Indonesian Air Force forces down Australian plane, detains pilots

[webfact]

Indonesian Air Force forces down Australian plane, detains pilots



JAKARTA: -- Indonesian Air Force officials in North Sulawesi forced a civilian aircraft flown by two Australian men to land after the plane entered Indonesian airspace without permission on Wednesday. Pilots Graeme Jacklin and Richard MacLean — both Australian citizens — have been detained by the Indonesian military, according to The Jakarta Globe.

Indonesian Air Force spokesman First Air Marshall Hadi Tjahyanto said the Beechcraft airplane was heading to Cebu in the Philippines from Darwin, Australia.

He said the aircraft was detected by the national air commando radar at 8am on Wednesday violating the Indonesian airspace,” Hadi said.

Two Sukhoi jet fighters were then scrambled to intercept the aircraft. The Beechcraft was then forced to land at Sam Ratulangi Military Air Base in Manado at 10:30am Jakarta time.

“After we searched them we found out they didn’t have the necessary documentation,” Heru said, adding that an investigation would continue.

In April another civilian aircraft was forced to land for entering Indonesian airspace. Officers arrested the pilot, 65-year-old Heinz Peier, who was on his way to Kuala Lumpur and Singapore.

Peier, a Swiss national, was released after obtaining the necessary overflight and landing permits from the foreign ministry, the transportation ministry and the Indonesian military.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/indonesian-air-force-forces-australian-plane-detains-pilots/


-- Thai PBS 2014-10-23

[xerostar]

Wow, a huge security scare for the Indonesians!

obviously two Aussies just heading north minding their own business.

I wonder if every passenger jet has to get the same clearances to overfly the Indos?

I suppose the Indonesian jet pilots needed some practice showing off their Russian hardware like that ...

[loongdavid]

Flying the very same route that Qantas and Jetstar travel many times every week. If Indonesia wanted to show the world that its radar was working and efficient, this was not the way to do it, particularly as they have 20th century radar technology and the AAM depicted hanging from the Sukhoi fighter was most likely a dummy round. Indonesian aviation state secrets are well known to everyone who is interested so why go doing something like this?

[Strangebrew]

SUKHOI? is that ladyboy aircraft?

[RigPig]

Australia has been testing Indonesia's "response time" for years. They sold them all their old guns etc. so they know what they have, Indo is there biggest / closest security threat. I am sure that everything that happened was closely monitored

[watcharacters]

Australia has been testing Indonesia's "response time" for years. They sold them all their old guns etc. so they know what they have, Indo is there biggest / closest security threat. I am sure that everything that happened was closely monitored

I'm wondering where you came across this fact? Does Indo. threaten Australia?

" Indo is there biggest / closest security threat"

Just wondering?

[IMA_FARANG]

Drugs.

I guess it turned out it wasn't but small aircraft "accidentally" flying into another air space are usually interpreted by that country's air traffic control personnel as having the possibility of being a drug run, trying to sneak in low under their radar coverage.

No country in the world will let you do that.

No matter what you think, no country let's you enter their airspace without clearance from their air traffic control people.

[Suradit69]

Wow, a huge security scare for the Indonesians!

obviously two Aussies just heading north minding their own business.

I wonder if every passenger jet has to get the same clearances to overfly the Indos?

I suppose the Indonesian jet pilots needed some practice showing off their Russian hardware like that ...

"Wow, a huge security scare for the Indonesians!

Given all that's happening in the world, including the attack in Ottawa by a few loonies, I would think Indonesia has every reason to respond, whether it's a couple of nut jobs in a small aircraft or a commercial airliner or military aircraft off course. At least they didn't shoot it down and ask questions later like the Russians did with flight MH17

[MW72]

Drugs.

I guess it turned out it wasn't but small aircraft "accidentally" flying into another air space are usually interpreted by that country's air traffic control personnel as having the possibility of being a drug run, trying to sneak in low under their radar coverage.

No country in the world will let you do that.

No matter what you think, no country let's you enter their airspace without clearance from their air traffic control people.

If the Indonesians had not stopped the plane and word had got out there would be an uproar about how poor their air defences were. People would be on here talking about how they had not improved anything since MH370 and how this plane could have been a terrorist threat.

They do the right thing and intercept the plane and they get slagged off for that. They can't win.

[Showbags]

You cannot just willy nilly enter another countries air space......all the airlines get clearances....some corridors dont need them.....and not sure, but at some heights they may be above their airspace.....having said that....i have snuck across a border or 2.

[ggt]

You go Indonesian Air Force...take down those tourist small aircraft who do not have the proper paperwork entering your air space...Hey...they may be smokers also...could fine them for polluting you precious air quality...you make me so proud...

[RigPig]

Australia has been testing Indonesia's "response time" for years. They sold them all their old guns etc. so they know what they have, Indo is there biggest / closest security threat. I am sure that everything that happened was closely monitored

I'm wondering where you came across this fact? Does Indo. threaten Australia?

" Indo is there biggest / closest security threat"

Just wondering?

I worked for 12 months or so at the Oakey Army Aviation base installing a computerised energy management system, I had access to restricted areas and became quite friendly with a lot of the officers, even going out to dinner with some of them and being invited into the various "messes". Australia's helicopter fleet is armed defensively for "politically sensitive reasons" around the region but can be "transformed" into offensive roles VERY quickly. Some parts are kept at the base, which is also now jointly used to train overseas armies (Singapore I think has a permanent presence there, they were still building it at the time). Other devices are available at call from the U.S. which also has a presence on the base.

Indonesia is the largest, closest and most populated country to Australia and therefore has to be considered a potential threat I guess. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer....

[mutha289]

You cannot just willy nilly enter another countries air space......all the airlines get clearances....some corridors dont need them.....and not sure, but at some heights they may be above their airspace.....having said that....i have snuck across a border or 2.

Agreed, most countries have protected airspace which requires a clearance to enter, usually this clearance needs to be requested and approved prior to the flight. As for the Sukhoi fighters, they are Russian made and Indonesia currently operates the SU-27 & SU-30. I suspect the intercept of the relatively low speed Beechcraft by these high performance fighters must have been interesting.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Scott
Oversized pictures

[Gillyflower]

I have always understood that an aircraft cannot take off with submitting a flight plan.

Whilst it is not the same thing, it's like entering a country's territorial waters. How may times do I read that fishing fleets put down their nets in the waters of another country. There is usually hell to pay. That's one of the reasons countries have Coast Guards.

[rickirs]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

alt=whistling.gif> Drugs.

I guess it turned out it wasn't but small aircraft "accidentally" flying into another air space are usually interpreted by that country's air traffic control personnel as having the possibility of being a drug run, trying to sneak in low under their radar coverage.

No country in the world will let you do that.

No matter what you think, no country let's you enter their airspace without clearance from their air traffic control people.

MH370 did just that.

[Scott]

A post with oversized pictures has been edited. Large graphics messes up the formatting on the forum.

[JacChang]

Just like the movies, when you needed the security to come in, they are nowhere to be seen. And some useless case like this, and they are proud to have accomplished something.

[Nemesis7]

It's funny to see how few TV forum members commenting over an issue not even understanding the Civil Aviation Law and the 5th and 6th freedom involved within. How can any one fly into another country's air suave without permission? Can you arrive at thailand without proper documentation ?? Plus all sort of aircraft be it civil or military must and for sure need to submit flight plan, obtain route clearence , and have proper paper work for the aircraft along with insurence for the aircraft. Those pilots should thank their lucky stars that weren't shot by those jets for entering into another country's air space without prior consent.

Ask any commercial pilot or military pilot about it, and they will tell you, what the Indonesians did was right or wrong ???

[Bucko]

Drugs.

I guess it turned out it wasn't but small aircraft "accidentally" flying into another air space are usually interpreted by that country's air traffic control personnel as having the possibility of being a drug run, trying to sneak in low under their radar coverage.

No country in the world will let you do that.

No matter what you think, no country let's you enter their airspace without clearance from their air traffic control people.

Quite correct Ima-Farang--- Even in your home country--you are required to request permission to enter another controlled airspace if it is on route to destination--and comply with their directives --that airspace ends at a determined height above sea-level- above that is an international control unit--in N.Z it's Oceania--when you leave that--you are passed over to contact to the next control on route --and so it goes on

[simple1]

Australia has been testing Indonesia's "response time" for years. They sold them all their old guns etc. so they know what they have, Indo is there biggest / closest security threat. I am sure that everything that happened was closely monitored

I'm wondering where you came across this fact? Does Indo. threaten Australia?

" Indo is there biggest / closest security threat"

Just wondering?

Australian Defence White Papers consistantly identify Indonesia as a potential strategic threat. A good analysis, although dated 06/2013 still relevant, covering the pros and cons an excerpt from the URL below...

Indonesia’s army has always been big, but it has been designed for the purposes of internal security, not for fighting foreign wars. More importantly, its weak air and naval forces have meant it has never been able to project its land forces beyond the archipelago. Conversely, Australia has much stronger air and naval forces than Indonesia but a smaller and weaker army. It could project land forces onto Indonesian territory, but these could not achieve anything once they got ashore. Nor could the ADF’s modest long-range strike forces do enough damage to really worry Jakarta. Hence Indonesia has never posed a serious threat to Australia, and Australia has never posed much of a threat to it.

http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2013/june/1370181600/hugh-white/what-indonesia-s-rise-means-australia

[LuckyLew]

I think Indonesia are more concerned with internal threats tgen external, but still I the law says you need permission to fly into tgeir air space then the two Assies are in the wrong

[RigPig]

Australia has been testing Indonesia's "response time" for years. They sold them all their old guns etc. so they know what they have, Indo is there biggest / closest security threat. I am sure that everything that happened was closely monitored

I'm wondering where you came across this fact? Does Indo. threaten Australia?

" Indo is there biggest / closest security threat"

Just wondering?

Australian Defence White Papers consistantly identify Indonesia as a potential strategic threat. A good analysis, although dated 06/2013 still relevant, covering the pros and cons an excerpt from the URL below...

Indonesia’s army has always been big, but it has been designed for the purposes of internal security, not for fighting foreign wars. More importantly, its weak air and naval forces have meant it has never been able to project its land forces beyond the archipelago. Conversely, Australia has much stronger air and naval forces than Indonesia but a smaller and weaker army. It could project land forces onto Indonesian territory, but these could not achieve anything once they got ashore. Nor could the ADF’s modest long-range strike forces do enough damage to really worry Jakarta. Hence Indonesia has never posed a serious threat to Australia, and Australia has never posed much of a threat to it.

http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2013/june/1370181600/hugh-white/what-indonesia-s-rise-means-australia

And that's EXACTLY what I was told we want them to think, it keeps everyone happy in the region. Admittedly this was probably 14 years ago now, but do you seriously think Australia is going to say "we are capable of turning our defence forces into an agressive force wihin 7 days" ? It's called disinformation, "never let your left hand know what your right hand is doing".

To some extent the white paper is telling the truth, that doesn't mean it can't be changed "over night" if necessary and we don't have the means to do so.

As I said before, Australia sold them a lot of arms and when I questioned the logic of this, I was told (by an army Major,at at dinner one night) it's the easiest way to know what they have and what your up against...

I have no reason to believe he was "pulling my chain", it just wasn't necessary. I was also told the same things when working in a (restricted area) hangar full of helicopters by a captain, who showed me these parts come off here and you just bolt the other parts on in place. What parts we don't have here we can get from the States overnight.

I also worked at Southern Cross Foundry, and they were paid by the government to stockpile steel "for national defence reasons", Australia's defence forces are not as benign as people think.

Seriously, why do you think they "scrambled" jets and forced the plane down? Wouldn't just contacting them by radio and saying "you shouldn't be where you are" do? A lot more cost effective! They were testing their own response time and making a statement.

Maybe (and I am saying maybe) they were getting annoyed with F18's "straying" into their air space and leaving before they could do anything. 2 Sukhoi fighters against a small civillian aircraft is a bit over kill...... They could have just escorted it into international air space.

"

[simple1]

Australia has been testing Indonesia's "response time" for years. They sold them all their old guns etc. so they know what they have, Indo is there biggest / closest security threat. I am sure that everything that happened was closely monitored

I'm wondering where you came across this fact? Does Indo. threaten Australia?

" Indo is there biggest / closest security threat"

Just wondering?

Australian Defence White Papers consistantly identify Indonesia as a potential strategic threat. A good analysis, although dated 06/2013 still relevant, covering the pros and cons an excerpt from the URL below...

Indonesia’s army has always been big, but it has been designed for the purposes of internal security, not for fighting foreign wars. More importantly, its weak air and naval forces have meant it has never been able to project its land forces beyond the archipelago. Conversely, Australia has much stronger air and naval forces than Indonesia but a smaller and weaker army. It could project land forces onto Indonesian territory, but these could not achieve anything once they got ashore. Nor could the ADF’s modest long-range strike forces do enough damage to really worry Jakarta. Hence Indonesia has never posed a serious threat to Australia, and Australia has never posed much of a threat to it.

http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2013/june/1370181600/hugh-white/what-indonesia-s-rise-means-australia

And that's EXACTLY what I was told we want them to think, it keeps everyone happy in the region. Admittedly this was probably 14 years ago now, but do you seriously think Australia is going to say "we are capable of turning our defence forces into an agressive force wihin 7 days" ? It's called disinformation, "never let your left hand know what your right hand is doing".

To some extent the white paper is telling the truth, that doesn't mean it can't be changed "over night" if necessary and we don't have the means to do so.

As I said before, Australia sold them a lot of arms and when I questioned the logic of this, I was told (by an army Major,at at dinner one night) it's the easiest way to know what they have and what your up against...

I have no reason to believe he was "pulling my chain", it just wasn't necessary. I was also told the same things when working in a (restricted area) hangar full of helicopters by a captain, who showed me these parts come off here and you just bolt the other parts on in place. What parts we don't have here we can get from the States overnight.

I also worked at Southern Cross Foundry, and they were paid by the government to stockpile steel "for national defence reasons", Australia's defence forces are not as benign as people think.

Seriously, why do you think they "scrambled" jets and forced the plane down? Wouldn't just contacting them by radio and saying "you shouldn't be where you are" do? A lot more cost effective! They were testing their own response time and making a statement.

Maybe (and I am saying maybe) they were getting annoyed with F18's "straying" into their air space and leaving before they could do anything. 2 Sukhoi fighters against a small civillian aircraft is a bit over kill...... They could have just escorted it into international air space.

The forcing down of a privately owned plane, in my opinion, is trivial.

As the article I linked to stated, projections claim by 2030 Indonesia will have twice the GDP of Australia, by 2050 four times the GDP. Being a near neighbour, this economic power will influence a very different security dialogue / relationship between Oz & Indo than exists today.

[bendejo]

"You must pay a fine, then no problem."

[Showbags]

So it might be a good idea to get indo citizenship in readiness for the takeover in the future...

[Ulic]

I am sure the transponders of both the planes were functioning and the pilots were easily tracked. Probably had no intention

of purpossly violating Indonesian air space, but thought they just needed paperwork for there final destination.

[Bkungbank]

Indonesia have better air space control then Malaysia when the plane lost still no sure where it goes.