Sex Tourism

[kerryk]

From what I have seen and heard I think the bar girls suffer much less abuse than the average Thai woman at home in Issan. ...

Imagine yourself as a subsistence farmer making just enough to eat without medical care or any real future for your family. A person comes along and gives you more money than you and your father and your father’s father have made in a life time. The only condition is your approval of a relationship that your daughter wants anyway. If you say yes your family will be cared for in a reasonable manner for at least two generations and if they invest wisely for ten generations. Would you not be a fool to say no?

Actually the Thai bar girls are usually abused long before they step foot in the bar.

As I understand what you said about development and dependence, you seem to think that without education or skill advancement there is no progress.

That may be true of self help books or personal self image but the fact of the matter is that one who acquires real estate or cash and invests it wisely will make a lot of money.

If I take a dead dumb person with a 6th grade education and give that person property and if he or she has a lick of sense they will hold what is valuable and sell what is not.

It does not take skill or education to realize the basic facts of economics.

If two years ago if I gave a bar girl $10,000 worth of gold today it would be worth $20,000.

If two years ago if I bought a bar for a Thai bar girl and she managed it efficiently (well within the capacity of the experienced but uneducated bar girl) she would have a lot of money.

I find Thai women are frugal for the most part and invest their profits in either gold or real estate. Both of these investments have stood the test of time and are sources of wealth.

The bar girl or guy may have been dependant at first but after a short period of time she or he has achieved independence.

Very few Farang are willing to go through the tedious process of establishing Thai companies and most buy everything in the Thai bar girl or guys name.

Your other question about laws deserves an answer. But please accept my apology for not discussing issues that are inappropriate for discussion.

Yes, but we are still talking about development in purely economic terms. In the last decade there has been rapid economic development in the villages of Issan through remittances, with very little corresponding skill development. As a result, there has been no real progress or transition form a dependent form of income to a skill-based one. In fact, prostitution is starting to resemble a formal job sector. This means that it is not a foothold for the first generation or subsistence farmer as you suggest, but is now a main pathway for second and third generations.

If you don't see the impact this has on long range development mechanisms of the country, and don't understand why this is important in lieu of this very long discussion, then it's pointless to go further.

I bid you a good night.

Bar girls abused before they set foot in the bar? No more so than any other Thai female. Abuse by fathers and male siblings if fairly well documented in Thailand.

There is no real development without real capital expenditure.

It takes millions in hard cash to build a factory. Skill has little to do with it.

I understand what you are saying but you are a step ahead of the process.

First you need basic industry. Basic industry turns raw materials into products. It takes no skill it takes labor and capital.

After and only after the basic industry is established can you progress into the area you are talking about.

Prostitution may well be the savior of Thailand.

If enough well off Farang move to Issan it may generate a service boom that will fund the industrial sector.

Even if it only funds the service sector that only will help the economy and eventually raise wages and eliminate prostitution.

[PeaceBlondie]

My oh my, what a long, strange trip it's been for my morality. At age 26, I was a Baptist minister, with a wife and kids, about as pure as the driven snow can be in a polluted city. I blessed the young boys as they went off to war in Southeast Asia, where they probably visited whore houses and killed Southeast Asians by the thousands (with a little help from their friends) or abused alcohol and drugs.

I mention morality because that's what this is all about, whether it's moral to be a pimp, a prostitute, or a customer in a brothel, whether it's moral to abuse females (or males). And I'm spending my old age on internet forums, especially condemning the actions of the old White men who think it's Christian to kill innocent noncombatants in war zones.

Oh, and this is about the morality of sexuality. What a long, strange trip it's been for sexuality, since Victorian times. We admit to things now, such as mastubation and having sex outside of marriage, and renting bodies for sex, that we wouldn't have mentioned a few decades ago.

Is there still a right and wrong? Yes, but it's fuzzier than we thought.

Is it wrong for consenting adults to have sex, with or without money? The playing field is uneven. Farang man with money, young Thai adult without money. I've heard that barber shops in Thailand have notebooks full of photos of students (M3-M6, ages 15 to 18) that you can rent for sex, male or female. Domestic violence, human trafficking, etc. - to an extent that's unheard of in most western countries, although prostitution and pimping and making a small commission off of it does go on in every country.

Yes, it's worthwhile to know what's right, and to do it. But wars kill far more innocents than pimps do.

[OZONE]

the guy charching barfines is a pimp.

Cant change the fact no matter how you try to make it sound.

You cannot run a business where your employees demand instant leave of absence from the workplace at the employers expense.

The barfine plays no part in any transaction that occurs between punter and girl/lady/boy.

It is merely to compensate the employer for loss of his salaried employees during working hours.

Let me say this directly to Leftcross and Lacoste, you appear to be the most adamant on the pimp label in this entire thread.

The minute you ever paid any money for sex in Thailand you guys crossed over a line that you cannot suddenly step back over and pretend you are squeaky clean anymore.

I don't care if you are married now with kids and a model lifestyle, at some point in time you arrived in Thailand and you probably went with prostitutes.

Most males reading and contributing to this thread would have to admit this.

"Folks that live in Glass houses should not throw stones"

BULL PUCKY! Lived in Thailand for over 15 years and NEVER touched or paid for a prostitute. That's a silly thing to say.

[JRingo]

Agents and job brokers

I spend about 3 months of the year in the north and the rest in USA.

My first wife had 9 brothers and sisters, so you can imagine I have a lot of nephews

and nieces. When I divorced her 20 years ago I never divorced the family but sorta

adopted them.

I have been an active part of their lives in their little village close to Doi Angkhang.

I have paid and offered to pay for anyone who wanted to go to school and have tried

really hard to keep them all out of the sex trade. I have had some success, as I have

nieces now in highschool.

A job broker/agent came to our village while I was away and offered my nephew

Don (age 18) a job down South. Not only would the agent guarantee him a good

paying job but he would even advance the parents some money, 10,000 baht.

He would also insure that Don was given a decent place to live, food to eat, clothes

to wear, necessary healthcare and would be treated fairly.

The job was at a tourist restaurant in Hat Yai.

He could leave anytime he wanted if he didn’t like it, but of course had to repay the

10,000 baht first.

Well somewhere between Doi Angkhang and Hat Yai, the job changed from restaurant

to massage parlor. But, on the bright side, he would be making much more money.

So okay, off they go.

Now the little farm boy gets eased into the massage business and long story short learns

about giving “happy ending” massages to gay tourists.

Now what can he do? He is not gay and this is all sort of perverted way to live.

He wants out, and wants to come home, but …he has to find a way to repay the advance

given his parents (10,000 baht).

How do I know this? Well even though I am considered family, I am not that much family

to know these things, but I have a confidant in my favorite niece, Dons’ cousin.

So anyway, Don comes to me with a story about needing 10,000 baht because he

wants to change jobs. He has a piece of land that he is willing to sell me for 10,000

baht…blah blah blah…

So anyway, he was essentially in bondage, he couldn’t leave without causing his parents

a great deal of financial hardship.

And this is how many farm boys and girls find themselves in bondage in the sex trade.

And no, they are not about to tell you about it.

[britmaveric]

Bondage??? Uh most leave/come as they wish mate - prob are some in situations as you describe, but majority do as they please - hop bar to bar - work, go home - move different cities ect.

[JRingo]

Bondage??? Uh most leave/come as they wish mate - prob are some in situations as you describe, but majority do as they please - hop bar to bar - work, go home - move different cities ect.

So what percentage are probably in this situation? And how can you tell them apart?

And does it even matter to you if your sex partner is in bondage?

[britmaveric]

Bondage??? Uh most leave/come as they wish mate - prob are some in situations as you describe, but majority do as they please - hop bar to bar - work, go home - move different cities ect.

So what percentage are probably in this situation? And how can you tell them apart?

And does it even matter to you if your sex partner is in bondage?

The % is small, I'd say - prob more so in Thai to Thai sex industry where most of the really sketchy stuff happens.

I have a gf mate, (mind you she certainly has me in bondage ) but I know quite a few ladies by just drinking in bars and let me assure you they are there on their own accord and simply put the dosh is too good compared to working elsewhere. It comes down economics: work a job for 4-6K a month or work in a bar where you can make that in a few days if you are good.

[JRingo]

Bondage??? Uh most leave/come as they wish mate - prob are some in situations as you describe, but majority do as they please - hop bar to bar - work, go home - move different cities ect.

So what percentage are probably in this situation? And how can you tell them apart?

And does it even matter to you if your sex partner is in bondage?

The % is small, I'd say - prob more so in Thai to Thai sex industry where most of the really sketchy stuff happens.

I have a gf mate, (mind you she certainly has me in bondage ) but I know quite a few ladies by just drinking in bars and let me assure you they are there on their own accord and simply put the dosh is too good compared to working elsewhere. It comes down economics: work a job for 4-6K a month or work in a bar where you can make that in a few days if you are good.

So your answer is, you don't know and you don't care.

[britmaveric]

My answer is why don't you talk to many ladies over a few drinks - you might learn a few things instead of painting things with a broad brush.

[Mighty Mouse]

My answer is why don't you talk to many ladies over a few drinks - you might learn a few things instead of painting things with a broad brush.

Very true.

I have yet to meet a bar worker who was forced into bar work, yet whilst drinking in bars I have met many underaged kids forced into selling flowers/chewing gum.

What are the moral crusaders doing about protecting them?

[JRingo]

My answer is why don't you talk to many ladies over a few drinks - you might learn a few things instead of painting things with a broad brush.

Haha...I have talked to a few thousand bargirls over a swimming pool of drinks!

I have been married to 4 Thai girls, three of them bargirls.

I'm not painting anything with a broadbrush...

I'm saying you can't tell if a bargirl is in bondage or not.

...and if she is, it is rotten that Mr. White sex tourist still wants to have sex with her for $20.

...and rotten that Mr. Falang barowner keeps her in bondage.

...and rotten that she has to have sex without condoms, if that is how the customer insists.

...and rotten that she could be abused, screwed and dead before she reaches 30.

[JRingo]

My answer is why don't you talk to many ladies over a few drinks - you might learn a few things instead of painting things with a broad brush.

Haha...I have talked to a few thousand bargirls over a swimming pool of drinks!

I have been married to 4 Thai girls, three of them bargirls.

I'm not painting anything with a broadbrush...

I'm saying you can't tell if a bargirl is in bondage or not.

...and if she is, it is rotten that Mr. White sex tourist still wants to have sex with her for $20.

...and rotten that Mr. Falang barowner keeps her in bondage.

...and rotten that she has to have sex without condoms, if that is how the customer insists.

...and rotten that she could be abused, screwed and dead before she reaches 30.

And no, they are not about to tell you about it.

[britmaveric]

One thing I have learned about these ladies - they do love to tell you everything that is going on in their lives. In fact its hard to keep their gob shut once you've got them started.

[chuchok]

My answer is why don't you talk to many ladies over a few drinks - you might learn a few things instead of painting things with a broad brush.

Very true.

I have yet to meet a bar worker who was forced into bar work, yet whilst drinking in bars I have met many underaged kids forced into selling flowers/chewing gum.

What are the moral crusaders doing about protecting them?

bloody right!

How about the wee Burmese kids selling flowers in CM?These kids have very little chance and people tend to brush over them.They much prefer talking about a "poor little bar girl"

[JRingo]

One thing I have learned about these ladies - they do love to tell you everything that is going on in their lives. In fact its hard to keep their gob shut once you've got them started.

They are not going to tell you what is going on in their private family life.

My ex-wife of 25 years still doesn't confide in me even though we remain friends and I support

her family.

Family matters are quite private in Thailand.

...and deals with job brokers are kept close to home.

Bar owners have their own dirty secrets and are not about to share them with you.

Make no doubt about it, the sex industry is a dirty business.

And the situation is not as pure and simple and wholesome as the sex purveyors in Thailand

want you to believe.

[JRingo]

A bar in Pattaya -- The night before a new girl came -- very young -- niece of bar boss wife --- lottery held in the bar -- fifty bt a ticket -- Six drew tickets out of hat with a number on -- Girl came about six pm and looked very young and was brought down to the bar where farange number one put bar fine on bar and took her upstairs -- he had to pay 5000bt as she had never been with a man -- she had to be stripped and held by her aunt -- that night she had to service five more men -- Good or no good

Actually she probably had worked up north for a year or so before being sold as "boreesoot" virgin in

Pattaya. And....she was probably toted off to another bar the next night where the same scene

repeated. And...it was probably not the niece of bar boss wife..they always say that, to make

the sex tourist feel more comfortable and at ease.

Lovely business.

and...of course she didn't have to do it.....she could have left.

and...she was a "pleasant business woman"

[JimsKnight]

Bondage??? Uh most leave/come as they wish mate - prob are some in situations as you describe, but majority do as they please - hop bar to bar - work, go home - move different cities ect.

So what percentage are probably in this situation? And how can you tell them apart?

And does it even matter to you if your sex partner is in bondage?

The % is small, I'd say - prob more so in Thai to Thai sex industry where most of the really sketchy stuff happens.

I have a gf mate, (mind you she certainly has me in bondage ) but I know quite a few ladies by just drinking in bars and let me assure you they are there on their own accord and simply put the dosh is too good compared to working elsewhere. It comes down economics: work a job for 4-6K a month or work in a bar where you can make that in a few days if you are good.

Agreed and not to say that the previous poster was being roped in but isn't it a bit sinister how it always seems to be down to a falang to assume the good samaritan persona and bailing out these poor kids. Has anyone ever heard of thais doing a similar thing when learned of?

And to dig deeper, say a thai knew of a decent falang having the concept honour and helping out others... Would it not be really conniving to make a falang 'believe' that a pseudo loan had been paid and that 'somchai' was a sex slave in Pattaya/BKK/Hua Hin etc and needed 10,000 baht.

I garantee that this is happening (sometimes).

[JRingo]

Actually she recieved no money she was only fifteen and she had to have medical attention but no charges as her aunt had connections!!!!!

and how do you know this is true?

...it is a bit outrageous of a story, but could have happened.

I have heard of young bargirls being sold a number of times as virgins on their first trip down

from up North.

Apparently, Chinese men believe that to have sex with a virgin adds years to their own life.

Just heard rumours though.

[JimsKnight]

A bar in Pattaya -- The night before a new girl came -- very young -- niece of bar boss wife --- lottery held in the bar -- fifty bt a ticket -- Six drew tickets out of hat with a number on -- Girl came about six pm and looked very young and was brought down to the bar where farange number one put bar fine on bar and took her upstairs -- he had to pay 5000bt as she had never been with a man -- she had to be stripped and held by her aunt -- that night she had to service five more men -- Good or no good

Good or no good! Are serious man or just taking the piss!

If you're serious then those guys are fcking rapists and need shooting, the bar needs naming and shaming and the 'family members' ought to be locked up. If you were there you need to report the place to the Boys in Brown.

And before anybody says the've got XXXXX money, police won't do sht and they have connections just remember this, all it takes is for every decent falang to shun the place before it feels the pain!

If your not serious then its not a very nice bar is it!

[wilko]

Somehow falang bar owners justify collecting the "bar fine".

In America this is known as pimping and is not only looked down upon but is illegal.

Anyone else have a problem with this?

Seems kind of rotten to take advantage of someones misfortune to make money.

The girls obviously do it because they were born poor with few opportunities.

Shouldn't falangs set a better example and not exploit them?

JRingo...can I clear one thing up?

As I understand it, you are perfectly happy to go with one of these girl and support the industry that way, and it's simply the bar fine you don't approve of, or a least the part of the bar-fine that the girl doesn't get, and only those bar fines raised by farang?

I have not gone out with a bar girl in close to 15 years now.

In my opinion, falang bar owners who collect barfines are nothing more than pimps.

They give falangs a bad name.

So barfines are OK so long as a Thai collects them and it's OK to support the trade by going with the women...it's merely how farang REPUATION that worries you. Why?

[wilko]

Aren’t we into semantics here?

Pimp is a bad word......we all knows what it means and if you earn from the girls you are one...QED....

However the word comes with a cultural loading, that the OP is obviously aware of, and has used it deliberately to antagonise other posters.

<deleted> is a bad word.....however its literal meaning is not, it’s just the way we use it in western culture.....

The way prostitution works in most western societies is seedy and exploitative, in Thailand this is much less so due to its taciturn acceptance over such a long period of time. Drugs and “pimps” do not have such high-profile roles to play here and the girls are freer to come and go as they please. So is actually being a pimp here such a bad thing?

Just as waving your foot about in Australia doesn’t offend anyone as it would here; so should accepting 50 to 75% of a bar-fine be so offensive here especially when it is an accepted practice and carried out in the business before the farang bought it. (Why only farangs?)

Are we not - or at least is the OP - just trying to impose our western morality on a country that many of us live in because it DOESN’T have our banal western moralities?

[Gary A]

This happens to be 2006 and NOT 1986. Things have changed and after reading these threads I still can't understand why so many insist on telling bullshit sex slave stories, AIDS stories and Farang bar owners are pimps stories. The sex slaves certainly did exist but the brothel owners were NOT farangs. Most of the AIDS cases came from dirty needles and anal sex. If anything farang bar owners are at the mercy of their girls. No girls, no customers. It's a catch 22 for sure. No customers, no girls and no girls no customers. The desireable top bar girls demand top wages and get top wages. If a farang bar owner mistreats one of the girls she will be working in the bar next door the next day. The farangs I know are quite protective of the new girls and I know first hand of customers getting the sh!t beat out of them for abusing the new girls. Some of the Thai bar owners try to operate the same as in the old days but the threats no longer work. The girls are much more savvy and simply won't put up with it. There are too many farang bar owners who pay better and threat them better.

For those of you who are not allowed to go to the bars, try to sneak out and make a round of the Pattaya farang bars and see first hand how things REALLY work. Don't worry, we won't tell your wives or your bible study group.

[Sing_Sling]

I will try and take it one at a time. Singapore and Costa Rica do rival Thailand. Costa Rica is seasonal however. If you want to go to Singapore to check it out let me know and I will give you a list. To get an equivalent experience to Thailand does involve some travel outside Singapore and is hit or miss unless you have an insiders knowledge of the changing market.

Kerry, now you are simply being absurd and I wonder if you have actually ever been to Singapore. I have lived here for 6 years and know of two places - both sanctioned/tolerated by the police. The first one is the very obvious Four Floors on Orchard and the second is Geylang where it is strictly controlled by the police. (of course there are also massage places, but to equate these with Brazil . . . whacky bakky, I'd say)

The prostitutes are Thai and are given visas for just this purpose. I don''t know the numbers but it certainly does not rival anything that even one spot in Thailand can show. Geylang is a suburb with restaurants, shops etc . . .

As for your comment:

To get an equivalent experience to Thailand does involve some travel outside Singapore and is hit or miss unless you have an insiders knowledge of the changing market.

Are you implying that Singapore has a hinterland? In case you were not aware of this; Singapore is a tiny island with zero hinterland. It is a city/state, by definition there is nothing but city.

Added to this it is a police state with virtually no crime, so I doubt your knowledge of any perceived 'dens of iniquity' actually exists. Your list is undoubtedly total nonsense.

Why is it that the Philippines misses out on your triumvirate of the flesh trade? Singapore? Perhaps you should make your list public and save all these sex-starved Singaporeans the hassle of flying to Bangkok or taking the ferry to Indonesia.

Singapore Hahahha

Edited July 25, 2006 by Sing_Sling

[meadish_sweetball]

Most of the AIDS cases came from dirty needles and anal sex.

Got any stats on that?

Last year, I was on a tour around villages in the Chiang Mai vicinity together with an NGO that helps orphans due to AIDS, and in all 7 families I visited, they were orphans to mothers working as prostitutes who had contracted HIV and subsequently died of AIDS. The children were 3 to 11 years old.

[Gary A]

I did a quick surf and copied the below. I lost that link but there are hundreds of similar links;

HIV prevalence is unacceptably high in several groups including injecting drug users (IDUs), men who have sex with men, mobile populations, and among seafarers. Among injecting drug users, HIV prevalence was high at 33% in 2003 . Also, as many as half of new HIV infections each year are happening within marriage or regular relationships where condom use tends to be very low (Thai Working Group on HIV/AIDS Projections, 2001).

The South is the only region where HIV prevalence among pregnant women has been increasing recently. In the Lower South, HIV prevalence among pregnant women has doubled between 2000 and 2002, from 1 to 2 percent. HIV-infection levels of at least 2 percent were recorded in eight provinces in 2002 (including Satun in the lower South) and ranged well past the 3.5 percent mark in Nakhon Sri Thammarat and Phuket provinces.

Despite successes, Thailand’s AIDS crisis is expected to continue to grow as the large number of PLWHA who were infected during the past 10 years or earlier will develop AIDS in the coming years. According to projections for the next five years, nearly 50,000 new AIDS cases will occur in Thailand every year.

According to UNIFEM, almost one third of adults living with HIV/AIDS in Thailand are women, and a large proportion of them are women who would otherwise appear to be at very low risk of HIV infection. As many as half of new adult infections in Thailand are now occurring among women, most of whom are infected by their husbands or boyfriends. Violence is one of many factors that put women at greater risk of HIV infection. A study in 2000 found that more than 40 percent of Thai women surveyed had been physically and/or sexually abused by a partner. Condom use is almost non-existent in such incidents, and the threat of violence often prevents women from negotiating safe sex. Another risk factor is the customary male expectation that women remain sexually “innocent” and, therefore, also “ignorant” of sexual knowledge (which, by implication, includes knowledge about preventing HIV infection).

Patterns of commercial sex too have changed. There has been a huge increase in the number of ‘indirect’ sex service establishments, such as massage parlours (from about 8000 in 1998 to 12,200 in 2003). In Bangkok alone, an estimated 34,000 women were trading sex in such non-brothel settings in 2003. Regulating these forms of sex work using the approach of the 100% Condom Programme is difficult. Thailand has been widely hailed as one of the success stories in the response to AIDS. By 2003, estimated national adult HIV prevalence had dropped to its lowest level ever, approximately 1.5% (UNAIDS, 2004).

Most of the AIDS cases came from dirty needles and anal sex.

Got any stats on that?

Last year, I was on a tour around villages in the Chiang Mai vicinity together with an NGO that helps orphans due to AIDS, and in all 7 families I visited, they were orphans to mothers working as prostitutes who had contracted HIV and subsequently died of AIDS. The children were 3 to 11 years old.

[Maejo Man]

The prostitutes are Thai and are given visas for just this purpose. I don''t know the numbers but it certainly does not rival anything that even one spot in Thailand can show. Geylang is a suburb with restaurants, shops etc . . .

Thai in Singapore 'beat pimp to death'

Singapore (dpa) - A Thai worker was so upset that a pimp refused to let him have sex with a prostitute that he allegedly clubbed his fellow Thai national to death with a hammer, news reports said on Tuesday.

Prosecutors claimed the 41-year-old Singngoi Somsak killed Jongtakhu Choochai last October and fled during the first day of the murder trial in Singapore, The Straits Times said. The seven-day trial was scheduled to resume on Tuesday.

Singngoi was arrested the following day when he arranged to get his passport from his employer.

The 35-year-old victim was a pimp for three Thai prostitutes, said Deputy Public Prosecutor Shahla Iqbal. Jongtakhu and the women stayed in makeshift huts in the forested areas near the worker's dormitory.

On October 15, Singngoi was having drinks with Jongtakhu, the three women and two other foreign workers, the prosecutor said.

One of the women sidled up to Singngoi, but Jongtakhu would not let her have sex with him.

Singngoi went back to his room and emerged with a hammer, allegedly hitting Jongtakhu on the head several times, the court heard.

Police found a hammer thrown outside the dormitory compound, but could not find anyone's DNA on it.

[sabaijai]

I've merged the 'Sex Slaves' and 'Pimps' threads--essentially about the same topic--into a single thread re-titled 'Sex Tourism'.

Note to JRingo: Please refrain from starting multiple threads on what is essentially the same topic/moral campaign.

[Heng]

If there is any mental anguish, then I think this will be on the farang partner of an ex bar-girl. Us westerners find it very hard to accept that a woman will go with a man for money. (If your GF had 10 boyfriends prior to you then that's ok, but if she had 10 paying customers then that is hard to accept).

IMO/IME (vicariously of course) this is wishful thinking. I deal with ex-prostitutes -usually in their 30's-40's-50's and up- in collateral/property transactions quite frequently and for the most part they are a jittery bunch, you can see an extreme lack of confidence in the way they talk and walk (especially when they have interactions with folks that have what they sometimes refer to as "good" or "normal family" lives) and there's almost always an underlying anger/bitterness (the closest thing I can descibe it as is the feeling some homeless veterans in the US exude -that we interviewed as part of high school papers-).

Sure, 10 boyfriends or customers sounds quite light, because we're just talking about principle right? A lot of these gals, certainly for the more attractive younger ones and almost certainly for the average older ones, you're looking at 1,000's customers/boyfriends as the norm (this is going to produce abnormal psychological effects no matter what culture you're in). All the same right, since we're just talking about principle?

[lannarebirth]

A bar in Pattaya -- The night before a new girl came -- very young -- niece of bar boss wife --- lottery held in the bar -- fifty bt a ticket -- Six drew tickets out of hat with a number on -- Girl came about six pm and looked very young and was brought down to the bar where farange number one put bar fine on bar and took her upstairs -- he had to pay 5000bt as she had never been with a man -- she had to be stripped and held by her aunt -- that night she had to service five more men -- Good or no good

Good or no good! Are serious man or just taking the piss!

If you're serious then those guys are fcking rapists and need shooting, the bar needs naming and shaming and the 'family members' ought to be locked up. If you were there you need to report the place to the Boys in Brown.

And before anybody says the've got XXXXX money, police won't do sht and they have connections just remember this, all it takes is for every decent falang to shun the place before it feels the pain!

If your not serious then its not a very nice bar is it!

Decent falang already shun places like that. Pull your head out of the sand. That shit goes on everywhere here.

[RamdomChances]

Jesus, you read this thread and get the impresion that outside of the "civilised" area's the women are some sort of comodity, controled by drunken, abusive, gambling fathers/husbands, well let me paint you a different picture. (obviously my perceptions are based on the area that I live and while it appears that here on the central plain is relitivly more wealthy than say some parts of Issarn I can"t belive it's that special. I live work and socialise with mainly thai farmers and speak pretty fluent thai)...anyway.

The vast majority of thai female children here are idolised by their parents and brought up in and extramly "coddled" enviroment, most of the fathers I know have simular expectations for their daughters as do people in the west, they want them to go to univircity, graduate, get a good job or settle down and get married, having your kids graduate uni is very much a source of pride for most families.

Drinking/gambling. Oddly I probably drink more than nearly any of the farmers I know, who mainly work their own farms and hold down some other sort of job as well, be it simple labouring, contracting out their own tractors, electrition, mechanic ect, mainly they just dont have the time to drink or cant afford to miss a days work with a hangover. Strangley gambling seems much more prevelent with the women, although does'nt happen all the time, funerals being and exception and national hoildays where often the men will sit around drinking/eating all day and some of the men/women play cards.

Abuse. In my 6-7 years living "out in the sticks" I've only ever heard one case of a man beating his wife, it was prety universily condemed even though she was having an affair and she did hit him with a wok first, strangly I've heard of numerus occasions of the wife beating the husband. Sex abuse well it's not really one of those things you hear about until you read it in the papers, you could cite stories but have a read of the papers back home and I'm sure you will find a simular thing

Thai sex industry. Well I'm by no means an expert but have been out to the local town with thai and falang friends on a few occasions, the local town used to have a US airforce contingent and apparently previously it had a lot of "girly" type bars, although the Americans have gone it still retains quite a few and has a reputation for that sort of thing in the area. Anyway I've never seen any indication that anyone was forced to work in them and they are mainly much lower key that the typical BKK/pattaya bar scens, mainly having some sort of karyoky as well, a lot of the Thais just go to them for a night out , drinks, singing, having a laugh without nesseseraly indulging in sex although it is avalible, as to having bar fines/cost I could'nt tell you as I've never goten that far, not that I'm some sort of angel but it's very close to home and being the only falang for about 50 km radious the news would probably be home before me

Women going to work in the sex industry. Well it's never something thats said outright, you have to read between the lines a lot, but I've never heard or whitnessed any family pressurising their daughter to do it. The ones I do know who have gone are a pretty mixed bunch really, older (30's) women divorced with a kid who's chances of finding a new husband are practicaly nil, younger girls looking to get out of the cosseted existance imposed on them by their families or who just want that new mobile, nice clother some gold ect, one instance I know pretty well is a police captians wife, he's on good money does'nt drink smoke or gamble, two kid's anyway her sister was working in Phuket, came back with tales of it being "paved with gold" so the other sister left her husband, she ended up married to a falang in UK, but has subsiquantly traded husbands up I think she's on her third now.

I have no doubt that horror stories exist, they do back home as well. I have no doubt that many girls working in the trade come from abusive relationships, I also have no doubt that many say that they come from abusive relationships, after all someone ask's you why you are doing this type of work, what are you going to say " well I wanted a new mobile phone"? "I'm too lazy to get a proper job"? "well it beats picking rice for 150 bhat a day" or "my huband he no good" "he butterfly" "he hit me"

A mate of mine used to have a bar in Phuket, the bar fine was 200 bhat (I have no idea what it is now) this was split with the girl, if she worked for the bar, freelances got to keep it. The money left over helped to pay for the girls room/rice compensate for her not being there and the odd bottle of whiskey ect to share amongst themselfs. I had the impresion that that was fairly common practice.

Obviously all the above are just based in my own personel experiances here, I can't back them up with any of the dubious stats that are avalible off the net, but neither do I walk around with rose tinted glasses

RC

Edited July 25, 2006 by RamdomChances