proof of tampering is evident. I am not a Thai-basher, but I am quite honestly disenchanted by all of the corruption and murders, especially the ones that happened in my backyard and local beach last week.

[EASYDOGG]

Someone with clout and money has to represent these men.

And be someone who doesn't fear about their life or being bumped off by 'someone' for representing them.

[EASYDOGG]

laugh if 2 innocent people get punished?

yea its a big <deleted> laugh

like to see you laughing if you were one of them

I will laugh so hard if its a set up. I hope it isn't.

You lot are jumping the gun. If it is proved to be a set up, then these patsies will be free men. My understanding is, that the OP would laugh at the moment the Thais would be proved to have lied and have more egg on their face.

As it is, I can't see nothing coming of this. These guys have been nailed. END OF

[Beetlejuice]

Check out this link, and make a decision for yourself.

http://mikeestravels.com/2014/09/25/the-dark-side-of-thailands-island-paradise/

Interesting article. If it can be believed, than it is saying the Island is an extremely lawless and dangerous area populated by all kinds of undesirables.

But, this is something I would not have been aware of and doubt the majority of travellers that visit there for the first time would have been aware of these aleged facts either, because none of this for obvious reasons has been or is mentioned in the travel brochures that portray the Island as a paradise location. It is only due to the said tragic events that have brought these details to light.

I am hoping that these murders and the worldwide attention this has received will encourage the authorities to purge that Island of all it`s undesirable elements, but somehow I doubt it, because Joe Public has a very short memory and once this case falls out of the media attention, so will the memories of this case and business will just continue as normal.

The only sure ways to put the gangs that run that Island out of business is if the tourists avoid that location, but my guess is this will not happen.

[Alwyn]

Regardless if the Thai authorities are claiming that the alleged murder's DNA matches, there will be a secondary test and complete autopsy done by the British authorities. This important confirmation will clear-up any misconceptions relating to the questionable "patsy theory".

And this info you got from exactly where?

I thought I read that there was going to be, or has been, a formal inquisition and Interpol DVI protocol proceedure done on the victims. Besides, don't you think the families will proceed with an independant investigation and or DNA inquiry? Dont be such a tool!

wow... are you serious? Do you think Thailand will allow anything like that? Do you think they will risk being shown up as not only incompetent but corrupt too. Do you think the families of the two murdered kids have any rights to ask anything from Thailand? Just how long have you been here?

[Soutpeel]

I can't remember where I read that there was to be a formal investigation by British authorities-

No you didn't, British authorities will not investigate anything....there may be an inquest to confirm the cause of death of both British citizens, which is already know - Murder

the "investigation" is a formality in these circumstances, the cause of death is not in question

[Alwyn]

What is the British foriegn affairs doing about it ?

exactly what we'd expect them to do. Nothing (in public anyway)

[transam]

If the arrests are totally above board the BiB should invite the English to LOS to do their own DNA tests to clear the air.

That is the only way for closure and if nothing to hide then nooooooooo problem...

[JoeLing]

So many calls for an 'Independent investigation' involving an outside agency - obviously a good idea. But when did Thailand ever back off and admit to inadequacy or incompetence ? Get real - they never bring in 'outsiders' .

Get real? What about 2001?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1952815.stm

A pair of detectives from Dyfed-Powys Police had been brought in to assist Royal Thai Police's floundering hunt, re-launching the inquiry for their man in September 2001.

They flew to the murder scene and later returned DNA evidence from the sarong used to strangle Ms Jones, and from other items in her £10-a-night Aree guesthouse room, for analysis in the UK.

In the initial investigations into her death Thai police arrested the hostel owner Andrew Gill, 33, after releasing a number of other suspects.

He had always vehemently denied any involvement in the death of the Liverpool University media and English graduate and was subsequently released without charge.

Their handling of the case has been strongly criticised by Ms Jones' parents Sue and Glyn, still angry no-one has been brought to justice.

[stephen terry]

The problems with a cover-up is that by its very nature it is imperfect. Anything used in its construction could be challenged, e.g. Hannah's phone spirited from the police desk to the bushes around the Myanmar's lodgings. That needs explaining, which, by its imperfection, will bring in another challenge.

How do they explain the wounds on David's body, which are more likely caused by a knuckle-knife, than a hoe or blunt instrument? How do they explain two Burmese boys half the size of David, overpowering him, and without Hannah screaming? How do they explain a confession when neither of the two accused could hardly speak a word of Thai? How do they explain the re-enactment scene when neither of the accused knew where to go?

But the biggie are the two accused. How do they cover this before a Burmese official visits them? Only one answer; they will be meeting Buddha before they expected.

Is this justice?

[Dee Kwa]

I am a foreigner, I have lived n Thailand for six years now. I think am I moving away from this country of fake smiles and xenophobia. Spend my descent salary in some other country where I can feel safer as a farang then in Thailand.

Goodbye...