Chicog Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 After the long sad history of British meddling in the region I see little point in making things worse by appearing to stick their oar in. As an aside I wonder why the British don't vote to hold the Palestinians to the responsibilities of being a state if they are so keen on conferring upon them the right to be one. It was actually the UN's idea to partition Palestine. Britain was against it. But I think it's reasonable to say that a two-state solution now probably represents the best chance for peace (that's if there is one). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky54 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 After the long sad history of British meddling in the region I see little point in making things worse by appearing to stick their oar in. As an aside I wonder why the British don't vote to hold the Palestinians to the responsibilities of being a state if they are so keen on conferring upon them the right to be one. It was actually the UN's idea to partition Palestine. Britain was against it. But I think it's reasonable to say that a two-state solution now probably represents the best chance for peace (that's if there is one). The so called Palestinians were against it as well, of course it's the best solution, better tell hamas that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexterm Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 The future is in the hands of the 'Palestinians' they have had several chances for a state but have continued to prefer war over peace, so far it has only brought them death. As already said in this topic these issues have been endlessly debated on TV. I think it is fair to say during these discussions it's generally agreed over the years both sides have contributed to a failure to reach a deal. Below is analysis of the failure of relatively recent negotiations that underlines the complexity; some will agree, some disagree and the cycle will go on. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-zunes/us-culpability-in-the-fai_b_5455371.html Good article in the Huffington Post. It exposes the USA for the dishonest hypocritical broker that it really is. Smart move by Abbas to bypass Israel and USA, going directly to the international community. If UK gets on board with Sweden tomorrow, maybe others will follow and pressure will build for a just peace agreement....the world economy certainly needs it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 After the long sad history of British meddling in the region I see little point in making things worse by appearing to stick their oar in. As an aside I wonder why the British don't vote to hold the Palestinians to the responsibilities of being a state if they are so keen on conferring upon them the right to be one. It was actually the UN's idea to partition Palestine. Britain was against it. But I think it's reasonable to say that a two-state solution now probably represents the best chance for peace (that's if there is one). The so called Palestinians were against it as well, of course it's the best solution, better tell hamas that. Well, like the Israelis, Hamas will never give up their claim to Jerusalem. Like I said, I'd clear them all out and reduce it to a nuclear wasteland. Then let's see them fight to see who gets it first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I'm smart enough to know that Israel has been trying to make peace since the Palestinian Arabs declared war on them in 1948 and the Palestinians have refused time after time and continued with violent jihad. Are you smart enough to know the ones who started the violence in the first place and have refused numerous peace deals deserve the lions share of the blame?as ever the American Israel apologist doesnt want the simple recognition of Palestine as a state. The Uk I hope and believe will do so soon.And Screw the USA and it's view. Lets have more and more EU and Western countries stand up. Do we need to remind everyone of the recent number of civilian casualities in the west bank dead or wounded by Israel's bombs and rockets, TEN THOUSAND in 2 months. You obviously haven't seen the UK recently, mate. Our country has been invaded by Pakis and other extremists who have no regard for the rule of law. The Mayor of London just stated that UK intelligence is monitoring THOUSANDS of extremists legally living in London as UK citizens. Think before you speak. Thousands in London implies tens of thousands nationwide. Now surely our politicians aren't so deluded as to thinking recognizing Palestine would placate said extremists and decide them to behave like model citizens. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky54 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Boris is of course an Islamic apologist whose granddaddy could recite the Koran. He also wants Turkey in the Eu, so if Boris thinks islamic extremists are a problem, then it sure as hell must be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I'm smart enough to know that Israel has been trying to make peace since the Palestinian Arabs declared war on them in 1948 and the Palestinians have refused time after time and continued with violent jihad. Are you smart enough to know the ones who started the violence in the first place and have refused numerous peace deals deserve the lions share of the blame?as ever the American Israel apologist doesnt want the simple recognition of Palestine as a state. Of course I do. As soon as the Palestinians sign a peace plan, recognize the Jewish state and honor their commitments under the Oslo Accords, they should get their own country. Recognizing Palestine as a state, before that time, means nothing according to the agreements that they already made, which is why this vote is merely symbolic. 5555...as usual want to keep the last word, aren't you.....what about people not recognizing Israel because of their human rights violations record, their constant non respecting of international law and their total disinterest in a peaceful solution?... you would certainly agree that we in the meantime disrecognize Israel, aren't you...5555... Anything to sidestep the fact that Hamas and Hezbollah are both terrorist organisations. A joke surely that either has even the slightest interest in a peaceful solution. Now which one is bankrolled by Iran? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Off-topic posts and replies removed. Stay on topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) The future is in the hands of the 'Palestinians' they have had several chances for a state but have continued to prefer war over peace, so far it has only brought them death.They refused to have a state under Israeli conditions.Jews made deals with UK government long before the Balfour declaration to Rothschild. UK will never vote in favour for the Palestinians. Edited October 12, 2014 by Thorgal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky54 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) The future is in the hands of the 'Palestinians' they have had several chances for a state but have continued to prefer war over peace, so far it has only brought them death.They refused to have a state under Israeli conditions.Jews made deals with UK government long before the Balfour declaration to Rothschild. No, UN conditions originally. They want a state with no Israel, and that is not going to happen. Edited October 12, 2014 by jacky54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Israel demonizers can't let go of the mental crutch that in their view Israel should have never existed in the first place. Dudes, too late for that. Move it along to today. What now? Is this unilateral approach really going to work for reasonable goals of a peaceful two state solution? As I posted before, the pro two state solution left wing Israeli political party strongly thinks it is exactly the WRONG approach to move towards that goal. The Israeli right wing is indeed strong. The argument is that this approach makes them even stronger. Is that the goal of the Palestinians now? To make the Israeli right wing even stronger? Edited October 12, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konying Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 After the long sad history of British meddling in the region I see little point in making things worse by appearing to stick their oar in. As an aside I wonder why the British don't vote to hold the Palestinians to the responsibilities of being a state if they are so keen on conferring upon them the right to be one. It was actually the UN's idea to partition Palestine. Britain was against it. But I think it's reasonable to say that a two-state solution now probably represents the best chance for peace (that's if there is one). Name 1 single year in the past 2000 when there was a peace in the middle East ? Some religions simply can not live in peace and nothing will ever change that, no matter how much you twist and turn the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Numerous off-topic posts and replies have been removed. Further public notices to stay on topic will not be posted and posters will receive suspensions. The topic is about the UK vote on Palestine. Stay strictly on that topic or you will be given a suspension. Further baiting and flaming will not be tolerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexterm Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Israel demonizers can't let go of the mental crutch that in their view Israel should have never existed in the first place. Dudes, too late for that. Move it along to today. What now? Is this unilateral approach really going to work for reasonable goals of a peaceful two state solution? As I posted before, the pro two state solution left wing Israeli political party strongly thinks it is exactly the WRONG approach to move towards that goal. The Israeli right wing is indeed strong. The argument is that this approach makes them even stronger. Is that the goal of the Palestinians now? To make the Israeli right wing even stronger? The Palestinians are taking the unilateral course because the bilateral approach of direct negotiations with Israel for almost 50 years now quite clearly has not worked. In fact it has been counterproductive for them..just a smokescreen for Israel under a succession of right wing governments to build more colonies on stolen land while pretending to negotiate peace. Perhaps if Yitzak Rabin had not been assassinated, we may have had a negotiated peace by now. Palestinians are tired of waiting after one of the longest occupations in modern history. I hope the UK vote succeeds tomorrow. Whether it does or does not, ideas get planted in people’s minds, and ideas turn to movements for change as has happened elsewhere in the world to put right anachronistic injustices. With international recognition of a Palestine within the 67 borders after land swaps, Israel will still have 78% of historic Palestine, and the Palestinians a mere 22% of what used to be entirely theirs..not much to ask for is it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Israel having their security concerns respected is not too much to ask either. If the Palestinians refuse to talk, and continue with this unilateral tactic represented here by the UK vote, that won't happen, and Israel will not accept this abstraction. An example. There is a big music concert I want to go to. I don't like dealing with the ticket people ... they've wronged me in the past ... I create my own ticket via Photoshop and print it. I show up. Do I get in the concert, or not? We all agree Israel is the current power in that small region. Deal with them directly or there is no show, no REAL Palestinian state. Edited October 12, 2014 by Jingthing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Israel having their security concerns respected is not too much to ask either. If the Palestinians refuse to talk, and continue with this unilateral tactic represented here by the UK vote, that won't happen, and Israel will not accept this abstraction. An example. There is a big music concert I want to go to. I don't like dealing with the ticket people ... they've wronged me in the past ... I create my own ticket via Photoshop and print it. I show up. Do I get in the concert, or not? We all agree Israel is the current power in that small region. Deal with them directly or there is no show, no REAL Palestinian state. To my knowledge, no Palestinian asked the UK to vote to recognize their imdependent state.It was under UK initiative... Where did you get this 'unilateral tactic' of the Palestinians ?... Edited October 12, 2014 by Thorgal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexterm Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Israel having their security concerns respected is not too much to ask either. If the Palestinians refuse to talk, and continue with this unilateral tactic represented here by the UK vote, that won't happen, and Israel will not accept this abstraction. An example. There is a big music concert I want to go to. I don't like dealing with the ticket people ... they've wronged me in the past ... I create my own ticket via Photoshop and print it. I show up. Do I get in the concert, or not? We all agree Israel is the current power in that small region. Deal with them directly or there is no show, no REAL Palestinian state. With international recognition by the UK (and hopefully other European countries) of a Palestinian state within approximately 67 borders, it will provide a legitimacy for the Palestinians (no forged tickets there..but ones stamped and supported by most of the world apart from Israel, USA and one or two remote Pacific Islands). They wont have to beg the occupying Israelis for their human rights. They will be their equals, and it will be Israel and the USA who will have to justify before the whole world their ongoing 50 year occupation. It’s time this hypocritical injustice ended. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Israel having their security concerns respected is not too much to ask either. If the Palestinians refuse to talk, and continue with this unilateral tactic represented here by the UK vote, that won't happen, and Israel will not accept this abstraction. An example. There is a big music concert I want to go to. I don't like dealing with the ticket people ... they've wronged me in the past ... I create my own ticket via Photoshop and print it. I show up. Do I get in the concert, or not? We all agree Israel is the current power in that small region. Deal with them directly or there is no show, no REAL Palestinian state. To my knowledge, no Palestinian asked the UK to vote to recognize their imdependent state.It was under UK initiative... Where did you get this 'unilateral tactic' of the Palestinians ?... It is a general tactic of Abbas now. Global. He is asking lots and lots of countries, including the U.N. This thread is about the U.K. but this has already been done by many other countries. Just google "abbas asks to recognize state" Edited October 12, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Thorgal Posted October 12, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted October 12, 2014 Time for Palestinians to : - have a harbour, - navigate in their own water - explore O&G resources - manage their own import and export - ... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) Israel having their security concerns respected is not too much to ask either. If the Palestinians refuse to talk, and continue with this unilateral tactic represented here by the UK vote, that won't happen, and Israel will not accept this abstraction. An example. There is a big music concert I want to go to. I don't like dealing with the ticket people ... they've wronged me in the past ... I create my own ticket via Photoshop and print it. I show up. Do I get in the concert, or not? We all agree Israel is the current power in that small region. Deal with them directly or there is no show, no REAL Palestinian state. To my knowledge, no Palestinian asked the UK to vote to recognize their imdependent state.It was under UK initiative... Where did you get this 'unilateral tactic' of the Palestinians ?... It is a general tactic of Abbas now. Global.He is asking lots and lots of countries, including the U.N. This thread is about the U.K. but this has already been done by many other countries. Just google "abbas asks to recognize state" Did he ask to the UK ?Please provide a link or quote... I would be really surprised. How many UK-MP's are Jewish ? Edited October 12, 2014 by Thorgal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I can not find a link about a specific Abbas ask to the U.K. I can find such links regarding the U.N, the U.S., and France. I am not really following this obsession about the ask given the overwhelming evidence Hamas wants Palestinian state recognition without cooperation with Israel. What is the logic of this game? That Abbas doesn't want recognition from the U.K. specifically and does from the U.N, and other countries? That is absurd. BTW, it could be he hasn't explicitly asked the U.K. because he thought he would be denied at present. Or it could be I just don't want to spend a lot of time searching for a link that might exist, because I think the question is largely irrelevant, as it obvious to anyone with common sense that Abbas seeks such recognition from any country that would agree, including the U.N.! Edited October 12, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexterm Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Israel having their security concerns respected is not too much to ask either. If the Palestinians refuse to talk, and continue with this unilateral tactic represented here by the UK vote, that won't happen, and Israel will not accept this abstraction. An example. There is a big music concert I want to go to. I don't like dealing with the ticket people ... they've wronged me in the past ... I create my own ticket via Photoshop and print it. I show up. Do I get in the concert, or not? We all agree Israel is the current power in that small region. Deal with them directly or there is no show, no REAL Palestinian state. To my knowledge, no Palestinian asked the UK to vote to recognize their imdependent state.It was under UK initiative... Where did you get this 'unilateral tactic' of the Palestinians ?... It is a general tactic of Abbas now. Global.He is asking lots and lots of countries, including the U.N. This thread is about the U.K. but this has already been done by many other countries. Just google "abbas asks to recognize state" Did he ask to the UK ?Please provide a link or quote... I would be really surprised. How many UK-MP's are Jewish ? Ed Millband the leader of the Labor party that is proposing this UK vote is Jewish. His mother, a Polish Jew who survived the Holocaust having been protected by Poles, is a civil rights and pro Palestinian activist. I daresay he learnt about human rights from her. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I don't think the ethnicity of U.K. legislators is particularly relevant. Jews have diverse opinions ... in Israel and in the diaspora. Personally, I would support the unilateral recognition effort of Abbas IF I really believed that was the path towards a peaceful resolution to the conflict with two states. But I'm not convinced ... largely because Israel's security concerns are not addressed by this or even discussed ... so just saying you're a state and declaring set borders in a region with VERY CONTESTED BORDERS, when you don't have buy in from your most important neighbor directly involved with those BORDERS ... it doesn't cut it. While I think I kind of understand where Abbas is coming from, he's frustrated, he's politically weak, he's in this weird partnership with genocidal Jihadist Hamas now ... I think for the many nations going along with this unilateral Palestine state recognition now (possibly soon to add the U.K, we will see), it's more about getting on board with the fashionable demonization of Israel. Do they sincerely think this is going to bring peace without involving Israel? I really doubt that they do. Edited October 12, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I don't think the ethnicity of U.K. legislators is particularly relevant. Jews have diverse opinions ... in Israel and in the diaspora. Personally, I would support the unilateral recognition effort of Abbas IF I really believed that was the path towards a peaceful resolution to the conflict with two states. But I'm not convinced ... largely because Israel's security concerns are not addressed by this or even discussed ... so just saying you're a state and declaring set borders in a region with VERY CONTESTED BORDERS, when you don't have buy in from your most important neighbor directly involved with those BORDERS ... it doesn't cut it. Also David Cameron... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10692563/David-Cameron-tells-Israelis-about-his-Jewish-ancestors.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dexterm Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 (edited) I don't think the ethnicity of U.K. legislators is particularly relevant. Jews have diverse opinions ... in Israel and in the diaspora. Personally, I would support the unilateral recognition effort of Abbas IF I really believed that was the path towards a peaceful resolution to the conflict with two states. But I'm not convinced ... largely because Israel's security concerns are not addressed by this or even discussed ... so just saying you're a state and declaring set borders in a region with VERY CONTESTED BORDERS, when you don't have buy in from your most important neighbor directly involved with those BORDERS ... it doesn't cut it. While I think I kind of understand where Abbas is coming from, he's frustrated, he's politically weak, he's in this weird partnership with genocidal Jihadist Hamas now ... I think for the many nations going along with this unilateral Palestine state recognition now (possibly soon to add the U.K, we will see), it's more about getting on board with the fashionable demonization of Israel. Do they sincerely think this is going to bring peace without involving Israel? I really doubt that they do. I think it is precisely because of attitudes similar to yours that the 67 borders are in some way contentious (and many in the extreme right wing of Israeli politics hold even more radical views) that Abbas feels unable to negotiate with Likud and is seeking recognition from the international community. He’s saying ...whoa, before Israel’s ever expanding borders are a fait accompli, let’s get back to the basis of this whole conflict...land. I’m sure the eventual border will accommodate some of the large Israeli colonies near the 67 green line in exchange for land swaps. I’m sure that Israel’s security concerns will be addressed too...otherwise Israel wont sign up Many of these issues have already been agreed to in the Oslo Accords, Camp David, and Olmert’s plan. Perhaps the UK and Sweden are better friends of Israel than many right wing Israelis themselves, and are nudging Israel in the right direction. It’s time Israel made a lasting internationally recognized peace with their neighbors...the only kind worth having. Israel's pacified neighbors would be a useful buffer against the IS. Maybe that's what this vote is all about..kill two birds with one stone... a response to the changing geopolitics. Edited October 12, 2014 by dexterm 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seastallion Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 I don't think the ethnicity of U.K. legislators is particularly relevant. Jews have diverse opinions ... in Israel and in the diaspora. Personally, I would support the unilateral recognition effort of Abbas IF I really believed that was the path towards a peaceful resolution to the conflict with two states. But I'm not convinced ... largely because Israel's security concerns are not addressed by this or even discussed ... so just saying you're a state and declaring set borders in a region with VERY CONTESTED BORDERS, when you don't have buy in from your most important neighbor directly involved with those BORDERS ... it doesn't cut it. While I think I kind of understand where Abbas is coming from, he's frustrated, he's politically weak, he's in this weird partnership with genocidal Jihadist Hamas now ... I think for the many nations going along with this unilateral Palestine state recognition now (possibly soon to add the U.K, we will see), it's more about getting on board with the fashionable demonization of Israel. Do they sincerely think this is going to bring peace without involving Israel? I really doubt that they do. I think it is precisely because of attitudes similar to yours that the 67 borders are in some way contentious (and many in the extreme right wing of Israeli politics hold even more radical views) that Abbas feels unable to negotiate with Likud and is seeking recognition from the international community. He’s saying ...whoa, before Israel’s ever expanding borders are a fait accompli, let’s get back to the basis of this whole conflict...land. I’m sure the eventual border will accommodate some of the large Israeli colonies near the 67 green line in exchange for land swaps. I’m sure that Israel’s security concerns will be addressed too...otherwise Israel wont sign up Many of these issues have already been agreed to in the Oslo Accords, Camp David, and Olmert’s plan. Perhaps the UK and Sweden are better friends of Israel than many right wing Israelis themselves, and are nudging Israel in the right direction. It’s time Israel made a lasting internationally recognized peace with their neighbors...the only kind worth having. Israel's pacified neighbors would be a useful buffer against the IS. Maybe that's what this vote is all about..kill two birds with one stone... a response to the changing geopolitics. Of all the to'ing and fro'ing of all the debates on this subject, I think Dexterm has encapsulated very nicely what a solution is about. Israel has no choice but to accept that they can not indefinitely run roughshod over Palestinians. The international community has had enough as this proposed UK resolution shows. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Good luck really to those sincerely believe this approach will bring about a peaceful two state solution. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacky54 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Well lets hope the vote is a no then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Either way it changes nothing really in the actual region. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgal Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Well lets hope the vote is a no then. Than they should both vote to ban any backpacking and hitchhiking activity in Occupied Territory... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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