Dearth of black managers and decent referees

[jellydog]

Golly, I guess that ends the debate about racism/discrimination in football. Thanks Chiccy !

I would have thought even with your mosquito-like intellect you would know that no coaching badges = no job these days.

Certainly there are lots of black players around now, but perhaps they are happy to take their millions and go and do something less stressful with them.

You are not offering any evidence to support your argument other than the fact that you don't see black managers.

By your standards, the whole of the league is biased against having transexual Chinese people as managers, because you don't see any of them.

Me and my mosquito-like intellect find you more amusing than annoying. Carry on and get a bigger spade.

Yes, the person who has no argument usually gives up eventually.

Ever notice that when there is a debate about racism/discrimination the "There is no discrimination" faction is desperately intent on ending the discussion darn near before it starts ?

BTW, I have alerted Stan Collymore about your heathen tendencies and he will be sending out a battalion of darkies to tickle you to death.

You can thank me later.

[Chicog]

Ever notice that when there is a debate about racism/discrimination the "There is no discrimination" faction is desperately intent on ending the discussion darn near before it starts ?

Excuse me?

I've asked you to provide some simple evidence other than "there aren't any".

You're the one ending the discussion, because you haven't got any.

[Chicog]

Despite the shortfalls in the recruitment processes of many clubs, Notts County striker Jason Lee says black coaches themselves are partly to blame for their plight.

The former Nottingham Forest forward is in the twilight of his career and beginning to take his coaching badges.

"I don't think enough black players are pushing themselves," he told BBC Sport.

"I think more internationals, some of the better players, should be pushing themselves. I don't think enough of them have done the badges and put the time and effort in.

"I'm frustrated with some of my black colleagues who don't give it a real go. It's easy for me to say at the minute, because I haven't applied for these jobs yet and been given knock-backs.

"But if I start to get rejected in favour of people less qualified than me then I'd start to break it down and wonder why I wasn't getting the job.

I hope the pineapple doesn't blight his chances.

[jellydog]

Ever notice that when there is a debate about racism/discrimination the "There is no discrimination" faction is desperately intent on ending the discussion darn near before it starts ?

Excuse me?

I've asked you to provide some simple evidence other than "there aren't any".

You're the one ending the discussion, because you haven't got any.

Ha Ha ! OK Chiccy, I've had my fun. I haven't been fed so many straight lines since I worked with Margaret Dumont.

[Chicog]

[jellydog]

Chiccy feeding me straight lines. His hair was different then.

[smokie36]

If there is a black manager that is good enough they will get the job.

Complete and utter bullshit.

You ought to be put in a time machine and sent back to Alabama 50-60 years ago.

If Mr Blobby had a record of winning every league he entered he'd soon find himself managing West Ham.

I'm not sure why that seemed relevant.

[carmine]

If there is a black manager that is good enough they will get the job.

Bobbins. They don't even get the chance to find out if they're good enough because they don't even get interviews. It's obviously a problem in football.

When the likes of Hodgson and Fat Sam are scrounging around for a job as a pundit and black candidates are given a chance to fail...then that will be a small sign of progress.

Seems 'Arry is on the chopping block and who is considered as a replacement ? Dim <deleted> Sherwood. A perfect opportunity to hire a black manager, see him fail at QPR, and then explain "well, we gave them a chance".

To be fair to Sherwood, his record at Spurs suggests he would be a very appropriate candidate for the QPR job. I'm no fan of his as you know but his points tally whilst Spurs coach is there for all to see.

[carmine]

Gents, whilst i respect all your opinions i really don't feel this discussion actually goes anywhere until we know how many retired black players have actually applied for their coaching badges. Lets also remember this dearth of black managers is not confined to the premier league.

I'd be interested to ask for example, Ledley King, whether he has/will apply for one or what his opinion is. he's a great ambassador for Spurs and football generally and is a level headed guy. Whats his view?

There is a dearth and there must be reasons but maybe its too simplistic to put it down to discrimination.

[oldgit]

Thinking about the lack of black referees and assistants around, it could be that they are in fear of being racially abused on the pitch while officiating.

[carmine]

Thinking about the lack of black referees and assistants around, it could be that they are in fear of being racially abused on the pitch while officiating.

I'm sure this would certainly be the case on the continent where racism is rife, though i'm not sure it would be much of an issue in the premier league where the FA really stamps down on racist abuse. At lower league levels it may well be so and this of course is where officials would embark on their new career.

[Chicog]

Thinking about the lack of black referees and assistants around, it could be that they are in fear of being racially abused on the pitch while officiating.

Maybe so, but that may be more perception than reality.

Certainly I never heard Rennie get any racial abuse, and given the make up of most crowds (at least in London) it wouldn't have gone down too well if he had.

[oldgit]

Thinking about the lack of black referees and assistants around, it could be that they are in fear of being racially abused on the pitch while officiating.

Maybe so, but that may be more perception than reality.

Certainly I never heard Rennie get any racial abuse, and given the make up of most crowds (at least in London) it wouldn't have gone down too well if he had.

Rennie was a big old lump and looked like he could look after himself in that regard. By some accounts, he wasn't short on self confidence either. There still remains the question of why there seems to be no ex professional footballers trying to get into the ranks of officiating. They're always complaining that there are not enough referees with experience of playing the game at the highest level, but when pressed on the subject, they nestle back into their comfy studio sofas and give a look of resignation.

[NE1]

Simple , they don't need the money.

[champers]

Without having any statistical evidence to back it up, I strongly feel that football does itself a huge disservice by not employing or engaging with more of the black and ethnic minority population, whether it be in the boardroom, on the coaching staff, or in the crowd. On the pitch the pure ability and quality of black players has overcome prejudices against them and representation is more in line with the nation's ethnic make up. It does beggar belief that black players can't become good or great managers, but it seems that they are not getting interviews for jobs in large enough numbers for this to happen. I think time will resolve this issue as more modern and enlightened thinkers in boardrooms, and at the top of the EPL, FL & FA, will replace some of the older & hidebound generation. Twenty five years ago some clubs resolutely refused to have black players in their teams and some of those that did had black players booed and abused by their own fans. Now we couldn't imagine teams without black players - take them out of the England squad and there's a massive loss of talent.

[tw25rw]

Better than being a bleeding heart liberal that wants to give people jobs just because of the colour of their skin.

Ugh.. You've spent too much time online talking with idiot Americans.

[StevieH]

Gents, whilst i respect all your opinions i really don't feel this discussion actually goes anywhere until we know how many retired black players have actually applied for their coaching badges. Lets also remember this dearth of black managers is not confined to the premier league.

I'd be interested to ask for example, Ledley King, whether he has/will apply for one or what his opinion is. he's a great ambassador for Spurs and football generally and is a level headed guy. Whats his view?

There is a dearth and there must be reasons but maybe its too simplistic to put it down to discrimination.

there was a radio five podcast earlier this week about the rooney rule and it had a couple of black ex-players on saying that they know plenty of former players who've done their badges and want to get onto the ladder but who simply don't get interviews. that's the evidence that chicog seems to be on about. there are almost zero black managers because it's a closed shop full of white men and an old boys' network that has no equality of opportunity or of access. if it isn't down to discrimination then what is it down to?

as you mention carmine it isn't solely an english premier league problem, same goes in other countries too - but it is quite obviously a real issue. anyone denying it is is talking out of their hoop.

[Chicog]

Gents, whilst i respect all your opinions i really don't feel this discussion actually goes anywhere until we know how many retired black players have actually applied for their coaching badges. Lets also remember this dearth of black managers is not confined to the premier league.

I'd be interested to ask for example, Ledley King, whether he has/will apply for one or what his opinion is. he's a great ambassador for Spurs and football generally and is a level headed guy. Whats his view?

There is a dearth and there must be reasons but maybe its too simplistic to put it down to discrimination.

there was a radio five podcast earlier this week about the rooney rule and it had a couple of black ex-players on saying that they know plenty of former players who've done their badges and want to get onto the ladder but who simply don't get interviews. that's the evidence that chicog seems to be on about. there are almost zero black managers because it's a closed shop full of white men and an old boys' network that has no equality of opportunity or of access. if it isn't down to discrimination then what is it down to?

as you mention carmine it isn't solely an english premier league problem, same goes in other countries too - but it is quite obviously a real issue. anyone denying it is is talking out of their hoop.

And that includes Black player Jason Lee, who has a completely different opinion, does it?

The last black manager I can remember was Terry Connor, who took Wolves down and got the sack.

He's now Mick McCarthy's assistant at Ipswich on a three year contract, and he's 52 so there's no reason to think he might not get a crack at the manager's job again sometime.

Whether he's up to any more than putting the cones out remains to be seen.

[StevieH]

Gents, whilst i respect all your opinions i really don't feel this discussion actually goes anywhere until we know how many retired black players have actually applied for their coaching badges. Lets also remember this dearth of black managers is not confined to the premier league.

I'd be interested to ask for example, Ledley King, whether he has/will apply for one or what his opinion is. he's a great ambassador for Spurs and football generally and is a level headed guy. Whats his view?

There is a dearth and there must be reasons but maybe its too simplistic to put it down to discrimination.

there was a radio five podcast earlier this week about the rooney rule and it had a couple of black ex-players on saying that they know plenty of former players who've done their badges and want to get onto the ladder but who simply don't get interviews. that's the evidence that chicog seems to be on about. there are almost zero black managers because it's a closed shop full of white men and an old boys' network that has no equality of opportunity or of access. if it isn't down to discrimination then what is it down to?

as you mention carmine it isn't solely an english premier league problem, same goes in other countries too - but it is quite obviously a real issue. anyone denying it is is talking out of their hoop.

And that includes Black player Jason Lee, who has a completely different opinion, does it?

The last black manager I can remember was Terry Connor, who took Wolves down and got the sack.

He's now Mick McCarthy's assistant at Ipswich on a three year contract, and he's 52 so there's no reason to think he might not get a crack at the manager's job again sometime.

Whether he's up to any more than putting the cones out remains to be seen.

jason lee is entitled to his opinion but he rather contradicts himself with the line "It's easy for me to say at the minute, because I haven't applied for these jobs yet and been given knock-backs." others who have done their badges and who are applying for vacant jobs say they are simply not getting interviews. so i think their opinions carry rather more weight than that of the pineappled one.

you don't remember chris hughton?

[NE1]

I even read an interview with Brendan Batson , who is the biggest mouth piece for all this , and he said " I have no evidence of racial discrimination against black people not getting managerial positions "

Go look at the majority of successful managers and you will find they started off on the lower rungs of the ladder.

You cannot become the chairman of the board overnight , it takes hard work and persistence.

People , stop crying , try a bit harder.

[champers]

I even read an interview with Brendan Batson , who is the biggest mouth piece for all this , and he said " I have no evidence of racial discrimination against black people not getting managerial positions "

Go look at the majority of successful managers and you will find they started off on the lower rungs of the ladder.

You cannot become the chairman of the board overnight , it takes hard work and persistence.

People , stop crying , try a bit harder.

Of course he has no evidence ; no-one is going to say "We didn't appoint or interview so-and-so because he's black". Everyone knows the right things to say (or not to say). It's very much a case of talking the talk, but not walking the walk. I just think that there are great opportunities being missed. The law of averages, if nothing else, tells you there are bound to be good black managers should they ever get the chance. They aren't getting the chance. There will also be bad ones as well. The best will prosper, black or white.

[Chicog]

jason lee is entitled to his opinion but he rather contradicts himself with the line "It's easy for me to say at the minute, because I haven't applied for these jobs yet and been given knock-backs." others who have done their badges and who are applying for vacant jobs say they are simply not getting interviews. so i think their opinions carry rather more weight than that of the pineappled one.

you don't remember chris hughton?

He doesn't contradict himself, he simply clarifies his own position. He's saying he hasn't been knocked back because he's black, but that's because he hasn't applied for any jobs yet.

And I have yet to see any figures on black players doing coaching badges. Come on, this whole conversation is hypothetical until someone comes up with some meaningful statistics other than "how many black managers there are".

Alright, Keith Curle:

“Are there enough black or mixed-race managers getting their coaching qualifications and really educating themselves for the role at the minute?” Curle says. “It’s not just about standing on the touchline for 90 minutes. When you’re trying to sell yourself as a manager it’s about your organisational skills, about running various departments. Are you able to bring a professional ethos to the whole football club that’s going to shine through?”

And his comments on Hughton (who let's face it is not good enough for a big club, and didn't exactly pull up trees at Norwich last time out):

“Chris will be back managing soon,” Curle says. “I know for a fact he’s been offered Premier League jobs as a No2 with the possibility of stepping up when there’s a new regime but he doesn’t want that.”

[oldgit]

Gents, whilst i respect all your opinions i really don't feel this discussion actually goes anywhere until we know how many retired black players have actually applied for their coaching badges. Lets also remember this dearth of black managers is not confined to the premier league.

I'd be interested to ask for example, Ledley King, whether he has/will apply for one or what his opinion is. he's a great ambassador for Spurs and football generally and is a level headed guy. Whats his view?

There is a dearth and there must be reasons but maybe its too simplistic to put it down to discrimination.

Here's a bit of research I've carried out on the subject.

In August 2012, the FA COACH Bursary Programme was introduced for aspiring black and asian

coaches who have already attained a Level 2 coaching badge. 49 black and asian were the first group to benefit and others would follow. They would get to work at either a Premier League or Football League club on a 3 year programme. This scheme would be managed by Brendan Batson.

In October 2013, there was a report on the Skysports website, in which the FA were asking for more Asian coaches. Coach Imrul Gazi felt that persuading the Asian parents to get involved is a major hurdle. Current figures, at the time of the article, were that there are just 500 Asian and black coaches out of a total 20,000 that are registered with the FA. Of 28,000 registered referees, just 1000 are black or Asian. Speaking at the Asian Football Awards, their founder Baljit Rihal said that there is an element of parental pressure to go into a particular vocation but reiterated that the 'gatekeepers' of English football who make the decisions, are preventing the selection of black and Asian coaching applicants.

In a report in the Daily Mail, dated 28 March 2013, Ledley King said that he is in the initial phase of attaining his UEFA 'B' Licence. He said he would hope that the colour of his skin would have no effect when it comes to talent. He spoke of his admiration for the work of Chris Ramsay, a black member of the coaching staff at Tottenham. Ramsay has since left his post, when Pocchettino became the new manager, and is now the assistant manager of the England U-17 national team.

A piece of Santisuk proportions which, I hope, isn't sleep inducing.

[champers]

Rihal said that there is an element of parental pressure to go into a particular vocation. This is the argument that football isn't a good enough profession for Asian children, or so say their parents. This argument falls to pieces when you see the number of Asian boxers there are, and pretty successful some of them are too. Boxing is more accepting of anyone of any race , any colour, any religion. There are more and more owners who are what could be described as from ethnic minorities (Hull, Fulham, QPR, Blackburn) and they would surely be less colour prejudiced, as will US owners (Man Utd, Liverpool,Villa, Sunderland, etc) who have a background in American Football where the Rooney rule is in effect.