UN political chief criticizes Israel for new settlement plans

[Ulysses G.]

Wake up. There is nothing "ad hominem" about exposing dishonest, counterfactual posts.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[metisdead]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed:

14) You will not post any copyrighted material except as fair use laws apply (as in the case of news articles). Please only post a link, the headline and the first three sentences.

[Jay Sata]

Canute could not stop the incoming tide anymore than Zionist propaganda will change world opinion.

70 % of the countries in the world recognise Palestine.

That number says it all.

[jdinasia]

Israel is full of Jews. It always attracts more than its share of hate.

I neither hate Israel nor Jews. I do completely despise Israel's actions. The era when you can occupy another country (yes country) and illegally settle their lands, lock up children etc etc is over.

[Jingthing]

Israel is full of Jews. It always attracts more than its share of hate.

I neither hate Israel nor Jews. I do completely despise Israel's actions. The era when you can occupy another country (yes country) and illegally settle their lands, lock up children etc etc is over.

Please when you make statements like that, specify exactly what lands you are making these charges about. Gaza? West Bank? Do you also include ISRAEL?

[jdinasia]

Israel is full of Jews. It always attracts more than its share of hate.

I neither hate Israel nor Jews. I do completely despise Israel's actions. The era when you can occupy another country (yes country) and illegally settle their lands, lock up children etc etc is over.

Please when you make statements like that, specify exactly what lands you are making these charges about. Gaza? West Bank? Do you also include ISRAEL?

Read the statement, I have previously stated Israel has a right to exist. I would limit that to the 1947 borders

Additionally I would not allow the destruction of buildings built on occupied land other than synagogues.

Edited November 10, 2014 by jdinasia

[Jingthing]

Israel is full of Jews. It always attracts more than its share of hate.

I neither hate Israel nor Jews. I do completely despise Israel's actions. The era when you can occupy another country (yes country) and illegally settle their lands, lock up children etc etc is over.

Please when you make statements like that, specify exactly what lands you are making these charges about. Gaza? West Bank? Do you also include ISRAEL?

Read the statement, I have previously stated Israel has a right to exist. I would limit that to the 1947 borders

Additionally I would not allow the destruction of buildings built on occupied land other than synagogues.

What the new "Palestine" will be Judenfrei?

[Jingthing]

No more than the territory stolen by Israel is Arab free

Israel includes 20 percent Arab citizens.

Anyway, destroying Jewish temple buildings sounds kind of harsh. Why not turn them into discos?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Jingthing

[Morch]

Please when you make statements like that, specify exactly what lands you are making these charges about. Gaza? West Bank? Do you also include ISRAEL?

Read the statement, I have previously stated Israel has a right to exist. I would limit that to the 1947 borders

Additionally I would not allow the destruction of buildings built on occupied land other than synagogues.

What the new "Palestine" will be Judenfrei?

No more than the territory stolen by Israel is Arab free

Disregarding your choice of words, you may want to check that point with the Palestinians - I do not think that their plans for a national home involve dealing with a significant Jewish minority. Most formulations of possible peace accords stress either the clearing of Israeli presence in Palestinian controlled territories, or territory exchanges which would lead to the very same thing. While this might not be a bad idea, less chances for conflagration and all that, it is not exactly the same as the situation within Israel.

The Hamas, of course, has a bit more straightforward approach to this issue (the 60 minutes interview with Khaled Mashal is a good example).

[Ulysses G.]

Israel is full of Jews. It always attracts more than its share of hate.

I neither hate Israel nor Jews.

Whether you do or don't is immaterial. There are plenty of Israel's critics that do and plenty that are dishonest about it to manipulate public opinion against them.

You have claimed that the Hamas charter is virtually the same as the Likud charter which is complete nonsense. The Hamas charter calls for genocide and the Likud charter does not. In fact, Likud does not even rule out a Palestinian state.

You have also poo-pooed the idea that Palestinian radicals want to commit genocide against Israelis, which they have clearly said repeatedly that they do. Either you are making stuff up or you just have no clue. Either way, I don't take your words - or your comrade's words - at face value.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Israel is full of Jews. It always attracts more than its share of hate.

I neither hate Israel nor Jews.

Whether you do or don't is immaterial. There are plenty of Israel's critics that do and plenty that are dishonest about it to manipulate public opinion against them.

That's definitely true. I actually appreciate the Israel demonizers that are open and honest about their hatred of Jews. That's easier to deal with than STEALTH antisemites who dance around it so much they always leave a bit of plausible deniability.

[jdinasia]

Israel is full of Jews. It always attracts more than its share of hate.

I neither hate Israel nor Jews.

Whether you do or don't is immaterial. There are plenty of Israel's critics that do and plenty that are dishonest about it to manipulate public opinion against them.

That's definitely true. I actually appreciate the Israel demonizers that are open and honest about their hatred of Jews. That's easier to deal with than STEALTH antisemites who dance around it so much they always leave a bit of plausible deniability.

The same can be said about supporters of Israel who use any excuse to cry "anti-Semitism"

[Ulysses G.]

Israel has PLENTY of evidence of actual and obvious anti-Semitism to point to. They don't really need to make things up.

[jdinasia]

Israel has PLENTY of evidence of actual and obvious anti-Semitism to point to. They don't really need to make things up.

Yet quite often the supporters of Israel accuse anyone that criticises Israel of anti-Semitism. I notice it most when someone uses all CAPS.

I look forward to a time when Israel lives within its borders as initially established, and stops occupying Palestine.

[Ulysses G.]

I look forward to a time when Israel lives within its borders as initially established, and stops occupying Palestine.

All the Palestinians had to do was accept those borders in the first place, instead of declaring war on Israel and refusing any attempt to make peace for 66 years, but they DIDN'T and Hamas - half of the unity government - STILL refuse to recognize Israel to this day.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-denies-group-could-recognize-israel/

[Jingthing]

Israel has PLENTY of evidence of actual and obvious anti-Semitism to point to. They don't really need to make things up.

Yet quite often the supporters of Israel accuse anyone that criticises Israel of anti-Semitism. I notice it most when someone uses all CAPS.

I look forward to a time when Israel lives within its borders as initially established, and stops occupying Palestine.

It takes two to tango. Your rhetoric suggests you think only Israel is the blame for this failure. Not buying that.

[dexterm]

I look forward to a time when Israel lives within its borders as initially established, and stops occupying Palestine.

All the Palestinians had to do was accept those borders in the first place, instead of declaring war on Israel and refusing any attempt to make peace for 66 years, but they DIDN'T and Hamas - half of the unity government - STILL refuse to recognize Israel to this day.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-denies-group-could-recognize-israel/

Wow...4 myths in one sentence.

Why would Palestinians agree to a partition plan (without being asked) giving half their land to a group of illegal Jewish immigrants who formed a mere 11% of the population and owned only 5% of the land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#Land_ownership

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine

Israel started the 48 war

It was Israel who began the war by violating the 1947 partition plan and ethnically cleansing Palestinians. Jews had occupied most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948, that was even before the end of the British mandate.

The Jewish historian Avi Shlaim ridiculed your myth in his book "the Iron Wall"...."This popular-heroic-moralistic version of the 1948 war has been used extensively in Israeli propaganda and is still taught in Israeli schools. It is a prime example of the use of a nationalistic version of history in the process of nation building. In a very real sense history is the propaganda of the victors, and the history of the 1948 war is no exception."

A peace agreement with Israel has been on the table for years now...all Israel has to do is a few land swaps for 67 borders, a compromise over Jerusalem, and compensation for Palestinian refugees (the world community would pay that)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

All Israel does is build more colonies on the West Bank, provoke wars with Gazans, and provoke riots with Palestinians by pandering to nut job fanatical Jews who want to destroy Al Aqsa mosque.

Hamas (a minority anyway) has many times agreed to accept Israel and adhere to an indefinite truce. so long as Israel accepts Palestine within the 67 borders.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/haniyeh-hamas-willing-to-accept-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders-1.256915

The question is ..will Israel accept a Palestinian state within the 67 borders?

Israel doesn’t want peace it just wants a managed conflict while they grab more land.

Edited November 12, 2014 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

I look forward to a time when Israel lives within its borders as initially established, and stops occupying Palestine.

All the Palestinians had to do was accept those borders in the first place, instead of declaring war on Israel and refusing any attempt to make peace for 66 years, but they DIDN'T and Hamas - half of the unity government - STILL refuse to recognize Israel to this day.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-denies-group-could-recognize-israel/

Wow...4 myths in one sentence.

Why would Palestinians agree to a partition plan (without being asked) giving half their land to a group of illegal Jewish immigrants who formed a mere 11% of the population and owned only 5% of the land.

Your usual fabrications are well documentted. The dexterm version of history. Luckily, these lies have been exposed repeatedly with plenty of evidence to prove that you just make things up. I don't need to bother again with most of your fallacious claims and links that do not even support what you have said. The Jews had 32% of the population before the war just to start with and the Palestinian Arabs owned very little land either. It was owned by rich absentee landlords in Damascus, Cairo and Beirut - as you well know.

Claiming that Israel started the War of Independence is just plain absurd, but they certainly did WIN it. .

Over the next few days, contingents of four of the seven countries of the Arab League at that time, namely Egypt, Iraq, Transjordan, and Syria, invaded territory in the former British Mandate of Palestine and fought the Israelis. They were supported by the Arab Liberation Army and corps of volunteers from Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Yemen. The Arab armies launched a simultaneous offensive on all fronts, Egypt forces invaded froOverm south, Jordanian and Iraqi forces invaded from east, while Syrian forces invaded from north. Co-operation among the various Arab armies was poor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war

Jamal Husseini told the UN Security Council on April 16, 1948:

"The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight."

More lies exposed:

Hamas: We will never recognize Israel

Islamic movement, previously mum on reconciliation, says it may sue Washington Post for reporting it is set to soften its stance

By Elhanan Miller April 27, 2014

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-denies-group-could-recognize-israel/

Edited November 12, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[jdinasia]

Has anyone seen this week's New Yorker?

Where the President of Israel is shocked that people object to new settlements? Where he claims all the territory from the river to the sea?

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/17/one-state-reality

"Reuven (Ruvi) Rivlin, the new President of Israel, is ardently opposed to the establishment of a Palestinian state. He is instead a proponent of Greater Israel, one Jewish state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. He professes to be mystified that anyone should object to the continued construction of Jewish settlements in the West Bank: “It can’t be ‘occupied territory’ if the land is your own.”

One poster claims it is genocidal rhetoric when HAMAS says this. Isn't it genocidal rhetoric when Israel says it?

[Ulysses G.]

Interesting article. He is no bigot and in no way advocates "genocide". That is a lie. He has right to his opinion and - even though I favor a two state solution - he might be correct, considering the fact the Palestinians refuse to make peace and recognize Israel as a Jewish state and have refused for many decades.

Because of his conservative bona fides, Rivlin cannot easily be dismissed. “Rivlin may turn out to be the most influential President in Israeli history,” Avishai Margalit, a liberal philosopher and a founder of Peace Now, told me. “He is a true believer but genuinely non-racist, not merely tolerant. He has sincere respect for the Arabs, which is so rare in so many circles.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/17/one-state-reality

Edited November 12, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[jdinasia]

On topic, he defends the illegal settlements.

I don't make the case that it is genocidal. JingThing does that.

[Scott]

Posts have been removed. This thread is about the UN criticizing Israel for New Settlements. The thread isn't about how terrible the Palestinians are and how they deserve it.

Stay on topic.

[dexterm]

Yes, thats an interesting article in the New Yorker.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/17/one-state-reality

Israel seems to be sleep walking into a one state solution if they are not prepared to give up their settlements or at least swap equivalent land for them. But Im sure Netanyahu has a plan..just curious what it is?

What are the options?

1. A unilateral declaration that the wall is Israels new border but connected by roads to various Israeli colonies through a patchwork of Palestinian Bantustans...the Palestinians would simply refuse to accept that. The world would not accept that either, with more countries coming out to recognize Palestine within the 67 borders.

2. The Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman route: Wholesale ethnic cleansing of 4 million Palestinians from the West Bank into Jordan, plus any Israeli Arabs who wont swear allegiance to the Jewish State of Israel. The world would definitely not accept that and may result in a serious escalation of the conflict world wide.

3. A sensible 2 state solution based on 67 borders and Barak and Olmerts 2000 and 2008 plans. 100% global and Arab recognition.

One thing I am certain of is that one day maybe decades from now Israelis and Palestinians will be so intertwined through transmigration that we wouldnt be able to tell them apart. They are geographic neighbors for eternity and people eventually intermingle. Thats the way the world evolves.

And this thread if it survives in cyberspace will be pored over with amusement by future students of history.

Edited November 12, 2014 by dexterm

[Jay Sata]

The settlements breed resentment on the part of the local Palestinians who as I have said before see people displacing them that are not local Israelis.

The woman killed a few days ago was a South African immigrant. She has no more right to be there than stupid kids who leave the UK to fight in Syria with the same consequences.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Jingthing]

The settlements breed resentment on the part of the local Palestinians who as I have said before are not local Israelis.

The woman killed a few days ago was a South African immigrant. She has no more right to be there than stupid kids who leave the UK to fight in Syria with the same consequences.

Jewish people are indigenous to the region. Yes there are border disputes now ... but Jews are not "colonizers" in Israel but rather the ORIGINAL people. Painting Jews who have been oppressed as the "other" and non-white for thousands of years in the diaspora as white colonizers is absurd. It shows a simple mindedness about what is actually a very complex situation. Basically Israel demonizers don't really believe Jews belong in ANY of Israel, and they are definitely wrong. Again: Jewish people are indigenous to the region.

Nothing at all like when white Belgians brutally colonized Africa. The Belgians did not COME from Africa! They were ONLY there to rape the land and the people. They didn't come to Africa and revive their ancient Belgian language which came from Africa because they had NO connection to that land at all.

You can push the big lie that there isn't a special relationship between Jewish people and the land of Israel, a real and very strong historically verifiable relationship all you want and you might convince some uninformed people even, but it isn't true. The Zionist movement is unique and in our times it now means the state of Israel.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

What amazes me is you admire Israel and the foreign migrants colonising the occupied territories so much but choose to live in Thailand!

[Jingthing]

What amazes me is you admire Israel and the foreign migrants colonising the occupied territories so much but choose to live in Thailand!

The topic of my personal choices in life really does not belong here. On the West Bank settlements issue, you're flaming me (again) putting words and thoughts in my mouth that I never said. I have said many times that expansion of the west bank settlements is not helpful to any potential two state solution peace process (which I still perhaps naively support and think MIGHT still be possible). I do realize there may never be a two state solution ... but I do hope some kind of peaceful resolution can happen that allows Jews and Arabs to live in that region in peace with of course Israel remaining a state with a dominant Jewish character. Not sure of the eventual borders ... I'm not Bill Clinton.

I do disagree and am offended by your Israel demonization rhetoric. I do not buy your "progressive" line that Jews are white foreign invaders in Israel. Again, Jewish people are INDIGENOUS to the region. No, that doesn't mean all Jews in the world must or should live there but it does support the existence of Israel as a state with a dominant Jewish character.

The question of are Jews white is an interesting one. The perception of Jews as white or not changes over time. Obviously Ethiopian and Chinese Jews aren't white, but even not so many decades ago in the U.S. (the second largest current Jewish population in the world) Jews were not classified socially as white. But neither were Irish ... proving such social classifications are complicated.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jay Sata]

I am not demonising Israel.

The Israeli government manage to do that quite well on the world stage hence 70% of nations supporting Palestine and condemning the colonisation of the West Bank by foreigners.

[Jingthing]

I am not demonising Israel.

...

​Could have fooled me!

[Jingthing]

Bottom line, Israel is holding on to a not wonderful "status quo" for the time being ... but I doubt there are many people on any side that really believes this current status quo won't be changing sometime in the future. How and when exactly? I have no idea.