Sex Tourism

[kerryk]

Some of the guys really do come out with some truly amazing statistics from time to time.

Just how many Thais visit Pattaya as tourists? Are they there for the prostitution? I very doubt it! It doesn't matter how long they stay, but hundreds on thousands of Thai tourists pass through Pattaya/Bang Saen/Rayong every month.

Just how many Thais have condos etc... in Pattaya? A darned lot.....

Just how many foreign tourists descend upon Pattaya just because it is part of their package tour?

There is no way that 80% of the tourists that go to Pattaya, are there for the prostitution.

Even if the govt clamped down on prostitution in Pattaya it would not destroy the place in the long run. It would just attract a lot more 'proper' tourists instead.

Just how many Thai/Foreign families refrain from taking thier kids to Pattaya for fun because they dont want them to witness hundreds of foreigners sat on bar stools and being touched up by bargirls??

Can you remember Patpong? Once upon a time that was the seediest joint that you would ever take your family.

10 years back, i remember expats prophecising that Patpong's days were numbered because restaurants/bookstores/nice live music bars were moving in. They said Patpong would die if the commercialism continued - they were wrong. Now, the place is half respectable for even kids!

The same would and shall happen to Pattaya.

Sometimes when I have a hard day or have pain where I never had pain before because I am getting old I wonder if I have made the right decision to move to Thailand.

Sometimes I wonder at the trite conversations I have with my Thai friends and think I am getting shallow.

I am amazed that monks tell my Thai lady what numbers to play in the lottery.

This is an amazing country where the vast majority of violence against women is carried out at home by Thai men against Thai women.

This is a country that is seething with violent Thai men upset by the education (female college graduates far exceed male college graduates) and earning power and independence of Thai women.

Talk to a bar girl and befriend her. Get to know her and ask her if she is safer and happier working in a bar or at home with a Thai boyfriend in Issan. Listen to what she says and don’t take my word for it.

Try running a bar or business that is dominated by female employees. After a while in the same place women all get on the same cycle. That means all of your employees are PMSing at the same time.

You think it is easy?

Some want to fill the hotels of Pattaya with proper tourists.

Proper tourists!

Bars have given Thai women the same thing that family courts have given women in the West.

They have given them a way out of abusive relationships and a chance at independence.

[Lacoste]

Hi there Simon, Im sorry if i sounded like i was 'having a go' at you, i can promise you i was not. I just found your post to be of a strange attitude for a man who has done what you have done.

I have always respected your honesty on this forum in all your threads, you wear your heart on your sleeve and are rightly so a proud man.

The post i was refering to is here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...st&p=815190

However i did actualy mis quote you and for this i apologise again, you actualy said 'removed' and not 'recovered'. In the context of the thread there probably is actually a significant difference in the two meanings.

Cheers and all the best to you and the family.

Lacoste.

[kat]

1. I think I get your point about equals. So lets talk equals. Singapore, Costa Rica and Brazil. You will hear them compared at any bar in Bangkok on any given day. All three have major industries of adult entertainment very much like Thailand.

2. I think you really feel that bar girls or bar guys are exploited people.

I think a lot of people on this thread think the bar owners are exploiting them.

You compare the experience to poor black people or countries under dictatorial rule.

That point of view on this thread is supported by people who have little experience with bar persons or people in the bar business.

Bar owners are compared morally to drug dealers or worse.

People on this thread who are bar owners or have experience with bar persons do not support the view that bar persons are exploited.

I guess there are two points of view about the people who know bar persons. The first is that they are more informed than people who don’t know bar persons. The second is that they can’t see the forest for the trees or are prejudiced by their lack of morals.

3. As higher paying jobs become available outside the bar industry there will be less of a bar industry. The only way to get higher paying jobs is foreign investment. Or the Thais could open up new sources of revenue like taxing the bar persons but then they would have to admit they exist. Thais are ostrich conservatives. As long as they can’t see it is not happening.

Foreign investors are snubbing Thailand because of restrictive legislation and shoddy and incomplete infrastructure and lack of incentives.

Foreign investors are going to China and India. India being the new home of child prostitution since Thailand stopped most of it, has little to do with investment incentives.

If you want to increase the standard of living of poor Thai people the place to start is with ethnocentric politicians, liberalize banking opportunities, land ownership, tax laws, and internal investment opportunities.

4. Your point of view comes from a moral high ground and mine from an economic background and a life working with minimum wage employees.

When I was a kid I lived in a town in Texas with a reputation for hookers and we had a large amount of local brothels. A number of oil companies moved into the town and built a deep water port and refineries and all of sudden the lowest paying job in town was $18 dollars an hour.

Everyone got a new job and a new pick up truck and the brothels closed for a couple of month till they could bring ladies from Mexico to fill the newly vacant spots.

We didn’t get rid of prostitution but at least it wasn’t Texas women anymore.

5. The same thing will happen to Thailand if it experiences economic growth. The ladies will be brought in from somewhere but at least they won’t be Thai ladies and that will probably make traveling with a Thai passport easier.

1. The only other international sex market to rival Thailand's in scale is Brazil. In fact, it was even reported that after the tsunami and other natural diasters in Asia, Brazil saw an upsurge in sex tourism due to a diversion from Thailand.

2. My outlook about bar people and prostitutes is far more complicated than that. I am in no way trying to villify farang bar owners to the exclusion of everything else. I think there are greater forces here that contribute far more to prevelant prostitution. However, I think it is an unavoidable fact that a large number of foreigners jump on the wagon to exploit a ready-made and available situation.

I compared your RATIONALE to the rationalizations of others who try to excuse, deny, or comply with poor or bad social conditions with "because that's the way it is."

I am not comparing bar owners to drug dealers. If you are going to respond to me, then try to focus on what I'm saying, Kerry. I don't have a blanket assumption about bar owners. I think people are complicated and unique individuals, filled with contradictions. I think good people do bad things, and vice versa. I think the bad may not even be completely bad, and good deeds may not be completely good, and other such permutations. I am not on a moral highorse about foreign bar owners. However, I do believe in calling things as they are, regardless.

Do not make assumptions about my experience. You have no idea what it may be, or what it may entail.

3. I mostly agree with these points. However, before you see higher paying jobs, you will need a reformed labor sector, with better laws, rights, and enforcements. You will also need a more skilled labor force. This takes discipline and education. If you have the low-skilled but highly lucrative and rapidly expanding path of commercial sex work, economic relationship transactions, and marital prostitution, this undercuts and supersedes other pathways to development.

4. I have no moral highground, excpet to call a spade a spade. Again, do not make assumptions about viewpoint, experience, or background.

5. Actually, women and children are already being brought into Thailand from Yunnan, Burma, and Laos. Prostitution is still thriving in both tiers: the slave-like conditions of human trafficking and illegal migrant sex work, and the "illegal" but lucrative trade of prostitution of Thai women with Thai identity cards.

[Lacoste]

Let me say this directly to Leftcross and Lacoste, you appear to be the most adamant on the pimp label in this entire thread.

The minute you ever paid any money for sex in Thailand you guys crossed over a line that you cannot suddenly step back over and pretend you are squeaky clean anymore.

I don't care if you are married now with kids and a model lifestyle, at some point in time you arrived in Thailand and you probably went with prostitutes.

"Folks that live in Glass houses should not throw stones"

FYI, I was already married to my wife when i arrived in Thailand, If you have read my other posts you will know that she was living in New York and I in London when we met.

Don't presume we all came here as sex tourists.

[simon43]

Hi Lacoste - no problems! I thought my memory was going bad if I had forgotten such an important statement!

What I meant by that statement was that if our relationship was going to be successful and longterm, then I needed to 'wean' her out of the bar-scene, little by little. Pay her to stay at home and it's likely that she would give in and return to her old haunts.

So I bought her a tourist bar and made her manager. She wasn't allowed to sit with any customers, (except friends that I trusted!). But she was the boss of all staff etc. So there was a good 'face' aspect here.

The idea worked very well. When we moved from BKK to Phuket last year, the final link with Nana Plaza was broken. So we agreed to close the bar as well.

I was careful never to isolate her from her friends. A number of them work for us here in Phuket and we visit BKK every few months. We go and see past friends in Nana Plaza from time to time.

It was an expensive process, (think millions of baht!!). But I believe that I made the right decision to stick with her - and her with me

Anyway, this is all OT. As to this thread subject matter, nearly all of my daily friends are Issan Thai, not 'farang'. So I get most exposure to their view on working girls. Since this trade has been around since the dawn of time, there is little point trying to change it when adults are involved.

Simon

[Thaipwriter]

Let me say this directly to Leftcross and Lacoste, you appear to be the most adamant on the pimp label in this entire thread.

The minute you ever paid any money for sex in Thailand you guys crossed over a line that you cannot suddenly step back over and pretend you are squeaky clean anymore.

I don't care if you are married now with kids and a model lifestyle, at some point in time you arrived in Thailand and you probably went with prostitutes.

"Folks that live in Glass houses should not throw stones"

FYI, I was already married to my wife when i arrived in Thailand, If you have read my other posts you will know that she was living in New York and I in London when we met.

Don't presume we all came here as sex tourists.

I didn't.

[kat]

It does sound like you did the right thing Simon, and I respect your viewpoint and your experience. You sound like a very sensitive person.

However, I take issue with one aspect of your comments, which are widespread here. Comparing a woman who views sex as a paying job with one who views it as pleasure and companionship are two different things, and two different cultures. So, the attitude of viewing a woman's personal decisions regarding her sexuality as "free sex" is largely from the perspective that the sole purpose of female bodies and sexuality is to buy or sell.

And to Cool_guy_Cory: cool post dude

[dog412]

the openness of the thai bar scene prevents exactly the "pimp" definition that many posters are trying to place upon bar owners. those posters equating barfines with immoral behavior, seem to me, to just be against sex for money. mai bpen rai.

[kat]

Sometimes when I have a hard day or have pain where I never had pain before because I am getting old I wonder if I have made the right decision to move to Thailand.

Sometimes I wonder at the trite conversations I have with my Thai friends and think I am getting shallow.

I am amazed that monks tell my Thai lady what numbers to play in the lottery.

This is an amazing country where the vast majority of violence against women is carried out at home by Thai men against Thai women.

This is a country that is seething with violent Thai men upset by the education (female college graduates far exceed male college graduates) and earning power and independence of Thai women.

Talk to a bar girl and befriend her. Get to know her and ask her if she is safer and happier working in a bar or at home with a Thai boyfriend in Issan. Listen to what she says and don’t take my word for it.

Try running a bar or business that is dominated by female employees. After a while in the same place women all get on the same cycle. That means all of your employees are PMSing at the same time.

You think it is easy?

Some want to fill the hotels of Pattaya with proper tourists.

Proper tourists!

Bars have given Thai women the same thing that family courts have given women in the West.

They have given them a way out of abusive relationships and a chance at independence.

KerryK, you're Mark45, right? I could be completely wrong, but I don't think I am. I always liked that poster, even though we most likely had completely different points of view and values. I don't beleive in absolutes, especially in people, but I do need to pursue or understand the truth.

You are right about some Thai men who are upset by the education and independence of Thai women. However, don't you find it ironic that the independence of prostitution of which we speak here is simply a higher and better paying form of dependence on foreign men and customers? Since when is that a guarantee of non-abuse?

Here is another irony: you compare prostitution to foreign courts, but it is precisely the lack of legal frameworks here for women that have pushed many of them into sex work. And most women that end up in bar girl work are not formally educated, and are more concerned with finding a foreign husband than getting a university degree as a means to advancement.

[kerryk]

1. I think I get your point about equals. So lets talk equals. Singapore, Costa Rica and Brazil. You will hear them compared at any bar in Bangkok on any given day. All three have major industries of adult entertainment very much like Thailand.

2. I think you really feel that bar girls or bar guys are exploited people.

I think a lot of people on this thread think the bar owners are exploiting them.

You compare the experience to poor black people or countries under dictatorial rule.

That point of view on this thread is supported by people who have little experience with bar persons or people in the bar business.

Bar owners are compared morally to drug dealers or worse.

People on this thread who are bar owners or have experience with bar persons do not support the view that bar persons are exploited.

I guess there are two points of view about the people who know bar persons. The first is that they are more informed than people who don’t know bar persons. The second is that they can’t see the forest for the trees or are prejudiced by their lack of morals.

3. As higher paying jobs become available outside the bar industry there will be less of a bar industry. The only way to get higher paying jobs is foreign investment. Or the Thais could open up new sources of revenue like taxing the bar persons but then they would have to admit they exist. Thais are ostrich conservatives. As long as they can’t see it is not happening.

Foreign investors are snubbing Thailand because of restrictive legislation and shoddy and incomplete infrastructure and lack of incentives.

Foreign investors are going to China and India. India being the new home of child prostitution since Thailand stopped most of it, has little to do with investment incentives.

If you want to increase the standard of living of poor Thai people the place to start is with ethnocentric politicians, liberalize banking opportunities, land ownership, tax laws, and internal investment opportunities.

4. Your point of view comes from a moral high ground and mine from an economic background and a life working with minimum wage employees.

When I was a kid I lived in a town in Texas with a reputation for hookers and we had a large amount of local brothels. A number of oil companies moved into the town and built a deep water port and refineries and all of sudden the lowest paying job in town was $18 dollars an hour.

Everyone got a new job and a new pick up truck and the brothels closed for a couple of month till they could bring ladies from Mexico to fill the newly vacant spots.

We didn’t get rid of prostitution but at least it wasn’t Texas women anymore.

5. The same thing will happen to Thailand if it experiences economic growth. The ladies will be brought in from somewhere but at least they won’t be Thai ladies and that will probably make traveling with a Thai passport easier.

1. The only other international sex market to rival Thailand's in scale is Brazil. In fact, it was even reported that after the tsunami and other natural diasters in Asia, Brazil saw an upsurge in sex tourism due to a diversion from Thailand.

2. My outlook about bar people and prostitutes is far more complicated than that. I am in no way trying to villify farang bar owners to the exclusion of everything else. I think there are greater forces here that contribute far more to prevelant prostitution. However, I think it is an unavoidable fact that a large number of foreigners jump on the wagon to exploit a ready-made and available situation.

I compared your RATIONALE to the rationalizations of others who try to excuse, deny, or comply with poor or bad social conditions with "because that's the way it is."

I am not comparing bar owners to drug dealers. If you are going to respond to me, then try to focus on what I'm saying, Kerry. I don't have a blanket assumption about bar owners. I think people are complicated and unique individuals, filled with contradictions. I think good people do bad things, and vice versa. I think the bad may not even be completely bad, and good deeds may not be completely good, and other such permutations. I am not on a moral highorse about foreign bar owners. However, I do believe in calling things as they are, regardless.

Do not make assumptions about my experience. You have no idea what it may be, or what it may entail.

3. I mostly agree with these points. However, before you see higher paying jobs, you will need a reformed labor sector, with better laws, rights, and enforcements. You will also need a more skilled labor force. This takes discipline and education. If you have the low-skilled but highly lucrative and rapidly expanding path of commercial sex work, economic relationship transactions, and marital prostitution, this undercuts and supersedes other pathways to development.

4. I have no moral highground, excpet to call a spade a spade. Again, do not make assumptions about viewpoint, experience, or background.

5. Actually, women and children are already being brought into Thailand from Yunnan, Burma, and Laos. Prostitution is still thriving in both tiers: the slave-like conditions of human trafficking and illegal migrant sex work, and the "illegal" but lucrative trade of prostitution of Thai women with Thai identity cards.

I will try and take it one at a time. Singapore and Costa Rica do rival Thailand. Costa Rica is seasonal however. If you want to go to Singapore to check it out let me know and I will give you a list. To get an equivalent experience to Thailand does involve some travel outside Singapore and is hit or miss unless you have an insiders knowledge of the changing market.

As far as the large number of foreigners, Thai males make up over 80% of the market for prostitution in Thailand. The foreigners are a rather small part.

Thai workers don’t need protective legislation or any reformed labor laws or any training. Thailand needs basic industries such as oil refining, steel production and basic manufacturing and assembly operations. These operations are leaving the US and Europe for offshore locations but they are not coming to Thailand.

After introduction of basic industries maybe it would be in order to consider advanced industries and education.

It is very simple it is not rocket science. Currently Laos produces the only drinkable beer available in Thailand for a reasonable price. Think about it.

There is a sugar shortage in Thailand. What? Does sugar cane not grow here?

If you want to buy a toilet here it is made in the US.

Walk through your apartment and look at the basics. They are all coming from somewhere else.

You assert that women are being brought in from Yunnan, Laos and Burma and forced into prostitution.

I have heard of this in Thai houses of prostitution that a Western man or woman would not be allowed in.

I have heard of this but not seen it.

I have met women from Burma and Laos in Thailand working in Bangkok and very happy to be out of Burma and Laos.

Edited July 24, 2006 by kerryk

[mittheimp]

Bars have given Thai women the same thing that family courts have given women in the West.

They have given them a way out of abusive relationships and a chance at a decent life without fear of being abused mentally and physically.

yes lets all hail the beer bars where women can work without fear of being abused mentally and physically!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you really see this vision of utopia when you walk around pattaya or Soi Cowboy?????? or is this a genuinely good wind up?

[lannarebirth]

Bars have given Thai women the same thing that family courts have given women in the West.

They have given them a way out of abusive relationships and a chance at a decent life without fear of being abused mentally and physically.

yes lets all hail the beer bars where women can work without fear of being abused mentally and physically!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you really see this vision of utopia when you walk around pattaya or Soi Cowboy?????? or is this a genuinely good wind up?

mittheimp,

You have to bear in mind that those are the opinions of a man who admits he'd pimp out his mother, sister and daughter if the price is right.

[Greer]

I think the original poster and many of the people replying have missed the point completely, but I am glad to see that keryk has added some sanity to the argument.

The one point that was very definitely missed was that the bar fine has nothing whatsoever to do with the girls having sex with the customer - it is simply a repayment of the girls salary for the time that she takes off work.

The bar has no control over her behaviour outside the bar, and she can do whatever, or whoever, she wants. If she then charges the guy, then the prostitution is her own doing, and nothing to do with the bar. The bars are not charging for this, the bar is taking money OUT of the girls salary if she declines to work. As she does not want to lose money, the bar asks that the one who is taking her away from her job pays for the time she is away - thats all - no pimping involved.

I know girls in many bars, and have paid their bar fines so that we can all go out to dinner, often with their husbands or boyfriends who also happen to be friends of mine - so is that pimping? I don't think so!

[kerryk]

Sometimes when I have a hard day or have pain where I never had pain before because I am getting old I wonder if I have made the right decision to move to Thailand.

Sometimes I wonder at the trite conversations I have with my Thai friends and think I am getting shallow.

I am amazed that monks tell my Thai lady what numbers to play in the lottery.

This is an amazing country where the vast majority of violence against women is carried out at home by Thai men against Thai women.

This is a country that is seething with violent Thai men upset by the education (female college graduates far exceed male college graduates) and earning power and independence of Thai women.

Talk to a bar girl and befriend her. Get to know her and ask her if she is safer and happier working in a bar or at home with a Thai boyfriend in Issan. Listen to what she says and don’t take my word for it.

Try running a bar or business that is dominated by female employees. After a while in the same place women all get on the same cycle. That means all of your employees are PMSing at the same time.

You think it is easy?

Some want to fill the hotels of Pattaya with proper tourists.

Proper tourists!

Bars have given Thai women the same thing that family courts have given women in the West.

They have given them a way out of abusive relationships and a chance at independence.

KerryK, you're Mark45, right? I could be completely wrong, but I don't think I am. I always liked that poster, even though we most likely had completely different points of view and values. I don't beleive in absolutes, especially in people, but I do need to pursue or understand the truth.

You are right about some Thai men who are upset by the education and independence of Thai women. However, don't you find it ironic that the independence of prostitution of which we speak here is simply a higher and better paying form of dependence on foreign men and customers? Since when is that a guarantee of non-abuse?

Here is another irony: you compare prostitution to foreign courts, but it is precisely the lack of legal frameworks here for women that have pushed many of them into sex work. And most women that end up in bar girl work are not formally educated, and are more concerned with finding a foreign husband than getting a university degree as a means to advancement.

No, sorry wish I was 45 again. I would find in ironic if the Thai prostitutes gained nothing from prostitution. And I think that is the case for 80% of Thai prostitutes who cater to a local market.

However the Thai prostitutes who cater to the foreign market which are a small percent of the total are for the most part there to find a husband or accumulate enough wealth to start a business.

Success for them is not in prostitution but in getting out of prostitution and into something else.

I don’t see it as much different than a college education.

One goes to school to earn a degree and make more money than people who don’t go to school.

School is not fun and requires work and doing things one would not like to do and postponing immediate gratification for a future good. The bar girls and bar guys are doing the same thing.

Although I am sure this would be debated by those who don’t realize this has been common practice since the dawn of man.

Laws against prostitution for the most part are rather recent. It seems our ancestors didn’t have the hang-ups that we do.

[mittheimp]

I think the original poster and many of the people replying have missed the point completely, but I am glad to see that keryk has added some sanity to the argument.

The one point that was very definitely missed was that the bar fine has nothing whatsoever to do with the girls having sex with the customer - it is simply a repayment of the girls salary for the time that she takes off work.

The bar has no control over her behaviour outside the bar, and she can do whatever, or whoever, she wants. If she then charges the guy, then the prostitution is her own doing, and nothing to do with the bar. The bars are not charging for this, the bar is taking money OUT of the girls salary if she declines to work. As she does not want to lose money, the bar asks that the one who is taking her away from her job pays for the time she is away - thats all - no pimping involved.

I know girls in many bars, and have paid their bar fines so that we can all go out to dinner, often with their husbands or boyfriends who also happen to be friends of mine - so is that pimping? I don't think so!

so why are bar fines considerably higher than a nights salary?

[Kerryd]

And I've paid a h3ll of a lot of bar fines over the years. I have no problem admitting that. And guess what ? Some of the girls I bar fined were prostitutes !

Another shocker ! Some of the girls I bar fined were NOT prostitutes !

And NOT one of them was forced into working as a prostitute. And NOT one of them was forced to work in a bar/club that charges barfines. And EVERY one of them is free to leave when ever she wants. And NOT one of them is obligated to have sex with a customer, even if the customer pays her bar fine.

How do you know the above? Is this a line of questioning you go about with during your seedy outings?

You can try to dress the seedy lifestyle up as you like, but the fact is the guy charching barfines is a pimp.

Cant change the fact no matter how you try to make it sound.

I guess you'll never accept reality, no matter how plain and simple it is. You've made up your mind about what is and isn't right, and all the proof in the world isn't going to change your mind.

"Seedy lifestyle" ? Ooooo, I'm hurt !

Remind me to wear a hat and long raincoat the next time I go downtown. Oh wait, they only do that in Western "civilised" cities, in those scummy peep show/spank shops and dirty alleys where drug-addicted hookers with various diseases lurk.

So much better than places like Pattaya.

Like I mentioned previously, my knowledge comes directly from the people involved.

In fact yes, I do talk to various girls I've been with. Ever tried that, talk to the person you are with ?

I'm also friends with a number of them. And I've gone with a couple of them as they scouted out new places to work. And I've gone to see them in their new clubs when they have decided to switch. And I've talked to the owners/managers of the bars they left.

(in fact tonight I went to a certain club downtown and had a chat with one of the waitresses. She had worked at a different club but switched recently to a new place. She told me why and sex had nothing to do with it !!! Bar fines had nothing to do with it. Feeling exploited had nothing to do with it.

I did have a snicker though. I asked her is she was happy in her new club. She's not. It's smaller, has fewer customers and the Thai owners/management aren't as nice as the farang staff at her previous workplace.)

Last night I spoke to the owner and the manager of a different club. I mentioned running into a couple of their former employees that are now working elsewhere. Apparently these girls didn't like their new (Thai owned) place (not the same club mentioned above) and they wanted to come back to the "farang" owned club.)

I've also seen girls refuse to go "boom-boom" guys after their barfine has been paid. (In fact, there was a news story about a case like that not too long ago. Guy paid the girl's bar fine and thought that meant she should go back to his hotel and have sex with him and 4 of his buddies, for no extra money. Their holiday was cut short when the BiB were called in.)

And I think I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, that I've barfined girls and taken them out to dinner, movies and other activities (like going to Ripleys, or visiting friends) and never had sex with them !!!

Some "holier-than-thou" types obviously find it hard to believe a man might actually want to talk to a woman, or spend time with one, without sex being involved.

Some prefer to look down their noses at people they consider "beneath" them.

As for the amount of the barfine. I had it explained by a Thai (female) manager once (in 2005 actually). Everyday a girl misses work, she is docked a days pay. But if she pays the fine (or someone else pays it for her), she doesn't get docked and gets a slice of the fine.

So, day's wage + cut for the girl = bar fine.

But wait ! That's not all ! According to my friend, the barfine is also meant to compensate the bar for the loss in sales (of booze) that the bar might have made, had the girl worked her normal shift.

For example. Noi works at "Bar Lek". Cute girl and good at getting customers to sit in the bar and buy drinks (which is where the bar makes the VAST majority of it's profits). Problem is, Noi is too cute. Customers keep taking her out of the bar for various reasons.

As a result, there aren't as many customers in the bar buying drinks, meaning less profit.

Manager raises the bar fine, resulting in slightly fewer customers bar-fining Noi, who is therefore in the bar more, attracting more customers.

When a customer does pay the higher barfine, Noi gets a slice, part covers her wages for that shift, and the leftover helps to make up lost profits as a result of Noi's absence.

So, Day's Wage + Girl's Cut + Small Profit = Bar Fine.

Remember, this is directly from the Thai female bar manager (and the bar itself is owned by a Thai woman). This may not be how it is done at every bar, but that's how their bars (3 of them in fact) are managed.

Still don't see any reference to "bar fine = sex".

[kat]

I will try and take it one at a time. Singapore and Costa Rica do rival Thailand. Costa Rica is seasonal however. If you want to go to Singapore to check it out let me know and I will give you a list. To get an equivalent experience to Thailand does involve some travel outside Singapore and is hit or miss unless you have an insiders knowledge of the changing market.

As far as the large number of foreigners, Thai males make up over 80% of the market for prostitution in Thailand. The foreigners are a rather small part.

Thai workers don’t need protective legislation or any reformed labor laws or any training. Thailand needs basic industries such as oil refining, steel production and basic manufacturing and assembly operations. These operations are leaving the US and Europe for offshore locations but they are not coming to Thailand.

After introduction of basic industries maybe it would be in order to consider advanced industries and education.

It is very simple it is not rocket science. Currently Laos produces the only drinkable beer available in Thailand for a reasonable price. Think about it.

There is a sugar shortage in Thailand. What? Does sugar cane not grow here?

If you want to buy a toilet here it is made in the US.

Walk through your apartment and look at the basics. They are all coming from somewhere else.

You assert that women are being brought in from Yunnan, Laos and Burma and forced into prostitution.

I have heard of this in Thai houses of prostitution that a Western man or woman would not be allowed in.

I have heard of this but not seen it.

I have met women from Burma and Laos in Thailand working in Bangkok and very happy to be out of Burma and Laos.

Kerry, there are other rival international sex markets, but none as big or pervasive as Thailand and Brazil. And about Singapore - where are the majority of these women from? The majority are shipped in form elsewhere.

As for introducing better-paying industries: as I said previously, without a reformation of labor laws and compensation, Thai labor standards will continue to be underpaid, dangerous, and highly exploitative, and that won't change a thing.

And yes, the forced and most oppressive conditons for female sex workers are in the majority Asian-only massage parlors and brothels which specialize in underaged and trafficked women from Yunnan, Burma, and Laos. So, your assertion that things have gotten better is not true. They've merely found a cheaper substitute, as did the foreign consumers in a way.

[mittheimp]

Sometimes when I have a hard day or have pain where I never had pain before because I am getting old I wonder if I have made the right decision to move to Thailand.

Sometimes I wonder at the trite conversations I have with my Thai friends and think I am getting shallow.

I am amazed that monks tell my Thai lady what numbers to play in the lottery.

This is an amazing country where the vast majority of violence against women is carried out at home by Thai men against Thai women.

This is a country that is seething with violent Thai men upset by the education (female college graduates far exceed male college graduates) and earning power and independence of Thai women.

Talk to a bar girl and befriend her. Get to know her and ask her if she is safer and happier working in a bar or at home with a Thai boyfriend in Issan. Listen to what she says and don’t take my word for it.

Try running a bar or business that is dominated by female employees. After a while in the same place women all get on the same cycle. That means all of your employees are PMSing at the same time.

You think it is easy?

Some want to fill the hotels of Pattaya with proper tourists.

Proper tourists!

Bars have given Thai women the same thing that family courts have given women in the West.

They have given them a way out of abusive relationships and a chance at independence.

KerryK, you're Mark45, right? I could be completely wrong, but I don't think I am. I always liked that poster, even though we most likely had completely different points of view and values. I don't beleive in absolutes, especially in people, but I do need to pursue or understand the truth.

You are right about some Thai men who are upset by the education and independence of Thai women. However, don't you find it ironic that the independence of prostitution of which we speak here is simply a higher and better paying form of dependence on foreign men and customers? Since when is that a guarantee of non-abuse?

Here is another irony: you compare prostitution to foreign courts, but it is precisely the lack of legal frameworks here for women that have pushed many of them into sex work. And most women that end up in bar girl work are not formally educated, and are more concerned with finding a foreign husband than getting a university degree as a means to advancement.

No, sorry wish I was 45 again. I would find in ironic if the Thai prostitutes gained nothing from prostitution. And I think that is the case for 80% of Thai prostitutes who cater to a local market.

However the Thai prostitutes who cater to the foreign market which are a small percent of the total are for the most part there to find a husband or accumulate enough wealth to start a business.

Success for them is not in prostitution but in getting out of prostitution and into something else.

I don’t see it as much different than a college education.

One goes to school to earn a degree and make more money than people who don’t go to school.

School is not fun and requires work and doing things one would not like to do and postponing immediate gratification for a future good. The bar girls and bar guys are doing the same thing.

Although I am sure this would be debated by those who don’t realize this has been common practice since the dawn of man.

Laws against prostitution for the most part are rather recent. It seems our ancestors didn’t have the hang-ups that we do.

laws against slavery, racial discrimination, and even rape are also rather recent - and these practices have also been common since the dawn of time. Perhaps 'hang-ups' are not necessarily negative - some might even call it progress!

[Kerryd]

I think the original poster and many of the people replying have missed the point completely, but I am glad to see that keryk has added some sanity to the argument.

Are you referring to the original "kerryd", or the late comer "kerryk" or both ?

Must be de udder guy, as I find sanity to be rather boring !

[kat]

I don’t see it as much different than a college education.

One goes to school to earn a degree and make more money than people who don’t go to school.

School is not fun and requires work and doing things one would not like to do and postponing immediate gratification for a future good. The bar girls and bar guys are doing the same thing.

Although I am sure this would be debated by those who don’t realize this has been common practice since the dawn of man.

Laws against prostitution for the most part are rather recent. It seems our ancestors didn’t have the hang-ups that we do.

No, sorry, it is a completely different thing. Please re-read my points about development and dependence - that is exactly what I was talking about. I don't think I need to repeat it.

hmnm, you think laws are reflective of hang-ups that our ancestors didn't have? Good laws and enforcement are also necessary for a healthy, functioning civil society. Our ancestors also saw no harm in marrying off or selling girl children to adult men before their first periods. Do you think the regulation of this practice is a hang-up? Of course not, so don't resort to specious arguments.

[kerryk]

Response to mittheimp.

No it is not a wind up. Nor do I pick up girls at bars. I prefer Tops grocery store. I know there are lots of guys who like the “hello handsome man” thing but I am not one of them. I like the “watermelon fresh today” thing.

From what I have seen and heard I think the bar girls suffer much less abuse than the average Thai woman at home in Issan.

I have no statistics on that. I can only relate what my friends tell me. I could regale you with stories of the past month and how many bruises I have seen but that may just be an anomaly and not a universal experience.

I appreciate the comments on my pimping our relatives but lets consider it realistically.

Imagine yourself as a subsistence farmer making just enough to eat without medical care or any real future for your family. A person comes along and gives you more money than you and your father and your father’s father have made in a life time. The only condition is your approval of a relationship that your daughter wants anyway. If you say yes your family will be cared for in a reasonable manner for at least two generations and if they invest wisely for ten generations. Would you not be a fool to say no?

Edited July 24, 2006 by kerryk

[kerryk]

I don’t see it as much different than a college education.

One goes to school to earn a degree and make more money than people who don’t go to school.

School is not fun and requires work and doing things one would not like to do and postponing immediate gratification for a future good. The bar girls and bar guys are doing the same thing.

Although I am sure this would be debated by those who don’t realize this has been common practice since the dawn of man.

Laws against prostitution for the most part are rather recent. It seems our ancestors didn’t have the hang-ups that we do.

No, sorry, it is a completely different thing. Please re-read my points about development and dependence - that is exactly what I was talking about. I don't think I need to repeat it.

hmnm, you think laws are reflective of hang-ups that our ancestors didn't have? Good laws and enforcement are also necessary for a healthy, functioning civil society. Our ancestors also saw no harm in marrying off or selling girl children to adult men before their first periods. Do you think the regulation of this practice is a hang-up? Of course not, so don't resort to specious arguments.

As I understand what you said about development and dependence, you seem to think that without education or skill advancement there is no progress.

That may be true of self help books or personal self image but the fact of the matter is that one who acquires real estate or cash and invests it wisely will make a lot of money.

If I take a dead dumb person with a 6th grade education and give that person property and if he or she has a lick of sense they will hold what is valuable and sell what is not.

It does not take skill or education to realize the basic facts of economics.

If two years ago if I gave a bar girl $10,000 worth of gold today it would be worth $20,000.

If two years ago if I bought a bar for a Thai bar girl and she managed it efficiently (well within the capacity of the experienced but uneducated bar girl) she would have a lot of money.

I find Thai women are frugal for the most part and invest their profits in either gold or real estate. Both of these investments have stood the test of time and are sources of wealth.

The bar girl or guy may have been dependant at first but after a short period of time she or he has achieved independence.

Very few Farang are willing to go through the tedious process of establishing Thai companies and most buy everything in the Thai bar girl or guys name.

Your other question about laws deserves an answer. But please accept my apology for not discussing issues that are inappropriate for discussion.

[mittheimp]

OK, there comes a time when you have to agree to differ. It's been an interesting thread, particularly when people have stayed on topic and made sensible and constructive contributions. I for one am not anti the sex trade per-se as i realise that it will exist in its current form until a) other career opportunities for rural women are much further developed, b ) The Thai economy is not so disadvantaged over the West, and c) the notion that good Thai women remain virgins until their wedding day disappears.

I believe that the reality of the bar scene is not the rosy picture presented by some on this forum as an avenue of women's liberation - nor do I believe all women are exploited in a horrendous and callous manner - it must be some where between the two.

Yes I'm sure there are bar owners who actually look after the girls in their employment in a creditable and worthy way - and I'm sure there are those that don't (farang as well as Thai) - To the latter - the argument that this is how it is in Thailand, always has been and always will be doesn't work - not ethically.

Edited July 24, 2006 by mittheimp

[kerryk]

Sometimes when I have a hard day or have pain where I never had pain before because I am getting old I wonder if I have made the right decision to move to Thailand.

Sometimes I wonder at the trite conversations I have with my Thai friends and think I am getting shallow.

I am amazed that monks tell my Thai lady what numbers to play in the lottery.

This is an amazing country where the vast majority of violence against women is carried out at home by Thai men against Thai women.

This is a country that is seething with violent Thai men upset by the education (female college graduates far exceed male college graduates) and earning power and independence of Thai women.

Talk to a bar girl and befriend her. Get to know her and ask her if she is safer and happier working in a bar or at home with a Thai boyfriend in Issan. Listen to what she says and don’t take my word for it.

Try running a bar or business that is dominated by female employees. After a while in the same place women all get on the same cycle. That means all of your employees are PMSing at the same time.

You think it is easy?

Some want to fill the hotels of Pattaya with proper tourists.

Proper tourists!

Bars have given Thai women the same thing that family courts have given women in the West.

They have given them a way out of abusive relationships and a chance at independence.

KerryK, you're Mark45, right? I could be completely wrong, but I don't think I am. I always liked that poster, even though we most likely had completely different points of view and values. I don't beleive in absolutes, especially in people, but I do need to pursue or understand the truth.

You are right about some Thai men who are upset by the education and independence of Thai women. However, don't you find it ironic that the independence of prostitution of which we speak here is simply a higher and better paying form of dependence on foreign men and customers? Since when is that a guarantee of non-abuse?

Here is another irony: you compare prostitution to foreign courts, but it is precisely the lack of legal frameworks here for women that have pushed many of them into sex work. And most women that end up in bar girl work are not formally educated, and are more concerned with finding a foreign husband than getting a university degree as a means to advancement.

No, sorry wish I was 45 again. I would find in ironic if the Thai prostitutes gained nothing from prostitution. And I think that is the case for 80% of Thai prostitutes who cater to a local market.

However the Thai prostitutes who cater to the foreign market which are a small percent of the total are for the most part there to find a husband or accumulate enough wealth to start a business.

Success for them is not in prostitution but in getting out of prostitution and into something else.

I don’t see it as much different than a college education.

One goes to school to earn a degree and make more money than people who don’t go to school.

School is not fun and requires work and doing things one would not like to do and postponing immediate gratification for a future good. The bar girls and bar guys are doing the same thing.

Although I am sure this would be debated by those who don’t realize this has been common practice since the dawn of man.

Laws against prostitution for the most part are rather recent. It seems our ancestors didn’t have the hang-ups that we do.

laws against slavery, racial discrimination, and even rape are also rather recent - and these practices have also been common since the dawn of time. Perhaps 'hang-ups' are not necessarily negative - some might even call it progress!

I honestly don’t think selling sex is the same thing as slavery and rape. Maybe it is. But I can’t seem to put them in the same category.

If I am in control of my person I should be able to do with my person whatever the heck I want to do with my person.

I think that is freedom.

[meom]

I believe that the reality of the bar scene is not the rosy picture presented by some on this forum as an avenue of women's liberation - nor do I believe all women are exploited in a horrendous and callous manner - it must be some where between the two.

Besides the (easy?) money a lot of women in the trade get addicted to the control they have over men. Isn't that one of the cornerstones of women's liberation?

[mittheimp]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=76504&st=0

Do you think the girls that worked in his bar thanked their lucky stars for the emancipation they have been given?

[Mossfinn]

Respect to you Simon.

Not only in the way you managed the situation with your wife but with your resonses on this thread.

Moss

[kat]

From what I have seen and heard I think the bar girls suffer much less abuse than the average Thai woman at home in Issan. ...

Imagine yourself as a subsistence farmer making just enough to eat without medical care or any real future for your family. A person comes along and gives you more money than you and your father and your father’s father have made in a life time. The only condition is your approval of a relationship that your daughter wants anyway. If you say yes your family will be cared for in a reasonable manner for at least two generations and if they invest wisely for ten generations. Would you not be a fool to say no?

Actually the Thai bar girls are usually abused long before they step foot in the bar.

As I understand what you said about development and dependence, you seem to think that without education or skill advancement there is no progress.

That may be true of self help books or personal self image but the fact of the matter is that one who acquires real estate or cash and invests it wisely will make a lot of money.

If I take a dead dumb person with a 6th grade education and give that person property and if he or she has a lick of sense they will hold what is valuable and sell what is not.

It does not take skill or education to realize the basic facts of economics.

If two years ago if I gave a bar girl $10,000 worth of gold today it would be worth $20,000.

If two years ago if I bought a bar for a Thai bar girl and she managed it efficiently (well within the capacity of the experienced but uneducated bar girl) she would have a lot of money.

I find Thai women are frugal for the most part and invest their profits in either gold or real estate. Both of these investments have stood the test of time and are sources of wealth.

The bar girl or guy may have been dependant at first but after a short period of time she or he has achieved independence.

Very few Farang are willing to go through the tedious process of establishing Thai companies and most buy everything in the Thai bar girl or guys name.

Your other question about laws deserves an answer. But please accept my apology for not discussing issues that are inappropriate for discussion.

Yes, but we are still talking about development in purely economic terms. In the last decade there has been rapid economic development in the villages of Issan through remittances, with very little corresponding skill development. As a result, there has been no real progress or transition form a dependent form of income to a skill-based one. In fact, prostitution is starting to resemble a formal job sector. This means that it is not a foothold for the first generation or subsistence farmer as you suggest, but is now a main pathway for second and third generations.

If you don't see the impact this has on long range development mechanisms of the country, and don't understand why this is important in lieu of this very long discussion, then it's pointless to go further.

I bid you a good night.

[meom]

To Mittheim

I don't understand the reference.

Anyway it seems to me that a lot of women in the trade don't particular enjoy the sex portion of their work but get hooked on the control they get to exert over men.

Sex is usually a 3-10 minute affair but leading the man on etc. etc has a lot to do with who is in control and unlike men that start to think with their di2k BG's often keep on using their head and are in control.

Edited July 24, 2006 by meom

[kerryk]

OK, there comes a time when you have to agree to differ. It's been an interesting thread, particularly when people have stayed on topic and made sensible and constructive contributions. I for one am not anti the sex trade per-se as i realise that it will exist in its current form until a) other career opportunities for rural women are much further developed, b ) The Thai economy is not so disadvantaged over the West, and c) the notion that good Thai women remain virgins until their wedding day disappears.

I believe that the reality of the bar scene is not the rosy picture presented by some on this forum as an avenue of women's liberation - nor do I believe all women are exploited in a horrendous and callous manner - it must be some where between the two.

Yes I'm sure there are bar owners who actually look after the girls in their employment in a creditable and worthy way - and I'm sure there are those that don't (farang as well as Thai) - To the latter - the argument that this is how it is in Thailand, always has been and always will be doesn't work - not ethically.

You are right it is somewhere in between.

A young woman came to me once out of a failed abusive marriage. Her husband beat her up repeatedly and raped her in a most heinous manner.

Her father had allowed her child to be abused and her mother was too frightened to help her. (yes the cops were informed and did nothing)

I gave her a job and the job involved sex. She made a lot of money. We are not talking a small amount of money but a large amount of money even by Western standards. She was beauty queen material and with a personality to match.

But it didn’t end well. There are pitfalls in the pay for play business and she stepped in all of the holes.

In two years she pissed away over $200.000 dollars, not baht.

Was it my fault? Could I have done something different?

I don’t know. I was trying to help and I put up with her ways (not dependable, not honest, not reliable) for a two years.

I have a lot of better stories of success but this one sticks in my craw.

I offered to marry her but she did not want that she wanted a job and independence. I offered education but she wanted cash.

That is the way it works sometimes.