Mega transport projects get Thai Cabinet approval

[Robespiere]

The red bars are share of GDP.

Although this is not government revenue, it does show how money is sucked out of the regions and funnelled into Bangkok.

If the point you're trying to make is that Bangkokians pay more (per capita) in taxes than the rural folk - this is true but the reason it is true is because those not residing in the capital have been economically marginalised by decades worth of unfair policies, corruption and neglect by (mostly military) governments.

(Also don't forget that all Thais, rich or poor pay VAT on every purchase).

The reason Thaksin is so loved is that his policies actually directed expenditure into the rural areas to kickstart economic activity. Once capital is circulating in a system it can multiply and generate more and more wealth. As a middle class develops government revenues will grow, so it really is in the nations best interest to push capital into the rural areas, unfortunately the greedy few at the top of the tree don't like to lose a single satang to national development and poverty reduction and so we get coup after coup and results as you see in the graph above.

The governments of western countries also spend more in the cities than they do in country areas.

Thailand has had military governments for less than 3 years since (and including) the 1991 coup. That's 3 out of 23 years. Not really "mostly" is it.

Thais do not pay VAT on every purchase. If a small business doesn't make a certain amount of revenue per year they don't have to collect VAT. There are also many small business that don't charge VAT on cash purchases. It's also the poorer people that are spending money in these businesses, so the poorer people are less likely to be paying VAT.

You need to look at the businesses in the rural areas to see who the "greedy few" are. The poo-yai's and big business people in the country areas are the ones that made money out of Thaksin's policies.

1. Not to the same extreme as in Thailand - not even in the same ballpark (particularly when you take into account that in Western countries urban populations outnumber rural populations - in Thailand this is not so).

2. Following the Siamese revolution of 1932, which imposed constitutional limits on the monarchy, Thai politics were dominated for around fifty years by a military and bureaucratic elite, with the support of businessmen and large-scale entrepreneurs. Changes of government were affected primarily by a long series of mostly bloodless coups.

3. VAT is an indirect tax imposed on the value added of each stage of production and distribution. Any person or entity who regularly supplies goods or provides services in Thailand and has an annual turnover exceeding 1.8 million baht is subject to VAT in Thailand. Basically, if you go to 7-11 and buy a coke - you pay VAT and as the poor spend more of their income on necessities (food etc.) they pay a greater percentage of their income to VAT.

4. All the money is in Bangkok (look at the graph), your poo-yais are collecting chicken feed compared to what's going on in the capital.

5. If Thaksin's policies didn't enrich the masses, why do so many of them love him so? Why does he keep winning election after election?

(Let me pre-empt your likely ridiculous claim that Thaksin wins due to vote buying by saying if that were true, why did the Yellows blow billions funding Suthep's street mob when they could have just used the funds to outbid Thaksin and buy the votes themselves?)

[whybother]

1. Not to the same extreme as in Thailand - not even in the same ballpark (particularly when you take into account that in Western countries urban populations outnumber rural populations - in Thailand this is not so).

2. Following the Siamese revolution of 1932, which imposed constitutional limits on the monarchy, Thai politics were dominated for around fifty years by a military and bureaucratic elite, with the support of businessmen and large-scale entrepreneurs. Changes of government were affected primarily by a long series of mostly bloodless coups.

3. VAT is an indirect tax imposed on the value added of each stage of production and distribution. Any person or entity who regularly supplies goods or provides services in Thailand and has an annual turnover exceeding 1.8 million baht is subject to VAT in Thailand. Basically, if you go to 7-11 and buy a coke - you pay VAT and as the poor spend more of their income on necessities (food etc.) they pay a greater percentage of their income to VAT.

4. All the money is in Bangkok (look at the graph), your poo-yais are collecting chicken feed compared to what's going on in the capital.

5. If Thaksin's policies didn't enrich the masses, why do so many of them love him so? Why does he keep winning election after election?

(Let me pre-empt your likely ridiculous claim that Thaksin wins due to vote buying by saying if that were true, why did the Yellows blow billions funding Suthep's street mob when they could have just used the funds to outbid Thaksin and buy the votes themselves?)

1. It may not be to the same degree, but they still do it.

2. Shall we discuss ancient history or something a bit more recent?

3. I know what VAT is. I also know that there aren't any 7/11's in most small villages. The poor spend a lot of their money at markets, which don't usually charge VAT.

4. The big business people in the country areas are collecting a lot of the money that should be going to farmers.

5. I don't claim that Thaksin wins through vote buying. IMO, Thaksin was lucky to be in power during a global economic boom. "Things were better when Thaksin was in power". That's why they keep voting for him. Notice how all his policies failed under Yingluck?

[Robespiere]

1. Not to the same extreme as in Thailand - not even in the same ballpark (particularly when you take into account that in Western countries urban populations outnumber rural populations - in Thailand this is not so).

2. Following the Siamese revolution of 1932, which imposed constitutional limits on the monarchy, Thai politics were dominated for around fifty years by a military and bureaucratic elite, with the support of businessmen and large-scale entrepreneurs. Changes of government were affected primarily by a long series of mostly bloodless coups.

3. VAT is an indirect tax imposed on the value added of each stage of production and distribution. Any person or entity who regularly supplies goods or provides services in Thailand and has an annual turnover exceeding 1.8 million baht is subject to VAT in Thailand. Basically, if you go to 7-11 and buy a coke - you pay VAT and as the poor spend more of their income on necessities (food etc.) they pay a greater percentage of their income to VAT.

4. All the money is in Bangkok (look at the graph), your poo-yais are collecting chicken feed compared to what's going on in the capital.

5. If Thaksin's policies didn't enrich the masses, why do so many of them love him so? Why does he keep winning election after election?

(Let me pre-empt your likely ridiculous claim that Thaksin wins due to vote buying by saying if that were true, why did the Yellows blow billions funding Suthep's street mob when they could have just used the funds to outbid Thaksin and buy the votes themselves?)

1. It may not be to the same degree, but they still do it.

2. Shall we discuss ancient history or something a bit more recent?

3. I know what VAT is. I also know that there aren't any 7/11's in most small villages. The poor spend a lot of their money at markets, which don't usually charge VAT.

4. The big business people in the country areas are collecting a lot of the money that should be going to farmers.

5. I don't claim that Thaksin wins through vote buying. IMO, Thaksin was lucky to be in power during a global economic boom. "Things were better when Thaksin was in power". That's why they keep voting for him. Notice how all his policies failed under Yingluck?

1. Slapping your wrist and blowing your head off off with a shotgun are both bodily assaults - not to the same degree though.

2. Thailand didn't arrive in the situation it is in overnight. The policies of successive governments beginning in 1932 got it into the current situation of extreme wealth disparity.

3. VAT is a broad based consumption tax - if you consume you can't really avoid it. Tell me, do your markets sell nappies and tampons VAT free?

4. This is still minimal compared to what the city folk are ripping off.

5. All his policies didn't fail under Yingluck. A good argument can be made that many of those that did fail, failed due to Yellow sabotage of the political system and processes.

[whybother]

<snip>

5. All his policies didn't fail under Yingluck. A good argument can be made that many of those that did fail, failed due to Yellow sabotage of the political system and processes.

Which policies didn't fail? Which ones that did fail were due to "yellow sabotage"?

[Robespiere]

<snip>

5. All his policies didn't fail under Yingluck. A good argument can be made that many of those that did fail, failed due to Yellow sabotage of the political system and processes.

Which policies didn't fail? Which ones that did fail were due to "yellow sabotage"?

Conceding the other four points are we?

[whybother]

<snip>

5. All his policies didn't fail under Yingluck. A good argument can be made that many of those that did fail, failed due to Yellow sabotage of the political system and processes.

Which policies didn't fail? Which ones that did fail were due to "yellow sabotage"?

Conceding the other four points are we?

No. Number 5 just jumped out as needing a specific discussion.

1. Not to the same extreme now, but probably similar when compared to the same level of development.

2. You can't blame the current problems on things that happened 80 years ago, especially when most of the economic development in Thailand has happened over the last 30 years.

3. As I said, many Thais spend a lot (not all) of their money at markets where there is no VAT charged.

4. More money goes through the cities (as it does in all countries). In Thailand, a lot of the farmers are ripped off at the local level by the rich local businessmen.

5. I noticed you avoided answering the questions.

[Robespiere]

<snip>

5. All his policies didn't fail under Yingluck. A good argument can be made that many of those that did fail, failed due to Yellow sabotage of the political system and processes.

Which policies didn't fail? Which ones that did fail were due to "yellow sabotage"?

Conceding the other four points are we?

No. Number 5 just jumped out as needing a specific discussion.

1. Not to the same extreme now, but probably similar when compared to the same level of development.

2. You can't blame the current problems on things that happened 80 years ago, especially when most of the economic development in Thailand has happened over the last 30 years.

3. As I said, many Thais spend a lot (not all) of their money at markets where there is no VAT charged.

4. More money goes through the cities (as it does in all countries). In Thailand, a lot of the farmers are ripped off at the local level by the rich local businessmen.

5. I noticed you avoided answering the questions.

1. No, not probably similar. Thailand is been ruled by a minority that has systematically ripped off the masses for decades to a degree not seen in the western world for centuries. It is because the wealth distribution is so extreme that it is an issue. The disparity in government expenditure between urban and rural area in western countries asking to a slap on the wrist whereas the disparity in Thailand is akin to a close range shotgun blast to the cranium - only a fool could compare the two instance and regard them as similar or equal.

2. Yes, you can blame the current situation on things that have happened over the past 82 years. The mostly military governments over this span of Thai history shaped the nation. Regional Thailand is underdeveloped because government after government refused to invest any funds in either infrastructure or education outside of Bangkok. Thaksin began correcting this imbalance and achieved an awful lot in a short time frame until he was overthrown by those opposed to the fair and equal society Thaksin was building.

3. VAT free nappies and tampons? No. VAT free phone charge cards, electricity and Singha beer? No. Still not the point though. The reason that the poor pay little in taxes is because they have little to start off with. They have little not because they are stupid or lazy, but because they have been ripped off by a corrupted system generation after generation. Thaksin opened up opportunities for them to break out of the poverty cycle and for that they are forever grateful to him. Why did he do it? Because he knows if you lift the masses up out of poverty and into the middle class then you see an increase in governments revenues through increased tax collection on the newly affluent masses.

4. 10% of stuff all is stuff all. 10% of a sh!tload is an awful lot. The graft that occurs in Bangkok dwarfs the 20 - 25 baht your local businessmen a nicking off the farmers. It's the magnitude thing again, just like in point 1. Your local businessmen are slapping people on the wrist whilst the Bangkok big boys are letting off shotguns in peoples faces - again, only a fool could compare the two instances and regard them as similar or equal.

5. What policies didn't fail - how about all the ones the current regime has decided to continue of which there are numerous examples. Which ones were sabotaged - in some respects they all were as the Yellows were very indiscriminate in their efforts to destroy any and all things they could in order to weaken the elected government in order to overthrow it.

[whybother]

1. No, not probably similar. Thailand is been ruled by a minority that has systematically ripped off the masses for decades to a degree not seen in the western world for centuries. It is because the wealth distribution is so extreme that it is an issue. The disparity in government expenditure between urban and rural area in western countries asking to a slap on the wrist whereas the disparity in Thailand is akin to a close range shotgun blast to the cranium - only a fool could compare the two instance and regard them as similar or equal.

2. Yes, you can blame the current situation on things that have happened over the past 82 years. The mostly military governments over this span of Thai history shaped the nation. Regional Thailand is underdeveloped because government after government refused to invest any funds in either infrastructure or education outside of Bangkok. Thaksin began correcting this imbalance and achieved an awful lot in a short time frame until he was overthrown by those opposed to the fair and equal society Thaksin was building.

3. VAT free nappies and tampons? No. VAT free phone charge cards, electricity and Singha beer? No. Still not the point though. The reason that the poor pay little in taxes is because they have little to start off with. They have little not because they are stupid or lazy, but because they have been ripped off by a corrupted system generation after generation. Thaksin opened up opportunities for them to break out of the poverty cycle and for that they are forever grateful to him. Why did he do it? Because he knows if you lift the masses up out of poverty and into the middle class then you see an increase in governments revenues through increased tax collection on the newly affluent masses.

4. 10% of stuff all is stuff all. 10% of a sh!tload is an awful lot. The graft that occurs in Bangkok dwarfs the 20 - 25 baht your local businessmen a nicking off the farmers. It's the magnitude thing again, just like in point 1. Your local businessmen are slapping people on the wrist whilst the Bangkok big boys are letting off shotguns in peoples faces - again, only a fool could compare the two instances and regard them as similar or equal.

5. What policies didn't fail - how about all the ones the current regime has decided to continue of which there are numerous examples. Which ones were sabotaged - in some respects they all were as the Yellows were very indiscriminate in their efforts to destroy any and all things they could in order to weaken the elected government in order to overthrow it.

I often say that Thailand is the same as the West just 5 years, 10 years, 50 years, 200 years behind, depending on what you're looking at. The UK was ruled by a minority and they did the same as Thailand did, just at a different time.

Why only look at the last 82 years? Why not the last 500 years? Thai culture ... which is a major part of the problem here ... shaped the nation long before the 1932 coup. Being ripped off ... see point 1. Things were changing before Thaksin came along. As I said earlier, he just happened to be in power during a booming global economy. He didn't do what he did for the good of the people. He did it for himself. He knew that by keeping them happy he could keep power and keep ripping off the system they way the Bangkok elite have been doing it for decades.

What a cop out. What policies have been continued? The rice policy? No. The car policy? No. The 2 billion baht out of budget infrastructure policy? No, some of it has been brought in budget though. Name one policy that they "yellow shirts" destroyed? Just one.

[Robespiere]

1. No, not probably similar. Thailand is been ruled by a minority that has systematically ripped off the masses for decades to a degree not seen in the western world for centuries. It is because the wealth distribution is so extreme that it is an issue. The disparity in government expenditure between urban and rural area in western countries asking to a slap on the wrist whereas the disparity in Thailand is akin to a close range shotgun blast to the cranium - only a fool could compare the two instance and regard them as similar or equal.

2. Yes, you can blame the current situation on things that have happened over the past 82 years. The mostly military governments over this span of Thai history shaped the nation. Regional Thailand is underdeveloped because government after government refused to invest any funds in either infrastructure or education outside of Bangkok. Thaksin began correcting this imbalance and achieved an awful lot in a short time frame until he was overthrown by those opposed to the fair and equal society Thaksin was building.

3. VAT free nappies and tampons? No. VAT free phone charge cards, electricity and Singha beer? No. Still not the point though. The reason that the poor pay little in taxes is because they have little to start off with. They have little not because they are stupid or lazy, but because they have been ripped off by a corrupted system generation after generation. Thaksin opened up opportunities for them to break out of the poverty cycle and for that they are forever grateful to him. Why did he do it? Because he knows if you lift the masses up out of poverty and into the middle class then you see an increase in governments revenues through increased tax collection on the newly affluent masses.

4. 10% of stuff all is stuff all. 10% of a sh!tload is an awful lot. The graft that occurs in Bangkok dwarfs the 20 - 25 baht your local businessmen a nicking off the farmers. It's the magnitude thing again, just like in point 1. Your local businessmen are slapping people on the wrist whilst the Bangkok big boys are letting off shotguns in peoples faces - again, only a fool could compare the two instances and regard them as similar or equal.

5. What policies didn't fail - how about all the ones the current regime has decided to continue of which there are numerous examples. Which ones were sabotaged - in some respects they all were as the Yellows were very indiscriminate in their efforts to destroy any and all things they could in order to weaken the elected government in order to overthrow it.

I often say that Thailand is the same as the West just 5 years, 10 years, 50 years, 200 years behind, depending on what you're looking at. The UK was ruled by a minority and they did the same as Thailand did, just at a different time.

Why only look at the last 82 years? Why not the last 500 years? Thai culture ... which is a major part of the problem here ... shaped the nation long before the 1932 coup. Being ripped off ... see point 1. Things were changing before Thaksin came along. As I said earlier, he just happened to be in power during a booming global economy. He didn't do what he did for the good of the people. He did it for himself. He knew that by keeping them happy he could keep power and keep ripping off the system they way the Bangkok elite have been doing it for decades.

What a cop out. What policies have been continued? The rice policy? No. The car policy? No. The 2 billion baht out of budget infrastructure policy? No, some of it has been brought in budget though. Name one policy that they "yellow shirts" destroyed? Just one.

A random selection of headlines:

Thaksin Thinks, Prayuth Acts

BY ANDERS ENGVALL, GUEST CONTRIBUTOR

– 31 MAY 2014POSTED IN: THAILANDThe coup by the National Council for Peace and Order under General Prayuth Chan-ocha will lead to an acceleration of Thaksinomics, rather than its demise.

The junta has already embraced key elements of the Thaksin’s dual track development policy, combining international economic liberalism with domestic populist schemes, by reviving the 2-trillion baht infrastructure program and rapidly making payments to farmers under the rice-pledging program. As hypocrisy knows few boundaries, Democrat and former Finance Minister Korn Chatikavanij has quickly hailed the junta’s payments to farmers under the rice scheme, after years of criticizing the same program when implemented by Yingluck.

A key message in the 2012 election campaign was that “Thaksin Thinks, Puea Thai Acts” and the junta seemingly tries to adapt a “Thaksin Thinks, Prayuth Acts” model when restoring key economic policies of the party they just overthrew.

Thai junta takes page from Thaksin Shinawatra’s populist playbook PUBLISHED: 12 JUN 2014 13:33:41 | UPDATED: 13 JUN 2014 03:58:12

Thailand’s junta is taking a page out of Thaksin Shinawatra’s policy playbook, adopting some of the populist measures that drove his political success in a move that may help stabilise growth for the rest of 2014.

Thai Military Co-Opts Populist Policies of Government Deposed by Coup Gen. Prayuth Chan-ocha Attempts to Sell a Package of Big-Spending Projects

Since seizing power last month, Gen. Prayuth and his junta have aimed to keep many of the Shinawatra policies in place in a bid to turn the shrinking economy around after months of paralyzing, and sometimes violent, street protests.

While the army chief has begun dismantling Mr. Thaksin's network of business backers, his economic czar, Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong, has swapped his military uniform for dark-blue business suits to help keep the populist economic policies at work. It's not clear how many of the previous government's policies the junta ultimately will retain. But so far Marshal Prajin is extending Ms. Yingluck's tax cuts and promising to re-launch some of the previous government's ambitious infrastructure goals. Among them are plans to revamp the dilapidated rail network and portions of a multibillion dollar blueprint to shore up Thailand's fragile flood defenses.