Motorbike Riding In Sea -- Pros And Cons?

[meowchawpnom]

After six years in SEA, I'm finally forced to think about getting a motorbike, as it's becoming too difficult to be without cheap and immediately available transportation.

I've always been scared to death of the things, have never ridden one, but have ridden twice on one as a passenger (insisting that the driver go SLOW)

I've always been a very good, careful car driver and a good bicycle driver. If I rode a motorbike I would always go relatively slowly. Are accidents inevitable eventually, regardless of how careful you are?

There are several issues here. One of the things that makes it difficult for farangs to ride motos in SEA, IMO, is that we like to wear shorts and polo shirts, so our skin has no protection if we crash and skid across the road. Wearing protective clothing is supposed to be important. Thais can do this, because they don't get as hot as we do. But I could never wear long pants and long sleeve shirt on a regular basis.

Oh, and I hate the idea of wearing a helmet because it would ruin my hair!

Then there is the question: are motorerscooters safer than motorbikes? What are the pros and cons? I am guessing that scooters can't go as fast, which is no problem, cause they go fast enough for me. Do they get better gas mileage? Are they statistically less likely to crash? I notice that motorscooter wheels, in addition to being smaller, are also a lot wider. Does that make them more stable and less likely to tip over?

I wonder why people don't ride Motortrikes? With a small modification, you can make a motorbike into a 3-wheeler. Wouldn't that be a hel_l of a lot safer?

Most of the time, the only people I see riding motortrikes are crippled or paralyzed people. That doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't everybody ride them? In addition to the much greater stability, they would allow drivers to be more polite to pedestrians. I think one of the reasons motorcyclists don't like to stop or slow down for pedestrians trying to cross the street is that when they slow down it becomes harder to balance their bikes.

I guess a motortrike would get a little less mileage out of a liter of petrol, but probably not a lot less (correct me if I'm wrong).

Finally, is it easy to hitch a small lightweight trailer to a motorbike or scooter, so one could haul some baggage when necessary?

Thanks for your insights.

[sbk]

And here I thought you were talking about riding it in the ocean!

Anyway, this is more a topic for the motors forum. All your motorheads hang out there

[meowchawpnom]

And here I thought you were talking about riding it in the ocean!

Anyway, this is more a topic for the motors forum. All your motorheads hang out there

Oh. Didn't know there was a motor forum. Should I just re-post this there?

[meowchawpnom]

And here I thought you were talking about riding it in the ocean!

Anyway, this is more a topic for the motors forum. All your motorheads hang out there

Oh. Didn't know there was a motor forum. Should I just re-post this there?

Okay, I see someone has already re-posted this here for me. Thanks! Now let's discuss.

[Gary A]

Personally I think anyone who rides a scooter or motorcycle has a death wish. I had a Kawasaki Boss and after a couple of close calls I decided I didn't want my remains hauled to the hospital in the back of a pickup truck.

As far as a scooter vs a motorcycle the smaller the wheels the less stable it is. Scooters are more dangerous whether they go fast or slow. I do agree that a three wheeler is safer because you won't fall down as easily and get run over.

[Moonfruit]

Ive ridden a motorbike here for the last 4 years, with a few close calls, but you have close calls everywhere in the world. I have both a Honda wave, and a 'big' bike.

Riding here is by far the most dangerous place i have ever ridden, thats including many a mile under my belt in Cambodia and other such places.

Bangkok is one of the safer places to be in my opinion. If you have an accident in Bangkok you are generally moving at a much slower speed. The most dangerous road i have ever seen is the Patchakasem Road down the peninsular. Over the last few years i have seen probably half a dozen fatal accidents involving motorcycles, usually around the u-turns.

If you have never ridden a motorcycle, then i really wouldnt recommend starting out here in Thailand. Good motorcycle riding is all about being aware of your surroundings, and the road conditions. This comes with confidence.

[Thaipwriter]

Over the last few years i have seen probably half a dozen fatal accidents involving motorcycles, usually around the u-turns.

I saw three different dead motorcyclists in the space of three weeks on the stretch of road that runs past Don Muang airport in Bangkok.

RIP

The OP's preferrence to hairstyle over safety could be disasterous i think

[calibanjr.]

You can't beat a scooter in Chiang Mai, if you need to do a lot of short errands and such. If you only need to get from here to there every now and then, sang thaews are cheap and ubiquitous, tuk tuks a little more pricey.

BKK not my cup of tea for riding a bike, and I'm pretty adventurous.

[PeaceBlondie]

Original poster, you're making a distinction between motor scooters and motorbikes which hardly applies in Thailand. 90% of the bikes are between 100 and 135 cc, step throughs, fairly high wheels, usually wire wheels.

You'll find comments in this Motor forum of guys who've ridden in Thailand for dozens of years without so much as falling off. I guess I believe them; I just don't want to, because while I've never really had a serious fall in my home country (Texas), I have fallen several times in developing countries, including Thailand, and seriously. So I don't recommend riding in SEAsia to anybody who's not ridden much before.

Helmet: legally. the law is barely enforced. But if you like your hairstyle (mine is great), remember that the price you pay for a helmet tells how much you think your brains are worth. And if your head splits open, your hairdo will be very messy. I've scratched my full face helmets in places where my brain tissue did not want to make direct contact with solid objects.

[wilko]

After six years in SEA, I'm finally forced to think about getting a motorbike, as it's becoming too difficult to be without cheap and immediately available transportation.

I've always been scared to death of the things, have never ridden one, but have ridden twice on one as a passenger (insisting that the driver go SLOW)

I've always been a very good, careful car driver and a good bicycle driver. If I rode a motorbike I would always go relatively slowly. Are accidents inevitable eventually, regardless of how careful you are?

There are several issues here. One of the things that makes it difficult for farangs to ride motos in SEA, IMO, is that we like to wear shorts and polo shirts, so our skin has no protection if we crash and skid across the road. Wearing protective clothing is supposed to be important. Thais can do this, because they don't get as hot as we do. But I could never wear long pants and long sleeve shirt on a regular basis.

Oh, and I hate the idea of wearing a helmet because it would ruin my hair!

Then there is the question: are motorerscooters safer than motorbikes? What are the pros and cons? I am guessing that scooters can't go as fast, which is no problem, cause they go fast enough for me. Do they get better gas mileage? Are they statistically less likely to crash? I notice that motorscooter wheels, in addition to being smaller, are also a lot wider. Does that make them more stable and less likely to tip over?

I wonder why people don't ride Motortrikes? With a small modification, you can make a motorbike into a 3-wheeler. Wouldn't that be a hel_l of a lot safer?

Most of the time, the only people I see riding motortrikes are crippled or paralyzed people. That doesn't make sense. Why shouldn't everybody ride them? In addition to the much greater stability, they would allow drivers to be more polite to pedestrians. I think one of the reasons motorcyclists don't like to stop or slow down for pedestrians trying to cross the street is that when they slow down it becomes harder to balance their bikes.

I guess a motortrike would get a little less mileage out of a liter of petrol, but probably not a lot less (correct me if I'm wrong).

Finally, is it easy to hitch a small lightweight trailer to a motorbike or scooter, so one could haul some baggage when necessary?

Thanks for your insights.

I'm a bit concerned with the naivety of your questions...I think you need not only experience but a lot of nouse or common sense to go biking in Thailand. (You would be restricted to one country in effect, anyway)

I think anyone who considers riding a bike without a helmet needs their head looking into....and in the end that has an extremely high chance of that happening. If I had walked past you with a lump hammer over my shoulder and had swung round and given you a glancing blow on the head imagine how you would be feeling.

Crash helmets are to protect you from the inevitable glancing blows your head will receive in a bike accident, and even a crash at walking pace can be fatal.

You rightly point out that it is also very tempting not to wear protective clothing here; the result is unnecessary skin/muscle loss. The problem with a bike is its vulnerability...if you feel that you are a good enough driver then go ahead but for heaven’s sake do everything you can to minimise damage to yourself....driving slowly is not necessarily a solution.

It would seem to me you would be a lot better off with a small car or pickup.

[calibanjr.]

Meow,

Where are you planning on riding?. BKK one level, Pattaya/CM another level, the sticks another, oh and Samui, its OWN level.

Edited July 24, 2006 by calibanjr.

[higgy88]

As far as a scooter vs a motorcycle the smaller the wheels the less stable it is. Scooters are more dangerous whether they go fast or slow. I do agree that a three wheeler is safer because you won't fall down as easily and get run over.

I'm sorry Gary but I really do need to take issue with this remark, at least as far as my knowledge of phycis go. As we all know, motorcycles are basically a very unstable vehicle since without some force acting on it it will fall down. While parked, the kickstand does the job. And while moving, it is the centrifical force produced by the rotation of the wheels that keep it from falling down. The faster the rotation of the wheels, the greater the force. All you have to do is watch motorcycles racing around a turn to see this in action. In order to go a specific speed, say 40 kph, bigger wheels will rotate at a slower speed than smaller wheels, and the slower rotation of the bigger wheels will produce less centrifical force than what would be produced by the smaller wheels. So scooters with smaller wheels are more stable at the same speed than a motorcycle with bigger wheels, and you will not fall down as easily on a scooter.

I have been riding motorcycles for a long time and I love them, along with most other kinds of motorized vehicles, and I absolutely do not have a death wish.

To the OP. You are right in that the motocycles and scooters here in Thailand are much cheaper to operate than cars or even taking public transportation, but whether it is the right thing for you to do really depends on where you live and where you want to go with it. The most dangerous things to you riding a bike are the other cars and trucks on the road. If you just want to use it to go to the market and places close to home, and you don't have to go in the middle of a big busy road, then a small scooter may be a good way for you to do it. But you should learn how to ride, always be very careful, always try to protect all the parts of your body as best you can even if it is too hot or it messes up your hair, and always keep it in the front of your mind that anything can happen at any time.

[terdsak_12]

I have an 850cc touring bike I use for a bit of weekend fun, not my main source of transport, and would hate to rely on it to travel around everyday.

Riding in Thailand you should be alert at ALL times, and don't rely on locals having common sense.

Whenever I go out on it, it takes me 5-10 minutes or so to put on some jeans, my special padded biking jacket, gloves, and helmet a that costs more than most mopeds on the road, and insist my missus wears the same.

What I'm after now is a trailer to tow it out of Bangkok so I can enjoy it on the more open roads in the country side.

My new baby!!!!

[Gary A]

Unfortunately roads here in the Kingdom are not flat and smooth. Try hitting a pothole with a scooter versus a motorcycle or driving on soft dirt or sand. The larger wheel diameter is much more stable for the less than ideal road conditions. Have you ever tried to drive a scooter on the beach?

I'm sorry Gary but I really do need to take issue with this remark, at least as far as my knowledge of phycis go. As we all know, motorcycles are basically a very unstable vehicle since without some force acting on it it will fall down. While parked, the kickstand does the job. And while moving, it is the centrifical force produced by the rotation of the wheels that keep it from falling down. The faster the rotation of the wheels, the greater the force. All you have to do is watch motorcycles racing around a turn to see this in action. In order to go a specific speed, say 40 kph, bigger wheels will rotate at a slower speed than smaller wheels, and the slower rotation of the bigger wheels will produce less centrifical force than what would be produced by the smaller wheels. So scooters with smaller wheels are more stable at the same speed than a motorcycle with bigger wheels, and you will not fall down as easily on a scooter.

[moonoi]

As far as a scooter vs a motorcycle the smaller the wheels the less stable it is. Scooters are more dangerous whether they go fast or slow. I do agree that a three wheeler is safer because you won't fall down as easily and get run over.

I'm sorry Gary but I really do need to take issue with this remark, at least as far as my knowledge of phycis go. As we all know, motorcycles are basically a very unstable vehicle since without some force acting on it it will fall down. While parked, the kickstand does the job. And while moving, it is the centrifical force produced by the rotation of the wheels that keep it from falling down. The faster the rotation of the wheels, the greater the force. All you have to do is watch motorcycles racing around a turn to see this in action. In order to go a specific speed, say 40 kph, bigger wheels will rotate at a slower speed than smaller wheels, and the slower rotation of the bigger wheels will produce less centrifical force than what would be produced by the smaller wheels. So scooters with smaller wheels are more stable at the same speed than a motorcycle with bigger wheels, and you will not fall down as easily on a scooter.

I have been riding motorcycles for a long time and I love them, along with most other kinds of motorized vehicles, and I absolutely do not have a death wish.

To the OP. You are right in that the motocycles and scooters here in Thailand are much cheaper to operate than cars or even taking public transportation, but whether it is the right thing for you to do really depends on where you live and where you want to go with it. The most dangerous things to you riding a bike are the other cars and trucks on the road. If you just want to use it to go to the market and places close to home, and you don't have to go in the middle of a big busy road, then a small scooter may be a good way for you to do it. But you should learn how to ride, always be very careful, always try to protect all the parts of your body as best you can even if it is too hot or it messes up your hair, and always keep it in the front of your mind that anything can happen at any time.

Actually Gary A is correct. But its not to do with the size of the wheels but more the rake of the steering. Small bikes with small wheels generally have a steep rake (thats is they are closer to 90 degress from the road) than larger machines....this is what gives them there manuverability (sorry about my spelling!) and makes them more unstable.

[Lormaak]

I'm sorry Gary but I really do need to take issue with this remark, at least as far as my knowledge of phycis go. As we all know, motorcycles are basically a very unstable vehicle since without some force acting on it it will fall down. While parked, the kickstand does the job. And while moving, it is the centrifical force produced by the rotation of the wheels that keep it from falling down. The faster the rotation of the wheels, the greater the force. All you have to do is watch motorcycles racing around a turn to see this in action. In order to go a specific speed, say 40 kph, bigger wheels will rotate at a slower speed than smaller wheels, and the slower rotation of the bigger wheels will produce less centrifical force than what would be produced by the smaller wheels. So scooters with smaller wheels are more stable at the same speed than a motorcycle with bigger wheels, and you will not fall down as easily on a scooter.

A spinning bike wheel has stability partly due to the conservation of angular momentum. This is a function of mass, linear velocity, and radial distance. A large bike wheel has a larger mass and a larger radius than a small scooter wheel, so has more angular momentum for a set road speed, and is thus more stable.

So it's true that big wheels are more stable, as are heavy wheels.

As for riding a bike anywhere, be bloody careful, particularly around junctions. Also, I recommend you read The Hurt Report. It's old, but still true.

Summary of The Hurt Report

[PeaceBlondie]

I ain't no physics teacher (but I know a poster who is) or no meckanical engineer, but I read that bigger diameter wheels have far greater gyroscopic action. What's that mean?

It's also a matter of design. Scooters with small wheels are usually factory-designed by engineers to do virtually nothing except to get you from point A to point B, slowly and dangerously. The Yamaha TDM850 pictured above is engineered to do far more, even though its center of gravity is relatively high.

[gharknes]

A big bike is more stable at slow speeds, I have both small and big and can drive and balance my big bike at much slower speeds than the little one

Big bikes are less stable on loose surfaces than little bikes mostly because they are heavier, off road machines are specifically designed for that purpose including tyres so they are better on loose surface big or small.

[kayo]

I was curious about how to ride a motorcycle in the ocean.

Oops.

[PeaceBlondie]

I was curious about how to ride a motorcycle in the ocean.

Oops.

It's easy. First, you walk on water......

[Nikkijah]

I've been toying with the idea of getting a bike, I have experience riding motorbikes, I'm confident, I have good road sense, I don't drive like I'm posessed BUT...

On my way home from buying a boat today(nice & safe in comparison) I saw the after-math of a motorbike accident - this guy was wrapped around his bike just under the back end of a 10 wheeled truck - completely buckled up and 100% dead! - the guy, not the truck, the truck was unharmed

It was clear he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time and he got 'sandwiched' between a fast moving car from behind and, unfortunately, a big open-backed truck with lots of nasty sharp bits hanging off the back

This made my lady cry and made my eyes well up, we thought about his family - his little girl/boy, his wife or brothers and sisters, his mum & dad, we thought about them all, it was just our morbid curiosity that made us look, as we were heading towards it we kept saying to each other 'don't look' but we couldn't help it

I have a lovely little son, he's 16 months old, is funny, beautiful, noisy. I have a Mum & Dad whom I love very much, and obviously my lady too my point is, I wouldn't want to leave them all because of some miscalculation from the driver behind combined with the unsuspecting driver in front.

No thanks, life is great and short and it is very easy to die, why enhance your prospects??

[mraitchison]

There are several issues here. One of the things that makes it difficult for farangs to ride motos in SEA, IMO, is that we like to wear shorts and polo shirts, so our skin has no protection if we crash and skid across the road. Wearing protective clothing is supposed to be important. Thais can do this, because they don't get as hot as we do.

Ha hah ha ha ha ha ha

Protective clothing

You crack me up mate.

[Gary A]

I have liked two wheeled vehicles all my life. I started out with Cushman motor scooters and went up from there. I never had a Harley but have ridden them because on our little trips my friends would ask if we could trade bikes so they could ride my BMW until the feeling came back to their hands. My favorite bike of all time was a 750 Honda Magna shaft drive. That said, I still think you have to have a death wish to ride in Thailand. I rode a lot when I was younger and was still bullet proof. It finally dawned on me that I wasn't really bullet proof and no longer healed up as fast as when I was younger. We live in the boonies up country and I can't resist taking a ride on my wife's 125 Suzuki once in a while. Exploring the dirt roads and the little travelled mountain roads is irresistible. You can be the best and safest motorcyle driver in Thailand but you can't have 360 degree vision and you can't read other driver's minds.

[higgy88]

You guys are all quite correct in what you are saying and in your comparing bigger bikes to smaller ones, but I'm not quite ready to eat my words yet. Thailand is definately not an ideal place to drive any kind of vehicle. Too many drivers here just don't really know how to drive and/or they are just too drunk (the number one cause of traffic accidents) and too many are just basically much too inconsiderate of any of the other drivers on the road. There are potholes here that you can lose a truck in, and another problem I have is all of the dogs that think they own the road and I am trespassing on their territory. No, Gary I have never ridden a small bike on the beach, and I never will. I have however ridden small 4 wheeled dune buggies made for the beach (as 3 wheelers are much too dangerous). I will also never ride my Phantom on the beach. Which was exactly my point, to Gary and to you other guys. I really just don't agree with your very general statements that scooters are more unstable than bigger bikes. You can point out specific conditions where one type of bike would be more dangerous than another type of bike, and in your posts you mentioned riding on the beach or hitting potholes or manoeuvering sharp turns. The bottom line is you buy a bike for what you plan on using it for and where you plan on riding it. And I really do think one of the best bikes for going to the local market is the Vespa, or the local Thai made vespa designs that I see running around town.

So, back to Meow and her original post. You did get your discussion, but I think we have started going off in another direction. Where exactly do you plan on riding your bike and what are the conditions onder which you would be riding it? If it will be in the middle of a lot of fast moving traffic then you will only get in everyone's way, and that is exactly where you do not want to be. We really need to know that before we can help you decide what to do, and that is the whole point of this forum, isn't it.

My first bike was a 1966 305cc Honda Super Hawk and I still have lot's of fond memories of it before I crashed it. There are two kinds of bike riders, those who have fallen off and those who are going to fall off. When you do fall off you really want to protect yourself as much as possible. Only those who do not ride or ride on a bike will never fall off.

Thanks guys for setting me straight on the additional physics involved in motorcycles and motorcycle riding.

[wilko]

As far as a scooter vs a motorcycle the smaller the wheels the less stable it is. Scooters are more dangerous whether they go fast or slow. I do agree that a three wheeler is safer because you won't fall down as easily and get run over.

I'm sorry Gary but I really do need to take issue with this remark, at least as far as my knowledge of phycis go. As we all know, motorcycles are basically a very unstable vehicle since without some force acting on it it will fall down. While parked, the kickstand does the job. And while moving, it is the centrifical force produced by the rotation of the wheels that keep it from falling down. The faster the rotation of the wheels, the greater the force. All you have to do is watch motorcycles racing around a turn to see this in action. In order to go a specific speed, say 40 kph, bigger wheels will rotate at a slower speed than smaller wheels, and the slower rotation of the bigger wheels will produce less centrifical force than what would be produced by the smaller wheels. So scooters with smaller wheels are more stable at the same speed than a motorcycle with bigger wheels, and you will not fall down as easily on a scooter.

I have been riding motorcycles for a long time and I love them, along with most other kinds of motorized vehicles, and I absolutely do not have a death wish.

To the OP. You are right in that the motocycles and scooters here in Thailand are much cheaper to operate than cars or even taking public transportation, but whether it is the right thing for you to do really depends on where you live and where you want to go with it. The most dangerous things to you riding a bike are the other cars and trucks on the road. If you just want to use it to go to the market and places close to home, and you don't have to go in the middle of a big busy road, then a small scooter may be a good way for you to do it. But you should learn how to ride, always be very careful, always try to protect all the parts of your body as best you can even if it is too hot or it messes up your hair, and always keep it in the front of your mind that anything can happen at any time.

Ok - now I think you need to go back to your physics books...

If you are referring to "centrifugal" force, there is no such thing; the force you would be concerned with is centripetal force. The force exerted toward the centre of the wheel at right angles to the other force is the force that makes everything go in the straight line, i.e. not round and round like a wheel.

Now I’m going from memory here and a long time back but if I remember correctly it is a gyroscopic force that gives bikes their balance and the main factor in wheel dynamics are mass and size. I.e. the lever effect of a large diameter wheel would amplify the effect of a similar massed smaller wheel.

If smaller wheel were more effective they would be fitted to racing bikes wouldn’t they...but they’re not

The forward force of the machine is from the engine and through the chain onto the rear wheel via the crown sprocket...this is a linear motion converted to a circular motion by the centripetal force of the spokes.

Correct me if I’m wrong....I’m sure someone will

[Gary A]

YES! I know it has been a long time ago but I still remember playing with spinning tops. I haven't seen one for a long time but I remember that the larger diameter ones spun the longest before tipping over.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks; I always get confused between gyroscopes, gyroscopic motion, and those gyro sandwiches from Greece.

Haven't I told you, you're my gyro?

[terdsak_12]

.......and there's always Giros from the dole office!!!

[Lormaak]

Now I’m going from memory here and a long time back but if I remember correctly it is a gyroscopic force that gives bikes their balance

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Gyroscopic effects do not balance a bike, or are negligible at best. (Balance is not the same as stability.) All the gyroscopic effects are used for really, is steering. Gyroscopic precession is used in countersteering (push the left bar forward to go left). When the left bar is pushed forward, the front wheel turns to the right. This causes the bike to lean to the left, and move left.

Bikes balance though constant adjustment of body position and handlebars. It is difficult to balance a stationary bike because you have to move the centre of gravity so it is over the tyre contact patch, and body adjustment has to be used alone. Moving bikes are easier to balance because you can steer the bike so the tyre contact patch is under centre of gravity, which is much easier. The faster a bike moves, the more forward inertia it has, and it becomes less susceptible to unbalancing forces

In a similar way, it is hard to balance a matchstick on a finger, but easy to balance a broomstick. No gyros needed.

[qualtrough]

I think the 'scooter' vs. 'motorcycle' stability issue isn't really related to the overall MC accident rate here in Thailand. From my observation most accidents are the result of either extremely foolish driving by the motorcyclist, or the result of the same by other drivers. The number of accidents that result from any inherent instability in the bike itself is probably quite small. Even a bike with poor handling characteristics can be ridden safely if those are known and the operator rides within those known limits.

I used to ride bikes in the states in my younger years but a tangle with a deer at night and a few other close calls made me call it a day. The other issue is that when you are older you aren't as flexible as when you are younger and you don't bounce back from accidents as well.

If people want to ride motorcycles here I won't stop them, but personally I am not ashamed to admit it terrifies me. Why? Well, the proportion of drunk/impaired drivers is much, much higher than you would find back in your home countries, and the majority of drivers have no concern for the safety of others not to mention themselves.

One particular habit here that would concern me on a motorbike is the Thai habit of accelerating up until the last moment before applying the brakes. For example, you are in a taxi and the light a block ahead is red with a few cars waiting. Do you start to slow down so you can roll up to the other cars? No, you continue to accelerate and then brake at the very last moment. This means that if there is ever any problem with your brakes you aren't gonna be able to stop. Bad enough if you are in a car that is rear-ended, but disasterous if you are on a bike, as a previous poster witnessed. While a careful rider can avoid lots of dangerous situations, there is not much you can do when you have to sit and wait at a stoplight or are just slowing down.

Edited July 25, 2006 by qualtrough