Thinking about people in overstay

[globalmedia8]

Some of the crackdown is because of the large number of people on overstay.

It was more economical to overstay (and possibly working) than the cost of living (and working) legal.

But with the new rules they won't ever be able to leave the country or they wouldn't get back in again.

Don't do anything wrong and don't get anyone mad at you.

Should I know always keep my passport with me?

I heard President Obama now has 30% approve of his job.

as the overstay ban is not yet law the can get back in

[surfinglife]

What might be a nightmare for you is obviously a walk in the park for some!

One only worries if one thinks....having met a few overstayers I know they are a little challenged in the brains department....so no worries

[brianp0803]

People are able to clear overstay before the more sever penalties are enacted.

Looking towards the future:

Why did the overstay occur?

How to prevent it from happening again?

Some people feel it is their right to live here.

I believe it is Thailand's right to make that decision.

I am spending a lot of money and effort to adjust to their requirements.

This is their country.

[brianp0803]

What might be a nightmare for you is obviously a walk in the park for some!

One only worries if one thinks....having met a few overstayers I know they are a little challenged in the brains department....so no worries

If I was to make a prejudicial statement from knowing no over stay people personally,

I wonder about their contribution to Thailand.

Thailand shouldn't become a haven for poor people with no other options.

I've heard some people say they have no money to stay legal. Not a good reason.

Not good for Thailand

Maybe I am wrong.

[sdanielmcev]

They're lazy.

[Oziex1]

The overstayer when caught is often a wretched fellow, pale of skin, a crouched form his eyes darting from side to side. These are the symptoms of his self imprisonment in a darkened room sitting at a desk beady darting eyes flitting across a bank of monitors hooked to an array of security cameras surrounding his place of residence. His calloused fingers worn from too many keystrokes switching the angles of the visual display, while simultaneously reading Thai Visa for any updates that may free him from his unvisaed hell. Haunted by nightmares of jack booted Immigration Police marching en mass to his front door, he will never surrender he will never be witness to, or hear the dull thud of the passport stamp that spells out his ultimate failure. The stamp that says BLACKLISTED never to return,. The horror the horror.

[Sirbergan]

Reading some old topics on TV,I read about people staying in overstay for months,even for years.How they can live day by day knowing that they are broke the law?Where they live,most of them?I dont think in Pattaya or Bangkok or Phuket.They live in the deep forest,place like in deep Isaan?I really can't image myself one day in overstay,scaring minute by minute that police can stop and put me in jail.

You're trolling, right?

I'm never going to overstay myself, but you're comparing your own set of morals and your own standards and your fears onto others. I would never cheat on my wife or go base jumping, but other people does that - that's their prerogative. I know people who overstayed for years, and it's not like they were complete vagabonds - not by a long shot. In my mind, there's not much difference. You've committed to something, and decide to break that commitment. The difference lies in the consequences, though for many overstayers the consequences aren't really present. And many of them may even be prepared to go home if they are caught. Different places, different situations. That's all.

People are different. Deal with it.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Sirbergan

[ukguyinthai]

OP you have had a lot of negative replies from people, I cannot understand why. You find it interesting and it’s a fair question. And not a situation you want to find yourself in.

I have spoken to 4 people in Pattaya who are currently on overstay. One person over 10 years. They have some things in common.

They believe they are safe in Pattaya because they are mingled with many other farangs on holiday, and since we all look the same to Thai, they will not stand out if they keep a low key profile.

They have little money for whatever reason.

They don’t want to leave, because it’s a better life than going home.

Some have girl friends kids and wife’s they don’t want to leave. They could not afford to get back even if they were not black listed. Leaving them heart broken and their family’s heart broken.

One has run away from big family problems and cannot face it, overstay is so low on his worries.

My point is there is stronger emotional reasons, that reduce the overstay as a problem. To some extent overstay is the solution not the problem.

So if the overstay is a big problem in your thinking (which it should be) then you are doing ok. Please feel free to debate anything in your mind you want. Don’t worry about the negative people who kick you for asking a question you find interesting.

[Sirbergan]

OP you have had a lot of negative replies from people, I cannot understand why. You find it interesting and it’s a fair question. And not a situation you want to find yourself in.

I have spoken to 4 people in Pattaya who are currently on overstay. One person over 10 years. They have some things in common.

They believe they are safe in Pattaya because they are mingled with many other farangs on holiday, and since we all look the same to Thai, they will not stand out if they keep a low key profile.

They have little money for whatever reason.

They don’t want to leave, because it’s a better life than going home.

Some have girl friends kids and wife’s they don’t want to leave. They could not afford to get back even if they were not black listed. Leaving them heart broken and their family’s heart broken.

One has run away from big family problems and cannot face it, overstay is so low on his worries.

My point is there is stronger emotional reasons, that reduce the overstay as a problem. To some extent overstay is the solution not the problem.

So if the overstay is a big problem in your thinking (which it should be) then you are doing ok. Please feel free to debate anything in your mind you want. Don’t worry about the negative people who kick you for asking a question you find interesting.

Actually, the comments are perfectly justified. Sure, your reply is fine on some levels - but people are different. He or she is not really asking for the reasons, but how they, in a moral perspective, can overstay. That in itself makes your post 100% obsolete.

Circumstantial reasons won't apply.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Sirbergan

[farang000999]

There is probably a strong correlation to mental health issues and overstay just as there is a strong correlation to mental health and criminality. Many with mental health issues just seem to have a very hard time standing in line/following rules. It does not make much sense to find yourself on overstay.

[ukguyinthai]

What might be a nightmare for you is obviously a walk in the park for some!

One only worries if one thinks....having met a few overstayers I know they are a little challenged in the brains department....so no worries

If I was to make a prejudicial statement from knowing no over stay people personally,

I wonder about their contribution to Thailand.

Thailand shouldn't become a haven for poor people with no other options.

I've heard some people say they have no money to stay legal. Not a good reason.

Not good for Thailand

Maybe I am wrong.

I think you are wrong

where should poor people go with no options?( and there are many Thais in this situation )

let me guess ,back to their own country.

Ok then lets do swops.....1 poor person ( none Thai) in exchange for a poor Thai in the poor persons (none Thai) country. Oh how do we actually define poor.

And how can we be sure a poor person cannot contribute to people in Thailand. Does a person only contribute through cash.

I wouldn't make prejudicial statements from not knowing the group of people you are assessing.

Every country has poor people from many different countries with no visas and work permits,all contributing,often doing jobs the natives won't do.Thailand is a world leader in that department.........so you cannot say its "not good for Thailand"if it wasn't for those "poor people with no options" you desire to be removed from the country,you wouldn't be able to buy petrol.Or have your rubbish removed. Maybe you feel comfortable with this group,and was thinking more towards european poor groups.Who should not be allowed to come and share your beeches and lovely countryside.

[ukguyinthai]

OP you have had a lot of negative replies from people, I cannot understand why. You find it interesting and it’s a fair question. And not a situation you want to find yourself in.

I have spoken to 4 people in Pattaya who are currently on overstay. One person over 10 years. They have some things in common.

They believe they are safe in Pattaya because they are mingled with many other farangs on holiday, and since we all look the same to Thai, they will not stand out if they keep a low key profile.

They have little money for whatever reason.

They don’t want to leave, because it’s a better life than going home.

Some have girl friends kids and wife’s they don’t want to leave. They could not afford to get back even if they were not black listed. Leaving them heart broken and their family’s heart broken.

One has run away from big family problems and cannot face it, overstay is so low on his worries.

My point is there is stronger emotional reasons, that reduce the overstay as a problem. To some extent overstay is the solution not the problem.

So if the overstay is a big problem in your thinking (which it should be) then you are doing ok. Please feel free to debate anything in your mind you want. Don’t worry about the negative people who kick you for asking a question you find interesting.

Actually, the comments are perfectly justified. Sure, your reply is fine on some levels - but people are different. He or she is not really asking for the reasons, but how they, in a moral perspective, can overstay. That in itself makes your post 100% obsolete.

Circumstantial reasons won't apply.

OP questioned if the overstayers could be in Pattaya,I told him I knew 4. I answered how they can overstay by trying to explain ,emotional feelings can dispel any moral negative feelings about law. A guy feels its morally correct to stay and look after his kids and hope to find a solution to the overstay problem later.

You think my post is 100% obsolete.Many discussions here do diverge into totally different subjects.But you could of been a little kinder than -100%.Never mind one less xmas present I have to buy,ha.

[SiggiCM]

nothing sure yet,, nobody yet banned because of overstay, you can go out and come back with next plain

[hawker9000]

Cant decide whether op is trolling or is naive

Writing about me?

He certainly is. Why should anyone that is on overstay be of any concern to anyone other than them ? Why should anyone think anything ? The fact people overstay has no bearing or impact on my visa or work permit so why should it concern me ?

People overstay for a variety of reasons. Doesn't make them bad people. Loads of people here ride their bike without a crash helmet, Drive or ride after several beers and don't have a valid Thai license. I don't think or worry about them either

Up to them

I agree with your post apart from one thing, people driving or riding their motorcycle after several beers, as a driver and motorcycle rider, I object to sharing a road with these people, as they can cost me my life, and not to mention people who don't drive or ride whos lives have been ruined by these scumbags.

Ah, I see now. It's everyone's privilege to decide for themselves which laws are "good" and should be obeyed (e.g., drunk driving), and which laws are "bad" and don't need to be (e.g., overstaying). 'Particularly as guests in a foreign country. OK. Got it.

Just one pesky little question though. Doesn't that sort o' cause problems when the laws YOU think are bad and intend to ignore happen to be the same ones OTHERS (particularly those with uniforms, badges & guns) think are GOOD?

Edited October 10, 2014 by hawker9000

[jspill]

Blacklisting rules were supposed to go into effect, what, 7 months ago? April if i recall. Yet they never did, and the poster in the 11 year overstay thread just went out and got back in no questions asked.

I don't buy the argument that any 'crackdown' (what has actually changed other than no back to back visa exemptions?) was caused by lots of people overstaying. They're a fraction of the population. Thailand makes way more profit on tourists paying 500b/day for short overstays than they lose on long-timers.

Seems more like an idea by one overzealous official who perhaps doesn't particularly like expats or whatever, that got shelved. Wouldn't be the first time. Coincidentally the guy who was to be the new top guy in immigration around the time of the 'crackdown' is no longer in that job.

Edited October 10, 2014 by jspill

[SaintLouisBlues]

The fact is that there are classes of people who at one time or another have "lived with" being law-breakers (until recently, homosexuals in English-speaking countries, for example). Human beings are remarkably resiliant, and besides most people think "It will never happen to me", "it" in this case being caught. Many people "live with" breaking the law on exceeding the speed limit every day, and run a much larger risk of being caught than someone who has over-stayed his visa in a foreign country. The US, the UK or Australia are full of Caucasian kids who went there on a holiday visa and decided to stay. They blend in. They don't make waves.

A few years ago the Australian department of immigration instituted a short-term amnesty for Thai over-stayers who reported to the nearest Thai consulate to leave Australia with no penalty. Hundreds took advantage of it. My brother's Thai partner was working with a couple who had been living in Sydney for nine years without being caught, and they then decided to use the amnesty. This isn't just a "naughty farang in Thailand" question. It happens everywhere there's a country that for one reason or another is attractive to those who reach its shores legally (and even more so illegally - but they're an infinitely smaller minority)

Edited October 10, 2014 by SaintLouisBlues

[hawker9000]

The fact is that there are classes of people who at one time or another have "lived with" being law-breakers (until recently, homosexuals in English-speaking countries, for example). Human beings are remarkably resiliant, and besides most people think "It will never happen to me", "it" in this case being caught. Many people "live with" breaking the law on exceeding the speed limit every day, and run a much larger risk of being caught than someone who has over-stayed his visa in a foreign country. The US, the UK or Australia are full of Caucasian kids who went there on a holiday visa and decided to stay. They blend in. They don't make waves.

Can't argue that. Yet all it takes is one foreigner committing some particularly outrageous crime and discovered to have been in the country illegally in the first place, to put not only all overstayers, but foreigners generally, in the spotlight. Suddenly xenophobic demagogues take up the talking stick and hold court. When that happens, even those who've been playing strictly by the rules begin to suffer... THAT's why I care about others who flout thai immigration law by impudently overstaying. I don't inquire about such things, and so seldom have any knowledge of it, and I realize there's sometimes a good reason for a short and unintended and perhaps even unavoidable overstay, but with that exception I think those just plain ignoring these laws are lowlife and not fit company, and when they suddenly find themselves in difficulty and without the resources to dig themselves out of the hole they've dug for themselves, I have no sympathy.

[moe666]

I find it very interesting that many here think it is ok to break the laws of Thailand, probably the same folks who spend hours and hours complaining about all of the problems in Thailand could be solved by Thailand becoming more like the place they come from. By the way Thais are not lazy

[brianp0803]

Thailand makes money on short overstay but after 7 weeks they already hit the maximum fine.

As some have pointed out, overstay is cheaper than paying for legal path.

Short overstays happen because plans change.

Long overstays happen because no planning.

I occasionally speed but not continually for long time.

Why do people overstay?

After paying the fine will they stay legal?

Are most working illegal?

Someone suggested they have wife or family here but then they have legal options.

I do understand marriage visa for a year requires financial assets -almost the same as retirement.

I assume most long time overstay are barely surviving or they would choose another path?

I try to understand.

Mental illness can't be the only explanation.

[NoshowJones]

Mr Hawker, I am not sure if your reply is referring to me, but I will try and answer it. I am not in favour of people overstaying, but for those who are, what I'm saying is it is their business and not mine whether it's here in Thailand or my own country. unless it is affecting you or people like you then you keep out of it. If I do not agree with a certain rule or law, whether it's here or in my own country, and I can get away with it, I will not obey it. there are some unfair rules both here and in my own country, more so my own country.

Can you honestly say you have never broken any laws? If so, then why bother to get out of bed in the morning? You look after yourself and family first, as long as you are not interfereing with anyone else. If I obeyed every law in my own country, I would not be here in Thailand today.

[ATF]

Sure some people are mentally ill but they make up a very small proportion of overstayers. It's mostly people who want to stay here but have run out of funds or never had the where with all to begin with. Some have even had everything stolen and they've given Thailand the finger.

Unfortunately this group of people are easy pickings for criminal gangs both Thai and Foreign.

They get mixed up in the drug trade, sex trade, internet scams and all sorts of illegal activity.

[dotpoom]

Oh and I forgot, the correct preposition is "on" overstay. It only becomes "in" when they get caught!!!

I don't think the OP is a native English speaker so prepositions won't mean a lot to him.

[Oziex1]

One poster reports that the new rules of blacklisting over stayers when caught has not been implemented if this is true then overstay can't be such a bad thing, not that it's a path that I would take. A 20,000 Bt fine is small money compared to the cost of visa runs and other rig ma roll.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Oziex1

[hawker9000]

Mr Hawker, I am not sure if your reply is referring to me, but I will try and answer it. I am not in favour of people overstaying, but for those who are, what I'm saying is it is their business and not mine whether it's here in Thailand or my own country. unless it is affecting you or people like you then you keep out of it. If I do not agree with a certain rule or law, whether it's here or in my own country, and I can get away with it, I will not obey it. there are some unfair rules both here and in my own country, more so my own country.

Can you honestly say you have never broken any laws? If so, then why bother to get out of bed in the morning? You look after yourself and family first, as long as you are not interfereing with anyone else. If I obeyed every law in my own country, I would not be here in Thailand today.

By this logic, any lawbreaking, up to and including murder and assassination, can be justified, and by this logic, it's no one else's business. The lawbreaker only has to "disagree with" the law, which is usually just another way of saying "inconvenient" or not to one's own advantage, and then according to you, there's no harm & no foul. There couldn't be a more preposterous position to take, again, particularly as a guest in a foreign country. Ignorance of the law or sheer inability to comply with it is one thing; outright defiance something else. No one exercising due diligence as a visitor in a foreign country can be ignorant of overstay restrictions, and as I've said there may be isolated cases in which a short overstay is unavoidable; but deliberate willful overstay is inexcusable and IS the business of everyone else who's observing the law and wants to preserve one's welcome as a responsible and respectful visitor.

And so I've provided you with a reason why overstaying IS every other foreign visitor's business; it DOES affect them. It's just an effect you have to be able to look past the end of your own nose, and past the next happy hour, to see.

[Tayida]

Woohhh.why You Think i am trolling?I just would like to know what pass through the mind of a 11 years overstater....but not after 11 years,but day by day........after that if you think this is a silly topic,you can close it.

[jspill]

deliberate willful overstay is inexcusable and IS the business of everyone else who's observing the law and wants to preserve one's welcome as a responsible and respectful visitor.

I'm yet to meet a Thai who has such a strong position on the matter, most reports of paying overstay at Suvarnabhumi have the officers grinning and laughing, 'see you next time' etc.

Thai's would be quite surprised reading this thread to see how uptight westerners can get about a minor misdemeanor, to go to such lengths as to tell other expats they are undermining their welcome in the country.

[brianp0803]

The small fine before showed Thailand's lack of caring about the problem.

The pending increase in penalty possibly shows Thailand is maybe more concerned.

Someone posted it has been 7 months since the increased penalty was proposed. More than enough time.

Maybe not really serious.

The conclusions about overstay seems mostly about poor planning and not adequate resources to stay legally in Thailand.

I still believe in following the law.

But many people frequently break the law copying textbooks and buying dvd and fake clothes. Common and accepted in Thailand but still illegal.

[brianp0803]

Most people who break rules claim nobody is hurt and the rule is not important and shouldn't apply to them.

Why do you think they made the rule?

For collecting fines?

Often rule breakers get very adamant about someone else breaking a rule that might affect them. Pot calling the kettle black.

[NoshowJones]

Mr Hawker, I am not sure if your reply is referring to me, but I will try and answer it. I am not in favour of people overstaying, but for those who are, what I'm saying is it is their business and not mine whether it's here in Thailand or my own country. unless it is affecting you or people like you then you keep out of it. If I do not agree with a certain rule or law, whether it's here or in my own country, and I can get away with it, I will not obey it. there are some unfair rules both here and in my own country, more so my own country.

Can you honestly say you have never broken any laws? If so, then why bother to get out of bed in the morning? You look after yourself and family first, as long as you are not interfereing with anyone else. If I obeyed every law in my own country, I would not be here in Thailand today.

By this logic, any lawbreaking, up to and including murder and assassination, can be justified, and by this logic, it's no one else's business. The lawbreaker only has to "disagree with" the law, which is usually just another way of saying "inconvenient" or not to one's own advantage, and then according to you, there's no harm & no foul. There couldn't be a more preposterous position to take, again, particularly as a guest in a foreign country. Ignorance of the law or sheer inability to comply with it is one thing; outright defiance something else. No one exercising due diligence as a visitor in a foreign country can be ignorant of overstay restrictions, and as I've said there may be isolated cases in which a short overstay is unavoidable; but deliberate willful overstay is inexcusable and IS the business of everyone else who's observing the law and wants to preserve one's welcome as a responsible and respectful visitor.

And so I've provided you with a reason why overstaying IS every other foreign visitor's business; it DOES affect them. It's just an effect you have to be able to look past the end of your own nose, and past the next happy hour, to see.

I am enjoying this debate with you, and I have debated this very thing only recently, if someone is raped or murdered etc etc, in any country, and you know something that could help the police bring someone to justice for it, you must tell them, when I said that if I do not agree with any rule or law, then I will not obey it, but please note, I said "as long as you are not interfering with anyone else".

Also, neither you or me are guests in this country, we both, whether we live here or are geniune tourists etc, are contributing to Thailands economy, some of us have to do this ridiculous 90 day reporting, and look at the hassle to get extensions based on marriage etc. That is no way to treat guests, us expats are not guests, we are tolerated because of what we bring to Thailands economy.

I do agree with you about overstaying, and that willful overstaying is inexcusable, but it is not anyone elses business, and nothing to do with us. Let me give you an example about breaking laws that I don't agree with, I bought a new truck and it had red plates on it, Thai law says you must not drive it outside your own province, or drive it after dark until you get white number plates. I do not agree with this law, so I broke it. I will ask you again, have you never broken any laws either here or in your own country?

[ATF]

Most people who break rules claim nobody is hurt and the rule is not important and shouldn't apply to them.

Why do you think they made the rule?

For collecting fines?

Often rule breakers get very adamant about someone else breaking a rule that might affect them. Pot calling the kettle black.

As had been said the ban has not been made law yet and it probably will bring up all sorts of human rights issues if families are permanently separated.

It's alright if people have the money to pay the fines and avoid going to jail and being deported it's not a big deal for them.

However most overstayers are not doing it out of choice but necessity and it's these people who end up getting roped into the promise of making a quick buck by drug smuggling, doing porn movies, credit card fraud etc.

Many are blackmailed into these activities because they usually owe money to unsavoury characters too.