Rights group arranges lawyers for Myanmar men

[JohnThailandJohn]

To JohnThailandJohn,

I think there are more than half a dozen threads here on TV alone, numerous newspaper articles, the chronology of events, just to name a few....that answer your question.

Have you ever been to Kho Tao?

Do you know anyone who lives there?

Are you following the Thai media on this?

Are you aware of all the inaccuracy relating to the Myanmar men?

(where police quoted that Win told the police he saw the D&H having sex, so he made the attack with a plan to rape the woman)

It just seems that you simply believe everything the police says unconditionally - I don't really know why?

It would not be the first time that police have covered up a foreigner's death - Kanchanaburi comes to mind......among many other cases where I don't believe families would have gotten closure. You are aware of these other cases as well?

The DNA matches. Their lawyers can again take swabs from them and have it compared to the DNA results of the semen originally collected at the scene and also shared with Singapore.

Nothing else you mention is related to this fact that is nearly impossible to overcome. Yes everyone knows there are many corrupt Thai police but the DNA matches and can be rechecked by their lawyers. I just find it hard to believe police would not have considered this.

Edited October 5, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[AGareth2]

after seeing the lawyers they don't retract their confession?

what then?

[Chutney]

The UK Daily has been blacked out for raising points the Thai authority cannot contradict in regards to the Koh Tao murders. Welcome to North Korea.

Have a link? I can read on vpn. If I google UK daily I just get the daily mail, that was blocked by Thailand months ago for comments about the monarchy.

It's probably the Mirror. They've been very hot on reporting this.

[brizzle]

I believe timid entirely possible that these are the ones who committed the crime , but still think its a good thing for this group to provide lawyers to these 3...

If torture and abuse ... It should come out and those responsive punished...

Although if the DNA tests are accurate and these 3 did it... Hope they also are punished...

Let's see how this all turns out...

What would be nice to see more of ... reasonable and rational posts based on reality and not speculations and wishes based on emotion.

What does this say about your ''rational'' posts based on ''reality'' John?? We do not have to speculate about your emotional wishes do we now????

I have absolutely no emotional feelings toward this case except disgust at the crime. I don't know anyone involved and could care less if the DNA came back as a Thai, Foreigner of any race, rich or poor.

The only thing close to emotion I have now is simply a desire to point out to some people it is time to accept they were almost surely wrong in their suspicions (I think we almost were) and that they got the right guys responsible for this crime despite any mistakes or other BS that got it to the police to this point of locating those whose DNA matched that at the crime scene.

I just think that in the coming days some folks are going to be very embarrassed at how they have kicked conspiracy theories and angst against the rich son into over drive now that the have found the two whose DNA matches.

You see John where you are completely out of touch with normal human feeling is that most people do not accept in your words that they ''were almost surely wrong'' in their suspicions. You need to wake up and smell the corrupt Thai coffee John...you really do.

Please believe me nobody in the coming days will be embarrassed about questioning the evidence of what probably is the most corrupt police force in the world.

We all want the same result...punish those responsible and if the Thai police have finally come good then great .......but some of us do not blindly accept the word of corruption that is endemic within. A minority of others do however....and that beggars belief ...it really does.. If you are right then I am happy ,after all we have got the bad guys who are beyond contempt, but I will make no apology for questioning what is probably, and I will say it again, the most corrupt police force in the world.

[intune53]

johnthailandjohn, i ask you again, when his father offered one million baht, not to the public, but to the thai police to prove his sons guilt or innocence, how come he didn't know that his son was at university in bangkok. i always knew when my son was some 600 kilometres away from home. And please don't give me any crap about maybe he didn't know where he was, because i'm pretty sure as soon as the allegations were made against his son, the first thing he would have done is called him. And if you are certain we should believe all the people who "saw him at university" then why shouldn't we believe the people who said he left the island on the first boat the morning after the murders. And you still haven't provided any link to the so called cctv evidence showing him at university, could this be because it has not been made public, and you are only basing your comments on what you have read

hear hear!

And to respond to your earlier post to me Johnthailandjohn:-(was not able to post the direct reply including all the quotes)

primarily all the inconsistencies i outlined in my post just now lead me to question the powerful in relation to this crime.

additionally I have read that the timestamped video evidence given to police as alibi for the son was a printed out screenshot of the supposed video-if so-this is not technically incontrovertible evidence. `it could have been tampered with. this is why i asked you to direct me to the supposed incontrovertible video of the son ..and you haven't....

I have no vested interest in some sort of class war. i just want real justice for those who have been murdered and violated.

How can you not consider the possibility that very large amounts of money can hide the guilt of pretty much anyone so long as people value money over justice. there are examples of this not just in thailand but all over the world.

you say "for no reason"......!!

There are many reasons which are what motivate those of us who are questioning the "received wisdom" of media and authority to continue to do so, in a bid to arrive at a truthful resolve.

This is what critical thinking is-to question the sources of information rather than swallowing them whole without question. Is this what you do???????????? Think about it.

Edited October 5, 2014 by intune53

[englishoak]

after seeing the lawyers they don't retract their confession?

what then?

Then its case closed.

[metisdead]

A post containing an oversized image has been removed as it was likely to mess up the formatting of the page on different browsers.

[RoastBeef]

Dodgy looking date stamp

[brizzle]

To JohnThailandJohn,

I think there are more than half a dozen threads here on TV alone, numerous newspaper articles, the chronology of events, just to name a few....that answer your question.

Have you ever been to Kho Tao?

Do you know anyone who lives there?

Are you following the Thai media on this?

Are you aware of all the inaccuracy relating to the Myanmar men?

(where police quoted that Win told the police he saw the D&H having sex, so he made the attack with a plan to rape the woman)

It just seems that you simply believe everything the police says unconditionally - I don't really know why?

It would not be the first time that police have covered up a foreigner's death - Kanchanaburi comes to mind......among many other cases where I don't believe families would have gotten closure. You are aware of these other cases as well?

The DNA matches. Their lawyers can again take swabs from them and have it compared to the DNA results of the semen originally collected at the scene and also shared with Singapore.

Nothing else you mention is related to this fact that is nearly impossible to overcome. Yes everyone knows there are many corrupt Thai police but the DNA matches and can be rechecked by their lawyers. I just find it hard to believe police would not have considered this.

But this is the Thai police John... not the Somalia police , or the outer Mongolian Police or even the Man in the Moon police. Would you like to think things over and reconsider??

[ttthailand]

johnthailandjohn, i ask you again, when his father offered one million baht, not to the public, but to the thai police to prove his sons guilt or innocence, how come he didn't know that his son was at university in bangkok. i always knew when my son was some 600 kilometres away from home. And please don't give me any crap about maybe he didn't know where he was, because i'm pretty sure as soon as the allegations were made against his son, the first thing he would have done is called him. And if you are certain we should believe all the people who "saw him at university" then why shouldn't we believe the people who said he left the island on the first boat the morning after the murders. And you still haven't provided any link to the so called cctv evidence showing him at university, could this be because it has not been made public, and you are only basing your comments on what you have read

All of this needs to be considered.

But what I want to know is where are these people who are saying all this and saw everything; the lady who cleaned the blood from Sean's face, the people who saw the head man's son in Bkk and all the other people who Mon and the family say saw things.... Where are they ??? Why did they not come forward ?

Edited October 5, 2014 by ttthailand

[balo]

Its good that they can have lawyers, but that doesnt change many things .

Why ? The DNA match and all the lawyers can do is to confirm the facts and make sure that the Myanmar suspects will get a fair trial in Thailand.

[monk213]

Great news, very glad to see that there is a strong movement from social media and the great Andy Hall. Even if this only creates enough waves to shake up the corruption on the islands of Thailand that will be something, these corrupt police and criminal families have to be put in their place at the very least. Sign the petition and lets get this rolling properly people

[intune53]

Dodgy looking date stamp

Even if the timestamp is authentic, a speedboat organised immediately from koh tao could most likely get to koh samui in time to board the 0615 flight to bangkok which gets in at 0745am. Or perhaps even the 0600 service which gets into bangkok at 0705.

So perhaps its authenticity does not have so much weight considering this.?

[ttthailand]

Every misleading statement was made for a reason. What were the reasons ? Every statement made by every person needs to be confirmed even if these Burmese guys did rape and murder. The justice system can not just let people lie to the police and make up stories. Every lie is a crime ! There are reasons why people lie.....

[intune53]

10,310 people have signed this petition so far.

Please share and sign!!!!

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

[oldsailor35]

It is just too simple .... Get New independent DNA tests for the Burmese guy to confirm a match. If no match get DNA from family members.

KISS

Can the RTP refuse to allow the lawyers of the accused to collect DNA from them.

[intune53]

Dodgy looking date stamp

Even if the timestamp is authentic, a speedboat organised immediately from koh tao could most likely get to koh samui in time to board the 0615 flight to bangkok which gets in at 0745am. Or perhaps even the 0600 service which gets into bangkok at 0705.

So perhaps its authenticity does not have so much weight considering this.?

does anyone know how long it takes for a speedboat to travel between koh tao and koh samui?

[phuketandsee]

This sums it up perfectly for me: We were over there." No, you were over there!"

Edited October 5, 2014 by phuketandsee

[elektrified]

Come on everyone on TV .. if you want to be sure about this then we need 10,000 sigs to move on it to petition the British Embassy and British government for another independent investigation, all people want is real justice and closure for David and Hannahs families, that means 100% without doubt .... get enough voices and the UK gov will have to open an investigation if they havnt already behind closed doors.

We can make a difference for once, all it takes are for good people to do something....

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller#share

Please Moderators im asking you on behalf of many do the right thing and let this link stay.

Don't know if it's only me but I've tried 5 or 6 times over the last 2 days to sign that petition and every time get the following error:

"Something went wrong loading that content. We're looking into it — please try again later."

[intune53]

Come on everyone on TV .. if you want to be sure about this then we need 10,000 sigs to move on it to petition the British Embassy and British government for another independent investigation, all people want is real justice and closure for David and Hannahs families, that means 100% without doubt .... get enough voices and the UK gov will have to open an investigation if they havnt already behind closed doors.

We can make a difference for once, all it takes are for good people to do something....

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller#share

Please Moderators im asking you on behalf of many do the right thing and let this link stay.

Don't know if it's only me but I've tried 5 or 6 times over the last 2 days to sign that petition and every time get the following error:

"Something went wrong loading that content. We're looking into it — please try again later."

It's working for me and the 10, 420 people who have signed it so far. It did produce that message to me one time when i was checking on how numbers are progressing.after several refreshes it worked again.There is alot of traffic to it.Keep trying!! Try this link (without the #share at the end)

https://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

[brucec64]

the question is whether the judge believes the evidence

Do you truly beleive that the judiciary is a completely independent, incorruptible entity?

[ChiangMaiThai]

Good news, everyone should have legal counsel when jailed guilty or not. However, this will not help those who cannot accept the overwhelming evidence against these two or those who want to believe it was the rich Thai kid (for no other reason than he is rich and Thai) that did it who was taking an exam at school in Bangkok and appeared on security cameras that day in Bangkok.

No doubt the lawyers will be able to collect new DNA samples from their clients and have it compared against the DNA results from the semen taken from the scene originally and sent to both Thai and Singapore labs. But again, doubt this will convince some of admitting their original suspicions were wrong.

While police may have done things wrong, there is no plausible way they could fake the DNA and expect to get away with it unless these two accused disappear from the planet and nobody can ever check their or their family's DNA ever again.

What exactly is the "overwhelming evidence" you keep referring to? I think most people have very little faith in anything the BIB say especially after their lamentable performance in this case and we only know what they say about the DNA.They seem to be mostly relying on the "confessions" which are not evidence.

Again based on what is being reported ...

There friend who was with them right up until the crime will be a witness against them.

Witnesses have put them around the scene at the time of the incident as well as video.

They didn't come forward despite weeks of the publicly stating they were looking for those singing/playing guitar and in at least one of the videos.

A phone of one of the victims was found at their place. (not the phone Facebook forensics keep showing that was collected and displayed by police in the first days of the investigation)

They confessed

They reenacted in front of hundreds of people.

And the big kicker -- their DNA matches the semen on the victim.

And to add ...

The Semen DNA collected well before these two identities were known was also sent to Singapore. So, at least two labs have typed the DNA. Now we have two suspects who match that DNA. Two suspects unless who disappear from the face of the earth (along with their family) will be able to be checked again by their lawyers, NGO and others who want to prove their innocence down the road. (something the police know)

Dear John. Dear oh Dear.

They worked at the bar the victims were at before being killed. They are Burmese migrants. They did not hide or flee.

The first thing the 'police' did was blanket DNA test Burmese migrants, especially those working in the immediate area. No DNA matches were found. Does that not bother you a little? Now suddenly there is a match and we're supposed to accept it?

Certain special people were exempted from giving DNA tests. Does that not bother you a little?

The fresh wound on Sean's arm exactly matches the wounds on David's body. Sean claims to have been threatened with death by the friendly locals. Does that not bother you at all?

There are credible reports of torture to produce the confession. Does that not bother you a little?

The Koh Tao 'police' and the families that control the land are without any doubt whatsoever, horribly, horribly corrupt. Why do you so readily accept the information they feed you?

No prominent Koh Tao families to my knowledge, volunteered their DNA to exonerate any family connections. Does that not bother you at all?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Good news, everyone should have legal counsel when jailed guilty or not. However, this will not help those who cannot accept the overwhelming evidence against these two or those who want to believe it was the rich Thai kid (for no other reason than he is rich and Thai) that did it who was taking an exam at school in Bangkok and appeared on security cameras that day in Bangkok.

No doubt the lawyers will be able to collect new DNA samples from their clients and have it compared against the DNA results from the semen taken from the scene originally and sent to both Thai and Singapore labs. But again, doubt this will convince some of admitting their original suspicions were wrong.

While police may have done things wrong, there is no plausible way they could fake the DNA and expect to get away with it unless these two accused disappear from the planet and nobody can ever check their or their family's DNA ever again.

What exactly is the "overwhelming evidence" you keep referring to? I think most people have very little faith in anything the BIB say especially after their lamentable performance in this case and we only know what they say about the DNA.They seem to be mostly relying on the "confessions" which are not evidence.

Again based on what is being reported ...

There friend who was with them right up until the crime will be a witness against them.

Witnesses have put them around the scene at the time of the incident as well as video.

They didn't come forward despite weeks of the publicly stating they were looking for those singing/playing guitar and in at least one of the videos.

A phone of one of the victims was found at their place. (not the phone Facebook forensics keep showing that was collected and displayed by police in the first days of the investigation)

They confessed

They reenacted in front of hundreds of people.

And the big kicker -- their DNA matches the semen on the victim.

And to add ...

The Semen DNA collected well before these two identities were known was also sent to Singapore. So, at least two labs have typed the DNA. Now we have two suspects who match that DNA. Two suspects unless who disappear from the face of the earth (along with their family) will be able to be checked again by their lawyers, NGO and others who want to prove their innocence down the road. (something the police know)

Dear John. Dear oh Dear.

They worked at the bar the victims were at before being killed. They are Burmese migrants. They did not hide or flee.

The first thing the 'police' did was blanket DNA test Burmese migrants, especially those working in the immediate area. No DNA matches were found. Does that not bother you a little? Now suddenly there is a match and we're supposed to accept it?

Certain special people were exempted from giving DNA tests. Does that not bother you a little?

The fresh wound on Sean's arm exactly matches the wounds on David's body. Sean claims to have been threatened with death by the friendly locals. Does that not bother you at all?

There are credible reports of torture to produce the confession. Does that not bother you a little?

The Koh Tao 'police' and the families that control the land are without any doubt whatsoever, horribly, horribly corrupt. Why do you so readily accept the information they feed you?

No prominent Koh Tao families to my knowledge, volunteered their DNA to exonerate any family connections. Does that not bother you at all?

not going to go over the fact just about everything you said is incorrect and the rest is speculation of people on the internet

[Chutney]

There is to be an inquest 5 January in UK. I'm no lawyer but perhaps there might be some process which allows verification of evidence at that point. As far as I know David Millers funeral has already taken place. Perhaps the families agreed to further samples being taken before burials. If so there would be a chance at that point to obtain DNA from these Burmese boys to check results. The integrity of any testing and samples taken by the Thai police cannot be trusted at all obviously.

[jpeg]

My first post after viewing this forum for many months.. Here goes! My wife and I are attending her uncles funeral for last couple of days. Last night we were chatting ( well she was translating ) to one of her cousins, whom is a policeman in Bangkok, about the murders and I was expressing my frustration and doubt about the way this investigation has progressed. He straight up said the murderers were not these Burmese but were relatives of local mafia ( his words ). He also said way too much money has been paid to the head police, government whatever. I like many on this forum wish for independent DNA tests to be carried out on theses accused. If it doesn't match then get samples from local mafia family etc etc. Maybe theses men did it? I don't think the truth will prevail but I hope so! No I am not a troll to all you wan.ers who jump on newbies here.... Anyways thought I'd share what police cousin said!

I don't believe this very high profile case was a case of only 'too much money' having been paid. Who is the family connected to? Must be someone pretty high up in Surat Thani Province ...

[Pormax]

Like everyone I am hoping that the real killers have been caught but like the majority of Thai expats who know how the RTP work I too have my doubts. The police had aready showed how inept they were by accusing the couple's friend without any evidence to back this up.

What would be interesting is to have another post from the husband of the lady who has family on the island. The last time she stated that after phoning her family on the island she was told that 'everyone who lives on the island knew who were the killers but were afraid to say anything for fear of reprisals'. This suggests that someone who is connected in some way to the 'Mafia' on the island or someone high up in authority, is involved not migrant workers.

Good to hear that the Burmese men are going to get legal counsel because they would not get anywhere if left to the Thai judicial system alone and then we would all still be having doubts. One hopes that the DNA tests will confirm the guilt of these men and then the case can be closed. This I am sure will help, a little, the families of those killed. While there are doubts rumours, and conspiracy theories running around this can only make more grief to the families. They have gone through enough already, closure for them cannot come soon enough.

[yougivemebaby]

okay I'll be the first to say it. In respect for David and Hannah's family.

I can't believe how much people are claiming these Burmese are innocent with all the evidence piled up against them. People's logic? They are too small, don't look like a rapist or cold blooded murderers?!?!

The biggest mistake the police made was following half drunken or inebriated claims of people with NO forensics background. once the police (probably with help) followed their cigarette lead, they found the culprits quickly! 99.9% of every single rumor online was JUST that. Zero evidence backing it up. No actual smoking gun. Shocking people with crime scene photos doesn't prove anything. Showing people a phone that may have been turned into police after the murders prove nothing. Where is the smoking gun? A police report.? How do you know that wasn't the officers phone?

The Burmese ran off after the police

Spotted them on the beach? Why? They were scared to be deported ? The police know almost all Burmese workers are illegal. Why would the pick out just one innocent group ?

They were tortured with boiling water ?? Where is the smoking gun?? JUST another rumor. I didn't see any Burmese with burn marks. How did they know they were tortured ? Did they call and tell them? I doubt it.

[JLCrab]

From Post #3 above: that means 100% without doubt ....

The following is from ThaiLawForum.com on the Thai Legal System written by a Chief Provincial Court Judge:

The Judge in the case shall weigh all the evidence presented to him, until he is fully satisfied that an offence has actually been perpetrated and that the accused has committed that offence. Where any reasonable doubt exists as to whether or not the accused has committed the offence, the benefit of doubt shall be given to him. In other words, if the Judge considers all the evidence submitted by the prosecutor and is uncertain that the accused has committed the offence, regardless of whether the accused pleads guilty or not, he will dismiss the charge.

Also, in other words if there is no reasonable doubt, the accused will be found guilty; it does not require 100% proof of guilt.

http://www.thailawforum.com/articles/sentencingsuparp.html

[metisdead]

Posts in which the quoted content had been translated into French language have been removed, this is an English language forum.

16) You will not make changes to quoted material from other members posts, except for purposes of shortening the quoted post. This cannot be done in such a manner that it alters the context of the original post.

[Pattaya46]

This sums it up perfectly for me: We were over there." No, you were over there!"

British-Tourists-Re-enactment-001.jpg

Without the words, a picture can say anything you want YOU to say...

It's one of big Internet games. It's just pure speculation.