Thailand to 'allow' second DNA test for British murder accused

[JLCrab]

How sad, just found Dave Millers facebook page, his friends and family are still updating, his brother posted just a couple of days ago and its clear with all the links and posts for the change.org petition that the whole family backed it 100%

To all of those troll posters here who kept belittling the petition and how in your views it made no difference. I hope you now feel ashamed.

https://www.facebook.com/dangerdaveuk

The change.org petition stated:

This being said, we demand a full independent investigation to be conducted by the government of the United Kingdom into these deaths.

The above demand most likely had little or no influence on the UK Government's decision to send an investigating team to Thailand as that decision was made according to documented UK FCO and Police chief's procedure and was probably well in the works before the petition was even started.

BTW the official UK Government Petition started by the same Mr. Harkins who started the Change.org petition now stands at 10 signatures up from 9 yesterday.

Exactly what point are you trying to make here?

You, JTJ, JDinAsia (same guy?) and co. are just trolling and apologising for the RTP's failures.

You all seem really miffed that the petition reached it's target. So much so that you'll pour scorn on another "official" one? Does that detract from the initial petition?

What a sad, pathetic little thicket of losers you all are.

The 100,000 signatures only would have impact if on an official UK petition. Whether the change.org petition had 100K or 200K wouldn't make any difference. I have been involved in situations in the USA involving petitions including one where the petition backers claimed they influenced the outcome of a negotiation and the chief negotiator later said that he was not even aware there was a petition.

[lausie]

The United Kingdom should verify whether or not they have been able to obtain their own DNA sample from the victims on arrival to the UK, and these samples should be used. Nobody with an average intelligent, or above, trusts the Thai police or the system in general

As much as want them to, I doubt the UK authorities will confirm either way as doing so might jeopardise matters.

I suspect (and hope) that they HAVE managed to obtain their own DNA profiles from the bodies, and hopefully a fully and thorough forensic examination may have found other DNA sources (e.g. skin under fingernails) so that they're not relying purely on semen found with Hannah.

[BoristheBlade]

Your boys are in trouble Mr Crab, big trouble

How sad, just found Dave Millers facebook page, his friends and family are still updating, his brother posted just a couple of days ago and its clear with all the links and posts for the change.org petition that the whole family backed it 100%

To all of those troll posters here who kept belittling the petition and how in your views it made no difference. I hope you now feel ashamed.

https://www.facebook.com/dangerdaveuk

The change.org petition stated:

This being said, we demand a full independent investigation to be conducted by the government of the United Kingdom into these deaths.

The above demand most likely had little or no influence on the UK Government's decision to send an investigating team to Thailand as that decision was made according to documented UK FCO and Police chief's procedure and was probably well in the works before the petition was even started.

BTW the official UK Government Petition started by the same Mr. Harkins who started the Change.org petition now stands at 10 signatures up from 9 yesterday.

Exactly what point are you trying to make here?

You, JTJ, JDinAsia (same guy?) and co. are just trolling and apologising for the RTP's failures.

You all seem really miffed that the petition reached it's target. So much so that you'll pour scorn on another "official" one? Does that detract from the initial petition?

What a sad, pathetic little thicket of losers you all are.

The 100,000 signatures only would have impact if on an official UK petition. Whether the change.org petition had 100K or 200K wouldn't make any difference. I have been involved in situations in the USA involving petitions including one where the petition backers claimed they influenced the outcome of a negotiation and the chief negotiator later said that he was not even aware there was a petition.

[boomerangutang]

It seems they are confident. The British have the DNA from the victims and they will be able to compare.

Let's hope the truth comes out and stop the speculation.

We hope the Brits have DNA taken from the victims, but I haven't seen confirmation of that from Brit officials. 2nd DNA test is probably an attempt at face-saving by Thai officialdom. With the Brits on the scene, the Burmese guys' DNA won't match the crime scene. When that is shown, Thai officials can say, "whoops, sorry, I guess the lab didn't do the first DNA samples correctly." ....and then the lab techies might be disciplined - though it's the top brass who are orchestrating the frame-up.

[kcirtapyelrah]

The United Kingdom should verify whether or not they have been able to obtain their own DNA sample from the victims on arrival to the UK, and these samples should be used. Nobody with an average intelligent, or above, trusts the Thai police or the system in general

Perhaps the police in the UK are following the normal protocol of not commenting on the details of an ongoing investigation?

Because if anything has proven the necessity of doing that it's this rumor mongering debacle.

They should verify whether they have the samples or not and these should be used..

Absolutely NOT!!

They are here as observers, there will be sufficient time and opportunity to release any information they

have at the appropriate time.

Showing your hand to the RTP before the end game is not a good idea.

Doing that would be the end game.

[bruceybonus]

It's sad to say but I now think that phone records could be a lot more conclusive than DNA!

[DennisF]

How sad, just found Dave Millers facebook page, his friends and family are still updating, his brother posted just a couple of days ago and its clear with all the links and posts for the change.org petition that the whole family backed it 100%

To all of those troll posters here who kept belittling the petition and how in your views it made no difference. I hope you now feel ashamed.

https://www.facebook.com/dangerdaveuk

The change.org petition stated:

This being said, we demand a full independent investigation to be conducted by the government of the United Kingdom into these deaths.

The above demand most likely had little or no influence on the UK Government's decision to send an investigating team to Thailand as that decision was made according to documented UK FCO and Police chief's procedure and was probably well in the works before the petition was even started.

BTW the official UK Government Petition started by the same Mr. Harkins who started the Change.org petition now stands at 10 signatures up from 9 yesterday.

Exactly what point are you trying to make here?

You, JTJ, JDinAsia (same guy?) and co. are just trolling and apologising for the RTP's failures.

You all seem really miffed that the petition reached it's target. So much so that you'll pour scorn on another "official" one? Does that detract from the initial petition?

What a sad, pathetic little thicket of losers you all are.

The 100,000 signatures only would have impact if on an official UK petition. Whether the change.org petition had 100K or 200K wouldn't make any difference. I have been involved in situations in the USA involving petitions including one where the petition backers claimed they influenced the outcome of a negotiation and the chief negotiator later said that he was not even aware there was a petition.

You really are a pompous ar5e aren't you??

Maybe if the only result was that the family felt a little comfort that so many people cared, it would have been enough impact for the caring people that signed.

Nit picking pseudo academic know-alls such as yourself should stay away from the human race, you really are surplus to requirements but, thank you for your time.

[Gonzo the Face]

Does anyone recall if the bodies were sent back to the UK before or after the two Burmese workers were arrested?

Before.

Which is a problem for the conspiracy theory that the two Burmese men had their DNA planted on the bodies because then the police would have had to do it around three weeks before the arrests; so they want to frame up these two guys, plant the "scapegoats" DNA in, ship the bodies out, wait around three weeks running around like headless chicken making blunder after blunder and then, and only then they say "A-HA! here's the killers!".

It doesn't look like a plausible scenario to me, specially because it would be thoroughly dependent in the complicity of the police and forensic experts in the UK to play along with it.

I think you missed my point.....My point is if the bodies were already back in the UK, the Brits would possibly have the opportunity to extract their own DNA sample. There is the possibility that the original sample extracted from the body and on file with the RTP was removed and replaced, when times were right, (perhaps after an arrangement had been reached) for a DNA sample from the 2 Workers to be substituted in the RTP files....Those samples so stated as coming from the body of the deceased would then be compared with that of the workers and walla a match. A possibly corrupt official , never suspecting such a backlash, just may think there would never be a problem, but now its damage control time.

And that, again, would necessitate the complicity of the UK police and forensic experts.

No it wouldn't ...... the switch would have been done here before the Brit team arrived. .......and would not have needed corroboration from the Brits. If there was not the current backlash. Remember this would have been done before the Brits were even talked about being involved.

[BritTim]

The United Kingdom should verify whether or not they have been able to obtain their own DNA sample from the victims on arrival to the UK, and these samples should be used. Nobody with an average intelligent, or above, trusts the Thai police or the system in general

If the UK has independent samples and/or other evidence (very uncertain), there are two ways they can play it.

1. They can keep their cards close to their chests, observe and ask questions, planning to present all their findings at the UK inquest in January.
2. They can make clear to the Thai authorities in private that they have evidence disproving the current RTP version of events, calling for a proper investigation and threatening to go public if the Thai authorities do not comply. The problem with that could be that the RTP concoct another fairy tale with the benefit of knowing the UK evidence they must work around.

[boomerangutang]

The 100,000 signatures only would have impact if on an official UK petition. Whether the change.org petition had 100K or 200K wouldn't make any difference. I have been involved in situations in the USA involving petitions including one where the petition backers claimed they influenced the outcome of a negotiation and the chief negotiator later said that he was not even aware there was a petition.

I don't agree. On the one hand, there are well-defined rules for numbers of petition-signers in regards to, for example, getting a referendum on a ballot. However, we're talking about over 100,000 individuals who want to make their voice heard. If any involved officials want to ignore that, that's they're choice, but anyone with a pulse, who is tangibly involved with this case should be affected by such a large number of concerned people. It's the petition and social-media type things like that which have forced the Thai PM and other Thai officials (reluctantly) to slow down railroading the Burmese scapegoats toward guilty verdicts.

Without such petitions and social media outcry, this case would have devolved like so many other badly investigated cover-ups in Thailand's recent history.

[JLCrab]

I stick for the most part to the legalities. I leave solving the case to the resident sleuths here.

[smokie36]

Seems like the Brits have analysed the evidence....seen the shambolic nature of it and concluded.....

Let's take this from the beginning again chaps.......

[longtom]

The one thing about this DNA discussion that strikes me:

In the beginning of the investigation, most observers where so disgusted about the police officer saying ´a Thai could never do that´ (and rightly so). But everybody jumped at the DNA result that the perpetrators where of asian origin, saying ´told you so, now we know it was not a westerner (farang)´!

So if you dismiss the samples taken as contaminated, this was obviously a wrong conclusion and it could have been a westerner.

Or could it be that most people are a bit prejudiced (without knowing any first hand facts) about who they want to be the killers?

[bruceybonus]

We invented the Police Force, a few centuries of experience have taught us how to conduct an investigation, especially one like this. This is definitely a case of slowly slowly catchee monkey

[JLCrab]

The Change.org petition maybe had lots of peripheral benefits and provided a show of moral support to the bereaved families. But that was not the wording of the petition. The petition was to make a demand of the UK Government PM's Office and FCO. On that score it probably had little effect as such procedures are designed to facilitate investigations into the Murder of UK Nationals anywhere in the world when there is little or no publicity surrounding such cases.

Seriously give it a break!!

The two other trolls had the good taste to stay away from this thread, why not do us all a favour and do the same!!

Because this is not your show and I will post when & where I feel like it as long as the Mods don't say otherwise.

[12DrinkMore]

Seems like the Brits have analysed the evidence....seen the shambolic nature of it and concluded.....

Let's take this from the beginning again chaps.......

Presumably you are referring to the bar stool sleuths on TV?

[oneday]

The only way this can be useful is if the UK police collect samples directly from the suspects. Next, I assume when the bodies were repatriated the British technicians gathered all the evidence they could from the young couple, including DNA. Finally the various samples have to be processed in a UK lab or an unbiased lab outside Thailand or a lab inside Thailand while being observed.

If all that comes to pass then I MAY consider the police have the right men.

[boomerangutang]

Here is an interesting question for you and extremely pertinent!

Why was Nom Sod EVER suspected to be prime suspect?

He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!, so why would the police ever connect him in the first place.

Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?

If you can answer this question then you have solved the case imo

You're either joking, or haven't been following these threads as many of us have, ....or you're buddies with Nomsod.

BB asks: "Why was Nom Sod ever suspected to be prime suspect?"

Answer: there are so many reasons, it could be put in a 300 page book.

BB: "He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!"

answer: extremely doubtful. His own dad said he was on the island that night, and Nomsod's alibi was as soggy as fresh milk.

BB: "Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?"

answer: Again, there are lots of proofs that Nomsod the party boy was entwined with the AC bar and therefore mixed with a lot of the young party-going farang who went there, including Sean, David and Hannah.

[JLCrab]

The 100,000 signatures only would have impact if on an official UK petition. Whether the change.org petition had 100K or 200K wouldn't make any difference. I have been involved in situations in the USA involving petitions including one where the petition backers claimed they influenced the outcome of a negotiation and the chief negotiator later said that he was not even aware there was a petition.

I don't agree. On the one hand, there are well-defined rules for numbers of petition-signers in regards to, for example, getting a referendum on a ballot. However, we're talking about over 100,000 individuals who want to make their voice heard. If any involved officials want to ignore that, that's they're choice, but anyone with a pulse, who is tangibly involved with this case should be affected by such a large number of concerned people. It's the petition and social-media type things like that which have forced the Thai PM and other Thai officials (reluctantly) to slow down railroading the Burmese scapegoats toward guilty verdicts.

Without such petitions and social media outcry, this case would have devolved like so many other badly investigated cover-ups in Thailand's recent history.

That's your opinion -- the petition was worded as a demand to the UK Government -- it wasn't a petition to keep the story in the headlines.

[RustBucket]

Methinks this is merely part of the dog and pony show to try to confirm no corruption.

To an intelligent person, this retest will mean nothing unless it is done completely without any assistance of the Thai authorities, and I mean ALL Thai authorities.

[boomerangutang]

....we're talking about over 100,000 individuals who want to make their voice heard. If any involved officials want to ignore that, that's they're choice, but anyone with a pulse, who is tangibly involved with this case should be affected by such a large number of concerned people. It's the petition and social-media type things like that which have forced the Thai PM and other Thai officials (reluctantly) to slow down railroading the Burmese scapegoats toward guilty verdicts.

Without such petitions and social media outcry, this case would have devolved like so many other badly investigated cover-ups in Thailand's recent history.

That's your opinion -- the petition was worded as a demand to the UK Government -- it wasn't a petition to keep the story in the headlines.

Either or both ways, the petition has done wonders.

[bruceybonus]

Here is an interesting question for you and extremely pertinent!

Why was Nom Sod EVER suspected to be prime suspect?

He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!, so why would the police ever connect him in the first place.

Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?

If you can answer this question then you have solved the case imo

You're either joking, or haven't been following these threads as many of us have, ....or you're buddies with Nomsod.

BB asks: "Why was Nom Sod ever suspected to be prime suspect?"

Answer: there are so many reasons, it could be put in a 300 page book.

BB: "He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!"

answer: extremely doubtful. His own dad said he was on the island that night, and Nomsod's alibi was as soggy as fresh milk.

BB: "Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?"

answer: Again, there are lots of proofs that Nomsod the party boy was entwined with the AC bar and therefore mixed with a lot of the young party-going farang who went there, including Sean, David and Hannah.

Wow, you couldn't have missed the point more!! I'm on your side Boomer. I think he is guilty as hell Read it again and you will realise that!

My point being; what made him a suspect in the first place? It's impossible for him to have been a prime suspect in a case with strangers in Koh Tao and be in BKK at the same time. He was made a suspect for the following reasons ???? When he said he was in BKK he should of then been made to answer allegations as to why he was prime suspect!

[JLCrab]

....we're talking about over 100,000 individuals who want to make their voice heard. If any involved officials want to ignore that, that's they're choice, but anyone with a pulse, who is tangibly involved with this case should be affected by such a large number of concerned people. It's the petition and social-media type things like that which have forced the Thai PM and other Thai officials (reluctantly) to slow down railroading the Burmese scapegoats toward guilty verdicts.

Without such petitions and social media outcry, this case would have devolved like so many other badly investigated cover-ups in Thailand's recent history.

That's your opinion -- the petition was worded as a demand to the UK Government -- it wasn't a petition to keep the story in the headlines.

Either or both ways, the petition has done wonders.

So someday maybe the government of UK or US or elsewhere will not take the demands of a petition seriously regardless of how it is worded or legitimate the demand because they will just say: Their demands needn't be taken seriously; they are really only out for publicity.

[bruceybonus]

Here is an interesting question for you and extremely pertinent!

Why was Nom Sod EVER suspected to be prime suspect?

He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!, so why would the police ever connect him in the first place.

Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?

If you can answer this question then you have solved the case imo

You're either joking, or haven't been following these threads as many of us have, ....or you're buddies with Nomsod.

BB asks: "Why was Nom Sod ever suspected to be prime suspect?"

Answer: there are so many reasons, it could be put in a 300 page book.

BB: "He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!"

answer: extremely doubtful. His own dad said he was on the island that night, and Nomsod's alibi was as soggy as fresh milk.

BB: "Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?"

answer: Again, there are lots of proofs that Nomsod the party boy was entwined with the AC bar and therefore mixed with a lot of the young party-going farang who went there, including Sean, David and Hannah.

Wow, you couldn't have missed the point more!! I'm on your side Boomer. I think he is guilty as hell Read it again and you will realise that!

My point being; what made him a suspect in the first place? It's impossible for him to have been a prime suspect in a case with strangers in Koh Tao and be in BKK at the same time. He was made a suspect for the following reasons ???? When he said he was in BKK he should of then been made to answer allegations as to why he was prime suspect!

Normally a prime suspect is a family member of the victim or business partner etc. Motive is normally what people look for to solve a case. For the police to have a complete stranger (nom sod) as a suspect they must have had their reasons! A dodgy cctv pic cannot be enough to satisfy a legit investigation

[Bleacher Bum East]

A couple of things that I think people who are following the case should keep in mind regarding the DNA testing of any person:

First, for a fair trial to take place, a person accused of a crime should always be allowed to independently test (if possible) the DNA taken from a crime scene, and to cross-examine the gathering, transportation, testing, results and storage of DNA samples and tests to be introduced as evidence by the prosecution.

Second, a DNA match does not in and of itself prove the person committed the crime. It is very good evidence, but not sufficient to prove guilt. And it is definitely does not prove that other persons who did not leave traces of DNA were not involved in the crime as well.

Third, the absence of a DNA match does not prove a person did not commit or was somehow involved in a crime. It just means the prosecution needs to prove his case beyond a reasonable doubt without the use of DNA evidence, which is what happens in the vast majority of criminal cases.

These points apply to anybody who is a suspect in any crime.

In this case, given all the information that is publicly available, I think it is reasonable to infer that there were "more than likely" more than two people involved in the crimes committed against Hannah and David.

"More than likely" is not beyond a reasonable doubt, but it is enough for investigators to base whether or not a case is closed or open on (if you think more than two people probably did it, it would make sense to keep looking even if you already have two suspects in hand). It can also be used by any suspects defense team to argue the possibility that somebody else committed the crime (if you can demonstrate that more than two people were probably involved, you can argue that it is possible the defendants were there but weren't the murderers, or argue this means they weren't involved at all).

BTW the reliability of DNA tests is always an issue as well in any DNA test anywhere in the world. Any defense lawyer can challenge that reliability through arguments regarding contamination, chain of evidence, bias in analysis, etc. The prosecution always has to be able to defend those challenges, in any criminal case, to establish that his DNA evidence is reliable.

[Luang]

Here is an interesting question for you and extremely pertinent!

Why was Nom Sod EVER suspected to be prime suspect?

He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!, so why would the police ever connect him in the first place.

Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?

If you can answer this question then you have solved the case imo

You're either joking, or haven't been following these threads as many of us have, ....or you're buddies with Nomsod.

BB asks: "Why was Nom Sod ever suspected to be prime suspect?"

Answer: there are so many reasons, it could be put in a 300 page book.

BB: "He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!"

answer: extremely doubtful. His own dad said he was on the island that night, and Nomsod's alibi was as soggy as fresh milk.

BB: "Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?"

answer: Again, there are lots of proofs that Nomsod the party boy was entwined with the AC bar and therefore mixed with a lot of the young party-going farang who went there, including Sean, David and Hannah.

Wow, you couldn't have missed the point more!! I'm on your side Boomer. I think he is guilty as hell Read it again and you will realise that!

My point being; what made him a suspect in the first place? It's impossible for him to have been a prime suspect in a case with strangers in Koh Tao and be in BKK at the same time. He was made a suspect for the following reasons ???? When he said he was in BKK he should of then been made to answer allegations as to why he was prime suspect!

Actually the so called Thai Police should have been asked those pertinent questions. But as the police, the Thai journalists aren't any good at their jobs either.

The whole place is just void of a single critical thought! it's all very very depressing. I'm honestly not wanting to bash but it's <deleted> frustrating particularly at times like this, where you witness so many vacuums across so many professions.

[joebrown]

The 100,000 signatures only would have impact if on an official UK petition. Whether the change.org petition had 100K or 200K wouldn't make any difference. I have been involved in situations in the USA involving petitions including one where the petition backers claimed they influenced the outcome of a negotiation and the chief negotiator later said that he was not even aware there was a petition.

I don't agree. On the one hand, there are well-defined rules for numbers of petition-signers in regards to, for example, getting a referendum on a ballot. However, we're talking about over 100,000 individuals who want to make their voice heard. If any involved officials want to ignore that, that's they're choice, but anyone with a pulse, who is tangibly involved with this case should be affected by such a large number of concerned people. It's the petition and social-media type things like that which have forced the Thai PM and other Thai officials (reluctantly) to slow down railroading the Burmese scapegoats toward guilty verdicts.

Without such petitions and social media outcry, this case would have devolved like so many other badly investigated cover-ups in Thailand's recent history.

That's your opinion -- the petition was worded as a demand to the UK Government -- it wasn't a petition to keep the story in the headlines.

I think it might be worth checking because I'm not 100% sure, but wasn't the internet petition handed in to 10 Downing Street the day after Cameron said he'd spoken to PM Thailand about sending UK police to assist/observe in the KT investigation. Either way, please stop the bickering. Far more intersting things are afoot at present.

[TTom911]

The 100,000 signatures only would have impact if on an official UK petition. Whether the change.org petition had 100K or 200K wouldn't make any difference. I have been involved in situations in the USA involving petitions including one where the petition backers claimed they influenced the outcome of a negotiation and the chief negotiator later said that he was not even aware there was a petition.

I don't agree. On the one hand, there are well-defined rules for numbers of petition-signers in regards to, for example, getting a referendum on a ballot. However, we're talking about over 100,000 individuals who want to make their voice heard. If any involved officials want to ignore that, that's they're choice, but anyone with a pulse, who is tangibly involved with this case should be affected by such a large number of concerned people. It's the petition and social-media type things like that which have forced the Thai PM and other Thai officials (reluctantly) to slow down railroading the Burmese scapegoats toward guilty verdicts.

Without such petitions and social media outcry, this case would have devolved like so many other badly investigated cover-ups in Thailand's recent history.

"Without such petitions and social media outcry, this case would have devolved like so many other badly investigated cover-ups in Thailand's recent history."

Sure as hell, YES !!

[kcirtapyelrah]

The United Kingdom should verify whether or not they have been able to obtain their own DNA sample from the victims on arrival to the UK, and these samples should be used. Nobody with an average intelligent, or above, trusts the Thai police or the system in general

If the UK has independent samples and/or other evidence (very uncertain), there are two ways they can play it.

1. They can keep their cards close to their chests, observe and ask questions, planning to present all their findings at the UK inquest in January.
2. They can make clear to the Thai authorities in private that they have evidence disproving the current RTP version of events, calling for a proper investigation and threatening to go public if the Thai authorities do not comply. The problem with that could be that the RTP concoct another fairy tale with the benefit of knowing the UK evidence they must work around.

I don't agree with pussy footing around, they should get it over with now, they may not have another opportunity.

[thailandchilli]

Just FYI, it is NOT correct that the police have NOT confirmed Nomsod or anyone else as the guilty party.

It is a speculative post about an RTP (maybe) on spacebook.

This tragic incident is getting closer to being resolved, IMHO, please can we stick to facts and not keep speculating, adding to the chinese whispers

and conspiracies.

Most of us on here believe much of the circumstantial evidence, we have to wait and see what transpires next.

Second guessing does not help anyone, I believe the family are watching this forum so I think a little sensitivity is in order.

Apologies for the rant guys and girls.

I'm also guessing that the family and Davids friends are keeping up to date on this forum as well as CSI, they keep David's facebook page updated and are very active on it. So yes lets make sure when posting that they may well read this also so sensitivity is the key. Unfortunately lacking in Jcrab but I'm sure they can take him for what he is. Somebody who has nothing better to do than quote law and pick holes in everything that doesn't fit in to a legal framework and sadly lacking in any form of sensitivity or support for the family.