Toyota may shift manufacturing hub for Fortuner from Thailand to Philippines

[Thai at Heart]

The Japanese have had enough of Thailand, it's floods, corruption, lack of law and order, laziness, and unregulated businesses. Have you ever seen Japanese outside the Emporium area, Thonglor 55 or the factories outside central Bangkok in chauffeured cars and their country clubs? japanese never go around walking in Thailand except around Soi 55 and 24 clubs. They don't consider Thailand safe and very high risk. The Japanese are running from Thailand. They have had enough.

umm no, the Japanese are chauffeured around because they have a driver and they make use of it, not because its not safe to walk around. I have plenty of japanese friends who do not have a driver because they are not managerial level, they walk, take bts or taxi all over bangkok. Your views of japanese folks are completely off.

The areas you mentioned are just where a lot of them live and there are Japanese plazas around hence they are concentrated around that area mostly.

They do consider Thailand as high risk due to politics and the flood, but its even worse in Philippines. I doubt they would move there as there are less parts suppliers and Philippines is more prone to flooding and typhoons than Thailand. Not to mention the politics is even more corrupt, its like Thailand in the early 90s.

They have moved the yaris production already.

This is more to do with deciding where to put your money for 30 years. The factory in Thailand has been there donkeys years, it will need changes and upgrading, or you can start fresh on a greenfield.

So the Philippines can win by offering a clean slate and some benefits. The factory on Thailand will maybe stay running but their new focus maybe the Philippines. All new, all shiny, state of the art.

I went into the VW factory in China. The Audi line was 20 years old and massively cramped. The VW one next to it was brand new and very spacious. The process was very different. Upgrading something is often much harder than starting from a clean slate.

[pisico]

The Japanese have had enough of Thailand, it's floods, corruption, lack of law and order, laziness, and unregulated businesses. Have you ever seen Japanese outside the Emporium area, Thonglor 55 or the factories outside central Bangkok in chauffeured cars and their country clubs? japanese never go around walking in Thailand except around Soi 55 and 24 clubs. They don't consider Thailand safe and very high risk. The Japanese are running from Thailand. They have had enough.

Well, but what they will experience in Philippines, will make things a lot worse for them...

Corruption, lack of law and order, laziness, unregulated businesses, bad infrastructure, red tape and crime is much worse there. Even Makati is very unsafe compared to BKK. Their families will feel like being expelled from paradise.

It seems that you have not visited Phils in quite a spell. Makati as a model of urban life? Is like saying that Soi Cowboy and its environs was, once upon a time, a good place to live.

There is Global City in Taguig, which is still Metro Manila. McKinley Hills and McKinley West. These are sprawling well designed cities resembling life in Southern California, Orange Country to be precise. Well paved streets with clear signage, wide clean sidewalks. Traffic that stops for pedestrians. No food carts encroaching on the pedestrians right of way.No motorcycles on the sidewalks. No Soi dogs, a indicator of urban decay.

High Street is bucolic and classy (only for pedestrians) a mile long full of restaurants and stores from all the corners of the world. There is even a Ferrari dealership nearby. As for safety, all the stores have security guards that pack heat. Even in some areas where there is a large influx of vehicles going in and out of parking lots, there are K-9 units specialized in sniffing explosives. All those layers of security are obvious but do not hinder freedom of movement. I would rather be safe that way than becoming a statistic.

True that the density of population in the Philippines is greater than in Thailand, they are calculating about 120 million Filipinos. True they have a Southern Muslim problem there they wisely defused for the time being.

Thailand has its own powder keg that periodically explodes to remind the elite in Bangkok that they need to offer them something in exchange for peace.

The fact that English is pervasive in Philippines and that they are accustomed to the American efficiency of business is another advantage that Thailand does not have.

Minimum salary in Phils is 300 pesos a day, about 7 US. Labor laws allow an employer to hire for only 5 months and then fire the worker without repercussions. Employees that stay beyond the 5 months are offered the equivalent Thai of 300 Baht per day.

Those and more are the advantages of doing biz in Phils. Why do you think that country is the second largest call center in the world?

[mikiea]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Having lived in the Philippines for over 8 years and now having lived here I can say that all I ever heard about Thailand being 20 years ahead of the PI in terms of infrastructure is quite true. Philippines is an expensive country with very high distribution costs. Electricity there was twice the price it is here, quality countrol is non existant and the corruption is as bad or worse than here. The country is not safe and health care might as well not exist. I had Japanese friends there. The wives were never allowed out unless going out with the company drivers. Philppines has a lot of catching up to do and that needs to start with the corrupt politicians.

[mikiea]

dude , to be honest the japan people do not let there wife's out no matter where they live .

[Local Drunk]

Maybe finally some knowledge of the Newton principle arrives in LOS:

The Toyota Motors Thailand company has released a statement denying tax evasion claims made by custom authorities.

Toyota may shift manufacturing hub for Fortuner from Thailand to Philippines

Thailand has missed a shift... and those shifty Japanese have out shifted the shiftiness of the Thais.

[Local Drunk]

The Japanese have had enough of Thailand, it's floods, corruption, lack of law and order, laziness, and unregulated businesses. Have you ever seen Japanese outside the Emporium area, Thonglor 55 or the factories outside central Bangkok in chauffeured cars and their country clubs? japanese never go around walking in Thailand except around Soi 55 and 24 clubs. They don't consider Thailand safe and very high risk. The Japanese are running from Thailand. They have had enough.

umm no, the Japanese are chauffeured around because they have a driver and they make use of it, not because its not safe to walk around. I have plenty of japanese friends who do not have a driver because they are not managerial level, they walk, take bts or taxi all over bangkok. Your views of japanese folks are completely off.

The areas you mentioned are just where a lot of them live and there are Japanese plazas around hence they are concentrated around that area mostly.

They do consider Thailand as high risk due to politics and the flood, but its even worse in Philippines. I doubt they would move there as there are less parts suppliers and Philippines is more prone to flooding and typhoons than Thailand. Not to mention the politics is even more corrupt, its like Thailand in the early 90s.

They have moved the yaris production already.

This is more to do with deciding where to put your money for 30 years. The factory in Thailand has been there donkeys years, it will need changes and upgrading, or you can start fresh on a greenfield.

So the Philippines can win by offering a clean slate and some benefits. The factory on Thailand will maybe stay running but their new focus maybe the Philippines. All new, all shiny, state of the art.

I went into the VW factory in China. The Audi line was 20 years old and massively cramped. The VW one next to it was brand new and very spacious. The process was very different. Upgrading something is often much harder than starting from a clean slate.

You're absolutely right about that...

[ramrod711]

Remember a new article on here a few months ago where top representatives of both Japanese and American auto manufacturers visited Burma? Japan promised to build a deep water port near Yangon and both Japan and the US bought large tracts of industrial land nearby.

Yingluck, then the PM was expecting the port to be built more directly across from Bangkok so it could be used for Thai shipping of cars and other things.

The US and Japan are getting tired of Thailand kissing up to China while the US and Japan struggle to keep China from bullying fisheries, flight routes and ownership of islands. End of.

The manufacturers are tired of high import duties for parts, and tired of floods, regulations, and high taxes on new cars.

Neither Japan nor the US tend to get into bed with politically unstable countries, to put it politely.

Thailand will eventually be the hub of hubba.

I'm sure they're keeping an eye on this as well,800 million baht worth of gear boxes, fine 1.6 billion baht. Twice the cost of the parts? Please.

BANGKOK: -- Executives of Isuzu Motors (Thailand) and Tripetch Isuzu Sales companies met with special case public prosecutors for about two hours yesterday.

But no details of their discussion were available as both sides declined to offer any information.

Thai PBS earlier reported that the two companies were accused by the Customs Department and the Department of Special Investigation of present false statements to evade taxes regarding the import of automobile spare parts worth about 1,600 million baht into the country.

According to Customs Department, about 50,000 gearboxes worth about 300 million baht were imported from the Philippines into the country in 2004 beyond the amount declared and another 50,000 gearboxes worth about 500 million baht were imported into the country not in accordance with the declared specifications.

The companies were demanded to pay back taxes and fines amounting to 1.6 billion baht. However, the statue of limitations of the case is due to expire on November 13.

[Local Drunk]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Having lived in the Philippines for over 8 years and now having lived here I can say that all I ever heard about Thailand being 20 years ahead of the PI in terms of infrastructure is quite true. Philippines is an expensive country with very high distribution costs. Electricity there was twice the price it is here, quality countrol is non existant and the corruption is as bad or worse than here. The country is not safe and health care might as well not exist. I had Japanese friends there. The wives were never allowed out unless going out with the company drivers. Philppines has a lot of catching up to do and that needs to start with the corrupt politicians.

Labor is cheap in the Philippines... That's why they come to Thailand to get jobs. That's what most companies are looking for... Cheap labour costs. Compare the wages of a Philippine teacher to the wages of a backpacker or tourist English teacher in Thailand from an English native speaking country...Those from the Phils think they are in El Dorado. Native speakers think... I can't even afford a decent pack of smokes.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Local Drunk

[EyesWideOpen]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

I always got impression that the Phillipines is quite a lot more unsafe than Thailand

Manufacturing issues aside, the women are red hot.. :-)

Have to recheck the news, but I thought Ford had pulled out

of the Philippines due to corruption that makes Thailand seem

wonderful by comparison....

[thailiketoo]

This is absolute RUBBISH.

Thailand is pricing itself out of markets.

You obviously know nothing about costs of importing and exporting and you obviously know nothing about the cost of keeping stupid paperwork up to date for immigration.

The cost of labour is no longer CHEAP or competitive in Thailand and LABOUR is what drives business to seek other countries for manufacturing.

May I suggest you READ OTHER NEWS , other than your own boss's dictates?

See your RUBBISH! and raise you one rubbish. Cost of paperwork is one computer and one clerk. Cost of selling cars in Thailand is less than importing them from Philippines. Suggest you read other news that is not from the Philippine chamber of commerce.

[bkkjohnny69]

Firstly, is it acceptable to call Japanese "Japs" in this day and age, I think not....

I run a company both here and in Manila and do business with the manufacturer in question. There is far more down time due to natural disasters and weather in PI than there is here.

This is nothing more than the "Toyota Way", anyone that deals with them will know how they "manage costs" regularly, this is no different. This is purely posturing on their part.

Most of your post I agree with.

The first sentence - certainly it's more acceptable than to be told by the PC fraternity what one can and cannot say.

I'm far from being PC or telling people what to say, but having lived in Tokyo, I know how offensive that term actually is to the Japanese.

Some may not realise this, others will know full well how offensive it is.... It's just not something that belongs on a public forum.

People can take this information and do what they want with it, each to their own.

[7Heaven]

means that Fortuner will be more expensive to buy in Thailand

[Tomtomtom69]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Having lived in the Philippines for over 8 years and now having lived here I can say that all I ever heard about Thailand being 20 years ahead of the PI in terms of infrastructure is quite true. Philippines is an expensive country with very high distribution costs. Electricity there was twice the price it is here, quality countrol is non existant and the corruption is as bad or worse than here. The country is not safe and health care might as well not exist. I had Japanese friends there. The wives were never allowed out unless going out with the company drivers. Philppines has a lot of catching up to do and that needs to start with the corrupt politicians.

Come on mate!!

Don't spoil a good Thai-bashing thread with something as booooring as facts!!

There is a lot of business in Philippines. The SECOND largest call centre place on the planet and many businesses are moving operations there because of labour costs.

Do you think they care about EMPLOYEE safety? The are other concerns and it is not the well being of staff.

Why are businesses looking elsewhere if Thailand was so great? It is not and it is not a Thai bashing thread.

If Toyota goes it could cause a bigger wave than a ripple. Look what happened to Australia when ONE company said it was closing. Now there will be NO CARS made in Australia at all.

True, but right now the talk is only about the Fortuner being manufactured elsewhere outside of Thailand, not necessarily all Toyota vehicles. I think Thailand will continue to be competitive in terms of pickup manufacturing (if nothing else and besides more than half of all vehicles sold in Thailand are pickups); I don't see that changing to the Philippines or Indonesia, two markets which have practically no pickups at all (for anyone who's ever been to either country that will be very obvious as soon as you step off the plane). Having said that, anything is possible, especially with greater incentives in other markets, lower wages and better political stability. Although the reasons for Australian automotive manufacturing soon coming to an end are very different to Toyota possibly moving Fortuner production away from Thailand to the Philippines (or elsewhere) the one thing both Thailand and Australia have in common is that neither one has a local car brand and are thus at the mercy of the foreign car makers, who can decide at any time to move away and close down local manufacturing if the conditions aren't right.

However, for now I don't see any big exodus by car makers from Thailand though - there are still too many positive enticements to keep manufacturing here. While some types of cars (like the Fortuner) may go, overall the industry still benefits from numerous government incentives, relatively low wages and a highly skilled workforce, the necessary supporting infrastructure and sufficient local and regional demand for it's products thus virtually guaranteeing sufficient output. Of course protectionist policies also help. Unfortunately Australia started killing its industry the moment it decided to lower import tariffs thus flooding the market with cheaper imports some 20-30 years ago; it only got worse with high wages and a strong local currency and limited local demand and foreign exports.

[Tomtomtom69]

means that Fortuner will be more expensive to buy in Thailand

Not necessarily. I think that the ASEAN common market i.e. FTA actually treats goods manufactured in member states fairly and thus no unfair tariff or non-tariff barriers are imposed. Only the addition of transport costs will make a difference.

Case in point are Malaysian manufactured Protons. They are no more expensive than any locally produced Japanese car in Thailand just that they are Malaysian manufactured and branded, shipped up via sea or land from Malaysia, with much the same taxes applied as towards locally produced vehicles.

Thai manufactured Ford Rangers are also reasonably priced in Vietnam, another example I am familiar with. Vietnam imposes very high taxes on all types of cars, irrespective of where they are manufactured, but pickups attract a much lower rate of tax than other types of vehicles such as sedans, hence the Ford Ranger there is not all that much more expensive than Ford Rangers sold in Thailand. Just a couple of thousand $ more to account for transport costs, marketing and sales costs in Vietnam etc.

[recycled]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Not Japanese, Korean.

[paddyjenkins]

means that Fortuner will be more expensive to buy in Thailand

Not necessarily. I think that the ASEAN common market i.e. FTA actually treats goods manufactured in member states fairly and thus no unfair tariff or non-tariff barriers are imposed. Only the addition of transport costs will make a difference.

Case in point are Malaysian manufactured Protons. They are no more expensive than any locally produced Japanese car in Thailand just that they are Malaysian manufactured and branded, shipped up via sea or land from Malaysia, with much the same taxes applied as towards locally produced vehicles.

Thai manufactured Ford Rangers are also reasonably priced in Vietnam, another example I am familiar with. Vietnam imposes very high taxes on all types of cars, irrespective of where they are manufactured, but pickups attract a much lower rate of tax than other types of vehicles such as sedans, hence the Ford Ranger there is not all that much more expensive than Ford Rangers sold in Thailand. Just a couple of thousand $ more to account for transport costs, marketing and sales costs in Vietnam etc.

The fact they aren't more expensive than a Toyota suggests very heavy taxes are imposed, because a Proton is far inferior to any Toyota. In Malaysia the Protons are a lot cheaper than a Toyota and only a minor part of the difference is down to tax.

[NativeSon360]

Toyota seem to be in the middle of moving totally out of Thailand.

Maybe this is why they released the news about Ford still being interested in LOS for its SEA production to sweeten the bitter news.

More like there will be plenty of ready built auto manufacturing plants for them to move into. But then again wouldn't they be questioning why the Japs are dumping Thailand?

Truth is, the Japs now don't have to build here to avoid the disgustingly high excise tariffs on motor vehicles once the AEC kicks in. They can move to more efficient SEA countries with cheaper salaries and better workforces. Then export to Thailand.

Thailand is going to be the big loser come the AEC.

Where did you get your degree in Economics?

[DeepInTheForest]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Personal safety is not the issue. It's Thailand's indolence about preventable natural events what the Japanese are not willing to put up indefinitely.

In the 9th. Century, when Angkor Wat had a population of 1 million, the Khmer designed and built a water management system that would prevent floods from ravaging Angkor and have an adequate catchment of water for the dry season. The system albeit not used, is extant around Angkor.

Fast forward to today.

Thailand is yet to have an acceptable flood control system in place. They have had centuries to device, built and perfect it but... they will rely on improvised knee-jerk band-aids (giant sand bags, save Bangkok, flood other areas, etc.) Karma or on summoning the wisdom of their ancestors in a coffin to help them.

But to do what is necessary to at least reduce the effects of floods on industry, commerce and life seems to be absent in the Thai psyche.

Thais have an elevated sense of self importance and that prevents them from using Dutch age old proven methods of water management. Ask the Dutch for help and Thailand will get the best know-how in the world and many years of successfully not only controlling floods, but also reclaiming land from the waters of the ocean. .

Will Thailand ever do that?

Never!!! Losing face is more important than losses that a flood can cause.

Ah, the old "the-Thais-won't-call-in-the-Dutch-experts-who-would-fix-everything" trope. Always associated with a pious denunciation of Thai national character defects.

Unfortunately for ThaiVisa posters who are fond of this narrative (and who never provide evidence of their assertions), it's not true.

In fact, Dutch experts are indeed involved in Thai flood planning. Here is a paper reporting the findings of a joint Dutch-Thai team:

http://www.enwinfo.nl/upload/ENW%20rapport%20Thailand%20(spread)%202.pdf

Here is the CV of a Dutch engineer who trains trainers in flood management in Thailand, among other activities:

http://nl.linkedin.com/pub/edward-frank/a/b94/279

Lastly, it is worth remembering that Dutch know-how is no panacea, as even the Dutch acknowledge. Posters here are fond of citing the "thousand years" of experience that the Netherlands has in fighting floods. But they had a Katrina-like disaster in 1953 that cost over a thousand lives. And their latest strategies embrace the realization that floods cannot be controlled, only redirected-- a concept that seems lost on many observers. Their latest agency is called "Room for the River", because its mandate is to work with the river instead of to oppose it.

Officials from as far away as China, Vietnam, Thailand and Bangladesh are currently consulting Dutch experts...

In even more bad news, all the experts agree that the rest of the world is limited in what we can actually learn from these new Dutch masters... it’s not as simple as cutting and pasting Dutch solutions onto ours. “That’s one thing that we talk about a lot,” says Stive.

“The industry tells us, ‘Look, you guys know so much. Help us transfer these concepts to other countries.’ Lesson number one is, you can’t just transfer a concept. You have to know what the context is. In Holland, we have very different problems to you. You have small catchment areas for your rivers and very hilly country so everything goes to the lowest point. We don’t have that problem. We’re just one low point.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/architecture/10769974/Flooded-Britain-how-can-Holland-help.html

My sense of things is that the auto companies will not abandon Thailand because of its infrastructure advantages, labor force, location and supply chains. Their forays into other countries are indeed looking for cost advantages, but for now will include a great deal of bluff, to exact concessions in terms of wages and tax levies. And this is not something new in global capitalism. One last thought: as egregiously corrupt as Thailand is, other countries in the area have this problem in abundance as well.

Edited October 28, 2014 by DeepInTheForest

[kurnell]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Not Japanese, Korean.

Not Korean, Japanese

[Thai at Heart]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Personal safety is not the issue. It's Thailand's indolence about preventable natural events what the Japanese are not willing to put up indefinitely.

In the 9th. Century, when Angkor Wat had a population of 1 million, the Khmer designed and built a water management system that would prevent floods from ravaging Angkor and have an adequate catchment of water for the dry season. The system albeit not used, is extant around Angkor.

Fast forward to today.

Thailand is yet to have an acceptable flood control system in place. They have had centuries to device, built and perfect it but... they will rely on improvised knee-jerk band-aids (giant sand bags, save Bangkok, flood other areas, etc.) Karma or on summoning the wisdom of their ancestors in a coffin to help them.

But to do what is necessary to at least reduce the effects of floods on industry, commerce and life seems to be absent in the Thai psyche.

Thais have an elevated sense of self importance and that prevents them from using Dutch age old proven methods of water management. Ask the Dutch for help and Thailand will get the best know-how in the world and many years of successfully not only controlling floods, but also reclaiming land from the waters of the ocean. .

Will Thailand ever do that?

Never!!! Losing face is more important than losses that a flood can cause.

Ah, the old "the-Thais-won't-call-in-the-Dutch-experts-who-would-fix-everything" trope. Always associated with a pious denunciation of Thai national character defects.

Unfortunately for ThaiVisa posters who are fond of this narrative (and who never provide evidence of their assertions), it's not true.

In fact, Dutch experts are indeed involved in Thai flood planning. Here is a paper reporting the findings of a joint Dutch-Thai team:

http://www.enwinfo.nl/upload/ENW%20rapport%20Thailand%20(spread)%202.pdf

Here is the CV of a Dutch engineer who trains trainers in flood management in Thailand, among other activities:

http://nl.linkedin.com/pub/edward-frank/a/b94/279

Lastly, it is worth remembering that Dutch know-how is no panacea, as even the Dutch acknowledge. Posters here are fond of citing the "thousand years" of experience that the Netherlands has in fighting floods. But they had a Katrina-like disaster in 1953 that cost over a thousand lives. And their latest strategies embrace the realization that floods cannot be controlled, only redirected-- a concept that seems lost on many observers. Their latest agency is called "Room for the River", because its mandate is to work with the river instead of to oppose it.

Officials from as far away as China, Vietnam, Thailand and Bangladesh are currently consulting Dutch experts...

In even more bad news, all the experts agree that the rest of the world is limited in what we can actually learn from these new Dutch masters... its not as simple as cutting and pasting Dutch solutions onto ours. Thats one thing that we talk about a lot, says Stive.

The industry tells us, Look, you guys know so much. Help us transfer these concepts to other countries. Lesson number one is, you cant just transfer a concept. You have to know what the context is. In Holland, we have very different problems to you. You have small catchment areas for your rivers and very hilly country so everything goes to the lowest point. We dont have that problem. Were just one low point.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/architecture/10769974/Flooded-Britain-how-can-Holland-help.html

My sense of things is that the auto companies will not abandon Thailand because of its infrastructure advantages, labor force, location and supply chains. Their forays into other countries are indeed looking for cost advantages, but for now will include a great deal of bluff, to exact concessions in terms of wages and tax levies. And this is not something new in global capitalism. One last thought: as egregiously corrupt as Thailand is, other countries in the area have this problem in abundance as well.

All the will in the world, be it Dutch, thai, or any other will not change a thing, if when 100 baht is offered to the solution, only at best 70 ends up being spent on the solution.

Yes the Dutch are involved. The pumps are bust and awaiting a budget to get fixed.

[Strangebrew]

It has to do with security and Freeport Zone in Subic bay. Since Subic bay freeport has port up and running and American style cross walks and working stoplights. Cheap educated work force most college level Housing is also cheap. Granted the roads need improvement which is underway now. The government is more stable than Thailand with less holidays.

[cheshiremusicman]

As an aside; maybe the shift of manufacture to the Philippines may at last eradicate the steering glitch on Fortuners (well, all pickups in Thailand really) that apparently makes it impossible to execute a thee point turn that bears any semblance to the necessary number of turns that gave the name to the manoeuvre in the first place ....................

Well 'Fab4', I've got to disagree with your comment. I've always found the turning circle on my Fortuner to be better than a lot of the saloon cars around. Mine is a 7 year old version, but I can't see that making much difference to my statment. Maybe some of the drivers are just too damned lazy to turn the steering wheel a touch more. 3 point turns in a Fortuner are a peice of pxxs!

[arthurwait]

The Japanese have had enough of Thailand, it's floods, corruption, lack of law and order, laziness, and unregulated businesses. Have you ever seen Japanese outside the Emporium area, Thonglor 55 or the factories outside central Bangkok in chauffeured cars and their country clubs? japanese never go around walking in Thailand except around Soi 55 and 24 clubs. They don't consider Thailand safe and very high risk. The Japanese are running from Thailand. They have had enough.

You've never been to Sri Racha have you ?

Or Nana or patpong or Cowboy ?

[Tomtomtom69]

means that Fortuner will be more expensive to buy in Thailand

Not necessarily. I think that the ASEAN common market i.e. FTA actually treats goods manufactured in member states fairly and thus no unfair tariff or non-tariff barriers are imposed. Only the addition of transport costs will make a difference.

Case in point are Malaysian manufactured Protons. They are no more expensive than any locally produced Japanese car in Thailand just that they are Malaysian manufactured and branded, shipped up via sea or land from Malaysia, with much the same taxes applied as towards locally produced vehicles.

Thai manufactured Ford Rangers are also reasonably priced in Vietnam, another example I am familiar with. Vietnam imposes very high taxes on all types of cars, irrespective of where they are manufactured, but pickups attract a much lower rate of tax than other types of vehicles such as sedans, hence the Ford Ranger there is not all that much more expensive than Ford Rangers sold in Thailand. Just a couple of thousand $ more to account for transport costs, marketing and sales costs in Vietnam etc.

The fact they aren't more expensive than a Toyota suggests very heavy taxes are imposed, because a Proton is far inferior to any Toyota. In Malaysia the Protons are a lot cheaper than a Toyota and only a minor part of the difference is down to tax.

Not really - please compare the sticker prices of two comparable models. I don't have exact prices with me, but remember seeing a basic Proton available for 670,000 Baht or somewhere around that. A similar Toyota Corolla costs about the same for the baseline model.

You're just saying that a Proton is far inferior to a Toyota as your opinion. Inferior or not, they are not going to be priced at half the price of a Toyota, maybe only marginally cheaper. And while I agree that Toyota is a better, more established brand, I don't think Proton are rubbish either.

All cars are heavily taxed in Thailand, locally produced or not. Cars manufactured in other ASEAN countries benefit from low tariffs, those imported from third countries outside of ASEAN are taxed to the bone, with tariffs of up to 300% imposed. Clearly this is not the case with ASEAN, otherwise a Proton would cost 1.5-2 million Baht, which nobody would pay for as an "inferior" car as you say. Whatever slightly higher cost is also down to transport costs and marketing and sales costs, thus adding a few thousand dollars (i.e. 100,000 Baht or so) to the sticker price compared to a locally produced vehicle.

It's also worth noting that Proton only entered the Thai market around 2-3 years ago. Prior to that the only Protons on Thai roads were old, derelict models from 20 years ago or Malaysian registered ones, driving mainly near the southern border with Malaysia.

[paddyjenkins]

means that Fortuner will be more expensive to buy in Thailand

Not necessarily. I think that the ASEAN common market i.e. FTA actually treats goods manufactured in member states fairly and thus no unfair tariff or non-tariff barriers are imposed. Only the addition of transport costs will make a difference.

Case in point are Malaysian manufactured Protons. They are no more expensive than any locally produced Japanese car in Thailand just that they are Malaysian manufactured and branded, shipped up via sea or land from Malaysia, with much the same taxes applied as towards locally produced vehicles.

Thai manufactured Ford Rangers are also reasonably priced in Vietnam, another example I am familiar with. Vietnam imposes very high taxes on all types of cars, irrespective of where they are manufactured, but pickups attract a much lower rate of tax than other types of vehicles such as sedans, hence the Ford Ranger there is not all that much more expensive than Ford Rangers sold in Thailand. Just a couple of thousand $ more to account for transport costs, marketing and sales costs in Vietnam etc.

The fact they aren't more expensive than a Toyota suggests very heavy taxes are imposed, because a Proton is far inferior to any Toyota. In Malaysia the Protons are a lot cheaper than a Toyota and only a minor part of the difference is down to tax.

Not really - please compare the sticker prices of two comparable models. I don't have exact prices with me, but remember seeing a basic Proton available for 670,000 Baht or somewhere around that. A similar Toyota Corolla costs about the same for the baseline model.

You're just saying that a Proton is far inferior to a Toyota as your opinion. Inferior or not, they are not going to be priced at half the price of a Toyota, maybe only marginally cheaper. And while I agree that Toyota is a better, more established brand, I don't think Proton are rubbish either.

All cars are heavily taxed in Thailand, locally produced or not. Cars manufactured in other ASEAN countries benefit from low tariffs, those imported from third countries outside of ASEAN are taxed to the bone, with tariffs of up to 300% imposed. Clearly this is not the case with ASEAN, otherwise a Proton would cost 1.5-2 million Baht, which nobody would pay for as an "inferior" car as you say. Whatever slightly higher cost is also down to transport costs and marketing and sales costs, thus adding a few thousand dollars (i.e. 100,000 Baht or so) to the sticker price compared to a locally produced vehicle.

It's also worth noting that Proton only entered the Thai market around 2-3 years ago. Prior to that the only Protons on Thai roads were old, derelict models from 20 years ago or Malaysian registered ones, driving mainly near the southern border with Malaysia.

Ummm ....nope...I'm stating a fact...a proton is no where near Toyota in quality or performance or safety....the fact you say a basic model is 670,000 just proves my point, that it is a similar price only due to tax...a basic model in Malaysia is half that price

[recycled]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Not Japanese, Korean.

Not Korean, Japanese

My, my touchy, must be of English persuasion.

[Thingamabob]

Toyota seem to be in the middle of moving totally out of Thailand.

Maybe this is why they released the news about Ford still being interested in LOS for its SEA production to sweeten the bitter news.

More like there will be plenty of ready built auto manufacturing plants for them to move into. But then again wouldn't they be questioning why the Japs are dumping Thailand?

Truth is, the Japs now don't have to build here to avoid the disgustingly high excise tariffs on motor vehicles once the AEC kicks in. They can move to more efficient SEA countries with cheaper salaries and better workforces. Then export to Thailand.

Thailand is going to be the big loser come the AEC.

Good post, but I doubt they would relocate to the Philippines. All the same faults as Thailand plus a lot more.

[mike324]

The Japanese have had enough of Thailand, it's floods, corruption, lack of law and order, laziness, and unregulated businesses. Have you ever seen Japanese outside the Emporium area, Thonglor 55 or the factories outside central Bangkok in chauffeured cars and their country clubs? japanese never go around walking in Thailand except around Soi 55 and 24 clubs. They don't consider Thailand safe and very high risk. The Japanese are running from Thailand. They have had enough.

umm no, the Japanese are chauffeured around because they have a driver and they make use of it, not because its not safe to walk around. I have plenty of japanese friends who do not have a driver because they are not managerial level, they walk, take bts or taxi all over bangkok. Your views of japanese folks are completely off.

The areas you mentioned are just where a lot of them live and there are Japanese plazas around hence they are concentrated around that area mostly.

They do consider Thailand as high risk due to politics and the flood, but its even worse in Philippines. I doubt they would move there as there are less parts suppliers and Philippines is more prone to flooding and typhoons than Thailand. Not to mention the politics is even more corrupt, its like Thailand in the early 90s.

They have moved the yaris production already.

This is more to do with deciding where to put your money for 30 years. The factory in Thailand has been there donkeys years, it will need changes and upgrading, or you can start fresh on a greenfield.

So the Philippines can win by offering a clean slate and some benefits. The factory on Thailand will maybe stay running but their new focus maybe the Philippines. All new, all shiny, state of the art.

I went into the VW factory in China. The Audi line was 20 years old and massively cramped. The VW one next to it was brand new and very spacious. The process was very different. Upgrading something is often much harder than starting from a clean slate.

You're absolutely right about that...

One of the reason is to minimize the risk, but I believe the bigger reason is because Philippines is on the rise and they anticipate an increase in purchasing. But just back in August, there were articles stating that the government has kind of stalled with the road map for the automotive industry, tax incentives, etc etc and how to help grow the car sector. So car manufacturers are still not confident with the Philippine government as well. Production of Yaris did not stop in Thailand even though they move some of it to the Philippines, I believe the ones made in Philippines is mainly for domestic consumption not export.

Either way, I think Japanese companies likes to minimize their risk and they calculate everything down to the finest details. Just like after the flooding, instead of waiting for the government to fix the roads, some companies did so themselves on public roads with approval from government, so it won't effect their business and logistics.

[kurnell]

I see the Japanese women walking around everywhere with the kids in tow or bundled into a Baby Bjorn carrier. The men, however are soft (tee hee) and only travel by car and get dropped off at their Japanese only bars.

I doubt the Philippines is any safer

Not Japanese, Korean.

Not Korean, Japanese

My, my touchy, must be of English persuasion.

Enjoying it in your own little world are you?

[Oscar2]

The Japanese have had enough of Thailand, it's floods, corruption, lack of law and order, laziness, and unregulated businesses. Have you ever seen Japanese outside the Emporium area, Thonglor 55 or the factories outside central Bangkok in chauffeured cars and their country clubs? japanese never go around walking in Thailand except around Soi 55 and 24 clubs. They don't consider Thailand safe and very high risk. The Japanese are running from Thailand. They have had enough.

"They don't consider Thailand safe and very high risk. The Japanese are running from Thailand. They have had enough."

Sheer, unadulterated, Thai bashing nonsense.

what they are doing is diversifying. opening operations in Myanmar too.

we had some Japanese guests recently and they said generally speaking, on the Japanese news that Japan has taken a negative stance on Thailand ever since the floods.