Thailand to 'allow' second DNA test for British murder accused

[mercman24]

i think a lot of people are missing the obvious point, if the 2 guys were dna tested and passed as has been posted in these columns, then no way, can their dna suddenly change and they become number 1 suspects, it just does not happen, end of, so no case to answer.

[Luang]

The United Kingdom should verify whether or not they have been able to obtain their own DNA sample from the victims on arrival to the UK, and these samples should be used. Nobody with an average intelligent, or above, trusts the Thai police or the system in general

If the UK has independent samples and/or other evidence (very uncertain), there are two ways they can play it.

1. They can keep their cards close to their chests, observe and ask questions, planning to present all their findings at the UK inquest in January.
2. They can make clear to the Thai authorities in private that they have evidence disproving the current RTP version of events, calling for a proper investigation and threatening to go public if the Thai authorities do not comply. The problem with that could be that the RTP concoct another fairy tale with the benefit of knowing the UK evidence they must work around.

I don't agree with pussy footing around, they should get it over with now, they may not have another opportunity.

Agree. If they have it, then call them out...now!

[DarloKnight]

Just FYI, it is NOT correct that the police have NOT confirmed Nomsod or anyone else as the guilty party.

It is a speculative post about an RTP (maybe) on spacebook.

This tragic incident is getting closer to being resolved, IMHO, please can we stick to facts and not keep speculating, adding to the chinese whispers

and conspiracies.

Most of us on here believe much of the circumstantial evidence, we have to wait and see what transpires next.

Second guessing does not help anyone, I believe the family are watching this forum so I think a little sensitivity is in order.

Apologies for the rant guys and girls.

I'm also guessing that the family and Davids friends are keeping up to date on this forum as well as CSI, they keep David's facebook page updated and are very active on it. So yes lets make sure when posting that they may well read this also so sensitivity is the key. Unfortunately lacking in Jcrab but I'm sure they can take him for what he is. Somebody who has nothing better to do than quote law and pick holes in everything that doesn't fit in to a legal framework and sadly lacking in any form of sensitivity or support for the family.

Hope they are not checking on a certain FB page it made me sick yesterday seeing the pictures that should not be published 'in my opinion' to the public.

[Unconvinced]

Here is an interesting question for you and extremely pertinent!

Why was Nom Sod EVER suspected to be prime suspect?

He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!, so why would the police ever connect him in the first place.

Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?

If you can answer this question then you have solved the case imo

Him and his uncle were named as suspects initially:

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe/

Yeh but why? That question has never been answered!

The only reason it has not been answered is that the whole Tuvichien line of enquiry went from red hot to absolute zero literally overnight. Hence such questions were never asked again. Panya was then promoted entirely out of orbit, and the whole thing thereafter turned Burmese.

Luang has referenced the ThaiPBS article wherein that line of enquiry was frozen. To accompany that, I refer now to the Nation article of one day prior, an article well worth keeping, wherein Panya said they'd grilled the headman and were chasing the fleeing son:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-free-bar-owners-and-look-for-ex-village-hea-30243997.html

In separate reports, the temporarily on-the-ropes headman was quoted as saying he did not know where his son was now and did not know whether his son was involved in the murders. Wow! Other reports even named the speedboat he used to flee. Later, with new head coppers, the family got off the ropes and came out punching, and the story changed to: son was in Bangok the whole time.

So what's the guess why the RTP were fully focused on that bar and that family early and quickly? I don't know, but it's a small community and they may well have been tipped off to the full truth early and quickly.

Alternatively, they were totally mistaken and "misquoted" and, after a week in hiding, the son's flaky alibi produced by a family friend Thai lawyer of unquestionable integrity showed that this line of enquiry required no pursuit or explanation whatsoever, and don't ask us about it ever again.

[culicine]

It seems they are confident.

The British have the DNA from the victims and they will be able to compare.

Let's hope the truth comes out and stop the speculation.

Where does it say UK police have pure dna from the victims? Have a link to that? I hope they do, but how would that have collected it? I thought the initial samples were analysed in Singapore.

[JLCrab]

The 100,000 signatures only would have impact if on an official UK petition. Whether the change.org petition had 100K or 200K wouldn't make any difference. I have been involved in situations in the USA involving petitions including one where the petition backers claimed they influenced the outcome of a negotiation and the chief negotiator later said that he was not even aware there was a petition.

I don't agree. On the one hand, there are well-defined rules for numbers of petition-signers in regards to, for example, getting a referendum on a ballot. However, we're talking about over 100,000 individuals who want to make their voice heard. If any involved officials want to ignore that, that's they're choice, but anyone with a pulse, who is tangibly involved with this case should be affected by such a large number of concerned people. It's the petition and social-media type things like that which have forced the Thai PM and other Thai officials (reluctantly) to slow down railroading the Burmese scapegoats toward guilty verdicts.

Without such petitions and social media outcry, this case would have devolved like so many other badly investigated cover-ups in Thailand's recent history.

That's your opinion -- the petition was worded as a demand to the UK Government -- it wasn't a petition to keep the story in the headlines.

I think it might be worth checking because I'm not 100% sure, but wasn't the internet petition handed in to 10 Downing Street the day after Cameron said he'd spoken to PM Thailand about sending UK police to assist/observe in the KT investigation. Either way, please stop the bickering. Far more intersting things are afoot at present.

somebody said that those who belittle the petition should be ashamed of themselves because it has provided solace to the families of the deceased and kept the story active. My preferred response would have been 7 letters but such is not my style. Now you can all go back to the interesting issue of when the phony DNA was planted.

[DennisF]

The one thing about this DNA discussion that strikes me:

In the beginning of the investigation, most observers where so disgusted about the police officer saying ´a Thai could never do that´ (and rightly so). But everybody jumped at the DNA result that the perpetrators where of asian origin, saying ´told you so, now we know it was not a westerner (farang)´!

So if you dismiss the samples taken as contaminated, this was obviously a wrong conclusion and it could have been a westerner.

Or could it be that most people are a bit prejudiced (without knowing any first hand facts) about who they want to be the killers?

They were indeed suspect, if not contaminated, as they were collected by non specialist people.

Therefore it is a reasonable assumption that the Asian comment is also wrong.

Your last sentence is a bit presumptuous, I sincerely believe that the majority of posters on here, trolls excluded, are interested

only in getting the REAL killers off the streets before they do it again.

Who cares if they are white, black, brown or green, they need locking up or culling.

On saying that, circumstantial evidence is becoming a bit overwhelming for one particular high flyer but, innocent until etc...

[tezzainoz]

I strongly worry that what could have happened is the myanmar guys fluids etc were planted on the victim. That would explain why police would allow the test. How would the Brit police have a way around this? In fact by pushing for second test they could be doing more damage if this is the case. The headline BRIT TEST CONFIRM MYANMAR MATCH

With my knowledge of the RTP, and the fact these 2 scapegoats where arrested way after the girls body was returned to England, they would not have even though in their wildest dreams this was going to happen

so why go to the expense of destroying any evidence in her body, when that very act of this would leave proof for an after inspection it had been done

a good examination will find even small amounts of DNA as the birth canal is very deep and spern is made up of million upon millions of spermicides, the chance of getting it all is incredibly low

As it was death by murder British law requires a British doctor to give a medical check and paper work so a British Death certificate can be issued

As DNA can begotten so easy in this day and age, a cut of hair, sweat on glass etc etc

I am sure by know the British Police already have samples, but they want every thing to appear inside their agreement with the RTP to keep diplomacy in tact

British Police get promotions in the force by solving cases, not with money like in RTP

So you can bet they will do a great job

a good conclusion in their favour can mean a promotion

The conclusion that these scapegoats are guilty would be in the lower grades of the Police and there is no way the higher boys will go down with them

When the going gets tough, the tough get going, and blame every thing on the lower grade RTP

So if things are looking bad for the RTP

The boys at the top will want a problem to happen so they can put the blame on some lower grade police

[joebrown]

Having tried to read and digest all the news and postings on this case I've come to the conclusion that these 2 Myanmar guys may have been selected to be scapegoats at a very early stage in the chain of events. It seems everyone knew they played guitar, smoked, drank beer and frequented the beach in close proximity to where the bodies were found. They were also bar workers and illegal immigrants who fled the police when they played takraw with their friends. They were an easy target for a 'frame up' especially if the local cop/bag man was involved. When I watched the re-enactment charade they came across as being in a total daze, if not in a state of shock to the extent they had to be 'directed' by the RTP. I'll eat 'humble pie' if I'm wrong, but I think I'll be eating fried rice instead when this whole unsavoury casee is solved.

[Minnehaha]

The Thai police strategy has worked on me.

I can't take any more of it. I dont want to read anything except a credibly sourced news bit that says there is a DNA match, motive has been identified, and hopefully evidence of an accused tied to a weapon.

Wait a tick... that was already reported.

Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrr!

[lausie]

The United Kingdom should verify whether or not they have been able to obtain their own DNA sample from the victims on arrival to the UK, and these samples should be used. Nobody with an average intelligent, or above, trusts the Thai police or the system in general

If the UK has independent samples and/or other evidence (very uncertain), there are two ways they can play it.

1. They can keep their cards close to their chests, observe and ask questions, planning to present all their findings at the UK inquest in January.
2. They can make clear to the Thai authorities in private that they have evidence disproving the current RTP version of events, calling for a proper investigation and threatening to go public if the Thai authorities do not comply. The problem with that could be that the RTP concoct another fairy tale with the benefit of knowing the UK evidence they must work around.

I don't agree with pussy footing around, they should get it over with now, they may not have another opportunity.

Agree. If they have it, then call them out...now!

I don't agree, it has to be (and will be) a measured approach. Giving out info willy nilly before they are fully prepared will give leeway to create fake alibis (read: more dubious CCTV pics) etc.

We want to be in a position where 'evidence' can be batted back and rubbished IN FULL, not peacemeal.

[DennisF]

It seems they are confident.

The British have the DNA from the victims and they will be able to compare.

Let's hope the truth comes out and stop the speculation.

Where does it say UK police have pure dna from the victims? Have a link to that? I hope they do, but how would that have collected it? I thought the initial samples were analysed in Singapore.

Short answer is nobody really knows, its conjecture.

The bodies may have been embalmed before transportation ( as is a requirement) but embalming can be just the upper body and on and on until complete embalming,

which would probably destroy any DNA.

As embalming is rare in Thailand ( supposedly, the chances of a full embalmed cadaver appears unlikely and it is SOP for citizens who have died under

suspicious circumstances to have an autopsy, with the next of kin permission, of course.

Given that scenario, it is HOPED by many that an autopsy was performed and PERHAPS DNA was retrieved.

Pure speculation from anyone who insists that the bobbies have their own DNA but, it is a strong possibility, no ,more than that.

If indeed they have, the smell of the sh1t as it leaves the fan will make a 5 year old fish sauce seem aromatic.

[tezzainoz]

The United Kingdom should verify whether or not they have been able to obtain their own DNA sample from the victims on arrival to the UK, and these samples should be used. Nobody with an average intelligent, or above, trusts the Thai police or the system in general

If the UK has independent samples and/or other evidence (very uncertain), there are two ways they can play it.

1. They can keep their cards close to their chests, observe and ask questions, planning to present all their findings at the UK inquest in January.
2. They can make clear to the Thai authorities in private that they have evidence disproving the current RTP version of events, calling for a proper investigation and threatening to go public if the Thai authorities do not comply. The problem with that could be that the RTP concoct another fairy tale with the benefit of knowing the UK evidence they must work around.

I don't agree with pussy footing around, they should get it over with now, they may not have another opportunity.

Agree. If they have it, then call them out...now!

You forget diplomacy is more important than a quick solution

[culicine]

Having tried to read and digest all the news and postings on this case I've come to the conclusion that these 2 Myanmar guys may have been selected to be scapegoats at a very early stage in the chain of events. It seems everyone knew they played guitar, smoked, drank beer and frequented the beach in close proximity to where the bodies were found. They were also bar workers and illegal immigrants who fled the police when they played takraw with their friends. They were an easy target for a 'frame up' especially if the local cop/bag man was involved. When I watched the re-enactment charade they came across as being in a total daze, if not in a state of shock to the extent they had to be 'directed' by the RTP. I'll eat 'humble pie' if I'm wrong, but I think I'll be eating fried rice instead when this whole unsavoury casee is solved.

This is what I don't understand. Why weren't they the first to be dna tested if they were hot suspects? Yet their results supposedly cam several weeks after the murder. They also appear to be in the first batch who were tested, and deemed cleared - this was roughly 200 persons. Surely they were in that first group. Then their dna is supposedly found positive in world record time (were they tested again, and somehow found positive the second time. No wonder the prosecutors have a major headache!

[Gandtee]

What will a second test prove if the first one was fabricated?

Are they saying that the lab got it wrong?

Or are they looking for a way out?

There is a possibility that the DNAs were switched possibly.

[Bleacher Bum East]

It's very interesting to go back and read the news reports about the investigation from the days right after the murders.

Within 2 days of the murder, a group of suspects were identified and DNA tested, including 3 men who were seen drinking on the beach near the crime scene (identified in the reports as the primary suspects at the time).

These three men, who were not identified by name in the news reports, were interrogated twice, DNA tested and not matched, and released.

In addition, there was discussion of a second murder weapon other than the hoe, which was thought to be a metal object used to bludgeon the victims.

Google "Koh Tao murders, Still no arrests, no DNA matches, September 18" and read all the reports for that day and the couple of days beforehand.

I think that some reasonable inferences can be drawn from those reports. They would certainly beg a few questions at least.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Bleacher Bum East

[jabis]

Here is an interesting question for you and extremely pertinent!

Why was Nom Sod EVER suspected to be prime suspect?

He was in Bangkok!!!!!!!!!, so why would the police ever connect him in the first place.

Most murders are committed by people that you know. However, Nom Sod has no connection to the suspects whatsoever, so why was he suspected?

If you can answer this question then you have solved the case imo

Him and his uncle were named as suspects initially:

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/police-now-rule-koh-tao-headmans-son-murder-suspect-turn-foreign-tourists-probe/

Yeh but why? That question has never been answered!

The only reason it has not been answered is that the whole Tuvichien line of enquiry went from red hot to absolute zero literally overnight. Hence such questions were never asked again. Panya was then promoted entirely out of orbit, and the whole thing thereafter turned Burmese.

Luang has referenced the ThaiPBS article wherein that line of enquiry was frozen. To accompany that, I refer now to the Nation article of one day prior, an article well worth keeping, wherein Panya said they'd grilled the headman and were chasing the fleeing son:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-free-bar-owners-and-look-for-ex-village-hea-30243997.html

In separate reports, the temporarily on-the-ropes headman was quoted as saying he did not know where his son was now and did not know whether his son was involved in the murders. Wow! Other reports even named the speedboat he used to flee. Later, with new head coppers, the family got off the ropes and came out punching, and the story changed to: son was in Bangok the whole time.

So what's the guess why the RTP were fully focused on that bar and that family early and quickly? I don't know, but it's a small community and they may well have been tipped off to the full truth early and quickly.

Alternatively, they were totally mistaken and "misquoted" and, after a week in hiding, the son's flaky alibi produced by a family friend Thai lawyer of unquestionable integrity showed that this line of enquiry required no pursuit or explanation whatsoever, and don't ask us about it ever again.

The promotion of at the time Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen, now serving as Assistant Comissioner-General, did not come "out of orbit" as he was an endorsed successor to the post. It was announced when the Maj Gen Ong-art Piewruangnon was moved to inactive post, that his retirement will happen on 30th of September, the same day a sh*tload of RTP provincial as well regional top officers were cycled.

Though I do agree with you that with the appointment of new head of investigation, the ongoing strategy went from investigating ~10 individuals (including Thai,foreign,legal & illegal migrants, this according to last reports from Lt-Gen Mamen), to this "DNA-blame game" only participated by the illegal migrants.

[poweratradio]

It seems they are confident.

The British have the DNA from the victims and they will be able to compare.

Let's hope the truth comes out and stop the speculation.

Doesn't seem like there is anything that will please the armchair detectives on here from their speculations. They will cry foul no matter what now! No pleasing them until the two are released and there will be no suspects at all.

[AleG]

It seems they are confident.

The British have the DNA from the victims and they will be able to compare.

Let's hope the truth comes out and stop the speculation.

Doesn't seem like there is anything that will please the armchair detectives on here from their speculations. They will cry foul no matter what now! No pleasing them until the two are released and there will be no suspects at all.

I wonder how many criminals have this keyboard Columbos have put behind bars.

At a guess I'd say between zero and none, collectively.

[Tazwa]

What's with these posts in red font saying that the father admitted his son was on the island the night of the murder?

Surely he never said this. I thought getting proof of this was the Holy Grail that CSILA have been chasing since day 1.

I recall news reports in the early days that can be summarised something like this:

The son was thought to have fled the island and was hiding in Bangkok. The father said he didn't know where his son was on the night of the murder. The father then made a statement suggesting that his son had returned to Bangkok to study. Whether he had 'returned' prior to the murders or just after the murders was unclear from the way it was reported.

I'll happily stand to be corrected.

[thailandchilli]

It seems they are confident.

The British have the DNA from the victims and they will be able to compare.

Let's hope the truth comes out and stop the speculation.

Doesn't seem like there is anything that will please the armchair detectives on here from their speculations. They will cry foul no matter what now! No pleasing them until the two are released and there will be no suspects at all.

Did you read the title of this thread? It was posted for us to discuss and speculate, pretty sure thats what a forums for.

[draftvader]

Kudos to JLCrab for his continued posting on this thread. I may not agree with some of his positioning but he is still here steadfast in his ways. More than can be said for our other protagonists. Where are they today? Touch busy again...or packing?

[binjalin]

test the 'son'

[jdinasia]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

Many people were doubting the tests "came back too fast" etc

[Thai at Heart]

It seems they are confident.

The British have the DNA from the victims and they will be able to compare.

Let's hope the truth comes out and stop the speculation.

I would doubt that. The bodies have been embalmed and transferred home.

I would imagine the only samples are the originals. However, at the end of the day, sperm is sperm. If they haven't forced the accused to produce in a cup, then there are going to be some very red faces around.

[jdinasia]

A second test to compare with what. That is the key thing. No-one is doubting the tests. Everyone is doubting the samples which they were compared with. Where did these samples come from?

And where / who will conduct the second gathering of saliva or whatever from the two Myanmar boys, who will be present, will the media be present.

And who will be there to guarantee that it's not swapped or whatever in the laboratory?

For credibility it would be better if the officers from UK were present at every step. Will it happen? Will the UK police or the UK Gov't speak up and insist on being present? It's also an opportunity for them to try to get a clearer picture / get some (not all) answers.

Where's Khunying Porntip?

Far too busy desperately endorsing fake Bomb Detectors already comprehensibly denounced by Governments worldwide and the "manufacturers" jailed and fined.

Patrick

O.K. so that was rubbish and she clearly was wrong but don't take away from her credibility as a forensic pathologist.

It doesn't?

[Number 3]

Having tried to read and digest all the news and postings on this case I've come to the conclusion that these 2 Myanmar guys may have been selected to be scapegoats at a very early stage in the chain of events. It seems everyone knew they played guitar, smoked, drank beer and frequented the beach in close proximity to where the bodies were found. They were also bar workers and illegal immigrants who fled the police when they played takraw with their friends. They were an easy target for a 'frame up' especially if the local cop/bag man was involved. When I watched the re-enactment charade they came across as being in a total daze, if not in a state of shock to the extent they had to be 'directed' by the RTP. I'll eat 'humble pie' if I'm wrong, but I think I'll be eating fried rice instead when this whole unsavoury casee is solved.

They were not actually in close proximity. CSI page posted measurements from where the lads were said to have been strumming to where David and Hannah were found. It was also reported from meteorological readings that moonlight was low that night and visibility in that whole area that they were pinpointed, made it impossible to see that far along the beach. Again you can check this out on csi in detail though.

[jdinasia]

JTJ and jdinasia!! Please come around and explain this one to us!!

Did you not read the article??

[metisdead]

A post with messed quotes has been removed as well as the replies.

[catweazle]

This will only be of help to find out the truth if an independent British team has taken their own samples of body fluids found inside Hannah.

At this point I would also like to remind everyone of the story where some innocent hilltribe men were charged and executed for a rape and murder in Chiang Mai, despite the fact that they were more than one km away from the crime scene at the time of the murder and had a substancial alibi and witnesses... In that case the RTP tried to jerk one of the accused off in a failed attempt to extract semen that would be placed inside the victim at the morgue. The RTP will do whatever necessary to cover their backs and to keep that 120m hush money.