China and Thailand seek cooperation on High Speed Rail project

[webfact]

China and Thailand seek cooperation on High Speed Rail project

KHON KAEN, 15 October 2014 (NNT) — A group of delegates from China is holding discussions with related agencies in Thailand's north-eastern provinces to investigate the possibility of cooperation on a High Speed Rail project.

The Chinese Ambassador to Thailand Ning Fukui, Deputy Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of Transport, Chartchai Tipsunave, and the Khon Kaen Governor Kamchorn Thavornsatit today held a forum on the possibility of cooperation in the High Speed Rail construction project, along with government officials from Thailand and China at the Centara Hotel and Convention Center, Khon Kean.

The Chinese ambassador said that the forum aims to gather information on the economic development of the north-eastern region of Thailand as well as to study the possibility of cooperation with Thailand on the High Speed Rail construction, and hear comments on trade, and investment projects in the region.

The rail project will benefit the region and Thailand generally in tourism, logistics, and expositions. More tourists from China would visit Thailand, said the Chinese ambassador.

In addition to Khon Kaen, China will discuss with Udon Thani and Nong Khai provinces, the possible construction of a railway connecting China and Thailand that will run through these provinces. The railway will improve transportation capabilities, and will eventually bring in much more money from the growth of tourism, commerce, and investment.


-- NNT 2014-10-15

[nong38]

Will there be a branch to Pattaya?

[BSJ]

My question is will Thai eyes be dazzled by the presentation or will it resort to the old method of exchanging brown envelopes for promises.

It's a crazy idea for a 3rd world country to be contemplating.

[trainman34014]

Another useless junket. The only thing that will be decided upon will be the next meeting date when more food and fine wine will be consumed.......NEXT !

[halloween]

China seems very keen on this project, and makes pie-in-the-sky predictions of return on investment. Why?

BTW logistics?

BTW2 did they say anything about the lunch boxes?

[RubbaJohnny]

Is T money Cha Kwai or is that pork buffalo I till get my ChinThaiglish confused.

I bet it'll need a big envelope

[ExPratt]

WON"T HAPPEN

[Robby nz]

As long as China is prepared to pay for it in full and will pick up the tab for maintenance any losses in the next 10 years.

That includes paying for but not owning the land under the HSR, as in: the Chinese buy it from the present owners with the deeds transferred to the Thai Govt which will then charge the Chinese rent for the use of the land.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

As long as China is prepared to pay for it in full and will pick up the tab for maintenance any losses in the next 10 years.

That includes paying for but not owning the land under the HSR, as in: the Chinese buy it from the present owners with the deeds transferred to the Thai Govt which will then charge the Chinese rent for the use of the land.

You would think it would be design , build and operate

I guarantee you it will not happen

[burgdawg]

...am in agreement with ExPratt: kon Tai like their lives the way they are. They will not tolerate the Chinese pushiness.

Take their development money? Sure thing! Build the rail line? No way Jose. Not in our lifetimes.

High Speed rail will require softer high speed curves, which means purchasing new land adjacent to existing rail right-of way.

Many, many bridges to be built. No way will the Chinese allow this rail to be interrupted by a wandering water buffalo or drunk Somchai passed out on rail in his soon-to-be repossessed diesel pickup truck. Elevated track is expensive.

At least India and Thailand have dedicated rail rights of way. Improving the rail itself to CWR(continuous welded rail) and new rolling stock remains to be seen.

[nong38]

Will one rail be built to metre guage and one rail to standard guage to keep everyone happy, one asks. Heaven forbid they start one end in China and one end in Thailand and hope to meet somewhere in the middle! The mind plays games with this one.

There are better run preserved railways in the UK than SRT and those preserved railways are run by volunteers.

[nong38]

Is that ambassador's name real............Ning Fukui? Could be a good project name though.

[ChrisY1]

There'll be a lot of money changing hands.....and nothing ever completed!

And don't even plan a maintenance program!!

[worgeordie]

High speed trains and one of the highest buildings in the world, in Thailand,

no good can come from it,they need about another 10 years to get the slow

speed trains to stay on the tracks.

regards worgeordie

[Tokay]

Unless China builds it, maintains it, and fills it full of people coming to Thailand, it isn't going to happen.

[Burl Ives]

You have to understand how China works on projects like this.

Look at all the projects China finances in Africa: a ship arrives with all the labour, materials, engineers, plant and equipment etc

The project progresses and the local community gets nothing in terms of sales of materials etc. out of it, the Chinese give and take it all.

If however the Japanese would finance it, the Thai community would thrive on these projects, by the Japanese managing and financing the project, but using local labour ,staff and resources.

But of course this will never happen because the Chinese Thai politicians will get greater kick backs from the Chinese, so fait accomplis!

[jackinthebox]

A high-speed train for Thailand is complete rubbish. Why do they want to jump from 1905 to 2015? If they aim so high (ie. 300kph bullet train with enormous expenisve tracks, bridges and tunnels), they will NEVER achieve it. This will only lead to another Hopewell-desaster.

Better modernize your run-down "Bimmelbahn" to an electrified, double-track, standard-gauge train system of european (provincial) level (ie. TER, IC, EC, Rapide) with a max. speed of 150kph so that you could reach an average travel-speed of 110kph. Bangkok-NongKhai or Bangkok-UbonRatchathani in 5-6 hours (instead of 10-11. nowadays) - fast enough. AND your could mix with little effort freight an passenger trains - what is normally not possible on a high-speed railway-system.

[jackinthebox]

deleted post.

Edited October 15, 2014 by jackinthebox

[BudRight]

Let's hope the train would be higher speed than the negotiations. I remember hearing about this in the late '90s.

[BSJ]

It's not a bad thread. The absolute absurdity of the subject matter is laughable. Yes this thread is definitely good for a laugh!

[Bsd]

Better modernize your run-down "Bimmelbahn" to an electrified, double-track, standard-gauge train system of european (provincial) level (ie. TER, IC, EC, Rapide) with a max. speed of 150kph so that you could reach an average travel-speed of 110kph. Bangkok-NongKhai or Bangkok-UbonRatchathani in 5-6 hours (instead of 10-11. nowadays) - fast enough. AND your could mix with little effort freight an passenger trains - what is normally not possible on a high-speed railway-system.

Standard Gauge is not required (yes I know it allows a bit more speed). Japan has 22,000km of narrow gauge railways (basically everything but the Shinkansen) if all you are trying to do is improve regional services for both passengers and freight there is no need to re-gauge and have to replace or rebuild all of the rolling stock (including wagons).

Electrified - Yes

Double Track - Yes

Someone call JR (East/Central/West/...)

[Ulic]

Not all countries are ready for democracy and not all countries are ready for high speed rail.

Not even needed in Thailand. The KISS principle comes to mind,

[rickirs]

A high speed train for Thailand, especially one connecting China with Thailand, has got to be the lowest priority of the current government, even if China fully covers its cost. Except we know that between nations there is never a "free lunch." For example, the Chinese could ask that Thailand make substantial military hardware purchases, allow Chinese ships of war "visit" Thailand ports, etc.

China has already developed an extensive highway and train system for its commercial and industrial needs. It can afford to throw funds after a high speed train. Thailand is far behind China on infrastructure development. Thailand would do better to solicit Chinese investment capital improving Thai highway and train system first.

[ChiangraiTony]

Possibly a One Way High Speed Train into Thailand. That's right... More Chinese being loaded into Thailand. This will not be a two-way street. Watch what happens when those in Thailand want to take the train to China. It will require a lot more Red Tape and more difficult. Why? Because Thailand won't negotiate for that. They are only interested in bringing in Chinese tourist but will be reluctant to have their own going into China. We shall see...

Edited October 16, 2014 by ChiangraiTony

[Publicus]

The vast region that crosses multiple borders from Shanghai to Mumbai sorely needs infrastructure to the tune of a trillion USD value per year for a decade but this aint it.

The "hard energy" Kra Canal project is Beijing's pet for Thailand and for the region but with the current "soft energy" elites in indefinite power and control the canal project remains on the shelf which is where it's been for going on 20 years. Shipping traffic in the Strait of Malacca will have doubled by 2020 from 2000 while already being beyond its maximum of 40 ships entering per hour from either end of it.

Tier 1-3 cities of China that don't already have an international airport are currently getting one which means anyone doing business can fly from SE Asia to anywhere throughout the eastern half of China.

Chinese tourists to Thailand automatically fly and have no interest in taking a Chinese built high speed rapid very slow train down the length of China to Bangkok..Who in Isaan wants all the several years of construction to build a rail system for other people to use that don't ever use it except to flood NE Thailand with their new neighbors from the PRChina.

Let 'em keep wining and dining while exchanging Chinese sized brown envelopes but keep the paper and pens out of the luxury suites while all of the boyz from both sides are together in town.

[tonbridgebrit]

The vast region that crosses multiple borders from Shanghai to Mumbai sorely needs infrastructure to the tune of a trillion USD value per year for a decade but this aint it.

The "hard energy" Kra Canal project is Beijing's pet for Thailand and for the region but with the current "soft energy" elites in indefinite power and control the canal project remains on the shelf which is where it's been for going on 20 years. Shipping traffic in the Strait of Malacca will have doubled by 2020 from 2000 while already being beyond its maximum of 40 ships entering per hour from either end of it.

Tier 1-3 cities of China that don't already have an international airport are currently getting one which means anyone doing business can fly from SE Asia to anywhere throughout the eastern half of China.

Chinese tourists to Thailand automatically fly and have no interest in taking a Chinese built high speed rapid very slow train down the length of China to Bangkok..Who in Isaan wants all the several years of construction to build a rail system for other people to use that don't ever use it except to flood NE Thailand with their new neighbors from the PRChina.

Let 'em keep wining and dining while exchanging Chinese sized brown envelopes but keep the paper and pens out of the luxury suites while all of the boyz from both sides are together in town.

Hello Publicus !

I agree with the comment you made about the canal and the aeroplanes. But the train, is it a waste of money ? And anyway, is it going to be China financing it ?

[tonbridgebrit]

A high speed train for Thailand, especially one connecting China with Thailand, has got to be the lowest priority of the current government, even if China fully covers its cost. Except we know that between nations there is never a "free lunch." For example, the Chinese could ask that Thailand make substantial military hardware purchases, allow Chinese ships of war "visit" Thailand ports, etc.

China has already developed an extensive highway and train system for its commercial and industrial needs. It can afford to throw funds after a high speed train. Thailand is far behind China on infrastructure development. Thailand would do better to solicit Chinese investment capital improving Thai highway and train system first.

There's no free lunch ? The Chinese will probably ask Thailand to purchase a substantial amount of military hardware, and allow Chinese military ships to visit Thailand ?

So, the Chinese are copying the Americans ?

[rametindallas]

China Invests $10 Billion In Russia’s Plan To Upgrade Railway System, Energy

http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/16325/20141014/china-invests-10-billion-in-russia-s-plan-to-upgrade-railway-system-energy.htm

[keemapoot]

Most people in this thread are not aware that this project is also part of the 2nd alternative of Beijing's proposed Maritime Silk Road Project. The Chinese President, Xi Jinping, has been on a road trip around Asia and South Asia recently touting this proposed trade route, and though the favored routing passes through the South China Sea, because of the hot issues and conflicts there and the US opposition, Beijing has given up on that option.

The prior existing option involved Burma, but bridges are burned there and that is a no go. So, China is proposing this railway route as a dual purpose vehicle: both freight and passengers. For that reason, it will not be a truly high speed railway, because of the dual function, which would serve to then onward transport by rail to perhaps the Dawei deep water port and onward by sea from there. China has already built their entire domestic rail network to handle this all the way to the border. They view Thailand as the best option, as Laos is now problematic too, due to the Vietnamese influence and opposition to China over the Spratleys.

In short, China sees Thailand as an important link in this propose alternate route for the Maritime Silk Road. There is much more to this than a simple passenger railway. It also involves a power play for SE Asia with the US as its main opponent.

[northernjohn]

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A high speed train for Thailand, especially one connecting China with Thailand, has got to be the lowest priority of the current government, even if China fully covers its cost. Except we know that between nations there is never a "free lunch." For example, the Chinese could ask that Thailand make substantial military hardware purchases, allow Chinese ships of war "visit" Thailand ports, etc.

China has already developed an extensive highway and train system for its commercial and industrial needs. It can afford to throw funds after a high speed train. Thailand is far behind China on infrastructure development. Thailand would do better to solicit Chinese investment capital improving Thai highway and train system first.

Actually people are forgetting that China approached Thailand when Abhist was in with a proposal to build a high speed rail through Thailand. They want to build a high speed rail from Singapore to Peking. It was to go through in to Laos. The proposal got dropped in the election shuffle. Part of the reason might be do to the fact that it would not come near Chiang Mai. A spur to Chiang Rai was deemed feasible.

At the time Japan and France were also interested in building it. France dropped out of it and Japan stayed in but Thailand wasn't interested. The proposal was to be a dual track away from cities as much as possible with over passes and tunnels where needed.

The whole thing sounds to me like just a part of China's over all plan to link Singapore to Peking. I think it would be a big boost for tourism. But will it happen who knows. Is it a good idea I tend to think so.

Edited October 16, 2014 by northernjohn